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[BoscoBread]

His real hatred is reserved for the Qun not the Qunari themselves.

Yes and no. He really lays into an Adaar a bit about the Qunari.  Solas REALLY REALLY hates the Qun. Yes. That's fine. But that seems to bleed into his interpretation about the Qunari as a people. The same can be said for Dwarves/Dalish/Humans. He has fun opinions about all of them. And you know what. That's ****** fine.  It makes him interesting. It makes HIM a person. Turning him into Dalish Prince Charming is un-useful and boring(I'm not laying into you on this - FYI).  He's kind of arrogant, kind of an *******, a bit racist. But he's also confident, intelligent, thoughtful, and empathetic.  He's a well-written and well-rounded character.  I will still romance him. I will still probably cry at the end of the romance(SO WILL LIZ - she denies it but I know).  I still care about him as a character to the point where I want him to be better. 

[Felya87]

And knowing that he's basically a god of rebellion, he's kind of programmed to want to '**** the system'. It's what makes him wary of the Inquisition as a power. And part of why he schools Sera on how to best deconstruct her rebellion once it has run it's course.

 

It's also why I think he's approving of a Lavellan who claims that her people didn't make her the way she is; because she's owning her actions and acknowledging that she doesn't operate as part of a monolith. He approves of her decision to credit herself, but still suggests that her upbringing would have played a part.

 

This. let's just remember that Solas didn't like either an Inquisitor that about the time travel is "Dorian sayd..." because he want the inquisitor opinion, not the one of another. He remind me one of my professors. "tell me what you understood about this painting, not what the book say."

[Cee]

Ah, I'm ranting a bit now because I have feels about Adaar, and his/her potential viewpoints on the Qun.  But I do agree that Solas is capable of respecting individuals and learning from them.  

 

Basically I ping-pong between "Omg Solas let me hug you bae" and "OMG SOLAS I'MA PUNCH YOU."  I promise I'm not this insane IRL 

 

J/K we're all here right along with you......in need of answers and the devs are, like the elven pantheon, locked far from here and not hearing our prayers quickly enough.

[Illyria]

Haha, nothing bad. This is basically how I see Solas sometimes:

 

Spoiler

 

I think his racist like behavior has less to do with actual racism and more to do with his own sort of 'know-it-all' default. If we had an ancient elf in our party, he'd probably pull the same nonsense. He's not a people person. He likes ideas. He has to be right. Since he is older and presumably more educated, he assumes he is right by default until proven otherwise. 

 

I clearly complicate things too much in my head.  I never even thought it could be a word that basic.

 

Why does this forum have a censor anyway?  The DA and ME games all have a pretty high age rating.  Hell, the forum even censors the name of Varric's companion quest!

[Sable Rhapsody]

I just pointed it out to illustrate how ridiculous people treat Adaar in game. It's like being blamed for the actions of your GRANDPARENTS. Who just.. So aren't you. Not only did you never meet them (Qunari don't have families or names - the couple meets once to copulate, child grows in mom, mom births kid, kid is immediately taken from mom and batch raised with other kids of their same age) they don't even know you exist. Or your parents exist. Other than that they birthed a kid once. And that kid might have had kids.

 

Small wonder that my Adaar winds up with Dorian.  They have the same humor coping mechanism to deal with people hating and judging them everywhere they go.

 

...aaaand now I've gone and given myself Dorian feels.  Excuse me.  Gonna go cry in a corner now.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[Mims]

Solas literally, literally says that the Qun is needed to leash the Quanri because they are "savage creatures."

 

I just don't understand why we need to debate this. That Solas has flaws is a good thing. But he does have flaws.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting he doesn't have flaws. Just speculating whether or not he's making those claims from a standpoint of elvhen=masterrace, or if its centered entirely upon Solas being Solas. Which happens to be sometimes a miserable person. 

 

And he is a miserable person at times. I just don't believe he upholds the elvhen as the ideal, and makes that the basis of his opinions. 

