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[Colonelkillabee]

Anora, Bianca, Fiona, Sera, Vivienne, Leliana even... I don't know about you guys, but I see a pattern here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

People like to hate on strong females having their own personal agencies and not prioritizing others over themselves, I guess.

I don't think so...

 

Sera and Leliana are morons, and besides that, many of the people who dislike these characters love Cassandra, Morrigan, Wynne, whatever.

 

I personally like Vivienne and Fiona. Morrigan of course, LOVE Cassandra. See? I doubt there's many out there just hating on characters for being strong females. Why even bother with the series when females cover most of it almost.

 

And anyway, there's hate out there for males too, Anders, Loghain, Sebastian, even Alistair somehow, Carver, Solas, Blackwall. There's no pattern.

[MoonDrummer]

Anora, Bianca, Fiona, Sera, Vivienne, Leliana even... I don't know about you guys, but I see a pattern here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

People like to hate on strong females having their own personal agencies and not prioritizing others over themselves, I guess.

I disagree with this.

Anora and Vivienne are slimy politicians, I dislike them for the same reason I dislike Cameron and Miliband. I don't really even dislike Anora to be honest.

I like Fiona, but I can see why giving your army into slavery and helping a darkspawn magister attack Haven, could make people dislike her. 

Bioware tried to hard to make me like Bianca, and it just had the opposite effect, apparently she's a better shot than Varric and a better paragon that Branka (who in my game built an army of golems), the death threat didn't help either.

 

 

Me disliking these characters has nothing to do with them being strong women, Lelianna, Morrigan, Wynne, Velanna, Shale and Isseya are some of my favourite characters in the series.

[BoscoBread]

I don't think so...

 

Sera and Leliana are morons, and besides that, many of the people who dislike these characters love Cassandra, Morrigan, Wynne, whatever.

 

I personally like Vivienne and Fiona. LOVE Cassandra. See? I doubt there's many out there just hating on characters for being strong females. Why even bother with the series when females cover most of it almost.

 

And anyway, there's hate out there for males too, Anders, Loghain, Sebastian, even Alistair somehow, Connor, Solas, Blackwall. There's no pattern.

Agreed. I think we're seeing a pattern because BW actually - and wonderfully - has a lot of well written women characters as opposed to other games.  And they are complex.   There is a lot of love for Leliana too, more than hate.  The only reason she is back is because she is the MOST popular DA companion.  That's all.   I DON'T GET IT. I personally find her dull.  

 

I truly really only hate a few characters: Cullen, Branka, Anders.  

 

That's all 

[Colonelkillabee]

Agreed. I think we're seeing a pattern because BW actually - and wonderfully - has a lot of well written women characters as opposed to other games.  And they are complex.   There is a lot of love for Leliana too, more than hate.  The only reason she is back is because she is the MOST popular DA companion.  That's all.   I DON'T GET IT. I personally find her dull.  

 

I truly really only hate a few characters: Cullen, Branka, Anders.  

 

That's all 

I despised her ever since the sacred ashes mission when it confirmed what I already thought, which was she brought up so called visions for attention, but I knew she was off her nut from the beginning. Even if not, yes she has the same effect Bianca had on me. Supposed to be liked obviously, but that only pushed me away. Boring to me.

 

That heavy ass lisp didn't help either, lol.

 

Cullen I have nothing against. Honestly he's just meh to me, but he amuses me from time to time at the wartable and some cutscenes. Better than I initially thought he'd be but still not much for me to say about him really. Honestly, I resisted the idea of Hawke being my general, back when that was the rumor, but they did a pretty good job with him/her this game. Might've been more interesting. Might have. Though my Hawke really shouldn't be commanding anyone, lol.

 

At least they didn't give me sebastian... Oh God I'd riot.

[Felya87]

I quite like my Inquistors. Unlike with Hawke, I would not mind play them again.

 

Anora, Bianca, Fiona, Sera, Vivienne, Leliana even... I don't know about you guys, but I see a pattern here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

People like to hate on strong females having their own personal agencies and not prioritizing others over themselves, I guess.

