153429 réponses à ce sujet

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I disagree, Solas says to a Qun-quisitor: "The quanari are savage creatures, their ferocity held in check only by the rigid teachings of the Qun." Solas has a problem with the race, not  just the Qun.

Isn't that what Iron Bull/the Qunari say about themselves, though?

 

As for initially lumping Adaar in to the same group as Qun followers in that respect, that's likely cus he just didn't knwo them. Its the same reason everyone else thinks at first that you might be brutish, scary, adn a Qun follower. Unless you ahev dealings with merc groups, most every qunari ppl meet ever follows the Qun.

[yetanothername]

I've seen the Solas-as-Racist-Grandpa a lot, while I am somewhat interested because I didn't get that, it seems like a potentially difficult thing to discuss because of the certainty in the language used. He came off as anti-everyone, to me, kicking back to arrogance in general. He deconstructs the ancient elves as much as he does the modern ones, but treasures memories of individuals of all groups, and is compassionate about their suffering. He and Bull both seem to have the easy to hate an organization, individuals is too much work thing.

Where The Iron Bull enjoys violence against assholes who deserve it, Solas reminds him that they were living men with loves and families, and all that they could have been is gone.

The Qunari thing specifically seemed strange to me because it seemed as much physical as anything else. I like the Qunari as a player, but if he'd said "dragons are usually savage creatures prone to extreme violence when their naps are disturbed" I wouldn't have thought twice about it. For weird dragon-blood horned people who believe they need the Qun to keep their savagery in check, it didn't seem so much hateful as unfortunately blunt. They do believe that, and we don't really know what exactly they are, either. Bull himself fears what he could become as Tal-Vashoth, and Solas supports him.

 

Additionally, whether it is possible for a free thought to occur in a philosophy is irrelevant if one believes the philosophy itself seeks to eradicate it. That's just a failure of the system's own goals, not a benefit.

 

There may be too much real world reflection to get past the right/wrong absolute dichotomy though, I don't know.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

On diversity... We see it in his monologues, he's looked at actions and behaviours of individuals of all races and has admired and marvelled at them, humans dwarves, qunari... Those are not the musings of someone who is solely interested in his own race. Racists tend to confine themselves to their own groups and not show any interest in others.

Louis Armstrong, who was a major figure in the 1920's on Jazz scene would disagree. I won't put what he said in his personal tapes about how he was treated in my post because that could easily get me banned considering the language within it, but I will send you a link to a news article that has some of his quotes about the bigotry of racists who loved him and his music, but despised his race, his culture, his origin. And how - justifiably - angry it made him.

I won't get into this further because I don't want to side track the thread beyond pointing out that yes, racists have and can show interest in the cultures that grow out of the races they put down. Take a look at France's acceptance and reverence of Japanese wood-block printing in the 1880-1900s, how it heavily influenced the artists of the time period, and compare it to the roles Sessue Hayakawa was given in the 1910s. While paid as handsomely as everyone else - he (and thereby the culture he represented) on screen was either as a deplorable villain or forbidden lover. Hell, in 1930 a law was placed that made it impossible for him to play a romantic role with someone of a different race than his own. And yet, here he was, a highly celebrated actor. Barred. By racism.

I'm done now. Sorry!

[The Oracle]

Isn't that what Iron Bull/the Qunari say about themselves, though?

 

Yes. And then, when Iron Bull worries about it after saving the chargers, Solas is the one who tries to be all comforting about how if it was to ever happen, there would be people around who would help him (actually, i think he says that he, himself, would help Bull through it, though obviously not as his magic 8 ball broke and he ran away).

[Sable Rhapsody]

Isn't that what Iron Bull/the Qunari say about themselves, though?

 

Iron Bull says that most of the Tal-Vashoth he's met are savage, not that the race is inherently savage.  Though I do think there's something weird going on with the qunari.

 

IRL when people defect from their homelands, convert to different religions, or assimilate into different cultures, they don't go bat****.  Iron Bull seems to imply that the very act of leaving the Qun causes Tal-Vashoth to turn violent.  If someone did that IRL, we'd chalk it up to that individual being nuts.  And in Kirkwall, it makes sense for the Tal-Vashoth to be violent since most of them are soldiers, and know nothing but battle.  But it makes no sense for, say, a baker who leaves the Qun to start a murdering spree, yet that seems to be what's implied 

[Giton]

Isn't that what Iron Bull/the Qunari say about themselves, though?

