153429 réponses à ce sujet

[BoscoBread]

The rhetoric itself isn't good, but I don't think Solas can be faulted for deferring to a definition a people provide about themselves when he hasn't had any experience to the contrary at that point in time. I might be wrong, but I am under the impression that Adaar is the first Vashoth he's encountered.

No, but he's also smart.  As I've said, he's above making simplistic generalization.  Frankly, he should just know better.  He's Fen'Harel.  His entire existence - right now - is a generalization.  He's been boiled to possibly his worst attributes and to things he probably didn't do or regrets.  He doesn't get a free pass because he's never run into a Vashoth before.  You know what he should do - what he slightly approves of -ask questions. Learn.  Again, this would be my Lavellan yelling this at him.

 

Again, it makes for an interesting character the fact that he's pretty hypocritical.

[Siha]

Because it's in the past... He could have equally said "I think humans are..." which would leave no room whatsoever for doubt... But he doesn't and Solas is a very careful user of language.

 

That is why. Before it was only thinking, an unproven idea. But not it is "proved" (his own words), and hence, thinking became knowing. That is why past tense, to make it very clear that now there is no doubt left.

 

He does tend to focus on what he believes is the worst of every culture and talk about it endless. He never once seems to admit that, after everything they've been through, it's pretty impressive that the Elves retain any of their previous culture, even the bad bits. Or admit that surface Dwarves have done really well considering they've been exiled from such a closed off chaste system and forced to survive in an environment so far removed from where they originated. 

 

I'm sorry, I am not sure: do you mean to agree or disagree?

[Siha]

Probably also why the subject in fiction gets so quickly heated and pointless - everyone is using different definitions, different levels of wrong, etc.

 

And different excuses.

[Giton]

The rhetoric itself isn't good, but I don't think Solas can be faulted for deferring to a definition a people provide about themselves when he hasn't had any experience to the contrary at that point in time. I might be wrong, but I am under the impression that Adaar is the first Vashoth he's encountered.

We don't know anything about his prior experiences with other races. And I think it is absolutely justifiable to fault him if his opinions come from a place of ignorance. It is more understandable, but it still does not make it ok.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Frankly, he should just know better.  He's Fen'Harel.  His entire existence - right now - is a generalization.  He's been boiled to possibly his worst attributes and to things he probably didn't do or regrets.  He doesn't get a free pass because he's never run into a Vashoth before.  You know what he should do - what he slightly approves of -ask questions. Learn.  

 

He should, but that doesn't mean that he actually does 

 

Personally, I wish we'd been given the opportunity to sit him down and ask if he really does in his heart of hearts believe that humans are brutish, or Dalish are misguided children, or qunari are irredeemably savage.  This is obviously just headcanon, but a lot of his prejudice strikes me as a knee-jerk "NO NO NO" reaction to modern Thedas, the world that he helped create for better or worse.  He does change his tune from time to time in the game: Varric's conversation about the man on the island, for example.  I wonder if he'd say something different if the Inquisitor had the opportunity to really put his beliefs under the microscope.

 

Of course, that would risk discovering what a horrible liar he really is, so it's no wonder we never got that opportunity.   I just think it would've been interesting.

[MoonDrummer]

I think as much as Solas would hate to be called a god, he does look on the world the same way a god would. People aren't individuals to him, they're little black dots that have clustered together and he has gotten used to these groups acting in a certain way, Humans = Shitlords, Dalish = Newbs, Dwarves = unimaginative, Qunari = barbarians, so he is shocked when an inquisitor doesn't fill the box s/he has been put in. He has a point with this, the Dalish are elf newbs, Dwarves don't dream and are embroiled in tradition (even the surface clans like Bianca's family), and the fast majority of Qunari do turn to banditry without the Qun, well I'm assuming as much from what we have seen in the previous games anyway.

 

Does this make him racist? Probably? I dono, I'm terrible at this ****, far better at communicating entirely through gifs. 

[The Oracle]

I'm sorry, I am not sure: do you mean to agree or disagree?

