153434 réponses à ce sujet

[dragondreamer]

Keep in mind too that the Tevinter probably didn't celebrate elvhen culture either. There may have been measures in place to suppress the cultural practices of slaves - that is usually what happens in the real-world anyway. So it may not be cherry-picking so much as extrapolating based on what little did survive. Especially if the elves that were enslaved by Tevinter were largely the slave-class of Arlathan or otherwise uneducated about elves. They may not have known much about true elvhen culture to start with and then trying to maintain that while your captors are doing their best to squash out all remnants...

 

So when Solas accuses the Dalish of "forgetting" I get a bit bristly because - while there are plenty of things the Dalish likely did knowingly - I don't think they forgot so much as their culture was taken from them. Isn't it implied that they were not allowed to wear vallaslin and that the Dalish took up that practice as a show against Tevinter? So...yeah... I've got a lot of feelings about this. I adore Solas but I don't think he's very compassionate with the Dalish.

 

Yeah, very much this.  Though the Dalish began wearing vallaslin as an act of defiance against the Chantry and to distinguish themselves from City Elves.  After the Exalted March of the Dales, the elves were rounded up into the alienages and forced to convert, but the Dalish as we know them started wearing vallaslin as a visible way of stating they were going to continue to follow their own beliefs.  Never again shall we submit, and all that.

 

 

The Dalish were always descended from slaves.  Elves had been slaves for thousands of years before Andraste lead an army against the Tevinter Imperium and gave the Dales to the elves.  The Dalish are descended from the elves that refused to surrender after the Exalted March against the Dales.

 

I think what would be even more damaging would be finding out that the elves in Arlathan made other elves slaves just like the Tevinter Imperium.  They hold their stories of Arlathan on a pedestal and to find out, hey you know your ancestors weren't really any better, would hurt more.

 

Yup, though I imagine many elves might also look back and see a world where they weren't oppressed simply for being an elf.  Where their people in general weren't the downtrodden ones.  It depends on perspective, I guess.  I imagine the Dalish might have some pretty varied reactions to the truth, depending how it comes out, if it does.

 

The Dalish themselves, while descended from the enslaved elves of Arlathan (it's unknown if all of them were originally slaves in Arlathan, but they were all slaves once Tevinter got ahold of them), are supposedly descended from the noble families of the old Dales which came much later.  It makes sense that the noble families were the ones who were too proud to submit to Chantry rule after the Exalted March of the Dales.

[Solas]

Thanks for the links, information and filling in everyone Solas thread it's not like you to have conflict

[Maria13]

I think somewhere among all the tin-foil hat theories and discussions of Dalish culture, we hit upon a theory that the Dalish doctored their own history to give their people hope and strength.  Specifically, we get most of our Dalish lore from Keeper Gisharel of clan Ralaferin, and it's the nice-and-fluffy version of the Creators. 

 

I find Solas almost telling Lavellan the truth to be both sweet and immensely frustrating.  Solas has that wonderful effect on me as a character where I want to hug him AND smash his stupid egg head into a wall.

 

I'm with you except on the second part...

[Rabbitonfire]

Thanks for the links, information and filling in everyone Solas thread it's not like you to have conflict

sure thing, anything you may be confused about, pm away.

[Maria13]

Thanks for the links, information and filling in everyone Solas thread it's not like you to have conflict

 

I've just read you interpretation of the murals... Has there been any discussion of the fact that Solas represents the inquisition as a pack of wolves???

[Elessara]

What I find interesting is that the Dalish claim to be descended from the nobility of the Dales, don't they? I want to know more about the Dales' power structure, culture, religion, etcetera. I think vallaslin is something that came after the Fall of the Dales as an FU to Andrastian humans after the Exalted March tore down their temples.

I'm willing to bet that the Keepers spent most of their Dales time building records and studying ancient lore, and most of that got burned. An oral tradition culture that loses its educated class, that becomes (I think) a literary culture after centuries as slaves, that gets forced into becoming oral tradition nomads again. It's a miracle they got the names of the gods and the corresponding vallaslin, complete with an understanding of the very basics of the gods' spheres of influence. Yeah, they got a lot wrong.