 

 

 

Not totally true. I think there is this "plot armour" who irks many. And for now, only female characters have it. Leliana actually came back from the dead, Morrigan is close too (she survive a murder knife in Witch Hunt)

Tallis

Isabela

Bianca

All walk on the MaySue street, and that is what many don't like. Some walk it maintaining the love of the people (Isabela, Morrigan)

A good chunk of people may not like those characters because they are women, since usually they like others famale character who are strong women the same. many love Morrigan, but can't stand Leliana. Some love Aveline but dislike Isabela. Some like Cassandra but don't like Sera.

 

And there is just the same hate for male characters as well. But those characters usually have a way to end up dead or similar, so those who hate them can simply bash/kill them in their game, and satisfy their hate in gameplay.

[RoyalRel]

IMO, all the characters in the Dragon Age series are really well written, otherwise they wouldn't generate strong emotional responses from the players. Which I appreciate, honestly. I'd take a Sera or Vivienne any time of day over a bland character, because while I may not agree with their views, the writers gave them a personality which makes them feel real.

I think it mostly comes down to players expectations, because if you are fed up with certain real life characters (we've all met them at one point or another in our lifetimes, lol), you would want a game that offers you a break from said encounters in real life. Some people on the other hand might appreciate exactly the fact that the characters emulate real life so well. To each their own.

[Delphine]

You guys are missing my point.

What you guys don't see, is that I haven't seen any male character be the source of as much forum hate than Sera, Bianca or Fiona ever have.

It's not about whether they're likable or not, it's about how the response to questionable female characters is so vocally loud compared to the response to questionable male characters.

 

Sometimes I believe that if Gaspard happened to be a female, people would probaby hate him as much (if not more) as they like to hate on Celene.

[BoscoBread]

I despised her ever since the sacred ashes mission when it confirmed what I already thought, which was she brought up so called visions for attention, but I knew she was off her nut from the beginning. Even if not, yes she has the same effect Bianca had on me. Supposed to be liked obviously, but that only pushed me away. Boring to me.

 

That heavy ass lisp didn't help either, lol.

 

Cullen I have nothing against. Honestly he's just meh to me, but he amuses me from time to time at the wartable and some cutscenes. Better than I initially thought he'd be but still not much for me to say about him really. Honestly, I resisted the idea of Hawke being my general, back when that was the rumor, but they did a pretty good job with him/her this game. Might've been more interesting. Might have. Though my Hawke really shouldn't be commanding anyone, lol.

 

At least they didn't give me sebastian... Oh God I'd riot.

I think I hate Cullen more because Gaider does NOT like his character and did NOT want to put him back in the game.  He was never supposed to come back - he was written out in DA:O and it was supposed to stay that way.  It is clear from interviews that they were strong-armed into bringing him back   by marketing because of how popular he was.  Gaider refers to him as a "nice haircut" and Cullen's writing suffers because of it.  His back-story is whitewashed and his "this is ridiculous" begins to grate when you're looking for advice.  He actually doesn't come off that well in the DLC...which makes me pleased.  I think it would be a great character development if they turned him into this total garbage person that you have to deal with. Not evil, just totally garbo and you're like 'i want to fire you but i can't'.  I'm being honest. I want a loathsome character running around - Cullen is perfect because he's so beautiful.  Cullen is a good general...I GUESS.  

 

What I find interesting about him as a choice, is that it speaks to Cass' initial idealism about building the Inquisition. She's so starry eyed by stories and kind of gets swept up in the romance of them that she sort of doesn't do a lot of checking.  So she picks this dashing commander to lead the army forgetting he's got about 500 years of baggage and issues.  It obviously all comes crashing down for her with the Seekers, but it's an interesting way to view her.  

 

Hawke as general. LOL.  

 

I would want Sebastian back just to kick around. Funny when trolled. 

