153429 réponses à ce sujet

[BoscoBread]

I absolutely adored the way this game tore down everything we thought we knew about Dalish beliefs. That they were unreliable narrators for their own mythologies just really fascinated me and, I think, really gives us a lot of space for character development along that predominant theme of faith and belief.

That's the same for any religion in the game.  All of them are unreliable.  Which is sort fo the theme. The codexes, the histories - you're trained not to trust them now. Or at least that was my take away.

 

I'm not like 'uber-Dalish' but at the same time, they did the best with what they had.  After this game and the DLC I'm just glad ALL sides - humans and elves - came off looking ridiculous.  Both are intractable in their belief systems and it has done nothing...NOTHING...but cause problems for both sides. 

[Nehn]

Knowing Biower in the darkspawn DLC it will be revealed that the origin of the darkspawn is All Elves' Fault   

Nooooooooo! Please no! T__T 

 

Okay I'm too much of an elf enthusiast.

Ir abelas. 

[BoscoBread]

Knowing Biower in the darkspawn DLC it will be revealed that the origin of the darkspawn is All Elves' Fault   

I'm hoping it's not.  I really just...have a lot of feelings about the sad plight of the ancient elvhen and Solas' sad lonely butt.  I also want the blight to be more of a force of nature. Something difficult to contain and something you would be stupid to try to control.  The great eqaulizer. So if they did start the darkspawn, it was inadvertant. they had no way of knowing. 

[Solas]

to clarify I'm not advocating that to be the case, the elves are my favorite thing :: curls around them :: 

[Colonelkillabee]

I don't want the blight to be elven in origin only because that's getting old, lol.

 

And the elf hate on these boards would go Third Reich.

[BoscoBread]

to clarify I'm not advocating that to be the case, the elves are my favorite thing :: curls around them :: 

* pat pat* i know.  i like all creatures of thedas as long as they are cool and interesting.  so ancient elvhen, the talking darkspawn, the tevinter magisters,  the avvar, that bitchy command spirit, the bear, kenric, my rock candy trash husband, that crazy old hermit in the woods, the forgotten ones, the elvhen pantheon. All are welcome to my party!

[myahele]

Why does Solas disapprove of the Grey Wardens method of killing the Old Gods?

I've heard something about the pantheons being related to the Old Gods (not sure about that theory)

How else can you end the blight without killing the archdemon? What does he expect people to do? 

Spoiler

Who knows, if Hakkon can be an example, killing an untaintainted Old God could allow it to go back to the fade and regrow.

But having the taint in them prevents that? The taint can more or less be cleansed we have Fiona, Dark Ritual and Merrill (who took the taint off of an Eluvian)

Either way, even if the Old Gods get killed and "reborn" in the fade. They won't be the same kinda like what happened to his friend, so the being that they were will still be gone

[Catfishers]

That's the same for any religion in the game.  All of them are unreliable.  Which is sort fo the theme. The codexes, the histories - you're trained not to trust them now. Or at least that was my take away.

 

That's true. But I think the inconsistencies with the Dalish beliefs are made more interesting due to the fact that we've now been slapped with the realisation that their gods are actually not only very much real, but also very much around. If the Maker had popped up mid-game I'd probably be similarly interested in Andrastian beliefs.

 

And also I just really like elves.

[Solas]

Did anyone else notice parallels between [JOH spoilers below I think JOH was the source of this lore anyway]

Spoiler

The ancient magisters trying to get into the golden city, and ancient avvar trying to climb korth's mountain?

 

Not solas-specific, sorry.

[Nehn]

I still believe the Maker could be a real thing in the game. But maybe that just comes from my personal beliefs which I rather not have a "Is the Maker real?" discussion.

[BoscoBread]

Spoiler

Who knows, if Hakkon can be an example, killing an untaintainted Old God could allow it to go back to the fade and regrow.

But having the taint in them prevents that? The taint can more or less be cleansed we have Fiona, Dark Ritual and Merrill (who took the taint off of an Eluvian)

Either way, even if the Old Gods get killed and "reborn" in the fade. They won't be the same kinda like what happened to his friend, so the being that they were will still be gone

Spoiler

can i just say i love the avvar religion - my girl was almost like 'sign me up' these people just practice - BEING PRACTICAL.  seriously...i think im gunna have her convert or whatever. they were so cool.  the whole rebirthing concept...