But they've done a lot better than we have with reconstructing Slavic mythology, and they've got a lot more excuses.

 

I don't know that the Dalish claim to actually be descended from the nobility of the Dales.  I'm not sure we really have much of an idea of the political structure of the Dales.  Keepers in the time of the Dales were, yes, keepers of lore and history and did spend much of their time trying to recreate or uncover the past.  The Dragon Age Wiki says that the Keepers claim to be descended from the nobility of the Dales but I see no citation at all backing that up.  It also seems unlikely as, from what I can recall, the Dalish choose their Keepers based on magical ability not bloodline.

 

And yeah an oral tradition is probably the worst way to try to keep records.  Each person it's taught to will put their own interpretation on it in the retelling and things get changed over time no matter how hard you try .. it's kind of like a long lasting Whisper Down the Lane game.  Writing is better though that can still be interpreted differently.

[dragondreamer]

I don't know that the Dalish claim to actually be descended from the nobility of the Dales.  I'm not sure we really have much of an idea of the political structure of the Dales.  Keepers in the time of the Dales were, yes, keepers of lore and history and did spend much of their time trying to recreate or uncover the past.  The Dragon Age Wiki says that the Keepers claim to be descended from the nobility of the Dales but I see no citation at all backing that up.  It also seems unlikely as, from what I can recall, the Dalish choose their Keepers based on magical ability not bloodline.

 

And yeah an oral tradition is probably the worst way to try to keep records.  Each person it's taught to will put their own interpretation on it in the retelling and things get changed over time no matter how hard you try .. it's kind of like a long lasting Whisper Down the Lane game.  Writing is better though that can still be interpreted differently.

 

I don't think the Dalish choose Keepers based on bloodlines (Lanaya certainly suggests otherwise), but the Dalish in general are supposed to be descended from the old Dales nobility.

 

From WoT page 32:
 

 

Before the Exalted March of the Dales, many Dalish were elven nobility.  Though their status has long been stripped away, they maintain the same pride and sense of duty held by their ancestors.

 

 

 

The Dalish, who band together in small groups of blood relatives, travel in ornately carved wagons known as aravel, drawn by large white stags called halla. The aravel are a unique sight, beautiful in their swooping curvature, and adorned with broad hoods and bright silken cloths that flap in the wind, often displaying the noble banners that once flew over that family's house.

 

http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_Aravels

 

Clan Ralaferin in particular has been identified in an Emerald Graves landmark as sharing the name of known noble house of the old Dales, and the clan claims to be descended from them. 

[Elessara]

I don't think the Dalish choose Keepers based on bloodlines (Lanaya certainly suggests otherwise), but the Dalish in general are supposed to be descended from the old Dales nobility.

 

From WoT page 32:
 

 

 

http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_Aravels

 

Clan Ralaferin in particular has been identified in an Emerald Graves landmark as sharing the name of known noble house of the old Dales, and the clan claims to be descended from them. 

 

Ah hah!  Darn you WoT!  I so need to get that book.  And memorize it.

[Taelaa]

I keep thinking my Lavellan will treat Solas like a romanced Jack treats Shephard in ME3. Punch in the face followed by passionate kiss. And she totally gets away with it.

 

 

So much nicer than mine 

 

If they do meet up again, he's going to get nothing from her at first.  Just a blank, polite mask.  That may change depending on what he does, but I feel like I have to be at least a little mean to him.

 

 

Huh, I never saw that line.  I always got the one where Lavellan apologizes to him and tries to smooth the conversation over, but I like this line a lot better.  Solas decides a lot of things for other people; might as well have Lavellan call him out on it 

 

We have to remember that he broke up with Lavellan before he disappeared. When/ if (when, dammit!) he returns, I think my Lavellan's response will just be sad that she has to be around him again if he doesn't do some serious talking. Oh, you came back, why? Then, her reaction will be based on his reasons for returning. Oh, you need the anchor? *slap* Oh, you need me? *swoon* You have some 'splainin' to do!