 

Oh, that was me agreeing. :-)

[Meer]

We don't know anything about his prior experiences with other races. And I think it is absolutely justifiable to fault him if his opinions come from a place of ignorance. It is more understandable, but it still does not make it ok.

 

In fact, I would say that arguing ignorance as a defense for Solas actually calls into question parts of his obvious intelligence. If his opinions are formed without experience and from a place of second-hand bias, this illuminates a blindness in him that is unfortunate. A character flaw, but an interesting one.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[Rabbitonfire]

All this racism and godhood makes me conflicted on whether I should play sims or elder scrolls... On one hand, I could play god and create sims characters hate people and mean-spirited and possibly throw them into a pool with no railing... On the other hand, I could be the one being thrown racist insults about rugs and n'wahs but ascend into godhood..

[BoscoBread]

He should, but that doesn't mean that he actually does 

 

Personally, I wish we'd been given the opportunity to sit him down and ask if he really does in his heart of hearts believe that humans are brutish, or Dalish are misguided children, or qunari are irredeemably savage.  This is obviously just headcanon, but a lot of his prejudice strikes me as a knee-jerk "NO NO NO" reaction to modern Thedas, the world that he helped create for better or worse.  He does change his tune from time to time in the game: Varric's conversation about the man on the island, for example.  I wonder if he'd say something different if the Inquisitor had the opportunity to really put his beliefs under the microscope.

 

Of course, that would risk discovering what a horrible liar he really is, so it's no wonder we never got that opportunity.   I just think it would've been interesting.

That's what I meant though. He should know better because he's presented to be smart. It's like anyone you love that is really smart that has some massively problematic viewpoint and you're just like 'Oh no, why!???'  But yet they don't know better or they don't change.  I think this will be opportunity for growth for him later. When it comes time for the end.  He sees that he can let go of that time and be part of this time...and really part of it.  SO WE AGREE SABLE.

[BoscoBread]

All this racism and godhood makes me conflicted on whether I should play sims or elder scrolls... On one hand, I could play god and create sims characters hate people and mean-spirited and possibly throw them into a pool with no railing... On the other hand, I could be the one being thrown racist insults about rugs and n'wahs but ascend into godhood..

I you

 

I vote Sims though. I want you to make me a demisexual transcendental mini-horse-kin who likes to garden.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I think this will be opportunity for growth for him later. When it comes time for the end.  He sees that he can let go of that time and be part of this time...and really part of it.  SO WE AGREE SABLE.

 

Provided he lives to actually appreciate that lesson.  The more I think about his future, the more I think it's likely to skew tragic and/or bittersweet rather than happy.

 

Then I go and write useless fluff like this piece of shameless self-promotion.  Then I feel better    Banal nadas, biznatches!

[Catfishers]

I think he just doesn't want to accept that Thedas, as he knew it, is gone. He keeps clinging to these preconceived notions of how different groups of people should behave, because that's either how he remembers them behaving, or it's how he wished they'd behaved in the time that he was away.

 

Does this make him act like a douchey racist? Absolutely. He thinks he knows better than absolutely everyone.

 

But it doesn't make him a terrible person and, if anything, it allows for him to hopefully have a satisfying character arc outside of 'big liar who keeps messing **** up'. He's a man displaced in time who has to learn to let the past go, one way or another.

[laurelinvanyar]

Oh, about the Vashoth vs Tal'Vashoth thing in regards to Adaar...(sorry this is so late, but I needed to find the codexes)

 

http://dragonage.wik...ar,_the_Vashoth

 

http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Grey_Ones

 

So yeah, not a direct rebel to the Qun, but the child of a rebel. Which makes it all the more galling when Solas gives the whole "You are the exception to your race" special snowflake spiel. 

 

Adaar was never part of the Qun in the first place, but by virtue of their horns they have all associated baggage? Not OK, Solas. 

[Meer]

All this racism and godhood makes me conflicted on whether I should play sims or elder scrolls... On one hand, I could play god and create sims characters hate people and mean-spirited and possibly throw them into a pool with no railing... On the other hand, I could be the one being thrown racist insults about rugs and n'wahs but ascend into godhood..

