153434 réponses à ce sujet

[Elessara]

 

I think Mythal at least understands what happened to the Dalish, since she's seen at least the last thousand years or so. So her comments make me wonder if there's something else going on, where it really is better that the Dalish don't know. I can't think of something that would be so earth-shattering as to break the identity of the elves but then again I'm not a professional writer so who knows what the DA team has going on in their plans.

 

You saying this reminds me of the Aiel from the Wheel of Time series.  They had built their entire culture around a misinterpretation of their history and when they found out the truth a lot of them just couldn't accept it.  It almost broke them as a people, as I recall.  It seems the Dalish are in a somewhat similar position.  Their culture is built around these ideas of the Creators and what the Creators and Arlathan were like ... and if they found out they were wrong.  Well, I don't think it would be pretty.  Sure some of them would be fine with it but others probably not so much.

[Rabbitonfire]

Ah yes. Let me extend a formal invite to anyone here to join our chatzy chat anytime they want. We don't always talk about Solas and it's not always busy but we're always open. Sometimes we do Solas-themed CAH and such too and I'll try to remember to post that here on the forums for anyone who wants to join.

 

Chat link:  http://us20.chatzy.com/16531445744795

Password: Lavellan

 

(also it's in my siggy)

 

_{(also, also... I'm not affiliated in any way with this and dunno what it will be like but the /r/solasmancers subreddit is hosting a CAH on Friday and you can find the info here: http://www.reddit.co...da_drinks_and/)}

 

Much un. I highly recommend Cards against humanity, such as the thedas deck.

[Caddius]

Why wouldn't Mythal help out the People?

Well, if she was in wisp form most of the time until Flemeth, Flemeth was born at the beginning of the Age after the fall of the Dales. And the Andraste theory would have it so that she tried to help them gain a new home and end their slavery by teaming up with Shartan.

I get the impression that Mythal can't act too openly for whatever reasons. She gets heroes in debt to her and uses that to manipulate history. It looks like she's gathering power. Hell, from the amount of blue light in the epilogue, I'll bet that Urthemiel isn't the first powerful soul she's snagged. (Maybe it's the other daughters? Other Old Gods? *shrug*)

I was...vexed that Mythal didn't explain things to a Lavellan any better. I appreciated Abelas's bluntness in, "Shadows wearing vallaslin. You are not my People." He's lived for thousands of years living the actual meaning of the vallaslin, I can't blame him for being sore.

Mythal was the mother guardian goddess, everything went to hell when she was murdered. She seems to hold some fondness for the Dalish, though. When she's resurrected in 2, I originally thought her comment to Merrill:

"Do you know who I am, beyond that title?"

"No."

"Then stand. The People kneel too quickly."

Was an epic burn against the Dalish that actually shocked me with how nasty it is. Now it comes across as a mother admonishing her children for being too easily impressed. 

Solas is excusable that he doesn't tell, for all the reasons other people have mentioned. What isn't excusable is holding the Dalish in contempt like he does, when his own actions had a role to play in the fall of Arlathan, the enslavement, and the fall of the Dales. Fine, some Dalish got snippy with him when he tried to reveal the truth to them. Lavellan is not them. I do appreciate that he tends to get flustered and apologized whenever you point out, "We might get it wrong, but we're trying, and we can't walk the Fade for answers like you do. You're looking down on the People for something that only you can do."

SOLAS: Right, right, Dreamers aren't a dime a dozen. *sighs*

[Sable Rhapsody]

Their culture is built around these ideas of the Creators and what the Creators and Arlathan were like ... and if they found out they were wrong.  Well, I don't think it would be pretty.  Sure some of them would be fine with it but others probably not so much.

 
It reminds me of Sera's little hissy fit over the Well of Sorrows.  Sometimes what you need to believe and what you're actually seeing/hearing are two different things, and then you have to make a very painful choice.  My Lavellan is like Solas and falls firmly on the side of painful truth, but not everyone is like that.
 

