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[tsunamitigerdragon]

IIRC he even calls Wisdom "vhenan", or at least he uses the word even though the subtitles translation doesn't mention "heart" at all. Whatever confused experiences he may had in the past (Blackwall banter), the Solas we know now has learned to love and cherish his spirit friends without corrupting their nature.

 

But unless he falls for a Spirit of Love (does that even exist? I know the weirdie in Redcliffe mentions one but as we know it wasn't a Spirit of Love), there's no way he could have a romantic relationship with one. If that's what you're suggesting. ^^

There IS a spirit of love! It's in a codex entry from this game. A man seeks out a spirit of love three times, but by the third he twists it into a desire demon who wraps her fingers around his heart. The assumed ending is that it kills him.

What's fascinating here is that Solas personally states that the opposite of a Desire Demon is a Spirit of Purpose, and yet we have codex entries stating that the opposite of a spirit of Love is a Desire Demon. I... Don't quite agree there. I think one can experience both love AND desire simultaneously. I'd sooner say the opposite of a Spirit of Purpose would be a Sloth Demon. OR Sloth as the opposite to Love. Because Hatred/ Rage isn't the opposite. Apathy is.

[Giton]

In Milton's heaven, angels have angel sex.

 

Just sayin.'

[Rabbitonfire]

The simple fact that he end up loving a mortal is enought. Spirits are like persons, they suffer and are happy, but lack the complexity of the mortals. They embidied one, and only one trait.

They are simple. They have no complexity. Once you know what they are, and what they do, there is little to know about them, beside what they have seen. A mortal change constantly, and have many layers. A spirit is good as a friend, but is static. Quite boring to have a relationship with.

Despite the cringing thought of dating a creep spirit child, I would date Cole. Would you date Cole? He's supportive.

 

hmmm... Now that I think about it. I would imagine him cheating on you for the sake of easing somebody's sorrow. Sorry Cole, I only believe in us. In monogamy.

 

Stop helping that dying old man over there, bikini Cole.

 

Spoiler

[Patchwork]

In that situation, I'm guessing the Desire demon would feed off of whatever it was the person desired. So if he/she wanted fluffy love bedroom things, she'd give that to them.

 

But probably wouldn't actually feel it themselves. Demons seem to be the predatory side of spirits, where they are actively attempting to 'harvest' an emotion that strengthens them.

 

 

 

They do mention love spirits! They seem to spend their time playing matchmaker. I almost want to say Wynne's spirit was a love spirit? But I don't know if she just referred to it as that. 

 

Wynne says it's a spirit of faith. 

[Felya87]

Cole is a spirit and he is anything but simple. He is full of complexity.

 

I don't think we know enough about spirits or the fade or demons to really have any grasp on a full understanding of what spirits are capable of.

 

That said, I don't think Solas is a spirit.

 

Cole is a very complex thing. he is a spirit, and yet it isn't. He surely became much less complex if he is made more spirit like.

[KarateKats]

The simple fact that he end up loving a mortal is enought. Spirits are like persons, they suffer and are happy, but lack the complexity of the mortals. They embidied one, and only one trait.

They are simple. They have no complexity. Once you know what they are, and what they do, there is little to know about them, beside what they have seen. A mortal change constantly, and have many layers. A spirit is good as a friend, but is static. Quite boring to have a relationship with.

But how do you know they lack the complexity of mortals? We haven't been shown a lot of non-demon spirits. And personally the ones we have seen have been very complex and interesting to me and definitely not a one and only one emotion type of being. Cole shows us that they can change as well. I don't like the idea of assigning human restrictions on love and feelings to them. Who knows what they feel exactly. For all we know they could feel love and pain more keenly then a mortal ever could because they are just so connected to the life force of Thedas. Solas mentions how strong ideals or memories can form certain types of spirits... and to me personally that shows that they have the capacity to care deeply, even if it's in a way that's different to humans.

[Mims]

What's fascinating here is that Solas personally states that the opposite of a Desire Demon is a Spirit of Purpose, and yet we have codex entries stating that the opposite of a spirit of Love is a Desire Demon. I... Don't quite agree there. I think one can experience both love AND desire simultaneously. I'd sooner say the opposite of a Spirit of Purpose would be a Sloth Demon. OR Sloth as the opposite to Love. Because Hatred/ Rage isn't the opposite. Apathy is.

 

I'm guessing Bioware is not entirely on the same book as far as what the dynamics between spirits/demons go. Unfortunately. :[ 

 

Although it could be that there's a variance to what a spirit can warp itself into. IE; Love can turn to hate. 

[BoscoBread]

IIRC he even calls Wisdom "vhenan", or at least he uses the word even though the subtitles translation doesn't mention "heart" at all. Whatever confused experiences he may had in the past (Blackwall banter), the Solas we know now has learned to love and cherish his spirit friends without corrupting their nature.