And isn't one of the arcs of Bull's story that this supposition is flat-out wrong. That he doesn't NEED the Qun? That he is not an inherently savage beast? That he has a choice? That there is danger in such generalizations?

 

And wouldn't the Qun proper like to use such rhetoric as a form of control? Because that is a potent fear.

 

Such generalizations, I think, are really very sinister.

[Catfishers]

The Qunari thing specifically seemed strange to me because it seemed as much physical as anything else. I like the Qunari as a player, but if he'd said "dragons are usually savage creatures prone to extreme violence when their naps are disturbed" I wouldn't have thought twice about it. For weird dragon-blood horned people who believe they need the Qun to keep their savagery in check, it didn't seem so much hateful as unfortunately blunt. They do believe that, and we don't really know what exactly they are, either. Bull himself fears what he could become as Tal-Vashoth, and Solas supports him.

 

You know, this kind of makes me realise that we haven't had that much contact with Qunari people who are rigorous adherents to the Qun since Sten (who did murder a whole family…) Not as companions, anyway.

 

Iron Bull and Tallis have a passion for the Qun, but neither could be described as model members of that society, both are renegades in their own way. And the Qunari Inquisitor is obviously subject to the biases of the player, and is Tal-Vashoth.

 

It would have been nice to have had a more recent companion who was a strict adherent, because we really don't know that much about them as people.

Modifié par Catfishers, 02 avril 2015 - 06:52 .

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Iron Bull says that most of the Tal-Vashoth he's met are savage, not that the race is inherently savage.  Though I do think there's something weird going on with the qunari.

 

IRL when people defect from their homelands, convert to different religions, or assimilate into different cultures, they don't go bat****.  Iron Bull seems to imply that the very act of leaving the Qun causes Tal-Vashoth to turn violent.  If someone did that IRL, we'd chalk it up to that individual being nuts.  And in Kirkwall, it makes sense for the Tal-Vashoth to be violent since most of them are soldiers, and know nothing but battle.  But it makes no sense for, say, a baker who leaves the Qun to start a murdering spree, yet that seems to be what's implied 

 

And isn't one of the arcs of Bull's story that this supposition is flat-out wrong. That he doesn't NEED the Qun? That he is not an inherently savage beast? That he has a choice? That there is danger in such generalizations?

 

And wouldn't the Qun proper like to use such rhetoric as a form of control? Because that is a potent fear.

 

Such generalizations, I think, are really very sinister.

I think this only illustrates that the idea the Qunari are inherently violent and the Qun is the only way of life that keeps them in check is indeed propoganda on the part of the Qun to impose/sustain itself. (Probably not even believed by the leadership to be a lie at this point, either.) I don't think they're inherently any more violent than the other races. 

 

But my point was ultimately that Solas, who's not really ever interacted with any of them outside of dreamtime, is going by what he's heard and observed. He's heard the party line about "qunari are all violent without the Qun" and seen virtually no counterexamples. He's actually giving credit to the Qunari's interpretation of themselves by believing them on that.

[Mims]

Iron Bull says that most of the Tal-Vashoth he's met are savage, not that the race is inherently savage.  Though I do think there's something weird going on with the qunari.

 

IRL when people defect from their homelands, convert to different religions, or assimilate into different cultures, they don't go bat****.  Iron Bull seems to imply that the very act of leaving the Qun causes Tal-Vashoth to turn violent.  If someone did that IRL, we'd chalk it up to that individual being nuts.  And in Kirkwall, it makes sense for the Tal-Vashoth to be violent since most of them are soldiers, and know nothing but battle.  But it makes no sense for, say, a baker who leaves the Qun to start a murdering spree, yet that seems to be what's implied 

 

I'm guessing kossith might have some sort of blood rage deal, similar to orcs in the warcraft universe. Or even vulcans from star trek. Without some sort of guiding principle of order, they are prone to acting violently. Popular theory is that the elves [or someone else] might have created them to be shock troops. So giving them an aggressive edge would suit their intended purpose, but not a role in society. 