I really doubt the Dalish doctored their history, they just don't know most of it.  I assumed the reason Keeper Gisharel is the source of most Dalish lore (on our side of things) is because Ralaferin is a rare example of a Dalish clan willing to communicate freely with curious outsiders.  But Gisharel isn't the only example we have of Dalish lore sourced by outsiders.

That's true, Clan Ralaferin was generally more open and tolerant.  Maybe they didn't so much doctor it as cherrypick it unconsciously.  I mean, if you're an elven slave in the Tevinter Imperium at the height of its power, you'd rather remember the more benevolent aspects of the Creators and Arlathan in general.  And over generations, the less savory elements of Elvhenan just got lost.

[zambixi]

You saying this reminds me of the Aiel from the Wheel of Time series.  They had built their entire culture around a misinterpretation of their history and when they found out the truth a lot of them just couldn't accept it.  It almost broke them as a people, as I recall.  It seems the Dalish are in a somewhat similar position.  Their culture is built around these ideas of the Creators and what the Creators and Arlathan were like ... and if they found out they were wrong.  Well, I don't think it would be pretty.  Sure some of them would be fine with it but others probably not so much.

 

I'm thinking even worse than finding out the creators weren't nice people. Because I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think that maybe the gods had bad sides. Elgar'nan is the father and the god of vengeance and that's not exactly rosy. But... yeah I dunno. How shattering would it be to find out that your people were not only oppressed but also oppressors? Or to perhaps find out that the Dalish aren't descendents of the nobility but the slaves?

 

I still wonder if it's not something more fundamental than that though. Like finding out that the People don't encompass the current Dalish at all, or something. Maybe it's just hard for me to think that what we currently know would be that challenging because I'm not actually Dalish.

[MaidenM]

I find Solas almost telling Lavellan the truth to be both sweet and immensely frustrating.  Solas has that wonderful effect on me as a character where I want to hug him AND smash his stupid egg head into a wall.

 

I keep thinking my Lavellan will treat Solas like a romanced Jack treats Shephard in ME3. Punch in the face followed by passionate kiss. And she totally gets away with it.

[Elessara]

Why wouldn't Mythal help out the People?

Well, if she was in wisp form most of the time until Flemeth, Flemeth was born at the beginning of the Age after the fall of the Dales. And the Andraste theory would have it so that she tried to help them gain a new home and end their slavery by teaming up with Shartan.

I get the impression that Mythal can't act too openly for whatever reasons. She gets heroes in debt to her and uses that to manipulate history. It looks like she's gathering power. Hell, from the amount of blue light in the epilogue, I'll bet that Urthemiel isn't the first powerful soul she's snagged. (Maybe it's the other daughters? Other Old Gods? *shrug*)

I was...vexed that Mythal didn't explain things to a Lavellan any better. I appreciated Abelas's bluntness in, "Shadows wearing vallaslin. You are not my People." He's lived for thousands of years living the actual meaning of the vallaslin, I can't blame him for being sore.

Mythal was the mother guardian goddess, everything went to hell when she was murdered. She seems to hold some fondness for the Dalish, though. When she's resurrected in 2, I originally thought her comment to Merrill:

"Do you know who I am, beyond that title?"

"No."

"Then stand. The People kneel too quickly."

Was an epic burn against the Dalish that actually shocked me with how nasty it is. Now it comes across as a mother admonishing her children for being too easily impressed. 

Solas is excusable that he doesn't tell, for all the reasons other people have mentioned. What isn't excusable is holding the Dalish in contempt like he does, when his own actions had a role to play in the fall of Arlathan, the enslavement, and the fall of the Dales. Fine, some Dalish got snippy with him when he tried to reveal the truth to them. Lavellan is not them. I do appreciate that he tends to get flustered and apologized whenever you point out, "We might get it wrong, but we're trying, and we can't walk the Fade for answers like you do. You're looking down on the People for something that only you can do."