[Illyria]

Anora, Bianca, Fiona, Sera, Vivienne, Leliana even... I don't know about you guys, but I see a pattern here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

People like to hate on strong females having their own personal agencies and not prioritizing others over themselves, I guess.

 

 

Sexism always and ONLY comes from society's conditioning, and as such, there can't be a "real" or "false" sexism. If society teaches us that the type of traits Fiona has are good in a man but bad in a woman, then it is the basic definition of sexism. Internalized sexism is one of the most dangerous type, in its most subtle forms, really harmful as hell. The worst type of sexist people to argue with, while being a feminist, is never the kind who are like "today I'm going to be a sexist jerk", but always, ALWAYS the type who are like "I'm a feminist, but", or "I think women should be equal but".

False friends to feminism are a billion times worse than openly jerky opponents to it.

 

Agreed.  I blame how badly I phrased stuff on being ill today.  Sorry for any confusion.

[Colonelkillabee]

You guys are missing my point.

What you guys don't see, is that I haven't seen any male character be the source of as much forum hate than Sera, Bianca of Fiona ever have.

That's because you're new

 

I gave examples. There's been enough hate floating around for dudes, but to be honest, not as many male characters have had such great impact on the story as Bianca, Fiona, Leliana and Anora. And the ones that have, Loghain and Anders, they got huge amounts of hate, certainly more than Bianca Fiona, Leliana and Anora combined.

 

Some might say Loghain deserves it. Sure, a lot of his actions were very damnable, same for Anders'. All of these characters, male and female have reasons for the fanbase's backlash. I only disagree with how much for certain ones. Fiona, and Loghain specifically. And Vivienne.

 

There really is no pattern except that females are in the spotlight more than males it seems so naturally they get more attention, negative and positive.

[BoscoBread]

You guys are missing my point.

What you guys don't see, is that I haven't seen any male character be the source of as much forum hate than Sera, Bianca of Fiona ever have.

It's not about whether they're likable or not, it's about how the response to questionable female characters is so vocally loud compared to the response to questionable male characters.

 

Sometimes I believe that if Gaspard happened to be a female, people would probaby hate him as much (if not more) as they like to hate on Celene.

Ok. I see. That's unfortunately going to always be a problem and is a problem for ALL games. not just dragon age.  Though I think Anders gets a lot of hate. A LOT. His discussions do get shut down though because the anders cheerleaders are so aggressively defensive that threads have to be locked.   

[yetanothername]

You guys are missing my point.

What you guys don't see, is that I haven't seen any male character be the source of as much forum hate than Sera, Bianca of Fiona ever have.

It's not about whether they're likable or not, it's about how the response to questionable female characters is so vocally loud compared to the response to questionable male characters.

 

Sometimes I believe that if Gaspard happened to be a female, people would probaby hate him as much (if not more) as they like to hate on Celene.

 

I just think it's more complicated than that. I would also add Anders to the hate list, and Loghain, which actually kinda ties in to the below...

 

There are also parts of characters which can be interpreted as being intended to evoke an empathetic response, which can have the opposite effect when someone disagrees with their actions or dislikes their personality. For example, perhaps someone really dislikes Morrigan's snark or picking on Alistair. The moments of dialogue with her that leave her open to impression or reflection may have on some a warming effect, like ah, I relate more to this person. Another may actually dislike her more because it's not an excuse, or any number of other reasons. I love Solas as a character but I can certainly understand why people have other views on him, or only disliked him more with further insight into his head.

 

Gaspard, just to kick back to that, doesn't really have any secret sympathetic backstory. I'm not suggesting this makes him better or worse, or that it makes CELENE better or worse, only that I've seen people dislike Celene more for looking more into her head (courtesy of novel), because it's easy to say what someone should have done instead of what happened, like they're weaker for it. Same with Solas, really... but it's definitely a really difficult subject to discuss anywhere, let alone forums and other social media! hehe

 

(ninja'ed 'cause I type too much. This is why I'm a professional lurker, people.)

[Cee]

I do love the Cole comforts Lavellan post break up headcanon that everyone seems to have accepted. 