 

Too many feels to sort through for sure. I almost don't want a DLC. I just want the full DA4 because I want some mother effing answers and I have sooo many questions that I don't think any DLC will be satisfying enough.

[RogueBait]

Seems like he's seeing Solas as a real competitor. I mean, I really don't see why he would, like not at all, but something tells me he does...

 

------

 

Well, he went West, didn't he? What's in the west? California. Really, I'm totally not surprised.

 

Spoiler

 

So you're saying I'm being too subtle. Got it, thanks for your help! Tonight's agenda: discussing the benefits of threesomes with fictional characters.

 

And what's west of California? The Pacific Ocean. What's in the Pacific Ocean? Whales.

 

Spoiler

 

Solas is going west because he's a whale.

[Caddius]

 

 

I personally don't think the Dalish want to recreate Arlathan because they think it's Perfect, and any information that contradicts that Utopian ideal would destroy them. I think they want to recreate it because it's theirs. It's elven. It's their own heritage, history, culture, tradition and religion; not the one that humans or Qunari try to force onto them. The elves had their own society before humans came along and conquered, enslaved, and/or tried to convert them, so now they want to be left alone to build an elven society with their own elven religion and culture. Elvhenan and Arlathan was the society that elves had before Tevinter absorbed them and then Andrastians converted them, so it's the model for which they want to base their society. If they need a foundation to build any civilization, might as well choose their own elven model instead of a Tevinter model, Orlesian model, Orzammar model, or Qunari, or whatever. They also know little about their own history and heritage, and so want to recover it so they can move on.

 

Quoted because I can't like it twice.

[Elessara]

So you're saying I'm being too subtle. Got it, thanks for your help! Tonight's agenda: discussing the benefits of threesomes with fictional characters.

 

And what's west of California? The Pacific Ocean. What's in the Pacific Ocean? Whales.

 

Spoiler

 

Solas is going west because he's a whale.

 

I'm not sure what I was expecting when I clicked on that Spoiler tag but ... it wasn't that.  lol

[Solas]

Thanks Rabbit!

I've just read you interpretation of the murals... Has there been any discussion of the fact that Solas represents the inquisition as a pack of wolves???

I posted about that on Tumblr! my interpretation of this (not very long sorry). iirc in the reblogs some ppl offered some alternative/additional ones which are awesome too

edit ok maybe not the notes but i did see someone somewhere on tumblr doing it hmm

[zambixi]

/snip/

I'm honestly not trying to be rude, but I think you're forgetting that the Dalish consist of individuals with varying degrees of religious devotion, emotional investment in their stories, romantization of their past, openness to new ideas, acceptance of differing viewpoints, and so on, just like individuals of every culture. Some hold fast to what they've been taught as the Gospel Truth, others choose to believe for lack of an alternative, some believe they're just stories but listen to them because it's all the information they have at the moment, some are implied to be agnostic or atheist but believe tradition and culture is important, etc.

 

Just look at Merrill: "Your 'Maker' is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

 

People aren't made of glass. They don't shatter into a million pieces and then stab people with the shards. They bruise, they bleed, they heal, they cover the wound with scar tissue and move on. They react to upsetting news with anything from denial, to anger, to depression, to bargaining, to acceptance; sometimes with a long process involving all three. But whenever people learn something new about their history or culture, usually they must decide, "What now?"

 

I personally don't think the Dalish want to recreate Arlathan because they think it's Perfect, and any information that contradicts that Utopian ideal would destroy them. I think they want to recreate it because it's theirs. It's elven. It's their own heritage, history, culture, tradition and religion; not the one that humans or Qunari try to force onto them. The elves had their own society before humans came along and conquered, enslaved, and/or tried to convert them, so now they want to be left alone to build an elven society with their own elven religion and culture. Elvhenan and Arlathan was the society that elves had before Tevinter absorbed them and then Andrastians converted them, so it's the model for which they want to base their society. If they need a foundation to build any civilization, might as well choose their own elven model instead of a Tevinter model, Orlesian model, Orzammar model, or Qunari, or whatever. They also know little about their own history and heritage, and so want to recover it so they can move on.

