153434 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria13]

 

I don't think it's deliberate sexism.  It's just society teaches us that the type of traits Fiona has are good in a man, but bad in a woman.  And there a lot of male characters who screw up far, far worse than Bianca and Fiona who don't get nearly as much hate and have fandoms that justify everything they do. *cough*Anders*cough*

 

 

This theory has a lot of weight.  Fiona seemed to be doing okay when she met Inky in VR.  It was only after the timeline got messed around with that the Templer threat became impossible to overcome.  It's highly likely that the Nightmare also affected the mages to make them easier to control.

 

I think you'll find that's pretty much a definition of sexism... Double standards and all that.

 

I think Fiona did the best she possibly could, I really don't think she had that much room to manouevre  

[Illyria]

I think you'll find that's pretty much a definition of sexism... Double standards and all that.

 

I think Fiona did the best she possibly could, I really don't think she had that much room to manouevre  

 

I know it's sexism, I just think it's sexism that comes from how society teaches us to think, rather than someone thinking 'today I'm going to be a sexist jerk.'  If that makes sense.  Sorry if it doesn't.  Seemed clearer in my head.

[Siha]

I think you'll find that's pretty much a definition of sexism... Double standards and all that.

 

I know too little of Fiona to have an opinion on her actually.

But what Maria said here is absolutely right. Assuming that a woman is fundamentally different (and especially "worse", "weaker", "less rational" etc. etc.) only because of her gender, that's sexism. Reality often confirms those prejudices, it's true, but that still does not justify them.

 

I know it's sexism, I just think it's sexism that comes from how society teaches us to think, rather than someone thinking 'today I'm going to be a sexist jerk.'  

 

All sexism comes from that. The rest is just a negative trait of character.

[Moirin]

I don't think it's Morrigan. Because that does not make sense in my eyes. Morrigan never willingly accepted Mythal's soul to "invade" her body. But Flemythal clearly says "A soul is not forced on the unwilling". So I see no way for Morrigan to inhabit Mythal's soul now. Also, I am not so sure if "Mytahl's soul" and "Mythal's power" can be separated. So at the end we meet Flemythal and Solas; and Flemathyl must still have Mythal's soul. If the soul had left and we only saw Flemeth there, shouldn't she die in an instant anyway? She is ancient by now and only kept alive by Mythal's soul being in her body. The moment the soul leaves the body, it collapses. So the soul should be in Solas now.

Sure, the authors said "he takes her power" but maybe that's just a matter of words and not one of meaning. 

 

I humbly disagree. I also don't think it's Morrigan and I don't think Morrigan has Mythals soul, yet. We know Mythal can survive without a body, she became a wisp to find Flemeth after all, not to mention in DA2 she says something like, "Must I have a body, they are such confining things" (or something similar). Plus, in that same stroke we learn she can store a piece herself in an object and that is enough to revive her later. Hence she seemingly can be in two places at once. Not to mention Solas' power (or perhaps some of Mythal's) seems to be separated from their souls (the orb), so we seemingly have evidence that it can happen.

 

Not to mention that drink from the well or not, become a dragon or not, Mythal does something to Morrigan both times. The only time she doesn't is with Kieran around in which case she had plenty of time to do what she did with Morrigan in that scene to him instead (yes, I've played all these possible scenarios).

 

So I don't think Morrigan got Mythal's soul in that moment but I believe she or Kieran were marked in some way for Mythal's soul to find her/him later, in order to offer her a deal or something. Considering Kieran says that Morrigan is going to be "the inheritor of the new age" I believe that is what they have planned for Morrigan.

 

Furthermore not only did the dev notes say Solas took Mythal's power but we also see a soul transfer with Kieran, and it doesn't look anything like what is going on with Solas and Flemeth in the end. Not to mention, as I've stated before, I doubt Solas would risk taking Mythal's soul, she is apparently more powerful then him and he would risk losing himself and getting overwhelmed. And considering how upset he is you "give up a piece of yourself" when you drink from the well it is somewhat hypocritical for him to do the same.

 

So why did Flemythal die in the post credit scene if he only took her power? Well, speaking simply we can look at a mage, if they use up all their power/mana they die of exhaustion or something like that, so we can probably assume that if we drain the power we kill the body.

 

Or I could be wrong and you could be right, neither of us knows for sure of course, I'm sure we'll find out sooner or later though, I just wanted to get my two cents in.    Plus we already had one possessed apostate LI in Anders and I'd rather not see that happen to another.

