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[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[vierrae]

I'm re-watching The Labyrinth right now. And I'm so going to ship Dirthamen-Jareth thing. The beeest!

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[Mims]

I'll admit, I really like that Solas would break up with Lavellan rather than just continue on lying to her. I think he possibly takes too much responsibility as far as whatever his mission goes...but he probably can't just abandon it fullstop either. He can't pretend to be just some ordinary guy named Solas forever. 

 

I assume if it is brought up in DLC, at some point the Inquisitor is going to find out. I am curious as to whether or not Solas will be the one to reveal who he is [either directly by telling or just allowing himself to be seen as Fen'Harel], or if he'll continue to attempt to protect the secret and it will be someone else who reveals it. 

 

edit: ooh, my hermit card shirt shipped. 

[Vorathrad]

Thank you Caddius and Liz! I have to run to my French course (and beyond! Ahem sorry) If you have any interesting conversations while I'm gone, keep them in a reasonable number of pages to catch up ^^

[BoscoBread]

Alright! This is a thing I can do. Basically, in short, Campbell analyzed a staggering amount of myths from cultures all over the world. His research led him to propose a concept called, "The Hero's Journey." A path/ story structure the hero within a narrative must undergo. The fascinating thing about the Hero's Journey as a concept is how well it stands up in the face of cultural differences and geological separation. The narrative structure is practically ubiquitous throughout the globe.

Here's a short reference sheet from the University of Berkeley detailing the steps or stages of the Hero's Journey. Another, more indepth summary with examples from popular media/ literature.



ON TOPIC: Honestly, when seen in chart form... Dragon Age: Inquisition DOES NOT complete the Hero's Journey. By.. pretty much any means. I'd say Inquisition ends with Meeting the Goddess (Flemythal in the Fade) and Temptation (the Wyvern's Nest scene from Solas' point of view being the best example of it) and the next step is "Atonement with the Father."

I suppose the confrontation with Corypheus could be construed as the "father figure who has life and death power" but I'd sooner see that as referential to Fen'Harel and/ or the rest of the glitterotica Elvhen pantheon. They, far more than Corypheus (particularly for an elven inquisitor), hold the ultimate power in their life/ the lives of Thedas. We will soon have to confront them or join their cause.

Indication for Wolf Hunt and other significant story DLC OR a return to the Inquisitor as PC based off of the Hero's Journey? EXTREMELY HIGH.

We have yet to obtain the boon (what we believed it to be - the orb - was destroyed and in that way our mission remains incomplete) and we truly haven't confronted our antagonist. We likewise haven't completed our personal transformation, obtained enlightenment, or returned home. Much less the final two stages!
 

 Interesting.  I'm curious as to what the "temptation" would be since the orb is gone.  You already have the most powerful magic in Thedas. I mean, really, what else could you want.  I'm wondering if it will be abuse of the mark - like using it to enter the Fade whenever you want. I feel like that could cause problems.

 

Imma be real though, this sounds like A LOT of work for my lazy bones Lavellan.  I just want to go on a journey banging all the hot elves in Thedas.  Where does that fit in in the chart.

[deedylovescake]

 

Imma be real though, this sounds like A LOT of work for my lazy bones Lavellan.  I just want to go on a journey banging all the hot elves in Thedas.  Where does that fit in in the chart.

Yes let's make our own chart..with blackjack..and hookers.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[R2s Muse]

According to Patrick Weekes interview in I-can't-remember-the-name, Solas planned to tell Lavellan the truth at that moment but couldn't find the courage to do so. I think he realised that if he couldn't tell her the truth, he had to go back to his solitary path and thus end the relationship then and there.

 

I think it's also been interpreted as "You're not sorry.  You have no heart". 

 

On the 2nd part - No. It was confirmed by Weekes(his writer) that he intended on telling you everything and presumably let you decide what you wanted to do. He chickened out so he tells you about the vallaslin instead.  However, when he kisses you, he was just going to stay. He was going to abandon his cause and just be "Solas".  He realizes, though, that he could never betray himself like that so he leaves. 

He was never planning on breaking up with her.  He was planning on telling her the actual truth about himself and his misson and the orb and everything.  He lost his nerve at the last moment and told her about the vallaslin instead and then realised that he couldn't let go of his misson for Lavellan and breaks up with her.