 

But unless he falls for a Spirit of Love (does that even exist? I know the weirdie in Redcliffe mentions one but as we know it wasn't a Spirit of Love), there's no way he could have a romantic relationship with one. If that's what you're suggesting. ^^

And this is where my views on Solas' relationship seem to differ -

I'm all about the Solas/Lavellan did the do but to him it really was an enjoyable side benefit - something that two consenting adults did. I think he would appreciate the intimacy of it and find it important, but beyond that ...nothing major. To him the importance of the relationship would come from its emotional intensity..  If a Lavellan came to him and said I cannot have sex for the rest of my life, that would be fine with him.  That's how I view it.  As long as her spirit was still hers, I think he would enjoy it just as much. 

 

He loved his friend Wisdom. She comforted him in grief and likely counseled him.   He says these things. It's the only time we see him seriously grieve.  That's why - if you kill her as  pride demon - he will NEVER date you. The relationship doesn't happen because you've totally written off his opinion that spirits are worthy of consideration beyond single-minded drones. 

[Armdin]

In that situation, I'm guessing the Desire demon would feed off of whatever it was the person desired. So if he/she wanted fluffy love bedroom things, she'd give that to them.

 

But probably wouldn't actually feel it themselves. Demons seem to be the predatory side of spirits, where they are actively attempting to 'harvest' an emotion that strengthens them.

 

They do mention love spirits! They seem to spend their time playing matchmaker. I almost want to say Wynne's spirit was a love spirit? But I don't know if she just referred to it as that. 

 

Top paragraph we see in Origins, with that Desire Demon who makes the Templar believe he's married with kids.

 

Ah yes, I forgot about Solas' Matchmaker spirit. xD Sadly Wynne's isn't, or at least she suspected it was a Spirit of Faith specifically.

[Rabbitonfire]

Way to drain the joy out of that entirely. Now I see them as disgruntled gas stop cashiers for whom their occupation brings no fulfillment.

Stop looking at my face, the bosom goods are down here. 

[tsunamitigerdragon]

And this is where my views on Solas' relationship seem to differ -

I'm all about the Solas/Lavellan did the do but to him it really was an enjoyable side benefit - something that two consenting adults did. I think he would appreciate the intimacy of it and find it important, but beyond that ...nothing major. To him the importance of the relationship would come from its emotional intensity..  If a Lavellan came to him and said I cannot have sex for the rest of her life, that would be fine with him.  That's how I view it.  As long as her spirit was still hers, I think he would enjoy it just as much. 

 

He loved his friend Wisdom. She comforted him in grief and likely counseled him.   He says these things. It's the only time we see him seriously grieve.  That's why - if you kill her as  pride demon - he will NEVER date you. The relationship doesn't happen because you've totally written off his opinion that spirits are worthy of consideration beyond single-minded drones. 

I'm out of likes. But this is so beautiful and exactly spot on to what we experience in game. Thank you.

[Armdin]

There IS a spirit of love! It's in a codex entry from this game. A man seeks out a spirit of love three times, but by the third he twists it into a desire demon who wraps her fingers around his heart. The assumed ending is that it kills him.

What's fascinating here is that Solas personally states that the opposite of a Desire Demon is a Spirit of Purpose, and yet we have codex entries stating that the opposite of a spirit of Love is a Desire Demon. I... Don't quite agree there. I think one can experience both love AND desire simultaneously. I'd sooner say the opposite of a Spirit of Purpose would be a Sloth Demon. OR Sloth as the opposite to Love. Because Hatred/ Rage isn't the opposite. Apathy is.

 

Thank you!

 

I think it's more likely that the nature they aspire to doesn't matter so much as what actually corrupts them does. They become what corrupts them. I think there's a Solas/Cole banter that mentions this? I don't think a spirit corrupted will definitely turn into it's polar opposite.

[RynJ]

Way to drain the joy out of that entirely. Now I see them as disgruntled gas stop cashiers for whom their occupation brings no fulfillment.

 

This is forever how I will see Desire demons now. Every single time they must muster up the energy to be "sexy and mysterious" for some drooling mage. Like when you drag yourself out of bed to go to work and don't have time for that cup of coffee. But you need to feed today, gosh darn it.

[Patchwork]

There IS a spirit of love! It's in a codex entry from this game. A man seeks out a spirit of love three times, but by the third he twists it into a desire demon who wraps her fingers around his heart. The assumed ending is that it kills him.

What's fascinating here is that Solas personally states that the opposite of a Desire Demon is a Spirit of Purpose, and yet we have codex entries stating that the opposite of a spirit of Love is a Desire Demon. I... Don't quite agree there. I think one can experience both love AND desire simultaneously. I'd sooner say the opposite of a Spirit of Purpose would be a Sloth Demon. OR Sloth as the opposite to Love. Because Hatred/ Rage isn't the opposite. Apathy is.