 

Some might react badly to learning the society they seek to learn from is as bad as those they've shunned, sure. But I think others would be just as willing to process, learn, grow, or decide what to do with the new information though. But, again, if you don't tell them, they're not going to know. They're not going to learn or grow.

 

As for Solas', Mythal's, and Abelas' reasons for saying what they do: I don't know. I think you're giving them a little too much credit (Mythal certainly doesn't seem to care what happens to the people; she's left them to their own devises after a thousand years of slavery and 700 years of diaspora, and shrugs off a Lavellan's attempt to plead with her for help; Solas clearly has disdain for the Dalish and little respect for city elves, and Abelas... yeah), but I don't know enough about their motivations to know for sure.

 

I think maybe you're underestimating how big of a challenge changing cultural ideas are. Yes, you're right, on an individual level there will be some Dalish that are more open to change than others but as they are now the Dalish are an incredibly insular society. Most of the clans interact very little with other people - even other Dalish - and likely are not accustomed to integrating new ideas into their worldview. The entire reason Merrill becomes a pariah of her clan is because she is challenging the traditional beliefs of the Dalish by fooling around with blood magic. The elves in DA:O never bother to question why their Keeper remains immortal while everyone else dies, despite the fact that he's never shared that very important information with anyone. You have exceptions - like Lavellan's clan - but on the whole we're not looking at a flexible culture here.

 

And in the real world, it takes a very long time for cultures to change, and the changes are often not undertaken smoothly. Especially when religion is involved. Heck, you can't get most governments to agree that they committed atrocities that there is actual physical evidence for. Even in free democracies. People do not want to believe that their ancestors were wrong, because it usually means that their own worldview is false in some way (i.e. that they've been a dick their whole lives for no actual reason). I don't think that the Dalish as a whole would accept the say-so of anyone if it were to reflect negatively on their culture. Especially when their whole identity is built upon the premise of being a free people driven out of their idyllic homeland by evil shems. Right now they think their history was taken from them, and it'd be a completely different game if they figured out that the elves actually messed it up for themselves and it was only later that the humans came and did all sorts of horrible stuff to their culture. I think they absolutely romanticize their culture - you can hear it in the way they talk about the past as if it were "once upon a time" where everyone was immortal and lovely and sparkling.

 

Which isn't me ragging on the Dalish... that's what literally every culture does, everywhere. Individuals that deviate from the greater narrative are shunned, until maybe enough people are shunned at the same time to create a collective that can get some leverage and affect change but oh my goodness it is SO SLOW. ESPECIALLY in insular cultures.

 

Regarding Abelas... he has no reason to tell you anything. You're some random person trudging into his home like a trespassing teenager. He had no relationship or kinship with the Inquisitor, and nothing to gain by telling them anything. He doesn't know what you'd do with that information. So... for him to not tell the Quiz anything in that moment I think is completely understandable. Solas... not so much. Mythal.. well.. like I said before maybe she knows something we don't. Maybe she's been helping the Dalish the best she can, or maybe she's so blinded by her quest for vengeance against people that she doesn't have time for her kids any longer. IDK

[Sable Rhapsody]

For all his talk of valuing the individual, he's really quick to lump people together. For all his desire to be seen as an individual and "not just another pair of pointed ears," he is really quick to judge and look down on other elves.

 
Hence me wanting to smash his egg head into a wall  He's a hot mess.
 

We have to remember that he broke up with Lavellan before he disappeared. When/ if (when, dammit!) he returns, I think my Lavellan's response will just be sad that she has to be around him again if he doesn't do some serious talking. Oh, you came back, why? Then, her reaction will be based on his reasons for returning. Oh, you need the anchor? *slap* Oh, you need me? *swoon* You have some 'splainin' to do!

Credit where it's due.  At least he didn't just up and leave after Corypheus's defeat like a coward.  He chickened out, but at least he TRIED to offer the truth, and then when he couldn't, he cut off the relationship instead of just fleeing after the orb broke.  I would have been so much angrier if he'd just left.

