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[BoscoBread]

Why does Solas disapprove of the Grey Wardens method of killing the Old Gods?

I've heard something about the pantheons being related to the Old Gods (not sure about that theory)

How else can you end the blight without killing the archdemon? What does he expect people to do? 

Multiple theories have cropped up:

1. The Old Gods were something...more. Something that Solas knows about and they were locked away for a reason. 

2. Blight magic is nothing to be trifiled with and the Grey Wardens plan is pretty much like Cullens 'beat it was a hammer and maybe it will die'.  Or  'let's randomly manipulate the blight to see if that will fix things'.  We know what happens when you try to purposefully wake or kill an Archdemon(the architect) - it starts a blight.   Solas is all about questioning and research, so to go in blindly with no thought of the consequence and no recognition that it could be catastrophic in the future, he will disapprove. 

[Delphine]

Gratuitous Vine of my Lavellan after Solas broke up with her.

Replace the dog pictures with Storvacker ones.

 

https://vine.co/v/Og5AFDFz6aI

[Nehn]

And on that topic ... there's only what? Two Old Gods left? What the hell happens when they're all dead? Could there be an unending blight? 

[Siha]

We might actually be going that route if what I said about the Grey Wardens and their killing of Old Gods is true. The Elderscrolls does this to an extent, so it's possible Bioware could take this approach. They didn't mind taking a popular religious theme and challenging everything you believe. I never thought they'd have the balls to tackle belief in this game, but they did and I love that the most about Inquisition.

 
I fear I am not familiar with your theory.
However, I also fear that the second bit was lost on me. I never felt anything I had believed in to be challenged. The Maker is not challenged, the gods aren't either. The mark not being Divine sent did not surprise me because I refused the Herald thingy from the start. The vallaslin did not surprise me because I, Siha, always refused to have them because all my knowledge (before Giton posted that one bit about an African tribe) of facial markings implied they meant something bad. So for me no faith was shaken, unfortunately. But for all who the game did show this to: it's cool and I envy you.
 

Reven is probably the closest BW has come to making the PC an antagonist. The idea would make an interesting game especially if it starts with all the usual RPG trappings of a hero's story like being recruited, finding companions etc.

 
My problem with Reven is that she is, after all, the hero (or villian, if she chooses to be). What they revealed is in the past, not related to her current incarnation. So this does not really count so much for me. It was a nice twist, but it is not exactly the same Taelaa mentioned.
 

Why does Solas disapprove of the Grey Wardens method of killing the Old Gods?
I've heard something about the pantheons being related to the Old Gods (not sure about that theory)
How else can you end the blight without killing the archdemon? What does he expect people to do?

I think the method you mean is the demon army? Well, Solas just doesn't like the demon army. The devil that we know.... you know? Unleashing a demon army, a potentially greater evil that nobody knows anything about and that cannot be controlled? Too dangerous, too stupid.
So I think at least.

[Colonelkillabee]

Also, Addai made a comment that was much simpler and practical and I think it's another possibility too, which is to imagine what would happen if all the old gods were gone, and you had who knows how many darkspawn without a song in their heads to drive them down in search of them, to give them purpose... who knows what they'd do after that, but if the song is the only thing keeping them digging down...

[Giton]

Yes. YES.  I also love seeing the companions challenged.  I'm not going to rehash my love of Cassandra's strength of faith and what a double edged sword it is. BUT I LOVE IT.

 

It actually feels meaningful to play with your religious beliefs in this game.  It's been fun and I'm glad the Keep recognizes that.  Also, hellspiraling at the end over Corypheus "Dumat hear me now, if you exist, if you every truly existed..." then to read the codexes in game to see how sad and forlorn he was when the gods went silent. Omg...even at the end that doubt/but that sliver of faith.  So powerful. I love my Tevinter Magisters. 

MAGISTER HELLSPIRAL!!!!

 

Office mate: What are you doing?

Me: Just leave me here to DIE!!

Office mate: What?

Me: (Hisses, sinks back into my garbage quicksand to cry about Corypheus)

 

Thanks, Kissiebear. 

[Illyria]

Trying to romance Sera while being a Mage Lavellan was a pain in the ass, definitely. You're constantly reminded that you're a mage and that you're an elf, every damn conversation with her, often relates to that.