 

I personally am no fan of this "He wanted to tell her but chickened out" approach, but if I do assume it to be true then he obviously did not mean to leave. Now he realizes at some point that he doesn't have another option but to go and not tell anybody about his identity and plans.

 

In the end it does not even matter when he decided to break up, before the vallaslin scene or "during" it. (1) If he decided it before, maybe he wanted to give something to Lavellan as a farewell present -- being the person he is, he considers truth (in this case the truth about the vallaslin) a gift after all. Or (2) if he decided to break up because he chickened out, his decision to leave might have occurred right there or even later still.

 

I agree with the "he never actually used Lavellan or was planning to leave the whole time" thing. However I wonder if you really need to assume if the "he wanted to tell her but chickened out" is true or not. We already have word of Weekes it is true from that podcast.

 

I believe it basically went, he wanted to tell her, chickened out, contemplates giving up his mission, decides he can't give up his mission and has to cut emotional ties with Lavellan (this part Patrick Weekes already confirmed in that podcast), but I still don't think he decided to leave there.

 

At this point he still believes he is going to get the orb back, and whatever that orb does was probably his "quick fix" to whatever it is he had planned. He probably intended to use it as soon as he got it back, hence the "after the final battle all will be revealed" line, and then see if Lavellan would forgive whatever it is he was going to do, but then the orb got destroyed and then he decided to leave. "It was not supposed to happen this way."

[SnowPeaShooter]

Regarding the whole "Solas leaving Levallen" thing, personally, as a Solas romancer, I think him leaving her side for the greater good of "his people" really showed the strength in his character. I would not have liked him as much if he had succumbed to the temptation of building a "happy mortal life" with Levallen and forsaken his responsibility as an elven god.

 

The only thing I don't understand though, is that why was he so sure that he would not involve her in future events just by breaking up with her? Levallen could still find out (more) about him given the hints he dropped and possibly with the helps of Mythal's priests in her head. And/Or she, as the inquisitor, would be forced to deal with the consequences of his actions. So why not probe her attitude first, and then seek her help if she is proven receptive?

[Delphine]

Extremely minor JoH Spoiler:

Spoiler

 

Should we open a Patrick Weekes appreciation thread already?

[Taelaa]

I think there seems to be some general misunderstanding around the mage-specific flirt Solas dishes out. When he says "I have yet to see it dominated. I imagine the sight would be... fascinating", I think he's using the word dominated to mean something akin to overcome, rather than anything overtly sexual, or to do with BSDM or something. Hahah.

 

So to be fascinated by Lavellan's indomitable focus being dominated would mean Solas is suggesting he's enjoying the thought of something/someone capturing her attention so entirely as to witness her distracted/enraptured response (with him, presumably). I could be wrong, but that's my take on it.

 

Oh Solas, you smooth egg, you.

 

Ooooh yeah

[Nehn]

Solas was pretty willingly to come forward when Lavellan just made a move first... she didn't need to try THAT much. Secondly... he was yes like '' I REALLY SHOULD NOT DO THIS '' 
but the thing that we would have to win them over.. Cassandra yes but Solas... WHEN DID WE EVER WON HIM OVER? HE DUMPED US ANYWAYS AND THEY WERE NOT EVEN DATING! WE GOT ONLY SOME KISSES <.< 

 

 

it's hinted they might have done "things" together but they left that up to the player 

i'd personally prefer that they showed the scenes ... 

[Moirin]

So to be fascinated by Lavellan's indomitable focus being dominated would mean Solas is suggesting he's enjoying the thought of something/someone capturing her attention so entirely as to witness her distracted/enraptured response (with him, presumably). I could be wrong, but that's my take on it.

 

Oh Solas, you smooth egg, you.

 

Oh, you just made that flirt better for me, I wasn't much impressed with it before otherwise.

 

it's hinted they might have done "things" together but they left that up to the player 

i'd personally prefer that they showed the scenes ...

 

Same here, but I can understand why they left it up to the player in Solas' case. Of course they could have done a scene similar to Dorian's where you didn't actually have to have sex after the advances were made in order to have the romance continue.

[Nehn]

damn it all i have to go to work and theres so many replies to respond to T_T 

[Siha]

I humbly disagree. <snip>
 
Not to mention that drink from the well or not, become a dragon or not, Mythal does something to Morrigan both times. <snip>
 
but we also see a soul transfer with Kieran, and it doesn't look anything like what is going on with Solas and Flemeth in the end. <snip>
 
So why did Flemythal die in the post credit scene if he only took her power? Well, speaking simply we can look at a mage, if they use up all their power/mana they die of exhaustion or something like that, so we can probably assume that if we drain the power we kill the body.