Ah, ok. I did read that PWeekes said that, weeks ago accidentally, so I was watching for it. I guess the VA didn't know, so I couldn't see any real,  I dunno, hesitation when he shifts to the Vallaslin ("your face"). I guess I still couldn't tell exactly when he changed his mind. 

[deedylovescake]

I agree I can respect the "I cant tell you the truth and I cant lie to you so we just have to stop" logic. It's hard for me to decide whether or not he really cant tell the truth though without knowing what his plans are/what he thinks he has to do. It's early my brain isn't awake yet...I guess I'm just saying I need more info before I can really subscribe to his decision to break it off as being a good idea...

[Mirielle]

Lizasauraus **faints**

[Mirielle]

Im at work and now all I can think of are Elvhen gods, body glitter and sexy fun.....Oh and feathers/

Hmm, can I bring the glue 'cause those items make me think...collage.......lol

[deedylovescake]

Ah, ok. I did read that PWeekes said that, weeks ago accidentally, so I was watching for it. I guess the VA didn't know, so I couldn't see any real,  I dunno, hesitation when he shifts to the Vallaslin ("your face"). I guess I still couldn't tell exactly when he changed his mind. 

Same interview actually Weekes points out this very slight break in Solas' voice when he says "truth" right before he switches to the vallaslin. It is SUPER subtle but it is there.

[Caddius]

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that Joseph Campbell researched mythology. He didn't state that all literature MUST follow this structure or it will fail. He looked at fables, folk tales, legends with ancient origin to see how storytelling and narrative structure began.

I'm certainly not, and neither do I believe he would have, suggested there is only one way to tell a story. Simply that there tends to be a pattern heroes follow in SOME way. Even if you were going to write a sit-com episode, your character would have to leave the threshold of their ordinary world/ order to be confronted with the primary conflict. 

Going off of the reluctance to see the same story hashed over and over:

For the Ancient Greeks, in their plays, making an original story was seen as cheating. They thought it took true talent to take a story everyone knew by heart since they were ten, and make it gut-wrenching, funny, and spine-tingling in new ways. Euripides in particular was criticized with it, but because Euripides was one of the original playwright gangster punk daddies* he got away with it.

*This is what happens when I stay up ridiculously late and don't drink coffee.

[Maria13]

Since we are into graphs...

 

The uncanny valley, a graph representing what we may find creepy or uncanny and why, elaborated by Japanese roboticist Masahiro Mori, based loosely related to Freud's essay "The Uncanny":

 

[BoscoBread]

I would say that the temptation, at least for Solas on HIS journey is Lavellan. Scene in the Wyvern Den.

For the inquisitor? I would say it's the end of the Well of Sorrows. Solas himself asks you what you're going to do once Corypheus is defeated. He's pointedly asking you what you plan to do with your power and warns you of the temptation to misuse it. (Yet another reason why I love the Envy demon scene - it's a fabulous indication of what you could become should you succumb to the temptation of power/ self-righteousness).

 

Hmmm... See, i think we're going to run into all the sexy elvhen glitterotica gods VERY soon. Then we can start bedding all the ancinet elvhen men in Thedas. I'd classify that as the ultimate boon. We might refuse to return to the real world after the mind blowing sexy times, but perhaps try to fly back to reality with our sexy gods in tow. This itself might be a dangerous move, but should we persevere, we might be able to keep them. And we will master them and ourselves physically and spiritually and be free to live with our male harem.

 

I am okay with this so long as it ends with filthy poetry, body glitter, and feathers. 

I'm so happy.  This makes me so happy.  

[tsunamitigerdragon]

Going off of the reluctance to see the same story hashed over and over:

For the Ancient Greeks, in their plays, making an original story was seen as cheating. They thought it took true talent to take a story everyone knew by heart since they were ten, and make it gut-wrenching, funny, and spine-tingling in new ways. Euripides in particular was criticized with it, but because Euripides was one of the original playwright gangster punk daddies* he got away with it.

*This is what happens when I stay up ridiculously late and don't drink coffee.

Keep talking historical literature and narratives to me.

[deedylovescake]

Since we are into graphs...

 

The uncanny valley, a graph representing what we may find creepy or uncanny and why, elaborated by Japanese roboticist Masahiro Mori, based loosely related to Freud's essay "The Uncanny":

 

oh god I love uncanny valley stuff. I love that level of creepiness over a scary monster saying boo. It's so much more disturbing!