It's like trying to be with a guy who'd say "I hate fat people, you're fat but you're ok, I like you", or "I hate black people, you're black but I like you, you're ok". I mean... thanks? Ugh. My first Lavellan was either REALLY desperately into Sera, or was full of self-hatred in order for me to justify their relationship.

 

I could put up with that if it actually seemed like Sera was into a mage or elf Inky, which doesn't seem to be the case in the early flirts.  Fenris, while disliking mages, is clearly into Hawke from the moment she starts flirting with him, and a mage!Hawke/Fenris relationship (even on a pro-mage playthrough) works pretty well, even if it's hard work to get Fenris up to full friendship.

[BoscoBread]

And on that topic ... there's only what? Two Old Gods left? What the hell happens when they're all dead? Could there be an unending blight? 

That's the assumption. Morrigan seems to think so and I think Solas does. 

 

They both recognize that initially, the Grey Warden plan was necessary because blights could go on for decades, but they've had enough time and they need to start figuring out an alternative. Or someobody does.  The issue is, that darkspawn are controlled by the Old Gods. Their one purpose is to find an Old God and release it -- they hear it through "The Song". So that's why they hang out in the deep roads.  So what happens when the song stops?  Well, we saw with the Mother - who was cut off from it - they go totally apeshit. So...not a good thing. 

 

Ninja-ed by Colonel

Modifié par Kissiebear, 30 mars 2015 - 04:51 .

[Nehn]

Here's my theory on it:

 

http://forum.bioware...-us-all-theory/

 

I need to update it, but that's my gist. Killing them likely won't stop the problem of the blights and might even make things worse.

It might be because just stupid or in a public place (classroom waiting for class to start), but I can't really follow your theory

 

Can you summarize it? 

[Colonelkillabee]

 
I fear I am not familiar with your theory.
However, I also fear that the second bit was lost on me. I never felt anything I had believed in to be challenged. The Maker is not challenged, the gods aren't either. The mark not being Divine sent did not surprise me because I refused the Herald thingy from the start. The vallaslin did not surprise me because I, Siha, always refused to have them because all my knowledge (before Giton posted that one bit about an African tribe) of facial markings implied they meant something bad. So for me no faith was shaken, unfortunately. But for all who the game did show this to: it's cool and I envy you.
 

I see, yes it depends on the person and story, etc.

 

It wasn't about the Maker necessarily for me, more like faith in yourself that was challenged.

 

I really believed at one point that this game was going to introduce Andraste finally and that I was the Herald, after falling out of the fade and so on. When the spirit turned out looking like the Divine, I was rather disappointed, even though now I still don't think it's really the Divine, but it's also not the proof my character had hoped to find. Even when there's nothing to prove your faith wrong, searching and finding nothing after a while will start to make one doubt when you were so sure you'd found proof of the divine. It's disheartening, but when you rediscover that faith again after so much doubt, it's even more meaningful in the end. Both faith in Andraste for my Inquisitor, and faith in himself, that whether it was divine intervention that he stumbled in that room or not, he is as Cassandra said, exactly what they needed most and when they needed it.

 

There's also the Dalish religion and history, which even though they found things suggesting the existence of gods, it still was completely different from what they believed. Which would almost be worse than finding out what you believed didn't exist. Depending on how you look at it.

[Cee]

Trying to romance Sera while being a Mage Lavellan was a pain in the ass, definitely. You're constantly reminded that you're a mage and that you're an elf, every damn conversation with her, often relates to that.

It's like trying to be with a guy who'd say "I hate fat people, you're fat but you're ok, I like you", or "I hate black people, you're black but I like you, you're ok". I mean... thanks? Ugh. My first Lavellan was either REALLY desperately into Sera, or was full of self-hatred in order for me to justify their relationship.

 

TOP Solas:

 

Source: http://tevinity.tumb...183/im-so-sorry

 

That looks like a bad smell from this angle.


As far as Sera goes, I flirted with her a bit on my mage Lavellan (even though she's marked for Solas) and it is kind of painful, isn't it? I quickly discovered on my canon rogue that it wouldn't work because I was RPing her Dalish identity and I'm glad, since I later read what happens if you don't renounce it all.