 

But, that doesn't mean it can't be controlled. I don't think Bull is in any danger of losing his mind. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

It would have been nice to have had a more recent companion who was a strict adherent, because we really don't know that much about them as people.

 

I really want to go to Par Vollen and meet a "normal" qunari.  Not antaam, not Ben-Hassrath.  A farmer, or a tamassran, or a kid, or a baker.  Iron Bull says that people are just people everywhere, and I want to see if that's true.

 

 

As for initially lumping Adaar in to the same group as Qun followers in that respect, that's likely cus he just didn't knwo them. Its the same reason everyone else thinks at first that you might be brutish, scary, adn a Qun follower. Unless you ahev dealings with merc groups, most every qunari ppl meet ever follows the Qun.

 

I can understand that.  But from Adaar's perspective, playing him, it's infuriating and TBH exhausting at a certain point.  Imagine growing up in a world where everyone you meet assumes you're some sort of brutish, fanatical monster.  Add being a mage on top of that.  I think a little exasperation with Solas on Adaar's behalf is perfectly understandable.  If anyone should understand what it's like to be hated for something you're not, it's Solas 

[tsunamitigerdragon]

You know, this kind of makes me realise that we haven't had that much contact with Qunari people who are rigorous adherents to the Qun since Sten (who did murder a whole family…) Not as companions, anyway.

 

Iron Bull and Tallis have a passion for the Qun, but neither could be described as model members of that society, both are renegades in their own way. And the Qunari Inquisitor is obviously subject to the biases of the player, and is Tal-Vashoth.

 

It would have been nice to have had a more recent companion who was a strict adherent, because we really don't know that much about them as people.

 

Actually, they're Vashoth. So this means the Adaar inquisitor wasn't even BORN under the Qun. It's their parents who left. They're not responsible for that initial act of rebellion that led them to be separated from the Qun.

That's what makes me SO frustrated while playing Adaar with Solas is that he refuses to acknowledge that yes, you're a Qunari. But you have an ENTIRE GENERATION of separation between you and the Qun. And very likely parents who made their issues with the Qun -- the faults of it, the dangers of it, their reasons for abandoning it -- so very clear to you.

[Cee]

I don't think he's racist either. Racist would imply he was unaware of his own people's failings- but he's not. He says numerous times that the ancient elves weren't all that great and were 'no better than Tevinter.'

 

He's just an *******. One who is socially awkward and thinks he knows more about people by studying racial histories or dreams than he does individuals. I don't think he's someone that has spent a lot of time really 'getting to know' other people.  

 

I already liked this but

 

I think that this is important to keep in mind since even though he does, and tries to, hold people at a distance, getting to actually know people can and does sometimes affect his opinions. To some degree, anyhow, but he's more likely to respect individuals than whole organizations or larger entities, whole races, etc......again, his conversation about organizations and power....structures, peoples, becoming complacent or denying freedoms, might also apply to societies.

 

Also the threat of people becoming "real", as Cole implies, might complicate things.
 

[BoscoBread]

I've seen the Solas-as-Racist-Grandpa a lot, while I am somewhat interested because I didn't get that, it seems like a potentially difficult thing to discuss because of the certainty in the language used. He came off as anti-everyone, to me, kicking back to arrogance in general. He deconstructs the ancient elves as much as he does the modern ones, but treasures memories of individuals of all groups, and is compassionate about their suffering. He and Bull both seem to have the easy to hate an organization, individuals is too much work thing.

Where The Iron Bull enjoys violence against assholes who deserve it, Solas reminds him that they were living men with loves and families, and all that they could have been is gone.

The Qunari thing specifically seemed strange to me because it seemed as much physical as anything else. I like the Qunari as a player, but if he'd said "dragons are usually savage creatures prone to extreme violence when their naps are disturbed" I wouldn't have thought twice about it. For weird dragon-blood horned people who believe they need the Qun to keep their savagery in check, it didn't seem so much hateful as unfortunately blunt. They do believe that, and we don't really know what exactly they are, either. Bull himself fears what he could become as Tal-Vashoth, and Solas supports him.

 

Additionally, whether it is possible for a free thought to occur in a philosophy is irrelevant if one believes the philosophy itself seeks to eradicate it. That's just a failure of the system's own goals, not a benefit.