[Delphine]

 

Spoiler

Stalin and Mao both led massive persecution of theists while attempting to replace the old religions with atheistic cults of personality. Both of these were largely political concerns, combined with Communist rhetoric about religion being a tool of the old oppressors.

It's not religion that I hold in contempt, it's dogma. The arrogance that you're completely right, and that this knowledge justifies everything you do to other people, because you know what's better for them than they do.

Now, in small doses, I can get behind that line of thinking. Required vaccines, for example. Employees must wash hands. But whether it's Nazism, or a State (Insert Any View on Religion here), I will stand against the crazy bottom line of that way of thinking.

I think it bears mentioning that, while I don't know much about Colonel Killabee's beliefs, I've gotten the impression that he's very much a tried and true Christian, rather than the 'I was raised Catholic, so I guess I sorta believe in God. Kinda," type. He was an agnostic and he's converted, which implies a lot of thought went into his decision. While I try not to dismiss other people's religion, I can't help but like the ones who have clearly had their doubts but thought hard about this part of their life a lot more.

Likewise, I was a Christian, which I went after myself without parental influence, then I began to doubt, and drifted into experimenting with all of religion at once, and finally became an angry atheist, and have 'matured', if I dare use that word at my age, into an agnostic when it comes to the divine in general, and an atheist when it comes to all the gods of man I've learned about so far. I've put a lot of thought into it.

I'm of the opinion that almost everyone is an atheist to some extent. By nature, Christians do not worship Thor. Nor do they worship Krishna. I just happen to not believe in their god as well. No harm done.

 

While I agree that Stalin & Mao tried to eradicate theists, I do not believe they were atheist, in the sense they were trying to replace god with themselves, through the cult of personality, and as such, remain a kind of religion still. One can't help but notice how North-Koreans love their leader is nothing short of real devotion that would normally be seen in highly religious persons.

Other than that, I definitely agree with what you say, I guess the dogma is more what I loath that religion itself. but again, what religion comes without one?

Also, I had no insight about Colonel's personal faith to begin with, so my point of debate has always been from a very neutral one, but I do find it interesting to have such history, and it makes me wonder what led him to that path.

And your own path doesn't differ much from mine, except I wasn't drawn to the Catholic faith by personal choice, but through my family, and I never went through an "angry atheist" phase, I directly went into agnosticism once I had finally learned its existence. Still, I found a great deal of joy studying that religion at the time, but it always was from a mythological point of view, not a religious one. I enjoyed reading the bible, just as much as I enjoy reading anything related to religions that have existed throughout times and places on Earth, it kind of fascinates me to see what humanity is capable of in that regards.

 

It is true that religious individuals act as if they know the truth, and that everyone else is wrong, but this is hardly a religious thing. Scientists do this as well until they are proven false later. Mainly with theories, where one has to be willing to step out of his paradigm in order to accept and consider another's paradigm. Which even in the scientific world does not always happen until someone has proven a theory to be true, and it is more than just basic theory, but a law.

 

Scientist KNOW the meaning of theory and it entails. Religious entities however, not so much. They take their theories and declare it "truth", that is the difference. I have yet to see scientists oppressing each other over a theory proved wrong/right, and if that ever happened, I'm most definitely sure the consequences of such act where nowhere near comparable to religious ones in the first place.

[R2s Muse]

There is a moment, just after he kisses you, where his expression falls. He goes from happy in -the-moment to decided to end it in about 2 seconds. You can see Lavellan react to the change and look at him questionningly. I think it's in those two seconds that Solas realizes that he has to break it off. Is it because he can't continue to lie to her, or because he realizes that his plan will put her in danger if he doesn't leave, or else because he decides his plan (whatever it is) IS more important than her, we'll probably only know when we meet him again. In any case, I thought that the animation, the subtle change of his expression, was quite brilliant in that scene.

Yes. That moment. That's where I could see his hesitation. So that's where I was confused about his intention with the "gift" of the truth, because it seemed to me that he seems to decide to break it off after the kiss, not so much during his rather smooth delivery of the truth.

 

But it does make sense that he only realizes on fly, following the kiss, that since he chickened out on the truth, then the end of the relationship is nigh. Especially since he's also so... remarkably romantic and relaxed at the start of the scene that it really did seem like he went into it like a date.For example, the way he's holding her hand is so sweet and hopeful. 

