153433 réponses à ce sujet

[Siha]

But still, I guess you have low expectations about how creative people can get on such subject, and I personally think Bioware has the talent, the insight and the tact to drop such a story in ways that could still make up for a wonderfully handled one.

...

Although I can't deny the "J" in my INFJ (for whatever that's worth, probably not much), that is not who I am still. Not making my point understood being frustrating to me, I'm trying to learn how to engage in debates that matter to me, in less confrontational/offending ways.

 

Rather not that, I see it from a purely technical point of view. They cannot allow too many diverging world states because this cannot be handled anymore in a digital game. It's not like pen & paper RPG where you are all free. BW must make cutscenes, program different options, hold all those variables and so on. If you allow two completely different paths, like the Witcher 2 does, you must make two different games. And if you allow too many different paths you must make too many different games. If we speak about something as mind-blowing as the choice to dismantle religion or not, we end up with two completely opposing world states. I see no technical possibility to allow for that, not in a game the size of DA with as many potentially big decisions. The Witcher is much shorter, I can play both paths in 3 days, that's impossible with DA. Hence, I fear they are forced to stick to the more conventional side.

Do I think they have talented writers and developers? Oh yes.

And because I approach it from this point of view, I have never been bothered by the fact that BW decisions are more makeup than anything. In the end it does not matter what you decide, the character will be back again if you kill him or not, the faith will be restored if you went berserk in the Temple of Sacred Ashes or not, and so on. But I don't know how they could handle it differently, and so I am not one of those who complain about it.

 

Frankly, I wish you had expressed your deliberate approach right away, instead of only showing the schadenfreude and keeping your thoughts to yourself. You can have debate here, even be controversial, without (potentially) hurting the feelings of others. But maybe I am being SJW now.

 

People here often bring up the personality type. I was classified INTJ and I have no idea what that is supposed to say about me. I don't even look like Putin. And I know how to laugh. I find an equal amount of traits from all personality types in me when reading those descriptions. I don't really think it has anything to do with how we argue here. If it did, the internet might require everybody to include a small personal instruction manual in the signature, "INTJ - limit caffeine intake, stay away from discrimination, don't feed the gremlin".

By all means, don't try to adapt based on me or others here. Do your thing (imagine me saying that with an Isaac Hayes hum).

 

On topic: Solas might be INTJ, too. Or INFJ. Or ISTJ. Something with an I in the beginning.

[Maria13]

I don't think that's the reason, tbh Most public Spanish universities are not Catholic and the majority of professors are not from the Opus Dei (probably there's someone, but certainly not most of them) Maybe that's true for private universities. The main reason I think is what Siha said: because psychoanalysis is not scientifically validated, and the emphasis is on scientific theories.

 

 

Well, I disagree, I know most public universities are not "officially" Catholic in Spain because I went to one for five years! Sure I was there in the early 80s but you must agree that under Franco  the official religion of Spain was the Catholic religion and the forty years that the dictatorship was in place meant that Catholic influence had permeated all levels of society and was particularly prevalent in academia...  

 

BTW I don't think you can really describe film or art criticism as "scientific" or requiring "scientific validation"...

[drake2511]

What's a Solas?

It's a creature that wanders the fade, it's common to find it asleep in ancient ruins, covered in spiders. The rare times it wakes up, it usually causes world-ending disasters and it despises tea. If you get too close, it usually uses his puppy eyes to bait you, before breaking your heart and stomping on it. Multiple times.

It is rare to encounter, but someone managed to catch it on camera. A member of the Lavellan clan was a victim of it's heart breaking tecnique, it left her with some weird apology, but she was determined to get some answers. She slept in ancient ruins to look for it in the fade, until one day she finally found it.
They could only share a brief moment.

Here is the report:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

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[Vorathrad]

I happen to like Jung's theories better than Freud's but I'll be the first to admit I'm an artist and a storyteller first with absolutely no background in psychology (unlike your boyfriend or Siha! ) . My love for Jung stems from my passionate love for Joseph Campbell whose monomyth concept drew heavily from Jung's collective unconscious and archetypes. 
On topic: Archetypes! Literary structure and comparison of trickster gods like Fen'Harel and the implications of "the shadow" in the Tower Card! Solasssss.