 

For my Lavellan, my headcanon is it's Dorian, mostly, and then Cole. But she doesn't want to forget or anything, of course. Dorian is pretty much my Lavellan's best friend. It's the oddest friendship from the details, son of a Tevinter magister and a Dalish elf, but he tries to make sure she's taken care of. He notices she hasn't been sleeping much or eating enough. He takes tea with her and listens, uses humor, sometimes takes her mind off things. Others don't quite notice, and that can have consequences (planning out a short fic like this).

 

Cole helps too. He comforts her. He remembers Solas and knows she still loves him deeply. He knows her pain, but she has asked somehow, to keep it. She's a strong person, and she keeps completing her duties, and this relationship ending isn't going to break her, but it's still a deep pain with lots of questions left.

[Colonelkillabee]

I think I hate Cullen more because Gaider does NOT like his character and did NOT want to put him back in the game.  He was never supposed to come back - he was written out in DA:O and it was supposed to stay that way.  It is clear from interviews that they were strong-armed into bringing him back   by marketing because of how popular he was.  Gaider refers to him as a "nice haircut" and Cullen's writing suffers because of it.  His back-story is whitewashed and his "this is ridiculous" begins to grate when you're looking for advice.  He actually doesn't come off that well in the DLC...which makes me pleased.  I think it would be a great character development if they turned him into this total garbage person that you have to deal with. Not evil, just totally garbo and you're like 'i want to fire you but i can't'.  I'm being honest. I want a loathsome character running around - Cullen is perfect because he's so beautiful.  Cullen is a good general...I GUESS.  

 

What I find interesting about him as a choice, is that it speaks to Cass' initial idealism about building the Inquisition. She's so starry eyed by stories and kind of gets swept up in the romance of them that she sort of doesn't do a lot of checking.  So she picks this dashing commander to lead the army forgetting he's got about 500 years of baggage and issues.  It obviously all comes crashing down for her with the Seekers, but it's an interesting way to view her.  

 

Hawke as general. LOL.  

 

I would want Sebastian back just to kick around. Funny when trolled. 

There's several things that ticked me off when it came to the point you brought up about Cass.

 

Both of them have to do with her choices for the Inquisition. Both of them are because of what the writers intended being effected by the audience.

 

She seems to have such admiration for Hawke and Hawke was supposed to be a bigger character, we know this, but he wasn't. So all this Champion talk and admiration, and news that he was supposed to be inquisitor? Then there's Cullen and everything you just said about him being absolutely true. He's barely done enough to prove he's capable of running a whole army... They tried to make him more heroic by the end of Dragon Age 2, that was nice to see the progression from Origins, I'll give them that, but the jump from that to our general is so forced. It's like... Cass. Better taste in men, please! Lol. If Hawke's a dude anyway, but seriously, it's like you said, she's so star struck over people from Kirkwall... and I have no idea why except that she bought into Varric's tales way too easily.

 

It's the one weak moment she had that I don't like too much, but no one is perfect of course. I still love her It was just a weakpoint in the writer's storytelling for her and likely just not delivered well because of last minute changes and things forced on them.

[yetanothername]

Ah, well, I know you hardly need to see a Cass Defense Squad, but I could see her picks, not just because anyone grew a lot in the games but because in the Inquisition's little fledgling state they didn't have a lot of options with everyone choosing a side. Cullen was experienced and realized he couldn't just blindly follow the Order anymore, exactly the kind of people they were scooping up. General, well, I dunno, but at least at the start there weren't many people out there. Same with Hawke - I didn't take that so much as admiration for him/her, as no matter what everyone thought of them, they'd been in the center of the storm, so to speak. They'd hoped Hawke could bridge the gap by having had a role in it - just my interpretation.

 

As you say, no one's perfect, so she's still a strong character to me even in your interpretation, I'm just kinda waffling on if that's how I see it, too

[Cee]

I just think it's more complicated than that. I would also add Anders to the hate list, and Loghain, which actually kinda ties in to the below...