[BoscoBread]

I agree I can respect the "I cant tell you the truth and I cant lie to you so we just have to stop" logic. It's hard for me to decide whether or not he really cant tell the truth though without knowing what his plans are/what he thinks he has to do. It's early my brain isn't awake yet...I guess I'm just saying I need more info before I can really subscribe to his decision to break it off as being a good idea...

I don't think it's about it being bad/good.  I think that can be individually decided up to the player.  For Solas, he felt it was the "right" decision for himself and for her.  You have to remember he's thinking this through within the span of like 2 min. He doesn't have time to really think it out...which is atypical.  What he did plan, was telling you the truth. I imagine him agonizing over it for hours and thinking out exactly what he was going to say.  Trying to account for every possibile question and reaction you could have had and his response.  Then he just throws all his carefully thought plans out the window and kind of is flying by the seat of his pants.

 

I'm with Mims/Liz on this. I actually am sort of "pleased" he left instead of lying to himself and her by extension.  It would be such a massive betrayal that he wouldn't even really be HIM. I can't possibly believe he would have been happy.  It would have been miserable for both of them...at least that's my view.  For me, it's easier to justify forgiving him...in the end(unless he turns into a total psycho). 

[R2s Muse]

Same interview actually Weekes points out this very slight break in Solas' voice when he says "truth" right before he switches to the vallaslin. It is SUPER subtle but it is there.

Ah, cool. Thanks. I'll have to go look for that. The first time I introduced myself to the thread was the day that nerdappropriate interview came out, so I of course ran afoul of several spoilers and haven't had a chance to go back and listen to it on my own yet. 

 

Plus, he's so smooth at his secret identity that I suppose it makes sense that he'd switch right to the "lesser" truth since I imagine the slave markings have been bugging him. 

 

Sooooo... how interesting was it that only with the Vallaslin gone does he say "you're so beautiful"? That kinda broke my heart, imagining what he must have thought every time he looked at her while she wore them.  

 

(sorry that I'm retreading old territory for you guys! It was just so packed with heart wrenching Solasy goodness! gah!)

[RebbyWriter]

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that Joseph Campbell researched mythology. He didn't state that all literature MUST follow this structure or it will fail. He looked at fables, folk tales, legends with ancient origin to see how storytelling and narrative structure began.

I'm certainly not, and neither do I believe he would have, suggested there is only one way to tell a story. Simply that there tends to be a pattern heroes follow in SOME way. Even if you were going to write a sit-com episode, your character would have to leave the threshold of their ordinary world/ order to be confronted with the primary conflict. 

Ok. I've had some more coffee. I'm thinking a little more clearly now.

 

Just to give a bit of exposition, I have people close to me that after watching a video on Joseph Campbell, think of themselves as a bit of an expert and always try to tell me that my writing will never be "original" because there are so many stories...blah blah blah. So, I will admit to having a chip on my shoulder about the whole thing.

 

I also admit that there are elements of the Feminine Journey (which is a plot path that branches from the original Hero's Journey) that exist in the story I am doing now. If done well, the storyline doesn't matter. I just get really tired of the lack of creativity in the story world, as of late. I am in no way trying to attack anyone who enjoys that type of story. I just get sick and tired of people using Campbell's ideas as a crutch and then telling me there is no way I can be creative.

 

I have a book on Archetypes that, I think (I'm too lazy to get up and find it) are based off of his studies of mythology. The book names them after Grecian gods, anyway. Interesting read if you ever want into writing interesting characters. I'll find it on my Kindle later if anyone is interested.

 

Here's a Solas, for having to deal with my crazy

[Colonelkillabee]

Scientist KNOW the meaning of theory and it entails. Religious entities however, not so much. They take their theories and declare it "truth", that is the difference. I have yet to see scientists oppressing each other over a theory proved wrong/right, and if that ever happened, I'm most definitely sure the consequences of such act where nowhere near comparable to religious ones in the first place.

There's politics in the scientific community just like everywhere else. They know it's a theory yes, but one can still favor and dismiss theories for various reasons, reason that aren't always because others considered the theory for what it was. To get your theories recognized, it's gotta be accepted by others enough to get a grant for more research to be done in that field. You don't think people compete for these things?

 

Religious entities, the churches, aren't the religious themselves. The pope doesn't speak for me, and not everyone is the same. All you're doing is making incorrect blanket statements that don't work for everyone. I'm religious. I know what is a theory, and I know the difference between something taken by faith and something that is a fact. I am not special either.