I don't actually see how you disagree with me? I can accept that Morrigan was marked. My point is only that she does not have the soul now, I make no assumptions about the future. Simply the observation that Morrigan did not willingly agree to take in the soul so far and Flemythal saying that this is a prerequisite for a soul transfer.

What does Mythal do to Morrigan? I must have missed that.

And how does the soul transfer Kieran => Flemythal look different? She takes something from him, some light (I think to remember). Solas does the same. That the "lights" look different might just be because it's souls from different gods, different ages, different "waking stages" or something.

And why Flemeth died -- she was damn old. Already 10 years ago in DAO she needed a new body because her's started to fail. A human body can only get so old and Mythal's soul preserved it far beyond it's "best before" date. So when Mythal's soul leaves, the body fails. That seems natural to me.  
 

However I wonder if you really need to assume if the "he wanted to tell her but chickened out" is true or not. We already have word of Weekes it is true from that podcast.

I will stick to my statement. Simply because I don't just believe that something said for PR reasons afterward was surely intended beforehand. If I ignore that author's statement, I do not see this in the scene. I still do not see this obvious chickening out. So either they did a bad job at showing it or they came up with an explanation later. And because I only judge the game from what I understand from the game (I am generally not into "the author said it later"), I say "even if I assume". It might still be they actually intended it that way, sure. I just don't see the scene like that and I prefer to stick to what the game made me think and not some statement outside that game universe.

[Mims]

Definitely agree with all the comments re; Solas leaving Lavellan. Solas might be guilty of using the Inquisition [and who isn't, at the end of the game], but there was really no manipulation going on as far as their romance goes. 

 

He broke it off when he realized he'd reached the point of no return. And he couldn't make that leap. Taking out all the other elements of the relationship...that's a fairly common reason for people to break up. Solas could have easily romanced her, and then left without ever needing to go through the drama and hurt of ending it. 

 

The only thing I don't understand though, is that why was he so sure that he would not involve her in future events just by breaking up with her? Levallen could still find out (more) about him given the hints he dropped and possibly with the helps of Mythal's priests in her head. And/Or she, as the inquisitor, would be forced to deal with the consequences of his actions. So why not probe her attitude first, and then seek her help if she is proven receptive?

 

Hard to say without knowing what his goals are. It runs the gamut between:

 

She would never agree to be apart of it-----> she physically can't assist ----> he's reacting emotionally, not logically. 

 

I think two things are important to keep in mind when wondering why he doesn't just explain things. The first is just gameplay. It wouldn't have made much sense for Solas to show up in the final act and then introduce a whole other plotline. The epilogue did what it was supposed to do. Anything more than that and you'd have people feeling like the game was incomplete. So Solas's hands are tied from an out-of-character perspective. For all we know Solas comes directly back in month's time. [I don't suspect he will, but we only can see so far into the future.] 

 

The second thing is that Lavellan is not the only one Solas 'dumps', in a sense. He shoos off Cole as well. That suggests to me that either he knows that everyone will disagree with his actions, or he's attempting to spare them the consequences of associating with him.

 

Whether or not that's a realistic assessment is hard to say until we know what he's after. 

 

[edit; switched to a month as I forgot that there was a brief time skip between the credits and the next playable portion to allow for the divine election.] 

[Addai]

I didn't even know that Fiona had a lot of hate before DA:I came out. I never read Asunder but I thought she was alright in The Calling.   

And yeah, if she was a man, she probably won't be receiving as much hate as she does now. :/ In fact, a lot of characters that people seem to have such hatred for (like Anora, Bianca, Fiona, etc.) are female. Sad.

I really doubt that it's down to sexism. It is possible that she gets hate that's otherwise generally directed towards mages and elves. Over in Scuttlebutt somewhere, I hypothesized that it's a forum version of the Stanford Experiment, where normal people assume the roles of prison guards and prisoners to horrific results. Elves and mages are the underdogs in the world, and that leads to a lot of supporters, but for a number of people it prompts the opposite reaction- delighting in oppressing them still further. You don't see dedicated dwarf or rogue haters, you know?

 

It really doesn't help that Bioware does give people an idiot ball to advance the story, or "the Fade made me do it" type excuses. But they're just as likely to make caricatures in people like Lambert and Lucius, who don't receive nearly the backlash that Fiona does.

 

I think romancedLavellan centric views of his character do him a great disservice tbh.