SOLAS: Right, right, Dreamers aren't a dime a dozen. *sighs*

 

I always wanted to call out Solas a little more directly on his hypocrisy .... something along the lines of, hey you don't want people judging you for your point ears you better damn well stop judging me because of the tattoos on my face!

 

But alas, not given that option.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I keep thinking my Lavellan will treat Solas like a romanced Jack treats Shephard in ME3. Punch in the face followed by passionate kiss. And she totally gets away with it.

 

So much nicer than mine 

 

If they do meet up again, he's going to get nothing from her at first.  Just a blank, polite mask.  That may change depending on what he does, but I feel like I have to be at least a little mean to him.

 

f the Dalish PC asks Solas about elven culture and he criticizes the Dalish, you can basically ask him why doesn't he teach other Dalish/elves if he knows better? When he dismisses that they would just reject him, the PC can tell him, "You've decided their reaction for them." I love, love, love that line.

 

Huh, I never saw that line.  I always got the one where Lavellan apologizes to him and tries to smooth the conversation over, but I like this line a lot better.  Solas decides a lot of things for other people; might as well have Lavellan call him out on it 

[zambixi]

 
It reminds me of Sera's little hissy fit over the Well of Sorrows.  Sometimes what you need to believe and what you're actually seeing/hearing are two different things, and then you have to make a very painful choice.  My Lavellan is like Solas and falls firmly on the side of painful truth, but not everyone is like that.
 

That's true, Clan Ralaferin was generally more open and tolerant.  Maybe they didn't so much doctor it as cherrypick it unconsciously.  I mean, if you're an elven slave in the Tevinter Imperium at the height of its power, you'd rather remember the more benevolent aspects of the Creators and Arlathan in general.  And over generations, the less savory elements of Elvhenan just got lost.

 

Keep in mind too that the Tevinter probably didn't celebrate elvhen culture either. There may have been measures in place to suppress the cultural practices of slaves - that is usually what happens in the real-world anyway. So it may not be cherry-picking so much as extrapolating based on what little did survive. Especially if the elves that were enslaved by Tevinter were largely the slave-class of Arlathan or otherwise uneducated about elves. They may not have known much about true elvhen culture to start with and then trying to maintain that while your captors are doing their best to squash out all remnants...

 

So when Solas accuses the Dalish of "forgetting" I get a bit bristly because - while there are plenty of things the Dalish likely did knowingly - I don't think they forgot so much as their culture was taken from them. Isn't it implied that they were not allowed to wear vallaslin and that the Dalish took up that practice as a show against Tevinter? So...yeah... I've got a lot of feelings about this. I adore Solas but I don't think he's very compassionate with the Dalish.

[NightSymphony]

Beatiful Solas art

 

http://greendelle.de...efore-518177610

 

 

Despite all his faults, I still love that egg head.

[Elessara]

I'm thinking even worse than finding out the creators weren't nice people. Because I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think that maybe the gods had bad sides. Elgar'nan is the father and the god of vengeance and that's not exactly rosy. But... yeah I dunno. How shattering would it be to find out that your people were not only oppressed but also oppressors? Or to perhaps find out that the Dalish aren't descendents of the nobility but the slaves?

 

I still wonder if it's not something more fundamental than that though. Like finding out that the People don't encompass the current Dalish at all, or something. Maybe it's just hard for me to think that what we currently know would be that challenging because I'm not actually Dalish.

 

The Dalish were always descended from slaves.  Elves had been slaves for thousands of years before Andraste lead an army against the Tevinter Imperium and gave the Dales to the elves.  The Dalish are descended from the elves that refused to surrender after the Exalted March against the Dales.

 

I think what would be even more damaging would be finding out that the elves in Arlathan made other elves slaves just like the Tevinter Imperium.  They hold their stories of Arlathan on a pedestal and to find out, hey you know your ancestors weren't really any better, would hurt more.

