Foreplay Link to podcast here
00:06:22 Weekes Introduction
Question: When we were first doing this, of course people were talking about it. But since then romance in games has really spiked and become a feature you put on the box. I want to talk about what you think about how romance has changed over the last couple of years?
00:09:30 Weekes: “I also like to think from the large studio, from the AAA perspective, I think there’s been... I guess a little bit more confidence with it... so that um... I guess there are two types of lack of confidence. One type of lack of confidence is that we don’t do it. And then the other form of the lack of confidence, the early growing pains, I think is the... well... how do we know it's sex? We have to make sure they have all the boobies.
[Laugh]
Heskett Shapiro: wait, all of them?
Weekes: Aaaalll of them! And I think as we’ve gotten... as we’ve grown up a little bit, we’re not averse to showing skin if it’s appropriate for the scene... but we’ve gotten to a point where we can show uh love scenes that aren’t necessarily going to be just “youtube fodder” for lack of a better word there? It’s actually scenes in a relationship that might be a little like something that someone might have in real life. And I think ideally that gets a better emotional connection which is better for the people that are playing the games.
Question: Has it changed the way you design or write for romance in games? ....Do you feel more free, or does it feel more feel pressure?
00:12:10 Laidlaw: I can jump on that one. So setting out with a direction is a thing I do and um... when we sat down to start out Inquisition um, we kind of laid out goals for the project... what we were trying to achieve, of course, you know. Bring back kind of a medley of DA:2 and DA:O right, but also that fluent response blah blah blah. Those were gameplay goals. But when we sat down to talk about relationships, ‘cause that’s obviously a bit investment um... ‘cause you know a romantic character always has more text, more cutscenes, a lot more expenses produced. Which is one of those things where you’re like... man, is this worthwhile? And then we kind of start looking at data and you know actually um... what we’ve seen out of Inquisition, I think if I recall is, somewhere in the neighbourhood of like 42% of completed playthroughs had also completed a romance in it. It’s like okay that’s a spectacularly high number. You’re never gonna get 100%, but, seeing that like half the people that are playing... and we’re talking hundreds of thousands of people... well it’s like, okay, that’s worthwhile.
Um, so the goal that we set out then was like okay let’s try to be as inclusive as we can. And I was lucky that I watched the writing team literally really pick that ball up and go “OKAY!”
[Laughs]
So you know we created a budget for six romances and then this guy happened... [I imagine him pointing at Weekes?] ...and we got more! But we did it in a way that we balanced it out. And so, I think just the spread there in some way let us be more exploratory with the Inquisition and romances. Because you know, I mean like Josephine is kind of the Disney princess so well, what else can we... what other beats can we hit, right? We don’t need to just kinda pile that investment into one person and go “well I hope everyone likes that one person” ‘cause that’s not how people interact.
Question: This is probably a good question for Nicole [Martinez]... in Wolf Among Us you’re writing characters that are ostensibly... there’s a romantic spark between them but that’s not.. in the chronology that’s not the biggest thing. That’s not necessarily the thing you explore the most. Do you find that an interesting way to write a relationship?
......
00:15:43 Weekes: Well I think it’s interesting to look at it from the perspective of um... people saying that it is or it isn’t a romance or what that is. A romance... I think that the industry has grown up in a good way to the point where it is not just um... in search of approval tokens until sex happens.
[Laughs]
Other: Who would do that?!
Weekes: I don’t know!
[Super laughs]
Weekes: I’m just gonna keep lobbing ale at Morrigan until... um.. but yeah looking at romances that are... tragic romances that are *almost* missed romances or um.. . you know starcrossed lovers type romances. I think those are all equally valid and there are people who are going to be equally emotionally involved in all the different types.
00:17:18 Barrows: You meet so many interesting people in your life and you can’t be with all of them, and that’s okay. But, I think too... I mean the demographic for gamers, a lot of us are not 21. It makes you nostalgic for being younger. And for those possibilities. You may be married, and settled, and very happy too – to hang out and snuggle with your pets and whatever. But then you can have this really interesting, kind of escapist moment. So it’s like just as valid as wanting to go smash somebody with a hammer... is that you also want to have this exploring romance.
Question: I love that your characters in Inquisition have their own identity, their own arc, their own wants. It makes the story that much more rich and more true to real life (if dragons existed!).
