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[Sable Rhapsody]

Think of how much must have happened, and how much will happen even in the next 50. It's sad, it's fascinating, it's humbling.

 

As much as I like history, this is what gets me.  Hence, my love of Deus Ex, Mass Effect, etc.  We're heading toward a world of augmented reality and 3D printed kidneys and artificial limbs that could get close to or surpass the real thing.  My body is so ready.

 

Which (to awkwardly segue back on topic) is part of what makes me so sad for Solas and his time displacement.  He only sees the changes in modern Thedas in a negative light.  He keeps looking behind and thinking, "What have we lost?" instead of asking "What could we gain?"

[BoscoBread]

As much as I like history, this is what gets me.  Hence, my love of Deus Ex, Mass Effect, etc.  We're heading toward a world of augmented reality and 3D printed kidneys and artificial limbs that could get close to or surpass the real thing.  My body is so ready.

 

Which (to awkwardly segue back on topic) is part of what makes me so sad for Solas and his time displacement.  He only sees the changes in modern Thedas in a negative light  He keeps looking behind and thinking, "What have we lost?" instead of asking "What could we gain?"

This gave me feels.  You pinpointed this so well.  I get the hang-up but at the same time it's like..."Solas, can't you be hopeful?"  I think actually this is what my biggest issue my Lavellan would have with him. That he can't see the world as it is now and the future with any type of positivity.  I mean he gets excited over learning new things in the Fade and about magic. Why should that excitement for knowledge not extend to everything?  My Lavellan was pretty adventerous though.  Sort of a bit of wish fufillment  MarySue-ness on my part. She just wants to see everything.  Not use any knowledge necessarily just to see and experience.  She wanted to share that with Solas...oh ok. Im hellspiraling now.

[Meer]

I'm actually quite smitten with Pre-Columbian history. So the Ancient Americas.

 

This all sounds fascinating. I simultaneously love and loathe that this is a subject only recently being explored in depth....it excites me that there are still things to be discovered about the past, but this is such important history. I must know more.

 

Which (to awkwardly segue back on topic) is part of what makes me so sad for Solas and his time displacement.  He only sees the changes in modern Thedas in a negative light.  He keeps looking behind and thinking, "What have we lost?" instead of asking "What could we gain?"

It would be wonderful if Solas could learn to marry his attitude about the past to his love of discovery. The reason history is important is that it is a learning tool. We can be sad we lose certain things and try to preserve them, while others ought to be eradicated or reformed. We remember the past so we can build a better future, or some other such cliche. So while I think it's important to look forward as much as possible, the past ought to be respected and studied. In our world, it really isn't, and that's a shame.

[Sable Rhapsody]

This gave me feels.  You pinpointed this so well.  I get the hang-up but at the same time it's like..."Solas, can't you be hopeful?"  I think actually this is what my biggest issue my Lavellan would have with him. That he can't see the world as it is now and the future with any type of positivity.  I mean he gets excited over learning new things in the Fade and about magic. Why should that excitement for knowledge not extend to everything?  My Lavellan was pretty adventerous though.  Sort of a bit of wish fufillment  MarySue-ness on my part. She just wants to see everything.  Not use any knowledge necessarily just to see and experience.  She wanted to share that with Solas...oh ok. Im hellspiraling now.

 

 

 

Sorry.  AHEM.  My Lavellan's the same way.  Getting thrust into the spotlight was very uncomfortable for her.  But in exchange for saving the world, she's done more in the timespan of Inquisition than many people do in a lifetime.  From her perspective, the world is a dangerous but beautiful place.  Why wouldn't you want to experience it? 

 

In some ways, I think Solas is guilty of the same thing he knocks the Dalish for: clinging on to a past that no longer exists, or maybe never existed at all except in nostalgic recollection and stories.  

 

EDIT:  Oh, and I think adventurousness is an implied attribute of most RPG heroes, not particularly Sue-ish.  I mean, you have to be a little nuts to hear about some professor trying to bait a terrifying, firebreathing monster and think "Yeah, I'm gonna go help that guy.  That's the best idea."

[Cee]

I think it would be key to Solas ever realizing any real piece that he's able to reconcile these two things. I mean, I hope he can recognize the potential in the current time and future, even while possibly working on ways to clarify the past. Even if the elves are no longer immortal beings of ultimate grace and magic, well, they're still there. They haven't been wiped out, though life has been difficult. But maybe some sort of solution that incorporates elements of both. He clings to and mourns for a past but sometimes regrets are misplaced. Not saying his decisions didn't have some terrible consequences, but as your Inquisitor can say, you can basically get up, dust yourself off, and start again to try and make a good future.

 

Solas takes that to heart as a confirmation of his feelngs and an indictment of his actions but those things are his interpretation, not what Lavellan or any other Inquisitor actually means.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Solas takes that to heart as a confirmation of his feelngs and an indictment of his actions but those things are his interpretation, not what Lavellan or any other Inquisitor actually means.