It really does sound interesting from the study of mythology and narrative pov. Do you know any online resources that can give a taste of Campbell's theories and you may pls pls share? I can't grab another book right now but I want to know moar (Maybe I should just start with wikipedia)

I love what they did with Fen'Harel: I'm not very familiar with trickster archetypes, but I like how they appear to twist them and their own lore at the same time with what we learn about Solas and the rest of the pantheon.

[Avejajed]

Every time I take that test (the personality one) I get a different result. I'm afraid of what that means.

[Siha]

Every time I take that test (the personality one) I get a different result. I'm afraid of what that means.

 

Wacko... 

 

On-topic: Solas

[Colonelkillabee]

Thank you for the offer, really, but if I decided to adopt an agnostic position on religion, it very well means that I've spent a long time considering how I'd react, in a very wide range of different options already. Whatever the news might be, I'd welcome it with open arms, as it'll surely open a new door that will leads towards more questions and thirst for understanding, and I fare quite well with unanswered questions. I doubt humanity will ever cease to have unanswered questions, it's how it deals with them, that sometimes baffles me.

If so, then you should be aware that the religious fight doubt every day and consider the possibility of there being no god, as much as you have considered there being one. I know this especially as I used to be agnostic. If humanity will never not have unanswered questions, then how can one be arrogant as you admitted you were? Arrogance assumes that you know something we don't, which quite simply isn't true.

[Vorathrad]

Well, I disagree, I know most public universities are not "officially" Catholic in Spain because I went to one for five years! Sure I was there in the early 80s but you must agree that under Franco  the official religion of Spain was the Catholic religion and the forty years that the dictatorship was in place meant that Catholic influence had permeated all levels of society and was particularly prevalent in academia...  
 
BTW I don't think you can really describe film or art criticism as "scientific" or requiring "scientific validation"...

Well yes, but things have changed since the times of Franco (fortunately) I went to the university in the early 2000s and my bf a bit later, and I can say that there were not Catholic influences in academic approach.

When speaking about scientifically validated theories I meant psychological ones, not literary criticism, maybe my wording was a bit confusing.

[R2s Muse]

"There is no sorrow, there is no heart!"
Is how I've heard others translate it.
Basically, "I'm not sad! You meant nothing to me! I'm not your love, you dirt-bag! You were nothing to me, you hear?!"

aha! Ok that makes sense. Thanks. 'There was no love there anyway.' Damn, son. Altho I guess in one of the alternates options, I love that you can force him to admit he doesn't care and he won't. Sniff sniff. Man, still processing how horrible that scene was.

So... Do you think ( you, the Solasians in general) he planned on telling you how much you mean to him *because* he was intending to break up with you? Or did he decide on the fly during the kiss and romantic music "oh ****, too intense, bad idea. Gotta end it." ??

[Delphine]

-Snip-

 

I agree about the technicality of it, it'll make for a much longer development time, or for a drop in aesthetic, whichever that might be, if they actually wanted to make decisions that truly mattered in the long run. The video game industry is still such a young one, so there might be hope to see such game being created in a few years, seeing how games have evolved already in a such short amount of time. So me speculating in that being available in a few years, might be just speculation anymore. But I agree that right now, this is still very limited.
I actually don't mind that much that most my decisions don't matter, I just like to make scenarios about what could be done, and what impact they could have on future games, on the universe you're playing in, on the characters, etc. All in all, I enjoy Bioware games as greatly interactive movies. Meaning that despite whatever decisions I might take, I'm still under the complete will of the writers and story-makers, and I'm ok with that, I like to see where they wanna bring us, and how they want us compelled by what they write.

 

As for the mention of personality type, like I said, it probably isn't worth much. Nobody knows how much of it relies on the Barnum effect anyway, but I still found it interesting how their description of "judging" fits me, in some ways.

As for Solas, after reading this thread at length, I tend to believe he leans on the INTP type. But that's probably because experience told me I tend to have a thing for INTPs, so not really relevant for that matter.
 