 

There may be too much real world reflection to get past the right/wrong absolute dichotomy though, I don't know.

As people said above me - Bull's opinions about Tal'Vashoth and the Qun are just generalizations.  He's proven wrong.   That's the whole point to his arc.  He's not a monster because he loved his men like family.  That was sort of the whole point.

 

A people should not be condemned by or even equated with their gov./over-arching philosophy. (Good lord I hope I'm not with mine).  I wasn't praising the Qun. I was saying that despite the suppression of free thought, it still obviously occurs in some manner. They aren't beasts. They aren't monsters.  I don't think they are dragon people that are being held back by magic...which is what I think you are inferring.(I get they they are part dragon).  I think they are just people like Solas. Or any other race. 

[Catfishers]

Actually, they're Vashoth.

 

Ah, my bad. I'll fix that biz right on up.

[Giton]

I think this only illustrates that the idea the Qunari are inherently violent and the Qun is the only way of life that keeps them in check is propoganda on the part of the Qun itself. I don't think they're inherently any more violent than the other races. 

 

But my point was ultimately that Solas, who's not really ever interacted with any of them outside of dreamtime, is going by what he's heard and observed. He's heard the party line about "qunari are all violent without the Qun" and seen virtually no counterexamples. He's actually giving credit to the Qunari's interpretation of themselves by believing that.

We don't know what kind of contact he has had with other races. We just don't know.

 

To clarify, are you saying that Solas's giving credit to Qun rhetoric is a good thing?

[Illyria]

I don't think he's racist either. Racist would imply he was unaware of his own people's failings- but he's not. He says numerous times that the ancient elves weren't all that great and were 'no better than Tevinter.'

 

He's just an *******. One who is socially awkward and thinks he knows more about people by studying racial histories or dreams than he does individuals. I don't think he's someone that has spent a lot of time really 'getting to know' other people.  

 

Trying to figure out wha the censored word is.  Can I get a clue that wont get you banned or a warning?  I'm normally pretty good at guessing using context but this one has just stumped me.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I think that this is important to keep in mind since even though he does, and tries to, hold people at a distance, getting to actually know people can and does sometimes affect his opinions. To some degree, anyhow, but he's more likely to respect individuals than whole organizations or larger entities, whole races, etc......again, his conversation about organizations and power....structures, peoples, becoming complacent or denying freedoms, might also apply to societies.

 

Ah, I'm ranting a bit now because I have feels about Adaar, and his/her potential viewpoints on the Qun.  But I do agree that Solas is capable of respecting individuals and learning from them.  

 

Basically I ping-pong between "Omg Solas let me hug you bae" and "OMG SOLAS I'MA PUNCH YOU."  I promise I'm not this insane IRL 

[The Oracle]

Louis Armstrong, who was a major figure in the 1920's on Jazz scene would disagree. I won't put what he said in his personal tapes about how he was treated in my post because that could easily get me banned considering the language within it, but I will send you a link to a news article that has some of his quotes about the bigotry of racists who loved him and his music, but despised his race, his culture, his origin. And how - justifiably - angry it made him.

I won't get into this further because I don't want to side track the thread beyond pointing out that yes, racists have and can show interest in the cultures that grow out of the races they put down. Take a look at France's acceptance and reverence of Japanese wood-block printing in the 1880-1900s, how it heavily influenced the artists of the time period, and compare it to the roles Sessue Hayakawa was given in the 1910s. While paid as handsomely as everyone else - he (and thereby the culture he represented) on screen was either as a deplorable villain or forbidden lover. Hell, in 1930 a law was placed that made it impossible for him to play a romantic role with someone of a different race than his own. And yet, here he was, a highly celebrated actor. Barred. By racism.

I'm done now. Sorry!

 

Hmmm, yet I can't see the same applying to Solas. I think he hates the ideals that many of the races adopt and define themselves by, rather than the people. So, for example, I'm Scottish, but I really hate how a large number of my country men and women define their own Scottish-ness with the inherent dislike of being defined as or compared to the English. I don't hate my own people, but this can, depending on where you grow up, be a huge part of our culture. 