[BoscoBread]

Small wonder that my Adaar winds up with Dorian.  They have the same humor coping mechanism to deal with people hating and judging them everywhere they go.

 

...aaaand now I've gone and given myself Dorian feels.  Excuse me.  Gonna go cry in a corner now.

Write a Dorian fluff fic.  The trash heap will accept this free of charge. 

[The Oracle]

Interesting quote of Solas on the Qun from his Iron Bull interactions.

 

Solas: If your Qun is so wonderful, so fair and perfect, how does it create so many Tal-Vashoth?

(If the Inquisitor is Qunari.)

 

Solas: There are enough of them to marry and have children, like the man/woman we travel with!

Iron Bull: And for every one who turns out alright, like him/her, and his/her parents, dozens go savage.

Iron Bull: Most Tal-Vashoth are nothing more then savages. Killing's all they know.

Iron Bull: The Ben-Hassrath are trying to lose fewer people to that sickness.

Solas: It isn't a sickness. You are losing them because they see a chance for freedom!

Solas: And most of them are "savage", as you say, because your culture taught them nothing else.

Solas: They know nothing but the Qun. So even as they fight against it, they are guided by it's principles.

Iron Bull: Watch it, elf. You haven't seen the Tal-Vashoth like I have.

Iron Bull: Try watching a Tal-Vashoth kill a Tamassran and her kids. Then we'll talk.

 

I think he uses "savage creatures" as a snipe at the wording that they use to describe themselves.

 

I think most of us agree that Solas has many flaws and that they are part of his character. I think we are debating it because most of us disagree that one of his flaws is one of fundamental and unmoving racism.

[BoscoBread]

I don't think anyone is suggesting he doesn't have flaws. Just speculating whether or not he's making those claims from a standpoint of elvhen=masterrace, or if its centered entirely upon Solas being Solas. Which happens to be sometimes a miserable person. 

 

And he is a miserable person at times. I just don't believe he upholds the elvhen as the ideal, and makes that the basis of his opinions. 

Making widesweeping generalizations about a race - even if you hate your own race - is still racism.  We still would call it that in the real world. We do all the time.  I'm not saying he's evil or it's even malicious.  It's called casual racism. His opinions suck and they are ignorant.  Ignorance is not a free pass.  It's merely understandable. 

 

He's also a miserable person.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

Yes and no. He really lays into an Adaar a bit about the Qunari.  Solas REALLY REALLY hates the Qun. Yes. That's fine. But that seems to bleed into his interpretation about the Qunari as a people. The same can be said for Dwarves/Dalish/Humans. He has fun opinions about all of them. And you know what. That's ****** fine.  It makes him interesting. It makes HIM a person. Turning him into Dalish Prince Charming is un-useful and boring(I'm not laying into you on this - FYI).  He's kind of arrogant, kind of an *******, a bit racist. But he's also confident, intelligent, thoughtful, and empathetic.  He's a well-written and well-rounded character.  I will still romance him. I will still probably cry at the end of the romance(SO WILL LIZ - she denies it but I know).  I still care about him as a character to the point where I want him to be better. 

I think you forgot that I did the leaving at the fire swamp. That **** never locked in! I might go through it once, but I mostly just feel **** tons of frustration with him. Like, maybe we'd get back together, the sex would be great for three months, and then I'd go back to being like... DUDE. We've got a personality clash. And it begins with you being an ******* and ending in me not taking your ****. 

 

He's a fascinating character and what happened to him and his horrible decision making skills SUCKS. And I love that he's so multifaceted. He's a great, great character because of his fabulous flaws.

 

But I'm not going to cry over it. I only cry over weird ****.

[The Oracle]

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the fact that racists have historically had interest in the things that come out of the races and thereby cultures they otherwise despise. My great-grandfather who was a Spanish immigrant experienced intense racism. And yet, Don Quixote was taught in institutions of higher learning as an excellent work of literature for over two-three hundred years by that point.

 

Sorry, I understood where you were coming from, I just didn't think that this applied to Solas. 