00:18:56 Weekes: To jump on what Miellyn [Barrows] said just a little bit – I said this yesterday in one of the panels at the Biobase but, um... as Mike said that’s kind of one of the ways we deliberately try to design to. Josephine’s romance is adorable. And that’s not in a demeaning way. It is a cute, innocent, you know... kind of a first-time love sort of feeling romance and that’s fantastic. But we also wanted romances that were there for people who were like... maybe not necessarily older but who were like... people who were married. And you know, they’re curling up on the couch having just gotten the kid to go to sleep and... have an hour and a half before they have to go to sleep and just are like... you know , I’m old and I’m married and I’m a little bit tired right now and I just want something that’s like fun and escapist and doesn’t assume that I’ve never had sex before.
[Laughs]
00:20:37 Laidlaw: One example I’ve always... I’ve actually had a few people ask me about this yesterday and... you know, how come you don’t just have characters that are married? Right at the beginning of the game. And I kind of quickly thought about it and had another day to digest and... one of the big challenges of course is us expecting that emotional engagement right. Like especially in an RPG where it’s like “oh it’s your character but don’t worry you love this person”. That’s a pretty cold wall to run into. Uh, I think that when I look at a [bespoke?] character like Bigby it’s cool, you can tell this guy has a hang-up. I thought you handled the tension incredibly well. I think you guys were playing it out but there were like sparks which was a fantastic thing. And the other example I was thinking of was... this is a little “woman in the fridge” so maybe not the best example but... Jenny from The Darkness, if anyone played that. It’s interesting because that’s like 6-7 years ago. Uh but she is a character that kind of enters [bespoke?] from the comics as a notable part of Jacqui’s life. But in the game, not knowing anything about The Darkness, what hit me was “hey here’s 5 minutes, hey I’m moving into my place, hey I’m gonna make you a birthday cake, hey can we snuggle on the couch, and then, the entirety of To Kill a Mockingbird would play out. And she hits the best line in gaming, which is: “I really need to pee but I’m too tired to get up”. And then falls asleep. And you’re like, that was so real!
[Laughs]
And then she just kind of quietly kinds of murmurs every like 15 seconds or so and you’re like... well this is, this is [approving sounds]... and then of course that game RIPS ALL OF THAT AWAY. And you’re basically like, well my murderous rampage is GOOD TO GO.
[Laughs]
But what that did was that they used that existing relationship which sold me on it in a very short period of time.
....
It’s funny because it doesn’t come up a lot and yet I think it’s about the closest we’ve got to the opening of "Up". It’s just this super condensed awesome moment. And then they mess with you.
Question: Billionaire Banshee - It’s not called “I’d hit it” or anything like that! How the romantic aspects are not really at the forefront – they’re there certainly in the conversations that come out of it but in the core gameplay that’s not really the point?
00:24:27 Razlo: Yeah, talking to other people who are gamers for me, personally, I have and totally would play games that are 100% about romance. But I notice that there’s this level of comfort that comes with a lot of people being able to have kind of a scapegoat as to why you’re playing something. So in the case of like, Mass Effect or Dragon Age, even if this person‘s favourite thing is the romance element, if someone gives them a hard time about it all they’ll go “oh you should see the heads I’m chopping off!” Or like, these dragons that take me down or something. There’s a level of comfort that pretty much everybody playing games can relate to... but can secretly like the romance part best. And so just picture me on the con floor if I had called this game you know, “Date or Deny”, and I’m trying to get a bunch of dudes to come play with me. I’ll be like “hey guys I’ve got this cool dating game, you guys gonna come play with me? I just wanna know who you’ld date.”
[Laughs]
Why are you walking away? What’s going on?! I just wanna know if you like cuddling, come on guys!
So yeah it is a combination of two things in the game: [something trait and something trait? I haven’t played this game!] which isn’t universal it’s individual to the person. So I just said okay I’ll just take two of the traits in the game and put them together. And when people are looking at the name [of the game] it’s not descriptive at all really about what the game is until you already know what it is. So most people are like... Billionaire Banshee... what the **** is that? But hopefully come and check it out, and then when they check it out they’re interested.
Question: Dragon Age isn’t specifically a game about romance – that’s an aspect to it. How do you balance writing romance into the game versus the other elements, so that it feels a little bit more real... like they have their own life?