 

Quanri, by and large, find themselves falling under the Qun and this system is something that Solas hates. Not that the Quanri as a race of people exist, that they live and socialise with other races or anything else. Just that they have built up and defined themselves by a system which goes against his views of personal choice and freedom.

 

I agree with him. I really don't like the Qun. The only reason that I dislike it is for the same reason I do any other organisation or social system which forces people into it and gives no option to leave. You can't just say "Sorry, I don't really fancy this. Not my cup of tea. Think I'll move to Val Royeaux and open a chip shop instead." What you get is a cake or death scenario. You're either with us or we'll do all we can to kill you. I find it really hard to justify this as anything but horrifying.

[Illyria]

I don't have an issue of him laying into Bull about the Qun as a philosophy or a government. As a people. Yes.  Bull/Adaar et al are told their entire lives they are brutish and unthinking. This is patently false.  From Tallis and Sten we know the Qun has artists, poets, etc.  Obviously all highly regulated, but to say that free thought or expression still can't grow from that is just ignorant.  He's smarter than that and his biases about the races are beneath him. I say this as Lavellan.  Now as a player - I think they make him an interesting character.

I've said before, I think a lot of this stems from him being so disconnected from the present-day Thedas.  It doesn't make it right. It just makes it understandable. It also makes it easier for him to actually grow. 

 

EDIT: Also Bull is ****** smart enough to play a chess game against him in his head.  Seriously. I couldn't even do connect for.  So...yeah. 

 

His real hatred is reserved for the Qun not the Qunari themselves.

[Sable Rhapsody]

What you get is a cake or death scenario. 

 

 

Tea and cake or death!  Little red cookbook, little red cookbook!  This is what will become of the Qun after Sten introduces them to pastries 

[Catfishers]

I think that this is important to keep in mind since even though he does, and tries to, hold people at a distance, getting to actually know people can and does sometimes affect his opinions. To some degree, anyhow, but he's more likely to respect individuals than whole organizations or larger entities, whole races, etc......again, his conversation about organizations and power....structures, peoples, becoming complacent or denying freedoms, might also apply to societies.

 

And knowing that he's basically a god of rebellion, he's kind of programmed to want to '**** the system'. It's what makes him wary of the Inquisition as a power. And part of why he schools Sera on how to best deconstruct her rebellion once it has run it's course.

 

It's also why I think he's approving of a Lavellan who claims that her people didn't make her the way she is; because she's owning her actions and acknowledging that she doesn't operate as part of a monolith. He approves of her decision to credit herself, but still suggests that her upbringing would have played a part.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

Ah, my bad. I'll fix that biz right on up.

Ah! It's not a problem and it wasn't meant as a fandom-nerd-correction. Hell,  laurelinvanyar was the one who pointed it out to me three weeks ago cause I didn't know either. I think the way that the Qun is structured as a language with not-this, but this, or exception-this and this is super confusing. So I completely missed it with my first inquisitor too.

I just pointed it out to illustrate how ridiculous people treat Adaar in game. It's like being blamed for the actions of your GRANDPARENTS. Who just.. So aren't you. Not only did you never meet them (Qunari don't have families or names - the couple meets once to copulate, child grows in mom, mom births kid, kid is immediately taken from mom and batch raised with other kids of their same age) they don't even know you exist. Or your parents exist. Other than that they birthed a kid once. And that kid might have had kids.

[Giton]

Solas literally, literally says that the Qun is needed to leash the Quanri because they are "savage creatures."

 

I just don't understand why we need to debate this. That Solas has flaws is a good thing. But he does have flaws.

[Mims]

Trying to figure out wha the censored word is.  Can I get a clue that wont get you banned or a warning?  I'm normally pretty good at guessing using context but this one has just stumped me.

 

Haha, nothing bad. This is basically how I see Solas sometimes:

 

Spoiler

 

I think his racist like behavior has less to do with actual racism and more to do with his own sort of 'know-it-all' default. If we had an ancient elf in our party, he'd probably pull the same nonsense. He's not a people person. He likes ideas. He has to be right. Since he is older and presumably more educated, he assumes he is right by default until proven otherwise. 

[Catfishers]

Ah! It's not a problem and it wasn't meant as a fandom-nerd-correction. 

 

It's cool.

 

I'd rather be corrected and learn to get it right, than keep going around getting it wrong like a goober.