[Vorathrad]

So... Do you think ( you, the Solasians in general) he planned on telling you how much you mean to him *because* he was intending to break up with you? Or did he decide on the fly during the kiss and romantic music "oh ****, too intense, bad idea. Gotta end it." ??

According to Patrick Weekes interview in I-can't-remember-the-name, Solas planned to tell Lavellan the truth at that moment but couldn't find the courage to do so. I think he realised that if he couldn't tell her the truth, he had to go back to his solitary path and thus end the relationship then and there.

[Avejajed]

Wacko...

On-topic: Solas

I'll allow it only because I love you and also because you're following the rules so nicely.

[Caddius]

 

It really does sound interesting from the study of mythology and narrative pov. Do you know any online resources that can give a taste of Campbell's theories and you may pls pls share? I can't grab another book right now but I want to know moar (Maybe I should just start with wikipedia)

I love what they did with Fen'Harel: I'm not very familiar with trickster archetypes, but I like how they appear to twist them and their own lore at the same time with what we learn about Solas and the rest of the pantheon.

I was also identified as INTJ.

It's, um, more accurate at times than I would like. 

And while I don't look like Putin, (He's basically what happens if Dobby and a KGB bear got it on) I do have that same bizarre fondness for Peter the Great.

As for Campbell:

http://skepticfiles....heist2/hero.htm

I adore Extra Credits.

Offhand, the matriarchal societies I can think of were the Iroquois Confederacy, whose government was an inspiration for the US Constitution, and various Polynesian tribes. Sadly, I'm not up to speed enough to go full ramble on their mythologies.   I believe the Iroquois had War Chiefs as elected leaders who were ruled by the Women's Council. Again, don't take my word for it, I'm rusty.

It's worth noting that steppe nomads also had more rights for women, as did Celtic and German women. The Celts, I know, varied heavily, from bordering on full equality between the sexes, to conditions even worse than the Greeco-Roman world. (To their credit, there were eras when upper-class women at least had quite a good time in Rome.)

[BoscoBread]

aha! Ok that makes sense. Thanks. 'There was no love there anyway.' Damn, son. Altho I guess in one of the alternates options, I love that you can force him to admit he doesn't care and he won't. Sniff sniff. Man, still processing how horrible that scene was.

So... Do you think ( you, the Solasians in general) he planned on telling you how much you mean to him *because* he was intending to break up with you? Or did he decide on the fly during the kiss and romantic music "oh ****, too intense, bad idea. Gotta end it." ??

I think it's also been interpreted as "You're not sorry.  You have no heart". 

 

On the 2nd part - No. It was confirmed by Weekes(his writer) that he intended on telling you everything and presumably let you decide what you wanted to do. He chickened out so he tells you about the vallaslin instead.  However, when he kisses you, he was just going to stay. He was going to abandon his cause and just be "Solas".  He realizes, though, that he could never betray himself like that so he leaves. 

[Kappa Neko]

But maybe I am being SJW now.

Bioware is so proud of you, Siha.

 

 

I think Kappa meant it a bit different.

 

*snip*

Yes, that's how I meant it. Thanks for speaking on my behalf while I was away having my dignity stolen in physiotherapy. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough.

[Delphine]

If so, then you should be aware that the religious fight doubt every day and consider the possibility of there being no god, as much as you have considered there being one. I know this especially as I used to be agnostic. If humanity will never have unanswered questions, then how can one be arrogant as you admitted you were? Arrogance assumes that you know something we don't, which quite simply isn't true.

 

Because one placing human-made explanations of such unanswered questions above anything else, is to me, an act of arrogance as well, and one I have difficulties to cope with.

As Humans, we are very limited to begin with. Our brain, even though a magnificent thing, is limited. Our senses, sight, touch, hearing, and whichever we have to interact with the world we live in, are limited. Everything we perceive, any electrical signs that goes in and out of our brain, is just pure plain and simple interpretation, our entire reality being made by interpretations of perceived signals.