 

There are also parts of characters which can be interpreted as being intended to evoke an empathetic response, which can have the opposite effect when someone disagrees with their actions or dislikes their personality. For example, perhaps someone really dislikes Morrigan's snark or picking on Alistair. The moments of dialogue with her that leave her open to impression or reflection may have on some a warming effect, like ah, I relate more to this person. Another may actually dislike her more because it's not an excuse, or any number of other reasons.

 

I didn't even begin to remotely like Morrigan until near the end of Inquisition. In Origins, she came off as snarky, a know it all, and mean and she always picked on Alistair (who I loved and well, so did my Warden). She also disapproved of everything.  I mainly kept her around in my party because she was useful and then she even left before the job was done. And other reasons.

 

Inquisition sees her learn that maybe her assumptions aren't always right, plus in my game, Kieran had given her a different perspective. I warmed to her more, even though I have player resentment on my Warden's behlaf that she has Alistair's child and he and the Warden can't have any.

 

I understand that, given the possible interactions with Solas, people might have a different view of him. Especially if he has low approval and can get downright nasty. Since he can't leave before then for plot reasons, his dislike path has both a lot of venom and a lot of perspective on him and his views. It's not heavily loaded in one direction or another.

[yetanothername]

Apologies if my example came off as defending a particular view of Morrigan or anyone else - I only meant to add that the moments open to empathy/sympathy in characters already disliked can often provoke the opposite reaction, gaining even more dislike (or rivalry, if you will!). I'm not sure if I explained that well (and I definitely did not mean to imply this was the case with everyone!), but yeah. (Also disregard if I misunderstood Text. *waves hand* Better safe than sorry.)

[Cee]

The example was fine but I chimed in because that WAS exactly my experience. Even when she showed up at the ball, I was like ugh, does she have to?.

[Colonelkillabee]

Ah, well, I know you hardly need to see a Cass Defense Squad, but I could see her picks, not just because anyone grew a lot in the games but because in the Inquisition's little fledgling state they didn't have a lot of options with everyone choosing a side. Cullen was experienced and realized he couldn't just blindly follow the Order anymore, exactly the kind of people they were scooping up. General, well, I dunno, but at least at the start there weren't many people out there. Same with Hawke - I didn't take that so much as admiration for him/her, as no matter what everyone thought of them, they'd been in the center of the storm, so to speak. They'd hoped Hawke could bridge the gap by having had a role in it - just my interpretation.

 

As you say, no one's perfect, so she's still a strong character to me even in your interpretation, I'm just kinda waffling on if that's how I see it, too

 

Even if she was starstruck and thus made a mediocre choice for the inquisition, I'd still say she's strong. My Skyrim writing roleplay character that I loosely based my Inquisitor off of is like that, he's obsessed with legends and stories, and it works for the most part, but his more practical wife sees things he overlooks because his mind's up on flights of fancy and in the stars.

 

Cass however is not really anything like that and is very practical, besides when it comes to her romantic side (Sort of), so I'd have to say it's a case of her working with what she had at hand, and X factors having little to do with her character, but outside influences.

 

I just meant that initially, without looking at it from a metagame POV basically, that this is how it came off. It just kinda irks me she had these characteristics, admiration for a guy barely deserving of it, and so on, because things changed for the development team at the last minute.

[MoonDrummer]

You guys are missing my point.

What you guys don't see, is that I haven't seen any male character be the source of as much forum hate than Sera, Bianca of Fiona ever have.

It's not about whether they're likable or not, it's about how the response to questionable female characters is so vocally loud compared to the response to questionable male characters.

 

Sometimes I believe that if Gaspard happened to be a female, people would probaby hate him as much (if not more) as they like to hate on Celene.

I think I agree with you there tbh. In general the BSN is just a pretty hateful place lol, I'm always surprised to see characters it never even dawned on me to dislike being hated on. I mean how can people hate Teagan? Best character in TME by a million miles! 