 

While at the end of the game, my canon has undergone lots of character development and questions a lot of the things she has taken as knowledge until this point (even removing her vallaslin), she's still not going to just renounce everything. She just met Mythal in some form, after all. There's clearly something going on there.

 

And well, she's in love with Fen'Harel but obviously doesn't know that.

[phaonica]

I could put up with that if it actually seemed like Sera was into a mage or elf Inky, which doesn't seem to be the case in the early flirts.  Fenris, while disliking mages, is clearly into Hawke from the moment she starts flirting with him, and a mage!Hawke/Fenris relationship (even on a pro-mage playthrough) works pretty well, even if it's hard work to get Fenris up to full friendship.

 

Yeah, for some reason the mage!Hakwe/Fenris rivalmance really works for me, but the Lavellan!Sera romance doesn't. Maybe because Fenris (even in the rivalmance) seems like he eventually can accept mage!Hawke for what s/he is, as opposed to feeling that Sera does not.

[Colonelkillabee]

It might be because just stupid or in a public place (classroom waiting for class to start), but I can't really follow your theory

 

Can you summarize it? 

Long story short, I don't think the old gods actually are destroyed when the warden spirit and old god spirit are said to "cancel" eachother out. I think that it's harder to destroy the spirit of something so strong. Mythal was "murdered" and still lived.

 

Except, I think that killing them doesn't weaken them but frees them further, even after freed by the darkspawn, who I think they utilize purposefully to be freed from their prisons underground, and there's a few clues given that could suggest this in text.

 

Solas being the one that trapped the gods would know of the consequences of them being awakened and what it would mean. His huge reaction of them being killed suggests that something bad would happen, and his questioning of blackwall's idea that killing old gods stops blights suggests the darkspawn problem goes deeper than this simple reasoning.

[Dark_Rogue]

so is Solas going to be the next antagonist in the next game? how will the fans feel about him inevitably dying in the next game because of his status as antagonist?

 

sorry if this has been discussed to bits.

Late to the party, but I'd like to answer this one (thank the Maker for the Quote button!)

 

I had this thought a few days ago when I walked to work (my mind wanders) and I wasn't looking forward to it.  If we do have to kill him, I imagine it would be because the Inquisitor either stands in his way, unwilling to help him, or tries to stop him without a lot of wiggle room.  Since it's stated that Solas will "do anything to help his people" it makes me wonder how far he will actually go.  It's no surprise that he makes mistakes and thinks impulsively (All New Faded For Her), so what's to stop him from thinking he's doing the right thing if he's really not?  Or if he's even willing to listen to reason?

 

Another worry of mine is my Lavellan, she drank from the Well.  I felt awkward having her bound to FleMythal at first, but after the Epilogue she's now bound to Solas.  I really don't want to see her be forced into allowing him to carry out his plans if she doesn't agree.  "Bound Forever" is a romantic concept, but after the scene in the Fade with FleMythal, I'm really worried that she's going to be controlled for bad things...

 

Hopefully it won't come to that, but we shall see.  I love reading theories

[BoscoBread]

Yeah, for some reason the mage!Hakwe/Fenris rivalmance really works for me, but the Lavellan!Sera romance doesn't. Maybe because Fenris (even in the rivalmance) seems like he eventually can accept mage!Hawke for what s/he is, as opposed to feeling that Sera does not.

I feel like you'd have to "game" the relationship too much for it to be meaningful...unless you were RP-ing as a character similar to Sera.  I like Sera as a friend, but even then...I had to compromise a few of my characters own beliefs just to get her to the point where I felt like it was worth it.  With Fenris, I feel like he understands even if he hates mages, he loves Hawke.  He recognized that being a mage isn't all she is.

[Addai]

There's also the Dalish religion and history, which even though they found things suggesting the existence of gods, it still was completely different from what they believed. Which would almost be worse than finding out what you believed didn't exist. Depending on how you look at it.

I didn't really feel anything like that, but I did think it was cool on a replay when my Inquisitor said "no god helped me in Haven," then after the singing the scene cuts to Fen'Harel encouraging her to embrace her role and leading her to Skyhold.