00:29:40 Heskett Shapiro: For Inquisition, the whole idea (from my perspective) is that you are becoming the Inquisitor. And you have these amazing legendary warrior-type people around you and you’re going through these really hard challenges in this world. And so, for me, I can’t imagine that situation where you wouldn’t wanna find that companionship, or that solace with someone. Not Solas. But Solace.
[Laugh]
00:30:10 Weekes: I think that in other, um, especially in Inquisition... um in a game that is explicitly a dating sim you can dive into it, it can be about that and you can... you know, you can burn your way through that pretty quickly. Inquisition can take anywhere from 60-200 hours to play. And you don’t wanna just go:
“Hi how’re you doing?” “I don’t know, I think you’re kind of cute!” “I think you’re kind of cute too!” “Okay we should kiss!” “Okay that’s awesome!” “Okay first love scene” “Oh we’re together forever!!”
And then you’re like ok, well, and now I have 120 hours left to play.
[Laughs]
There’s an extent to which you wanna kind of space it out, and you want to walk the balance between reminding the player that the romance is there, that hasn’t been forgotten, but giving them a little bit of that... the kind of slow burn, the lead up. So you know um... when you talk to, well either Iron Bull or Solas were the two that I wrote. Um, their greetings change, there are conversation lines that are different, even different conversations that are not about the romance. Just so that they know like we haven’t forgotten! We’re still you know considering the romance or thinking about the romance. But the real pay off isn’t until later. But ideally closer toward the end of the game so that it feels like it covers the arc.
00:32:03 Laidlaw: Well the integration was one of the critical parts because you know... you always want your whole game to feel like it’s part of one experience right. So whether that’s [something about cards?] I think Inquisition does it better than some of the others, is that a lot of the um... a lot of the romantic arcs are stalled because there’s a lot of game play to be done, right. And that they actually encourage game play. Hey, let’s go to this place. Hey, let’s do this thing. Character personal moments that are only unlocked because you’ve done a piece of game play. Like Bull – Bull has a big ol’ drinking scene with you but only until after you’ve killed the dragon.
00:32:42 Weekes: Well yeah and you’re not going to... you will never get the full blown romance unless you kill a dragon.
00:32:46 Laidlaw: Right. So the end result then is that the game play and romance are actually tied together in a way that feels natural as an element of progression through the game.
00:33:02 Barrows: You know we can’t get out of here without talking about Alistair.
[Laugh]
Alistair was one of my first great videogame loves and the fact that... we were the last of our kind and we were fighting this epic battle together really just did it for me, I’ll be honest. You know and I feel like it’s... at that point I felt close to him because we were you know, forced into this kind of little pod together... (that sounds weirdly sci-fi and vaguely sexual but you know)...
Anyway, but you know Alistair *dreamy voice*.
00:34:03 Baptiste: You have all of those companions, where a lot of those potential romances in Dragon Age Inquistion just become really good friendships. So there’s sort of the person you’re kind of dating, but then there’s the person like... as you say, a sort of camaraderie. It’s weird how close that parallels the romantic arc as well that has its own beautiful, special moment that it could at any moment kind of turn into a romance, but is actually a friendship.
00:34:42 Barrows: It’s like my relationship with Varric, and I’m always going back to him like, are you sure you don’t like me? Are you sure? Because, like, I am totally available to you. And part of that, in 2, how he always used to brag about our adventures all the time and I loved it – I would come in and he would be talking about, I mean, how fantastic I was, and how he was backing me up with his crossbow and you know... he still doesn’t care about me at all.
00:35:08 Martinez: Well as much as I love Varric and I want to romance Varric, I like that I can’t because it made this kind of interesting. Like we’re buddies, and we kind of flirt sometimes, but I know he’s not interested in me and it’s fine. Like I think it makes for a really unique friendship with Varric that doesn’t have the pressure of trying to please him all the time like in a romance.
00:35:51 Weekes: I think similarly one of the things that Dave, writer on Dragon Age Inquisition put in, was the ability for women to flirt with Dorian, and Dorian flirts back. And yeah, you can go all the way through and you know, if you’re doing a blind playthrough and you’re not terribly observant yourself...
[Laughs]
It can come as a shock when he’s like “yes I prefer the company of men”, and you can be like “BUT... BUT...” And I don’t know if the actual ship dialogue is “Oh... pumpkin....” but...