How so?

[Maria13]

Regarding the whole "Solas leaving Levallen" thing, personally, as a Solas romancer, I think him leaving her side for the greater good of "his people" really showed the strength in his character. I would not have liked him as much if he had succumbed to the temptation of building a "happy mortal life" with Levallen and forsaken his responsibility as an elven god.

 

The only thing I don't understand though, is that why was he so sure that he would not involve her in future events just by breaking up with her? Levallen could still find out (more) about him given the hints he dropped and possibly with the helps of Mythal's priests in her head. And/Or she, as the inquisitor, would be forced to deal with the consequences of his actions. So why not probe her attitude first, and then seek her help if she is proven receptive?

 

"I didn't say it was a good plan..." Events are forcing him to improvise an awful lot... And he is much more of a planner than an improviser...

[Colonelkillabee]

"I didn't say it was a good plan..." Events are forcing him to improvise an awful lot... And he is much more of a planner than an improviser...

From his comment about thinking too much and acting too little, I think it's more that he muddles over his options too long, then improvises with what he has available when he absolutely must act. Planners tend to be more punctual. In other words, I'd say it's the other way around.

[Moirin]

I don't actually see how you disagree with me? I can accept that Morrigan was marked. My point is only that she does not have the soul now, I make no assumptions about the future. Simply the observation that Morrigan did not willingly agree to take in the soul so far and Flemythal saying that this is a prerequisite for a soul transfer.

 

Oh, only in the sense that Solas now has Mythals soul, everything else we are pretty much agreed.

 

What does Mythal do to Morrigan? I must have missed that.

 

There is a part where she sort of waves her hand at her when she gives Morrigan the knowledge to become a dragon and then asks "Do you understand girl?", she does this even if Morrigan doesn't become a dragon and the Inquisitor drank from the well.

 

And how does the soul transfer Kieran => Flemythal look different? She takes something from him, some light (I think to remember). Solas does the same. That the "lights" look different might just be because it's souls from different gods, different ages, different "waking stages" or something.

 

With Kieran it looks more like a wisp, with Solas the light is elongated and drags on for longer instead of being a small little wisp like ball. It could be I'm grasping at straws but I feel there is a reason it looks different.

 

I will stick to my statement. Simply because I don't just believe that something said for PR reasons afterward was surely intended beforehand. If I ignore that author's statement, I do not see this in the scene. I still do not see this obvious chickening out. So either they did a bad job at showing it or they came up with an explanation later. And because I only judge the game from what I understand from the game (I am generally not into "the author said it later"), I say "even if I assume". It might still be they actually intended it that way, sure. I just don't see the scene like that and I prefer to stick to what the game made me think and not some statement outside that game universe.

 

That is fine, you are of course allowed to disagree, but I don't believe it was just a PR statement and personally, I do see it. Solas was just very smooth at hiding it. But we can agree to disagree.

[Delphine]

About Solas with dreads, my issue is that fan art showing that never really features Solas's face. It's just some elf with similar features, and he looks good with hair, but it is not Solas. I have no real idea what Solas himself would look like with dreads .... which is why I photoshopped it. And I can't quite make up my mind.

 

 

No. No no no. Just god no, not in a million years.

 

My question for Solas with dreads is... why dreads?

 

I remember people saying it's "rebellious" but not in this setting it isn't.

 

Rebellious? What the hell makes dreads rebellious? Isn't that a bit stereotyping? Ugh.

I personally see no reason why Solas would wear dreads to this day, to be honest. Maybe there is, though.

[Shari'El]

About Solas with dreads, my issue is that fan art showing that never really features Solas's face. It's just some elf with similar features, and he looks good with hair, but it is not Solas. I have no real idea what Solas himself would look like with dreads .... which is why I photoshopped it. And I can't quite make up my mind.

 

 

Well I found this after some searching:

 

 

This is definitely Solas' face (model extracted from the game). I think the photoshopped picture looks a bit weird since it has lightening incompatibility as well as the fact that that screenie of Solas always looked a bit off in my tastes.

 

Belongs to http://elyhumanoid.d...eviantart.com/ 

[SnowPeaShooter]

Hard to say without knowing what his goals are. 

 

Definitely true. I understand that he (and the game devs) could not have revealed more from a gameplay perspective, still can't help to think more about it on a story perspective though. I guess I just reeeeeeaaaaally want more Solas content XD

[BoscoBread]

All he did was end the relationship. Poorly, but still.