[Solas]

I've been thinking about it and if what I speculate is the awaiting plotline comes to pass I'm pretty sure my Lavellan will kill (or at least try to) Solas my heart is doomed

[Vorathrad]

I think that the Dalish are holding on to their past because they have nothing else; they are comprised of a decreasing number of clans, not allowed to settle anywhere and most probably not allowed to unite either (I can figure out the reaction of local authorities anywhere in Thedas when learning that several Dalish groups have gathered in a place) Their future is looking darker and darker. So on the one hand, losing the only thing still holding them as a culture by learning their gods were essentially powerful douches, it could be their demise. But it could also mean leaving the anchor behind and sailing on to a new direction.

 

As I see it, in order to have any chance to survive, the Dalish must either take a new direction via a powerful representative (i.e. an elf Inquisitor) and starting on the events at Wycome. Or give rise to a figure like Vercingetorix (well, but with a better ending) that can unite the clans to fight for a common goal (getting the lands Andraste promised them, freeing the city slaves, I dunno...) (On second thought, that figure might be Solas? Solastorix?)

 

Their gods have long abandoned them, and their "you wouldn't" understand excuses sound to me like "My own agenda is more important". But today has been another crappy day, so don't mind my pessimistic approach 

 

Edit to add I found Solas favorite jersey: 

 

Spoiler

 

source

[Maria13]

I've been thinking about it and if what I speculate is the awaiting plotline comes to pass I'm pretty sure my Lavellan will kill (or at least try to) Solas my heart is doomed

 

I'm really not so sure... He has the vibe of a potential ally to me...

[Delphine]

Spoiler

Definitely into the Tudors right now, and BOY DID CATHERINE OF ARAGON HAVE A SH*TTY LIFE. Ugh.

 

Carry on with regular Solasing, Solas is a great mage.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I've been thinking about it and if what I speculate is the awaiting plotline comes to pass I'm pretty sure my Lavellan will kill (or at least try to) Solas my heart is doomed

 

Please to be sharing?  I haven't had nearly enough ugly tears today 

 

 

I'm really not so sure... He has the vibe of a potential ally to me...

 

The vibe I get from him is more like...ME2 Illusive Man minus the general jerkbaggery.  A potential ally, but equally likely to turn without hesitation if he decides that his own goals are more important than the Inquisition's, and powerful enough to cause a lot of trouble no matter what he does.

[Solas]

I'm really not so sure... He has the vibe of a potential ally to me...

I reckon some Inquisitors will be able to choose to ally with him/help him ohh yes

just, my lavellan will probably knife him

[Maria13]

I reckon some Inquisitors will be able to choose to ally with him/help him ohh yes

just, my lavellan will probably knife him

 

Ah! I wondered if that was what you meant... So it's personal...

[Solas]

Please to be sharing?  I haven't had nearly enough ugly tears today 

 

 

 

The vibe I get from him is more like...ME2 Illusive Man minus the general jerkbaggery.  A potential ally, but equally likely to turn without hesitation if he decides that his own goals are more important than the Inquisition's, and powerful enough to cause a lot of trouble no matter what he does.

heres my ramble obviously it 1) works on the premise that my speculations are true and 2) applies to the character of my lavellan specifically (who is a ruthless hardass basically)

 

sorry for any confusion maria i'm sleepmedicated

[zambixi]

Thanks Rabbit!

I posted about that on Tumblr! my interpretation of this (not very long sorry). iirc in the reblogs some ppl offered some alternative/additional ones which are awesome too

edit ok maybe not the notes but i did see someone somewhere on tumblr doing it hmm

 

 

I MISSED YOU SO MUCH AND I'M GLAD YOU'RE BACK FOR A BIT

*ahem*

 

 

So you're saying I'm being too subtle. Got it, thanks for your help! Tonight's agenda: discussing the benefits of threesomes with fictional characters.

 

And what's west of California? The Pacific Ocean. What's in the Pacific Ocean? Whales.

 

Spoiler

 

Solas is going west because he's a whale.

 

 

So majestic