[Uirebhiril]

 
To be honest, I never saw it as "contributing to the problems". It was more like "I tried but it was useless, I could not stop the events from happening". Or at least I, Siha, never understood that I was part of the problem myself. But that might just be me.
Apart from that I fully agree with you and I personally loved this helplessness DA2 confronted me with. "We placed our chips in all the right spots, but still lost."

 

That's one of the big reasons I actually liked DA2. You did the big heroic thing and killed stuff or whatever, but really you were just trying to live and get by. In the end Hawke still lost. They couldn't save the day. It's great being a big goddamn hero, but that only gives you one experience, one layer of emotions. The end of DA2 was a literal "well... s***" feeling, and I loved that.

 

Kind of reminds me of Taris in KotOR, if anyone recalls that. Doesn't matter who you helped or what you did while you were there. Flying away from the burning rubble of a planet was a hell of a surprise after being the hero, I have to say.

[Catfishers]

There's also the Dalish religion and history, which even though they found things suggesting the existence of gods, it still was completely different from what they believed. Which would almost be worse than finding out what you believed didn't exist. Depending on how you look at it.

 

I absolutely adored the way this game tore down everything we thought we knew about Dalish beliefs. That they were unreliable narrators for their own mythologies just really fascinated me and, I think, really gives us a lot of space for character development along that predominant theme of faith and belief.

[Delphine]

Yeah, for some reason the mage!Hakwe/Fenris rivalmance really works for me, but the Lavellan!Sera romance doesn't. Maybe because Fenris (even in the rivalmance) seems like he eventually can accept mage!Hawke for what s/he is, as opposed to feeling that Sera does not.

 

It's pretty clear Sera want mage!Lavellan to give up on parts of who she is, regardless of Lavellan's personal agency and opinion on the matter. Sera's opinion is greater and more valid, in Sera's mind, and therefore she can't accept any others than hers.

It's sad, really. I love Sera to bits, and thought she'd be my headcanon romance, but this personality trait of hers is what ruined it for me.

 

TOP Solas:

 

Source: http://fadedforher.t...st/110088425553

[Nehn]

Long story short, I don't think the old gods actually are destroyed when the warden spirit and old god spirit are said to "cancel" eachother out. I think that it's harder to destroy the spirit of something so strong. Mythal was "murdered" and still lived.

 

Except, I think that killing them doesn't weaken them but frees them further, even after freed by the darkspawn, who I think they utilize purposefully to be freed from their prisons underground, and there's a few clues given that could suggest this in text.

 

Solas being the one that trapped the gods would know of the consequences of them being awakened and what it would mean. His huge reaction of them being killed suggests that something bad would happen, and his questioning of blackwall's idea that killing old gods stops blights suggests the darkspawn problem goes deeper than this simple reasoning.

 

So then the 5th Old God wasn't "canceled" out. Its soul was taken from it so it can't come back?

Then the four "dead" ones could come back even more powerful than before? 

SO why does Morrigan not share this theory with more people? She seems to realize this

[Delphine]

He recognized that being a mage isn't all she is.

 

It might be the problem with Sera. She has such huge troubles seeing past the "being a mage" and "being an elf" thing. She wants to reduce Lavellan to those two things, but is forced to admit that she isn't what she thought she would be, at times. But even though, she'd never see Lavellan as anything else than an elf and a mage, and that saddens me way more than I'd admit.

My Lavellan really tried her best, but in the end, part of her knows that, and knows that this relationship, even if she ended the game with her, isn't bound to last.

[Colonelkillabee]

So then the 5th Old God wasn't "canceled" out. Its soul was taken from it so it can't come back?

Then the four "dead" ones could come back even more powerful than before? 

SO why does Morrigan not share this theory with more people? She seems to realize this

Right, the fifth is in their possession. I don't know that Morrigan actually understands the full import, but Flemeth seems to. Her being Mythal and their conflict with the forgotten ones/old gods makes that interesting.

 

Solas and Mythal I think are the only ones (in the story so far) that truly know what their deaths mean for the world.

 

But yea, I do think they'll be back in some capacity. In their true state, or close to it.

[Nehn]

All of this talk makes me really look forward to the hinted darkspawn dlc.

[Solas]

^ I like this theory.

[Solas]

All of this talk makes me really look forward to the hinted darkspawn dlc.

Knowing Biower in the darkspawn DLC it will be revealed that the origin of the darkspawn is All Elves' Fault