Nothing is "real", nothing is THE truth, because everyone perceives, understands and feels in their own ways. My arrogance is merely a knee-jerk response, to the much bigger arrogance that most human beings have about their perceived reality. We are so limited in our understanding of the universe, be it on the microscopic, or macroscopic levels, that people wanting to explain it in certain ways that they see fit, and impose it to the rest of us, irritates me greatly.

 

How could someone stand up, and dare to say they know the truth? What truth is it, besides theirs? Not mine, definitely.

Sadly, that's how I feel most religions interact. They pretend to know a truth, and that their truth is better than the next one, and they'll go at length to pretend their truth is indeed what they claim it is.

 

The human body is at once a magnificent machine and ridiculously limited tool. So when humans gather and pretend, that with the limited tool that their body is, they know the truth, I can't help but cringe. Although, that can be said about atheists being fiercely sure that gods don't exist at all. Except that atheists have yet to oppress people in History with their own truth, so I don't tend to judge them as harshly.

[Illyria]

aha! Ok that makes sense. Thanks. 'There was no love there anyway.' Damn, son. Altho I guess in one of the alternates options, I love that you can force him to admit he doesn't care and he won't. Sniff sniff. Man, still processing how horrible that scene was.

So... Do you think ( you, the Solasians in general) he planned on telling you how much you mean to him *because* he was intending to break up with you? Or did he decide on the fly during the kiss and romantic music "oh ****, too intense, bad idea. Gotta end it." ??

 

He was never planning on breaking up with her.  He was planning on telling her the actual truth about himself and his misson and the orb and everything.  He lost his nerve at the last moment and told her about the vallaslin instead and then realised that he couldn't let go of his misson for Lavellan and breaks up with her.

[Mirielle]

Is it wrong that part of the reason I want a DA game set in Tevinter is for the outfits? I want to play as a DA hero who is rocking the most OTT Tevinter garb they can find. Something that flows behind them when they come striding into a room. And all in black. Just bring me the smexy black attire.

Y'know, for someone as powerful as the Inquisitor, they sure don't dress it. Needs more swishing cape and spikey bits.

 

I think I may have just birthed a new obsession here. I had no idea I cared so much about clothing. 

I so want Arlathan to be insane levels of outfit as well. All the colours and jewels and... yeah, I seem to just be flat out picturing this now..

Spoiler

ooooh yesssssssssssssssssssssssss! lots of swishy capes **gotta make the swissssshhhhhh noise** Lots of throwing it behind you as you stride into and out of a room.........Hmmmmmmmmm come on, some arty farty type on here PLEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE draw me some of that Pwitty pwease??

[Moondreamer01]

I think it's also been interpreted as "You're not sorry.  You have no heart". 

 

On the 2nd part - No. It was confirmed by Weekes(his writer) that he intended on telling you everything and presumably let you decide what you wanted to do. He chickened out so he tells you about the vallaslin instead.  However, when he kisses you, he was just going to stay. He was going to abandon his cause and just be "Solas".  He realizes, though, that he could never betray himself like that so he leaves. 

 

There is a moment, just after he kisses you, where his expression falls. He goes from happy in -the-moment to decided to end it in about 2 seconds. You can see Lavellan react to the change and look at him questionningly. I think it's in those two seconds that Solas realizes that he has to break it off. Is it because he can't continue to lie to her, or because he realizes that his plan will put her in danger if he doesn't leave, or else because he decides his plan (whatever it is) IS more important than her, we'll probably only know when we meet him again. In any case, I thought that the animation, the subtle change of his expression, was quite brilliant in that scene.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[RebbyWriter]

I stay away from Joseph Campbell when I am writing....Far, far, away. The Hero's Journey has been done so many times that I breathed a sigh of relief when I was able to look at the checklist and not have some of his criteria filled. I am not alone in this opinion, btw. I mean, it was a good idea it's just become the 'go to' for holly wood which, to me, gives it less weight. There are so many more stories (despite what people might tell you!) Why do we keep going back to this one?

 

I could go on all day about writing, myth, symbolism, and archetypes but it is far too early for me to do that. I haven't even grabbed my daily dose of caffeine. lol

 

On topic: This is why I like Solas. He is not a clear villain, nor is he a "good guy." He is a "gray" character, which is uncommon in storytelling.