[Sable Rhapsody]

So when Solas accuses the Dalish of "forgetting" I get a bit bristly because - while there are plenty of things the Dalish likely did knowingly - I don't think they forgot so much as their culture was taken from them. Isn't it implied that they were not allowed to wear vallaslin and that the Dalish took up that practice as a show against Tevinter? So...yeah... I've got a lot of feelings about this. I adore Solas but I don't think he's very compassionate with the Dalish.

 

He has a tremendous amount of compassion for individuals.  Lavellan, Cole, Cassandra, random refugees in the Hinterlands, even people he snaps at like Iron Bull (if Tal-Vashoth) and Blackwall.  I think he has trouble generalizing that compassion to groups like the Dalish.  Especially the Dalish, whom he only seems to see in a negative light until Lavellan.  And even then, it takes him a long time to admit that the Dalish may have had a hand in Lavellan becoming the person he grew to love.

[Elessara]

Keep in mind too that the Tevinter probably didn't celebrate elvhen culture either. There may have been measures in place to suppress the cultural practices of slaves - that is usually what happens in the real-world anyway. So it may not be cherry-picking so much as extrapolating based on what little did survive. Especially if the elves that were enslaved by Tevinter were largely the slave-class of Arlathan or otherwise uneducated about elves. They may not have known much about true elvhen culture to start with and then trying to maintain that while your captors are doing their best to squash out all remnants...

 

So when Solas accuses the Dalish of "forgetting" I get a bit bristly because - while there are plenty of things the Dalish likely did knowingly - I don't think they forgot so much as their culture was taken from them. Isn't it implied that they were not allowed to wear vallaslin and that the Dalish took up that practice as a show against Tevinter? So...yeah... I've got a lot of feelings about this. I adore Solas but I don't think he's very compassionate with the Dalish.

 

It's not even just that Tevinter probably suppressed the elvhen culture.  I mean yeah that did the most damage.  But then you have the Dales, where the elves tried to recreate their culture from what little they remembered.  It seems like they actually managed to build a pretty good kingdom too ... and then the Exalted March took away what little they had managed to regain.  Or as Solas says, "The Dalish remember fragments of fragments ..".

 

I kind of visualize it like ... Arlathan as a mirror (I know, eluvian lol) and then it fractures and pieces fall out from internal pressure then Tevinter comes along and shatters it some more and the elves then try to piece it back together but the Exalted March comes along and smashes those few pieces the elves had managed to recreate.

[Illyria]

Beatiful Solas art

 

http://greendelle.de...efore-518177610

 

 

Despite all his faults, I still love that egg head.

 

I think we all do.

 

Well, except the non-Solasmancers, obviously.  But they can still love him platonically.

[Solas]

After all that fuss about the thread NOT being a clique. Eh ive said my peace.

What's going on? Can someone please fill me in?

[MaidenM]

That's true, but it's also not exactly fair to expect people to give up centuries of holding onto their dying heritage and/or trying to recreate their dying culture on vague or cryptic warnings of "The past is not as wonderful as you think." If you tell them, they might react badly, or they might need time to adjust before accepting it, or they might accept it. If you never tell them, they're not going to change at all. (Worse if you know the answer but don't share it, then look down on them for not knowing what you know, as Solas and Abelas do.)

 

Agreed, but I think it's harder than just saying it and dealing with the consequences. Solas and Mythal seem to care about the People, and I think telling them and seeing how they fail to deal with it might be too big of a fear for them to risk it. Crushing someone's faith can be devastating for both parties.

 

I think Abelas simply doesn't tell you because he honestly doesn't really care if you know or not. I think he would feel it'd be similar to teaching a toddler physics, a waste of time. And who knows, he might be right.

As mentioned, Solas has reason to be quiet. Both personal and pragmatic imo.

 

So what about Mythal? I'm not sure we know how she feels about the dalish. She has the "kneel too quickly" line to Merrill but otherwise she seems pretty chill about them. Perhaps she thinks they are moving towards something better, and revealing the truth would shake the foundation they build that better future on?