 

Maybe the type of demon a spirit becomes depends on the emotion and/or event that corrupts them. Love becomes Desire if it starts to focus on wants and needs, Purpose can become Sloth if it no longer cares enough to try or Desire if it loses itself to having rather than the goal. 

 

Does that make any sense, is my lack of caffeine showing?

[Elessara]

IIRC he even calls Wisdom "vhenan", or at least he uses the word even though the subtitles translation doesn't mention "heart" at all. Whatever confused experiences he may had in the past (Blackwall banter), the Solas we know now has learned to love and cherish his spirit friends without corrupting their nature.

 

But unless he falls for a Spirit of Love (does that even exist? I know the weirdie in Redcliffe mentions one but as we know it wasn't a Spirit of Love), there's no way he could have a romantic relationship with one. If that's what you're suggesting. ^^

 

Actually I believe Solas calls the spirit "lethallin".

 

After reading through some of the past discussion I kind of feel that we jump on Solas a bit too much for making bad decisions (myself included).  The only questionable/bad decision we actually know about is he gave his orb to Corypheus.  The rest is all speculation.  We don't know what he did in the past or why although we do know that he feels guilt/regret/remorse/pain about it.  There's some evidence that he did indeed seal away the elven gods but there's also evidence that they probably needed to be taken out of the picture.  However, that's all just speculation as well.

 

We need more context.  Let's form a mob and (peacefully) take over BioWare's headquarters and nicely make them tell us everything.

[Giton]

On Angel sex, or rather cosmic eros, because it's so good. So good:

 

However, eros is the driving force behind Milton’s self-generating dynamic universe. His vision redeems not just appetite but also erotic desire, not just the use of lower matter to feed higher and more spiritualized matter but also the potential for rational beings to desire other rational beings as part of God’s plan. Erotic desire is something else humans and angels have in common. In this creation full of potential and sensual delight, angels as the highest form of embodied creation are attractive to each other, to humans, and to the narrative gaze. They are desirable not only for their superior goodness and intelligence but also for their incredible beauty and for their mutual enjoyment of that beauty. Raphael, when he wings his way from heaven to lunch with God’s newest creations, is a “gorgeous” shape-shifting spectacle who attracts the attention of birds and earns a lingering description from the narrator (5.250):

 

. . . to all the fowls he seems 

A phœnix, gazed by all. . . . 

At once on the eastern cliff of Paradise 

He lights, and to his proper shape returns 

A seraph winged; six wings he wore, to shade 

His lineaments divine; the pair that clad 

Each shoulder broad, came mantling o’er his breast 

With regal ornament; the middle pair 

Girt like a starry zone his waist, and round 

Skirted his loins and thighs with downy gold 

And colours dipped in heaven; the third his feet 

Shadowed from either heel with feathered mail 

Sky-tinctured grain.

(5.271–85)

 

He arrives amid a shower of sensory delight that produces “enormous bliss” (5.296). As James Turner notes, Raphael’s entrance is “charged with sexual energy,” his arrival coinciding with the moment in which “the mounted sun / Shot down direct his fervid rays to warm / Earth’s inmost womb” (5.300–302). Milton emphasizes the erotic charge of this angel and thus avoids shading an erotic response to his angels with the taint of fallen human desire. Eros is woven into the fabric of creation. --"Desiring Angels: The Angelic Body in Paradise Lost" Karma de Gruy (122).

 

See also, why spirit sex sounds like a fun time. Pour moi.

[Avejajed]

Cole is a very complex thing. he is a spirit, and yet it isn't. He surely became much less complex if he is made more spirit like.

 

How so?

 

How do you explain how he came to be at all if spirits are so simple? His entire existence negates the argument that spirits are simple.

[Mims]

I wonder if there are loopholes.

 

What if the thing I desire most is to kill demons? 

[electricfish]

There IS a spirit of love! It's in a codex entry from this game. A man seeks out a spirit of love three times, but by the third he twists it into a desire demon who wraps her fingers around his heart. The assumed ending is that it kills him.

What's fascinating here is that Solas personally states that the opposite of a Desire Demon is a Spirit of Purpose, and yet we have codex entries stating that the opposite of a spirit of Love is a Desire Demon. I... Don't quite agree there. I think one can experience both love AND desire simultaneously. I'd sooner say the opposite of a Spirit of Purpose would be a Sloth Demon. OR Sloth as the opposite to Love. Because Hatred/ Rage isn't the opposite. Apathy is.

 

I would actually argue that desire is a broad emotion that can stem from many other types of more positive ones, but in this particular story it does make sense that the love spirit turns into desire. In the context of the story, the mage who summons it recognizes that he needs to be careful interacting with the spirit the first time, and shouldn't want to see her after that due to the risk of his emotions converting it to another type of spirit. The mentor of this young mage also tries to enforce the decision not to summon it in the future.