[Caddius]

 

How could someone stand up, and dare to say they know the truth? What truth is it, besides theirs? Not mine, definitely.

Sadly, that how I feel most religions interact. They pretend to know a truth, and that their truth is better than the next one, and they'll go at length to pretend their truth is indeed what they claim it is.

 

The human body is at once a magnificent machine and ridiculously limited tool. So when humans gather and pretend, that with the limited tool that their body is, they know the truth, I can't help but cringe. Although, that can be said about atheists being fiercely sure that gods don't exist at all. Except that atheists have yet to oppress people in History with their own truth, so I don't tend to judge them as harshly.

Stalin and Mao both led massive persecution of theists while attempting to replace the old religions with atheistic cults of personality. Both of these were largely political concerns, combined with Communist rhetoric about religion being a tool of the old oppressors.

It's not religion that I hold in contempt, it's dogma. The arrogance that you're completely right, and that this knowledge justifies everything you do to other people, because you know what's better for them than they do.

Now, in small doses, I can get behind that line of thinking. Required vaccines, for example. Employees must wash hands. But whether it's Nazism, or a State (Insert Any View on Religion here), I will stand against the crazy bottom line of that way of thinking.

I think it bears mentioning that, while I don't know much about Colonel Killabee's beliefs, I've gotten the impression that he's very much a tried and true Christian, rather than the 'I was raised Catholic, so I guess I sorta believe in God. Kinda," type. He was an agnostic and he's converted, which implies a lot of thought went into his decision. While I try not to dismiss other people's religion, I can't help but like the ones who have clearly had their doubts but thought hard about this part of their life a lot more.

Likewise, I was a Christian, which I went after myself without parental influence, then I began to doubt, and drifted into experimenting with all of religion at once, and finally became an angry atheist, and have 'matured', if I dare use that word at my age, into an agnostic when it comes to the divine in general, and an atheist when it comes to all the gods of man I've learned about so far. I've put a lot of thought into it.

I'm of the opinion that almost everyone is an atheist to some extent. By nature, Christians do not worship Thor. Nor do they worship Krishna. I just happen to not believe in their god as well. No harm done.

[Colonelkillabee]

snip

 

It is true that religious individuals act as if they know the truth, and that everyone else is wrong, but this is hardly a religious thing. Scientists do this as well until they are proven false later. Mainly with theories, where one has to be willing to step out of his paradigm in order to accept and consider another's paradigm. Which even in the scientific world does not always happen until someone has proven a theory to be true, and it is more than just basic theory, but a law.

 

Now, this is true of some religious people, but not all. It's called a "faith" for a reason, and if your arrogance comes from a reaction to other's arrogance and you are self aware enough to know that, then you should know better and refrain from acting out because of the mindset of others.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right and all that jazz.

[BoscoBread]

There is a moment, just after he kisses you, where his expression falls. He goes from happy in -the-moment to decided to end it in about 2 seconds. You can see Lavellan react to the change and look at him questionningly. I think it's in those two seconds that Solas realizes that he has to break it off. Is it because he can't continue to lie to her, or because he realizes that his plan will put her in danger if he doesn't leave, or else because he decides his plan (whatever it is) IS more important than her, we'll probably only know when we meet him again. In any case, I thought that the animation, the subtle change of his expression, was quite brilliant in that scene.

Yeah, that scene was brilliantly animated. So much was said in just the facial expression.  You can see his heart dying..  The first time I went through it...so upsetting.  I go with what Weekes said - Solas' mission/altruism is so core to who he is as a person that he could never just abandon it for a relationship.  I think if he stayed he knows he wouldn't have been free of guilt, so he had to leave. 

[Siha]

I'll allow it only because I love you and also because you're following the rules so nicely.

 

Yes, I am working so hard on this!

On-topic and off-topic: Who am I? And if so, how many?

 

Bioware is so proud of you, Siha.

 

Yes, that's how I meant it. Thanks for speaking on my behalf

 

I hope I did not cross a line or so...  I have such a tendency of claiming the spotlight recently.