[Addai]

I don't want the blight to be elven in origin only because that's getting old, lol.
 
And the elf hate on these boards would go Third Reich.

It can't get much more ridiculous than it is now.

[Catfishers]

I still believe the Maker could be a real thing in the game. But maybe that just comes from my personal beliefs which I rather not have a "Is the Maker real?" discussion.

 

That's fair. To be honest, I think whether the Maker is real or not is neither here nor there at this point. But the revelation that Dalish gods are definitely and canonically real (and still up to throw down) is a big one. It's one thing to talk about gods and have faith in them based on mythologies and fables, it's another to be able to see without any shred of doubt that they do exist. It changes the whole nature of that universe (even if they may not be 'gods' per se).

[BoscoBread]

It can't get much more ridiculous than it is now.

Is it that bad?   I saw the "Admin Protected Dalish Thread" and was like 'why???'.   I don't get the hate over the elves. I really truly don't and I know it's been going on since DA:O.  

[Catfishers]

It can't get much more ridiculous than it is now.

 

I feel like I must be moving in far more elf-friendly circles. Though, admittedly, I have interacted only rarely with the fandom before now.

[myahele]

I wonder why the pantheon wanted to be venerated so much? Or is it just simply power-tripping/ drunk on power so much that they consider themselves as gods?

 

Still, I am curious about these Sun and Earth diety that predated the elvhen pantheon

[Nehn]

That's fair. To be honest, I think whether the Maker is real or not is neither here nor there at this point. But the revelation that Dalish gods are definitely and canonically real (and still up to throw down) is a big one. It's one thing to talk about gods and have faith in them based on mythologies and fables, it's another to be able to see without any shred of doubt that they do exist. It changes the whole nature of that universe (even if they may not be 'gods' per se).

 

I was going to add that someone said the revelation about the pantheons proves there is no maker

[Catfishers]

I was going to add that someone said the revelation about the pantheons proves there is no maker

 

Hmmm. I don't know about that. I don't think anything we've learned about the Pantheon necessarily invalidates the existence of the Maker. Especially if it turns out that the Elven Pantheon were nothing more than incredibly powerful immortal mages, which is a popular theory.

 

Edit: And to add to this, Corypheus aspired to godhood through the accumulation of magical power. If power and godhood can be conflated, who's to say that the Pantheon weren't just mad powerful?

[Taelaa]

I might completely misunderstand the issue, but what Taelaa wrote here has nothing to do with being submissive or dependent. What she suggested had not occurred to me before, so I cannot claim to be particularly fond of it. But now that I start to think about it I am interested. What she suggests is:

 

Give the Inquisitor too little information, throw her into a situation where she is forced to make decisions without actually being suited to do so. Let her believe -- which the player will, because we never know what will happen in the future -- that she is the hero. And then later on show that her decisions did not improve the world, quite to the contrary. I actually like this.

 

I played a game once that made an attempt. You played a wrecked FBI agent, used to be a hero but cracked due to some bad experiences. Started to drink and turn into an a**hole. Then you are tasked with saving the world, because that's what people do when they still believe in you, right? (There were some holes in the story writing, unfortunately, but let's ignore this for now.) So you set out to save the world from aliens and impress everybody, show that you still got it. But then at some point the player suddenly has to realize that it was all a hoax. He never recovered, he never was the hero. In fact, he is just that stupid a**hole everybody thought he was, and he's completely lost his marbles. (I will spare you the twist here.) So you switch characters and have to save the world in another body, even fighting that wrecked ex-agent. It was executed rather poorly (not too bad though) but I liked the basic idea.

 

What Taelaa suggested is different from the game I just talked about, but that's not the point now. I think it still goes into that direction I mentioned, it is not about being a puppet or having been unimportant all along. It is about making decisions to the best of your knowledge, only that your knowledge simply wasn't good enough.

Or assume you were actually the villain all along, only the player did not know it because nobody explicitly told us. The player just assumed s/he wanted to do good, but the protagonist never had such intentions.

 

However, I don't see BW doing that. It would be too difficult in an RPG, I think. Or at least I don't see how it should work. And usually the audience isn't open-minded enough for that because it contradicts the full-control approach. But still, Taelaa did not speak about anything submissive/dependent/devout/etc.