[More Laughs]
The tone was very close! It’s like “Oh, I’m sorry, do you want me to stop flirting with you?” and you can still say no, and continue flirting just knowing that you’re just going to be buddies. But like having that tension there, having that idea there is always nice.
Question: Baptiste: [Referring to Hadoful Boyfriend] Romance seems more accepted when you’re able to go a little bit out of the bounds of ordinary... it draws your attention to these elements.
00:38:49 Weekes: Part of romance... I don’t know if it’s necessarily part of romance in games, but part of romance is um... getting... having the chance to let your guard down. And... a lot of times, you know, if you go in knowing you’re playing a dating sim (and to be fair, Hadoful Boyfriend, you know you’re doing it) but a lot of times you’re going “oh I’m playing that ironically”. Which is, you know – It’s okay that I’m playing a pigeon dating game sim as a guy in his late 30s. But the fact that you’re playing it ironically means that you don’t feel like you have to emotionally engage – they’re just pigeons, I don’t have to worry about that. And that is not even specific to romance, that’s the reason why some of my most gut punch moments I’ve ever read are in Terry Pratchett novels. Because they’re funny, and you’re laughing, and that’s what gets you to let your guard down, and that’s when he just stabs you in the gut. In the same way, it’s like oh they’re pigeons this is funny, and that’s when you let your guard down and that’s when they can get you emotionally.
Question: Why do we not have NPCs initiating a relationship?
00:52:43 Weekes: Because when the npcs initiate relationships, players lose their ****....is the short version. It’s something that we looked at in Dragon Age 2, having Anders show an interest in you if you haven’t expressed one explicitly with him is something that got a lot of negative feedback. And it’s a balance we walk because I completely agree with you that having the player as always being the one to initiate it, limits us in having certain kinds of romance... it limits us to the kind of romance where I am not surprised by someone being interested in me. And that sucks. And I totally own that sucks because that’s an entire flavour of romance that we’re just like pre-emptively taking off the shelf. But every time we’ve taken it off we’ve gone “maybe be can.....” It has BLOWN UP. And I don’t know if there is a possible way to do it.
00:54:11 Laidlaw: It’s something I’ve put a lot of thought into, and I think where players do lose their **** is that... there is a branch of player for our games, because our games are not dating sims, who didn’t come in for dating. Right? So when dating starts happening – it doesn’t matter who it is, whether it’s Anders, girl or guy – that’s just not what they signed on for and something they’d want in their game. So I think what we need to explore, for the future, is the kind of thing where if the player starts showing romantic tendencies, we may be able to turn it on for other characters. So basically what the player is saying to the game is “I’m kind of intrigued by romance as an option and it’s something I want in the game because I flirt with some people”, maybe then we can find a way for that being the trigger for someone else to go “heeeey” [flirty voice].
[Laughs]
So just as a thought experiment like, if we were going to do it like, that’s the big hurdle – romance showing in my game when I didn’t want it at all. But there may be a way around it.
00:55:10 Razlo: I think if they started off as kind of like a fanboy or a fangirl through actions, and then you’re kind of unsure of whether there is a relationship there unless you pursue it, because you’re a badass.
00:55:17 Weekes: See.... yes, and I don’t disagree, but there are still people who were angry and confused when they ended up in the shower with Traynor.
[Laughs]
And I was a little like, that was not the most subtle! But they were like “how did this happen, I thought it was a platonic shower!” Like, well....
[Super laughs]
00:55:44 Laidlaw: I was angry and confused because that scene red-ringed my ****** Xbox. The first thing I do is reach for my phone and go “Patrick you fucker. Look what you did.” I had to go buy a new Xbox.
Question: What do you guys enjoy most about writing the romance?
00:57:56 Weekes: At risk of being a 13 year old boy um... for me I don’t write for plots as much as I do for moments. And... so for me there’s always like a pivotal moment that is the reason I wanted to do that romance. Um.... for Garrus it was the headbump. With Bull it’s him holding your arms in the first scene. With Solas it’s him and the Vallaslin. Those are just the romantic tension moments, the touch moments I got.
00:58:37 Laidlaw: For me it’s going, you know this won’t make everyone happy, but it’s going to make someone happy. And that’s pretty much why I make games.
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I think it's good that people can headcanon Solas as ace, but I don't understand why people have to be so mean when you don't agree..,
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