 

If one feels used or violated from that, I think that's their problem really. After all, Lavellan advanced on him. His words before everything was "No, I shouldn't."

 

Hurt and resentful shouldn't be confused with violated or used.

It's sad that it had to be said, but I'm glad he clarified...AGAIN...that the romance is secondary to his character(which is how it should be).  Also, i never felt manipulated.  I believed he was sincere.  Dude was distraught when he dumped me. IT was clear he didn't want to.  Was I happy about it, no, but still.  The guy was an emo mess at the end.  So double yest to "hurt and resentful shouldnt be confused with violated or used".  

[Colonelkillabee]

Rebellious? What the hell makes dreads rebellious? Isn't that a bit stereotyping? Ugh.

I personally see no reason why Solas would wear dreads to this day, to be honest. Maybe there is, though.

LOL it is indeed.

[Addai]

"I didn't say it was a good plan..." Events are forcing him to improvise an awful lot... And he is much more of a planner than an improviser...

I wouldn't say he's a planner. He's a thinker. His wanting to analyze every angle of a situation is a hindrance to making an actual plan, as he'll admit when challenged about elves.

 

From his comment about thinking too much and acting too little, I think it's more that he muddles over his options too long, then improvises with what he has available when he absolutely must act. Planners tend to be more punctual. In other words, I'd say it's the other way around.

Yes, exactly.

 

That is fine, you are of course allowed to disagree, but I don't believe it was just a PR statement and personally, I do see it. Solas was just very smooth at hiding it. But we can agree to disagree here.

Siha and I had a similar discussion about the Witcher, with Geralt and Triss. Some people take a "death of the author" approach that rules out any outside input on character motives. Whatever they see in the game, that's the only thing that matters. After Origins, we in the forum had these discussions about Loghain, since Gaider came in the forum at one point and gave a lot of insight into his inner workings. Some people wouldn't even consider what he said, and also called it PR.

 

To me, the writer commenting on character motivations is incredibly interesting and adds to the story. They're limited by word budget and pixel animation and sometimes, things don't come across that were intended. Also with Loghain, the writer admitted they wanted to give casual players a bad guy to hate, so the depiction in the game is deliberately skewed (ugh). Complex characters suffer the most from having to be packaged up in a commercialized product. But, that's what keeps us in forums for months discussing their different angles, so I'll take it.

 

And the dreads are back...

[Mims]

I think we already established that he chose the dreads after being called the 'Dread Wolf'. He took it literally! 

 

But in all honesty. Dreads just look cool, and fit in with the original design of him being more of a druid looking character. Artistically dreads tend to read as a hairstyle that doesn't need much upkeep. Messy, but not careless. That doesn't exactly match with reality, but I would say that's what they were going for.

 

It seems like Solas's character changed during production. In a lot of the early concept art he seems much more mischievous and sneaky. I don't think he was originally intended to be more stoic and intellectual. So at a certain point the hair just didn't suit him. 

 

...also because DA:I is awful at rendering hair, and I don't even want to think about what dreadlocks would look like ingame. 

[yetanothername]

Simply because I don't just believe that something said for PR reasons afterward was surely intended beforehand. If I ignore that author's statement, I do not see this in the scene. I still do not see this obvious chickening out. So either they did a bad job at showing it or they came up with an explanation later.

 

(Emphasis mine)

 

I think it's the former, honestly. I wasn't playing a "we're going to be together forever" Lavellan but one who pretty much took him at his word with regards to the "this is going to have a bad end" warning. He just took her at hers, also - "willing to risk it." So by the time they got to that scene, she'd been checking out all these dissonant comments adding up over time to "what is this guy's damage?" Offering the *dramatic tone* truth was a "finally!" moment.

 

Instead, he kinda glances down and rushes over it. "So what I'm about to tell you... the truth. YOUR FACE!" was a jarring head-tilt of "was that what you were going to say?" even before I read the comment, so that's kinda what I got out of it.

 

However, fully acknowledge that PR explanations are handwaved all the time and that what I perceived in a playthrough does not support or kill a particular stance. Just sayin' that there might be a few others who saw it with a different view!

 

(Edit just to add I was not spoiled for ending, heh.)

[Moirin]

Instead, he kinda glances down and rushes over it. "So what I'm about to tell you... the truth. YOUR FACE!" was a jarring head-tilt of "was that what you were going to say?" even before I read the comment, so that's kinda what I got out of it.

 

 

That's the part I linked and meant when I said I do see it, but I guess it was missed that it was a link, so: SOURCE.