[Illyria]

He has a tremendous amount of compassion for individuals.  Lavellan, Cole, Cassandra, random refugees in the Hinterlands, even people he snaps at like Iron Bull (if Tal-Vashoth) and Blackwall.  I think he has trouble generalizing that compassion to groups like the Dalish.  Especially the Dalish, whom he only seems to see in a negative light until Lavellan.  And even then, it takes him a long time to admit that the Dalish may have had a hand in Lavellan becoming the person he grew to love.

 

Doesn't Bull have a line (when you ask him about whether he's bothered by Krem being a Vint) about how it's easy to hate groups, but exhausting to hate individuals?  I think Solas is a lot like this.  He generalises a great deal (not just about the Dalish) but he cares for people.

 

I do think that a lot of the problems with Lavellan and the Dalish reveals come from the fact that the game wasn't written with elves in mind.  All the stuff about elven lore and the Solas romance where added in the last year.  It just wasn't enough time to redo huge parts of the game just for one race or one romance.  It's frustrating, but I'd rather have an elven PC (and the Solasmance) than no race selection.

[Illyria]

What's going on? Can someone please fill me in?

 

The thread got a warning from the mods for off topic and spam, so a new thread has been made for the elven panethon discussion.  There was some tension but everything is fine now.

[Solas]

This thread?!

 

Weird how I can't see anything filtering by BioWare only posts..

[Mims]

I don't believe the new mod system counts as a bioware post. 

[Elessara]

Agreed, but I think it's harder than just saying it and dealing with the consequences. Solas and Mythal seem to care about the People, and I think telling them and seeing how they fail to deal with it might be too big of a fear for them to risk it. Crushing someone's faith can be devastating for both parties.

 

I think Abelas simply doesn't tell you because he honestly doesn't really care if you know or not. I think he would feel it'd be similar to teaching a toddler physics, a waste of time. And who knows, he might be right.

As mentioned, Solas has reason to be quiet. Both personal and pragmatic imo.

 

So what about Mythal? I'm not sure we know how she feels about the dalish. She has the "kneel too quickly" line to Merrill but otherwise she seems pretty chill about them. Perhaps she thinks they are moving towards something better, and revealing the truth would shake the foundation they build that better future on?

 

She'll also tell a Lavellan that they do the People proud and have come far.  Although I'm not *precisely* sure what she means by the "come far" bit.

[Caddius]

The Dalish were always descended from slaves.  Elves had been slaves for thousands of years before Andraste lead an army against the Tevinter Imperium and gave the Dales to the elves.  The Dalish are descended from the elves that refused to surrender after the Exalted March against the Dales.

 

I think what would be even more damaging would be finding out that the elves in Arlathan made other elves slaves just like the Tevinter Imperium.  They hold their stories of Arlathan on a pedestal and to find out, hey you know your ancestors weren't really any better, would hurt more.

What I find interesting is that the Dalish claim to be descended from the nobility of the Dales, don't they? I want to know more about the Dales' power structure, culture, religion, etcetera. I think vallaslin is something that came after the Fall of the Dales as an FU to Andrastian humans after the Exalted March tore down their temples.

I'm willing to bet that the Keepers spent most of their Dales time building records and studying ancient lore, and most of that got burned. An oral tradition culture that loses its educated class, that becomes (I think) a literary culture after centuries as slaves, that gets forced into becoming oral tradition nomads again. It's a miracle they got the names of the gods and the corresponding vallaslin, complete with an understanding of the very basics of the gods' spheres of influence. Yeah, they got a lot wrong.

But they've done a lot better than we have with reconstructing Slavic mythology, and they've got a lot more excuses.

[nikki-tikki]

This thread?!

 

Weird how I can't see anything filtering by BioWare only posts..

 

http://forum.bioware...7#entry18720833

[Rabbitonfire]

This thread?!

 

Weird how I can't see anything filtering by BioWare only posts..

There was built up conflict but the final straw was another warning by a moderator:

 

Hey everyone. I know long threads get a little off-topic every once in a while but let's try to cut down on the gif spam and stay a  little closer to the topic. Thank you.