This pretty much started to make it a forbidden lovers situation where the mage's desire to see the spirit overtakes the more passive love he felt the first time he summoned it. It becomes more like want of possession, and because spirits are mutable beings who can change their nature simply based exposure to strong emotions, so the spirit of love twists itself to the darker side of desire that can stem from being restricted from a thing. 

It could have still been a mix of love/desire, or the mage's desire could have been more muted had he not been restricted from seeing the spirit. But it wasn't. This particular mage's emotions negatively influenced the spirit in such a way that it couldn't be love anymore. It was desire for another's heart/body/romance/whatever.

[Elessara]

How so?

 

How do you explain how he came to be at all if spirits are so simple? His entire existence negates the argument that spirits are simple.

 

I think the more powerful the spirit, the more complex they are and it's more possible for them to become like a mortal.  However, that is simply my own opinion and I have nothing to back it up with.

[BoscoBread]

I wonder if there are loopholes.

 

What if the thing I desire most is to kill demons? 

Desire demon starts to seizure "Does not compute" and head explodes

[Armdin]

I'm loving this discussion, guys. xD

 

I'm never going to get Awakening done!

[Patchwork]

And this is where my views on Solas' relationship seem to differ -

I'm all about the Solas/Lavellan did the do but to him it really was an enjoyable side benefit - something that two consenting adults did. I think he would appreciate the intimacy of it and find it important, but beyond that ...nothing major. To him the importance of the relationship would come from its emotional intensity..  If a Lavellan came to him and said I cannot have sex for the rest of my life, that would be fine with him.  That's how I view it.  As long as her spirit was still hers, I think he would enjoy it just as much. 

 

He loved his friend Wisdom. She comforted him in grief and likely counseled him.   He says these things. It's the only time we see him seriously grieve.  That's why - if you kill her as  pride demon - he will NEVER date you. The relationship doesn't happen because you've totally written off his opinion that spirits are worthy of consideration beyond single-minded drones. 

 

I agree with this, the physical part of Lavellan/Solas (or any Solas relationship) comes after a mental and emotional connection. 

 

He did love the Wisdom spirit but he was probably careful not to do anything that would lead to it's corruption. Whoever the spirit sex was with I don't think it was with Wisdom but probably back in his younger days in Arlathan. 

[tsunamitigerdragon]

I'm guessing Bioware is not entirely on the same book as far as what the dynamics between spirits/demons go. Unfortunately. :[ 

 

Although it could be that there's a variance to what a spirit can warp itself into. IE; Love can turn to hate. 

 

Thank you!

 

I think it's more likely that the nature they aspire to doesn't matter so much as what actually corrupts them does. They become what corrupts them. I think there's a Solas/Cole banter that mentions this? I don't think a spirit corrupted will definitely turn into it's polar opposite.

Yeah, Mims and Armdin. I don't think THEY know what's going on there and so we're left to guess what the possibilities are. I would have sooner said the opposite of a spirit of Faith would be a Fear demon, but the Nightmare, which feeds off of Fear is a twisted spirit of Compassion (assuming what Cole says about his fears about becoming it himself are correct). It's a hot mess. 

 

But how do you know they lack the complexity of mortals? We haven't been shown a lot of non-demon spirits. And personally the ones we have seen have been very complex and interesting to me and definitely not a one and only one emotion type of being. Cole shows us that they can change as well. I don't like the idea of assigning human restrictions on love and feelings to them. Who knows what they feel exactly. For all we know they could feel love and pain more keenly then a mortal ever could because they are just so connected to the life force of Thedas. Solas mentions how strong ideals or memories can form certain types of spirits... and to me personally that shows that they have the capacity to care deeply, even if it's in a way that's different to humans.

 

Oh man. That's fascinating to me. The idea that perhaps spirits can feel even more deeply than mortals. And you're right, it's clear that they do change. And some of that change can be subtle - it doesn't happen over night. Like the Nightmare. When Cole talks about it, it's that he sees how he could become it in time. A slow twisting of intention. And because spirits feel things so strongly, they keep going where others might stop. Their devotion to a concept, ideal, person, or aspect of their essence goes beyond where a human might stop. Because the boundaries of mortals don't apply to them.

Secretly, I ship Wynne and the Spirit who saved her life SO HARD. She felt the spirit for years, watching, loving, protecting. Rather than lose her, the spirit chooses to possess her, empower her, and save her. It's only when she let's go to save another by choice that the spirit leaves. And I bet with so many tears of regret and feeling. They know they must do this thing because she asked, because they love her. If they don't do it, she'll change it something they don't love, and her asking them to do it makes them love her more. FEEEELS.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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