 

Edit: Don't ask me why but I suddenly found myself thinking of Avenue Q during this conversation...

 

https://youtu.be/RovF1zsDoeM

[Meer]

Solas: And most of them are "savage", as you say, because your culture taught them nothing else.

Solas: They know nothing but the Qun. So even as they fight against it, they are guided by it's principles.

This conversation specifically concerns Tal-Vashoth Qunari, and could be argued as an example of hypocrisy on the part of Solas. Other conversations in the game see him call Qunari savage without an underlying intention other than to say they are indeed savage or that he has views/has viewed them as such. He does absolutely point at the Inquisitor as an shining example of his/her kind while saying these things. Though they are a Tal-Vasoth themselves, he never really seems to give them credit for that outside a few banters with Bull.

It seems to me that here he's blaming the culture for something he sometimes says is racially inherent, and by that token is using it as an argument when it suits him best. Of course it could be an inconsistency in the writing, as banters are not always collaborative efforts. But I have to agree that Solas is allowing his views of the Qun to muddy those he holds toward the Qunari. There's definitely an element of racism to Solas, loaded as that word is by real-life concerns, but it's there.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[yetanothername]

I spoke poorly, I think. I don't believe the Kossith are physically monsters, either. I only meant that if they are some sort of part dragon deal, it's not as simple as people hate me because I have pointed ears. And I absolutely agree most characters (especially Adaar) w(sh)ould think he was an *******. I just hesitate to go modern-real-world on it, because I don't think it's at the same level, and I don't believe thoughtfulness on the nature of a character's flaws is the same as believing they have none.

For me though, this may be the point in the discussion where no further light can be shed on fiction, revealing more of ourselves than a character in our attempts to do so. I can't really speak for his actual reasons and experiences, and it may well be as depicted by many here and elsewhere, making 'defenders' no better than modern-day apologists.

I have disassociated myself from so many different groups and labels, though, that I may just personally wish to read something more nuanced into the language used. I struggle a great deal with understanding them and the pride taken in them, and it took a lot of years to dial back the knee-jerk wish to say something bluntly negative (or positive) about any group someone identified with (or didn't) any time a positive (or negative) was brought up.

I am often somewhat relieved in the presence of (other) assholes, because it is easier to discuss the ideas underlying the words without speaking them so carefully. I would rather an offensive person whose mind can be changed, than a nice, inoffensive one whose mental course cannot be altered. I am probably colored by this, but so are we all by our experiences... Apologies for the wordy replies and lack of quotes.

[Dark_Rogue]

 

Interesting quote of Solas on the Qun from his Iron Bull interactions.

 

Solas: If your Qun is so wonderful, so fair and perfect, how does it create so many Tal-Vashoth?

(If the Inquisitor is Qunari.)

 

Solas: There are enough of them to marry and have children, like the man/woman we travel with!

Iron Bull: And for every one who turns out alright, like him/her, and his/her parents, dozens go savage.

Iron Bull: Most Tal-Vashoth are nothing more then savages. Killing's all they know.

Iron Bull: The Ben-Hassrath are trying to lose fewer people to that sickness.

Solas: It isn't a sickness. You are losing them because they see a chance for freedom!

Solas: And most of them are "savage", as you say, because your culture taught them nothing else.

Solas: They know nothing but the Qun. So even as they fight against it, they are guided by it's principles.

Iron Bull: Watch it, elf. You haven't seen the Tal-Vashoth like I have.

Iron Bull: Try watching a Tal-Vashoth kill a Tamassran and her kids. Then we'll talk.

 

I think he uses "savage creatures" as a snipe at the wording that they use to describe themselves.

 

I think most of us agree that Solas has many flaws and that they are part of his character. I think we are debating it because most of us disagree that one of his flaws is one of fundamental and unmoving racism.