[Addai]

Anora, Bianca, Fiona, Sera, Vivienne, Leliana even... I don't know about you guys, but I see a pattern here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
People like to hate on strong females having their own personal agencies and not prioritizing others over themselves, I guess.

Bah. People hate on Loghain and Anders, too, and both Morrigan and Leliana are quite popular even though they have their detractors. This kind of charge is like horoscopes or fortune cookie pronouncements. There's something vague and generally true, but if you want to see a pattern, that's what you'll see. "You'll have a new opportunity this week." "That character is female and people don't like her, must be sexism."
 

Sexism always and ONLY comes from society's conditioning, and as such, there can't be a "real" or "false" sexism. If society teaches us that the type of traits Fiona has are good in a man but bad in a woman, then it is the basic definition of sexism. Internalized sexism is one of the most dangerous type, in its most subtle forms, really harmful as hell.

So is internalized feminism. It teaches you to see sexism under every rock, and to expect it, which IMO sometimes creates that very result. I think it's very harmful for human relations. I'd much prefer to focus on our common humanity. Likewise, a good female character is a good character and a bad one is a bad one. Disliking female characters for whatever reason is no more pernicious than liking or disliking a male.
 

The DLC did a much better job weaving the story into the zone.

*snip*

You make a good case. Ergh, I dislike the PC gameplay so much and with what I've heard about the combat difficulty spike, I don't look forward to the tedium. I'll wait for the price to drop or until I'm ready for a replay. Witcher 3 will be out soon anyway.

[Colonelkillabee]

I think I agree with you there tbh. In general the BSN is just a pretty hateful place lol, I'm always surprised to see characters it never even dawned on me to dislike being hated on. I mean how can people hate Teagan? Best character in TME by a million miles! 

Who the HELL hates my boy Teagan? Dude's got swag popping out his ears! He's got moves!

 

"Teeeaggggaaaaaaan!"

[Taelaa]

Yes.

 

Someone recorded it

 

 

I drank from the well and when I went to Val Royeaux post game, I couldn't find that conversation. Noticed in the video that the dreamer has Abelas' voice though!

[DarthEmpress]

I have to say I really wanted Zevran to come back just to see how he'd interact with Solas.  I've seen in fics that Solas is portrayed as annoyed by Zevran's laissez faire attitude and flirting :3  I still think he'd try to reach out to him like he does with Sera, but I can definitely see him getting tired real quick of Zev's attitudes towards life.  But I can also see him having respect for him - Zev's been through a lot emotionally and physically, almost akin to a slavery of a different kind.  Solas abhors that stuff and I can see him feeling remorse for him, just another driving Solas to do whatever it is he's planning to do with the elves.

[Taelaa]

Actually, kind of yeah, he did, because Solas didn't explicitly tell her he'd be gone, and Lavellan might've expected a marriage or an equally lengthy relationship - maybe years together, maybe many years, maybe their whole lives. So, yes, that's a classic "he used her to get warmth and love and closeness, but she would have absolutely loved to know and might've said no if she knew he'd be gone at the end of the war".

 

I'm not worried about that as much, though. It's just after Jaws of Hakkon, it seems more and more probable that elven gods were spirits(demons). And while I'm absolutely okay with "Hey, I had a romance with an elf!", "Hey, I had a romance with an ancient elf!" and "Hey, I had a romance with an ancient elven god!", I'm totally not okay with "Hey, I romanced a demon. Choice. Spirit." That has a sense of wrongness I'm not comfortable with. Solas = god? Great. Solas = elven god? Wonderful. Solas = an elven god who has extreme kinship/massive knowledge about spirits? Excellent. Solas = an ancient spirit/demon,? No, sorry, that's a hugely uncomfortable moment and a very nasty lie.

 

He's actually up front about his leaving from the beginning. One of the first conversations you can have with him, he says, "I will stay then. At least until the breach has been closed."

 

I guess we'll have to wait to find out what the gods really are. At this point I'm leaning toward powerful mages that may or may not have had spirit companions at some point.