Rabbit, when faced with a choice and the power, the answer is always to be as cruel as possible in every situation and keep the reins firmly in hand. If your heart tells you to put the Sims in the pool, listen to it, and never look back.

Spoiler

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[Cee]

This conversation brings to mind his line when you free him at Redcliffe.

 

"You would think such understanding would stop me from making such terrible mistakes. You would be wrong."

And yet, he does seem to remain blind to certain things, even with some learned understanding of some of his own flaws.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[Maria13]

I think what I disagree with is your assumption that intellectual ignorance and racism go hand in hand. One can be incredibly educated while still holding beliefs or misconceptions about a race/ group of people that are morally and culturally bigoted. One is a failure of factual education or literacy, and the other a failure to humanize "the other."

Ethics is not the same as intelligence, nor is it education. One could be incredibly intelligent, and use that intelligence to justify experimentation on other human beings of a different ethnic group than their own. One could be highly educated or even study a cultural group academically, but despair the presence of a different cultural group "invading" their borders through immigration. And one could have less than a high school education and still experience empathy and understanding for those who are different.

EDIT:
SO ABOUT THAT SOLAS. If he's not a racist, he's a cultural chauvinist. Which is equally bad. But his failures are what make him human and interesting. SEE THE FIRE AND THE DISCUSSION.

 

I find myself in Spain and in the unfortunate (or fortunate!) position of being too pissed to properly address your arguments...

 

So the following is a just a rather pathetic attempt at addressing your well-made arguments...

 

I've no doubt that many educated people can be racists... However, most racism is found among the uneducated or those who have taken no care to think, to take a step back and educate themselves... Of course it is all a matter of definition, particularly of the word "educated" or "education".... what i find it difficult to believe is that one could seriously study, say, and admire Don Quixote and find no redeeming features whatsoever in people of Spanish or Hispanic culture. 

 

A lot of racism is found in misconceptions and the idea of the "noble savage" would be one of these, on an equal footing with the idea of the "****** with a heart of gold", these may be steps in the right direction but they still damn the majority on the basis of purportedly valuing a fictional minority... (and, yeah, Solas does just this on the balcony when he expresses surprise that the Dalish could have produced a Lavellan... but as I say, that is a realization and is a step in the right direction, though still deeply mired in prejudice).

 

I would never equate ethics with intelligence or education and I don't think it would be fair to read this into my answer to you... However, my definition of education may be slightly wider than yours because it does take into account a certain cultural relativism, what could you expect from someone who is of mixed heritage and works as a translator?  I would not call someone who was exclusively schooled in anglosaxon culture say, "educated", in fact I would find the very notion risible... We gain education as we leave our comfort zones... and Solas is a long, long, long way away from his own... He is only beginning to adapt... But adapting he is... So I think it is somewhat unfair or premature to class him as a racist.

[BoscoBread]

Rabbit, when faced with a choice and the power, the answer is always to be as cruel as possible in every situation and keep the reins firmly in hand. If your heart tells you to put the Sims in the pool, listen to it, and never look back.

Spoiler

I miss the days I could lock my Sim children up in a burning closet. The most effective form of population control.

[laurelinvanyar]

I love you so long and so hard, goddess of the codex. Let me stroke your frontal cortex. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

I can't bring myself to be mean to my new Sims.  They're all Dragon Age and Mass Effect sims, and the majority of them are characters who had a horrible time of it in their canon stories (Solas and Lavellan, Zev and my Tabris who died, Anders and my Hawke who died, etc.)  I just can't be horrible to them in more than one universe.

[Meer]

I miss the days I could lock my Sim children up in a burning closet. The most effective form of population control.

I knew there was evil lurking in your heart, Katie. This gladdens me.

Spoiler

[Catfishers]

I miss the days I could lock my Sim children up in a burning closet. The most effective form of population control.

 

I had a tiny fireplace room in the first Sims game for this purpose.

 

But killing my Sims came back to bite me when one of my Sims pleaded with the grim reaper for the life of her stupid kid. In a manoeuvre that would have made Fen'Harel proud, he let her live as a zombie. And I was unable to kill her and thus, unable to get rid of her. We all lost.