 

I really like this dialogue between them both, Solas gets so angry, it's a real eye-opener when he's usually so calm xD

 

I always thought Solas's general dislike was towards the Qun and the fact that it strips the Qunari of their ability to think for themselves, since he's all for "freedom of personal thought".  Then again "God of Rebellion" could just be hard-wired into his system to go against authority

[Delphine]

It's ok to admit we all love an old racist grandpa, doesn't make him less lovable, just more human and also makes my Lavellan wanna slap him in his face too sometimes but oh well.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

We should change the name of this thread to Solas Discussion and Fan Thread - All hail the Racist Grandpa. (Dat centuries-old tight ass, tho).

[Rabbitonfire]

But I'm not going to cry over it. I only cry over weird ****. Like the color theory in the lantern scene in Tangled (I've seen it more than 7 times - cried EVERY time over the beauty of the lighting and the purple-yellow color contrast - I might be misting up thinking about it right now). And that opening sequence at the start of Up. If you don't cry during that scene YOU ARE A MONSTER AND YOU ARE DEAD TO EMOTION.

I remember the day I was shunned by the tearful spectators when i didn't cry during passion of christ, I don't think I could be a double monster. 

 

edit: I think I became a monster at the age of 10.

[Catfishers]

I honestly really appreciate that we're even having this conversation because it's so difficult to find a place online to discuss heavy issues like this in games without it just turning into a ****-show.

 

Y'all are great.

[BoscoBread]

It's ok to admit we all love an old racist grandpa, doesn't make him less lovable, just more human and also makes my Lavellan wanna slap him in his face too sometimes but oh well.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

We should change the name of this thread to Solas Discussion and Fan Thead - All hail the Racist Grandpa. (Dat centuries-old tight ass, tho).

Imma fight you on the tight ass.  He's got a bubble butt methinks. He's got a badonk.  IT'S ****** HUGE.  Go look at a side view. I'd still tap it, but let's call a spade a spade.

[Rabbitonfire]

It's ok to admit we all love an old racist grandpa, doesn't make him less lovable, just more human and also makes my Lavellan wanna slap him in his face too sometimes but oh well.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

We should change the name of this thread to Solas Discussion and Fan Thead - All hail the Racist Grandpa. (Dat centuries-old tight ass, tho).

This should be messaged to Soap.  Hopefully she will accept.

[The Oracle]

So are you saying that Solas COULDN'T appreciate anything the Qunari people made because of the Qun?

Or are you saying that Solas, despite his feelings about the Qun and the Qunari people, COULD find something they made - be it art or literature, or a heroic act and enjoy it?

Just trying to clarify what you're thinking.

 

I'm saying that he could appreciate much of what the Qunari people can do and have done, but would mourn and berate at how much more he thinks they could do if they were free from the restrictions that the Qun have placed upon them. Like, I look at many of the structures made by the Aztec people and I go, "Wow, that's amazing. The precision, the alignment to constellations, the sheer magnitude. Wow. I just wish that they hadn't thought it a good idea to sacrifice people here in the belief that the world would cease to exist otherwise. That was a pretty crappy."

[Rabbitonfire]

I honestly really appreciate that we're even having this conversation because it's so difficult to find a place online to discuss heavy issues like this in games without it just turning into a ****-show.

 

Y'all are great.

Its because those who argue alot were scared away. If you were arguing here a few months ago, you would find quite a few protecting husbando. 

[Catfishers]

Its because those who argue alot were scared away. If you were arguing here a few months ago, you would find quite a few protecting husbando. 

 

I'm glad I came late to the party then.

Discussion is fun and enlightening, arguing… not so much.

[Maria13]

I don't think he's racist either. Racist would imply he was unaware of his own people's failings- but he's not. He says numerous times that the ancient elves weren't all that great and were 'no better than Tevinter.'

 

He's just an *******. One who is socially awkward and thinks he knows more about people by studying racial histories or dreams than he does individuals. I don't think he's someone that has spent a lot of time really 'getting to know' other people.  

 

But that is precisely what the inquisition gives him... The mix and match of different peoples personalities and genders, all with one aim, saving the world, when he says he was thinking of leaving, to an extent, Solas is admitting he's been won over...