 

I'm out of likes, have a  for getting where I was coming from.

 

Edit: Top....erm, shameless self promotion. 

Spoiler

[Illyria]

Knowing Biower in the darkspawn DLC it will be revealed that the origin of the darkspawn is All Elves' Fault   

 

*dislike*

 

[BoscoBread]

I was going to add that someone said the revelation about the pantheons proves there is no maker

i think there's room for both - at least that was the interpretation i took away from the game. 

 

i know the devs did not want to "reveal" the maker as real - like the way we find out that Mythal/Fen'Harel are very real and actual people.  so you can worship the pantheon and the maker.  solas even likes the idea of the maker and cass's idea of faith.  i never viewed the religions as mutually exclusive and i think - in the game - when people have done this, it's just caused problems. 

[Cee]

That's fair. To be honest, I think whether the Maker is real or not is neither here nor there at this point. But the revelation that Dalish gods are definitely and canonically real (and still up to throw down) is a big one. It's one thing to talk about gods and have faith in them based on mythologies and fables, it's another to be able to see without any shred of doubt that they do exist. It changes the whole nature of that universe (even if they may not be 'gods' per se).

 

I also truly appreciate the conversations between Solas and Cassandra more after the end revelations.

 

• Cassandra: It is interesting to hear a mage's perspective of our abilities, Solas.
• Solas: I am pleased you find it so.
• Cassandra: I am taught my abilities come from the Maker. You probably think it silly.
• Solas: Your abilities declare the world real. Who, if not the Maker of this world, could grant such a gift?
• Cassandra: You believe in the Maker?
• Solas: I am always open to new ideas.

 

and

 

• Cassandra: Solas, if you do not mind me asking, what do you believe in?
• Solas: Cause and effect. Wisdom as its own reward, and the inherent right of all free willed people to exist.
• Cassandra: That is not what I meant.
• Solas: I know. I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter. But I do not think any of them were gods, unless you expand the definition of the word to the point of absurdity. I appreciate the idea of your Maker, a god that does not need to prove his power. I wish more such gods felt the same.
• Cassandra: You have seen much sadness in your journeys, Solas. Following the Maker might offer some hope.
• Solas: I have people, Seeker. The greatest triumphs and tragedies this world has known can all be traced to people.
  
   

Those were already some of my favorite in-game banters before I knew more of what the hell was going on, and the immense respect Solas has for Cassandra and even Cassandra's even headed growth toward Solas too, were an unexpected side effect of keeping both in my party nearly all the time (they were my favorites, along with Dorian, separately).

 

Even Fen'Harel is open-minded. Hmm.

 

 

 

[Taelaa]

Why does Solas disapprove of the Grey Wardens method of killing the Old Gods?

I've heard something about the pantheons being related to the Old Gods (not sure about that theory)

How else can you end the blight without killing the archdemon? What does he expect people to do? 

 

Perhaps this last question will be what we tackle in the next or some future DA game. I feel strongly that this is where they are headed, ultimately, with the franchise - how to end the blight. And I reckon the finale will be mind bending and force us all to face the many prejudices and ideas we have formed or strongly believed in throughout the series.

[myahele]

I also truly appreciate the conversations between Solas and Cassandra more after the end revelations.

 

 

• Cassandra: Solas, if you do not mind me asking, what do you believe in?
• Solas: Cause and effect. Wisdom as its own reward, and the inherent right of all free willed people to exist.
• Cassandra: That is not what I meant.
• Solas: I know. I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter. But I do not think any of them were gods, unless you expand the definition of the word to the point of absurdity. I appreciate the idea of your Maker, a god that does not need to prove his power. I wish more such gods felt the same.
• Cassandra: You have seen much sadness in your journeys, Solas. Following the Maker might offer some hope.
• Solas: I have people, Seeker. The greatest triumphs and tragedies this world has known can all be traced to people.
  
   

Those were already some of my favorite in-game banters before I knew more of what the hell was going on, and the immense respect Solas has for Cassandra and even Cassandra's even headed growth toward Solas too, were an unexpected side effect of keeping both in my party nearly all the time (they were my favorites, along with Dorian, separately).

 

Even Fen'Harel is open-minded. Hmm.

 

Spoiler

Shares the same pov as Galdauran

There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.
I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. LetAndruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.