 

I worry about that line of his a little.  I mean, sure, you can keep trying, but if you never learn any lessons from what you've already done you'll also keep f***ing up.  SOLAS 

 

Hellspiralling too now.  I just want him to be happy and fulfilled and for all of his suffering and sacrifice to mean something.  IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK WEEKES 

[Meer]

With Solas, however, I think we ought to be wary assuming what his actions may ultimately be. The more I've though about his motivations, the less certain I am his aim is to put everything exactly as it once was. In our conversation with him after the Temple of Mythal, your Inquisitor can stutter out: "I'd put everything back as it was, but different." This response nets you approval, and Solas says he understands exactly what you mean. So I think to some degree Solas accepts and understand things ought to change, but his attachment to the past is too great to let things be. And I do believe that the present should be allowed to run its course, no matter how slow. Anything he might put into motion might be too quick and radical a change for it to take hold. Too much, too fast = a lot of instability and danger.

[Cee]

Hello hellspiral. I've missed you. *jumps in*.

 

 

I was attempting to write something more....fluffy.

[Sable Rhapsody]

And I do believe that the present should be allowed to run its course, no matter how slow. Anything he might put into motion might be too quick and radical a change for it to take hold. Too much, too fast = a lot of instability and danger.

 

See also: most major political revolutions, Dany's current storyline in ASoIAF/Game of Thrones, etc.  Which is part of why I have trouble buying Divine Leliana's ending if she's softened.  Radical change without serious upheaval is IMO more wishful thinking than anything.  

 

 

To be fair to Solas, think of how many "the future is so bleak we just have to prevent it from ever happening in the first place" narratives. Terminator, the Back to the Future alternate timeline where Biff became a big shot, the adult Trunks timeline in Dragon Ball Z, etc.

 

A lot of these narratives are also done from the perspective of the people who are trying to reset that future, not the people who inhabit that future in the first place.  Maybe Solas is right, and modern Thedas really does suck in comparison to Arlathan.  But modern Thedas has its own culture and inhabitants, who probably wouldn't appreciate having their world reset to suit someone else's fancy.  It's an interesting dilemma to be sure, and no one is in the right as far as we know.

[Maria13]

With Solas, however, I think we ought to be wary assuming what his actions may ultimately be. The more I've though about his motivations, the less certain I am his aim is to put everything exactly as it once was. In our conversation with him after the Temple of Mythal, your Inquisitor can stutter out: "I'd put everything back as it was, but different." This response nets you approval, and Solas says he understands exactly what you mean. So I think to some degree Solas accepts and understand things ought to change, but his attachment to the past is too great to let things be. And I do believe that the present should be allowed to run its course, no matter how slow. Anything he might put into motion might be too quick and radical a change for it to take hold. Too much, too fast = a lot of instability and danger.

 

I know this is terribly naive... But suppose it is not about resetting the world at all but about protecting it from further interference? I mean Corypheus nearly blew everything apart, there may be other magisters out there, demented gods, the old gods, the elven gods, the archdemons... Suppose he has set himself the task of forestalling some of these uglies?

 

Sure Solas is nostalgic for a long lost past but he seems pretty reasonable and pretty rational why are we assuming that he doesn't know and accept that what's done is done?

 

As people have pointed out numerous times he is not just assisting the inquisition, it is a two way process, he is getting to know new places, peoples and new civilizations and it does not seem that he is rejecting them, sure, he rejects some aspect of them but not everything. And he appears to be learning and growing...

 

Just a thought.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I know this is terribly naive... But suppose it is not about resetting the world at all but about protecting it from further interference? I mean Corypheus nearly blew everything apart, there may be other magisters out there, demented gods, the old gods, the elven gods, the archdemons... Suppose he has set himself the task of forestalling some of these uglies?

 

Sure Solas is nostalgic for a long lost past but he seems pretty reasonable and pretty rational why are we assuming that he doesn't know and accept that what's done is done?

 

As people have pointed out numerous times he is not just assisting the inquisition, it is a two way process, he is getting to know new places, peoples and new civilizations and it does not seem that he is rejecting them, sure, he rejects some aspect of them but not everything. And he appears to be learning and growing...

 

Just a thought.

 

It's not naive, and it's definitely a possibility given how the elven artifacts you collect supposedly work.  I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, some of my pessimism over Solas is just bracing for the worst-case scenario.  I'm deluding myself into thinking that it'll hurt less if I get all the horrible, hellspiral-y thoughts out of the way now 

[RebbyWriter]

 

Current Status: Writing Cole after Eating Chocolate-Covered Espresso Beans.

 

Patrick's latest tweet.

 

[Heidirs]

With Solas, however, I think we ought to be wary assuming what his actions may ultimately be. The more I've though about his motivations, the less certain I am his aim is to put everything exactly as it once was. In our conversation with him after the Temple of Mythal, your Inquisitor can stutter out: "I'd put everything back as it was, but different." This response nets you approval, and Solas says he understands exactly what you mean. So I think to some degree Solas accepts and understand things ought to change, but his attachment to the past is too great to let things be. And I do believe that the present should be allowed to run its course, no matter how slow. Anything he might put into motion might be too quick and radical a change for it to take hold. Too much, too fast = a lot of instability and danger.

To be fair to Solas, we don't know what he sees that's been lost, since the elves have undergone all but the last slivers of historical and cultural genocide. From our perspectives, Thedas is not that bad, so what's the big deal? From his perspective, maybe the world he remembers really was that wonderful (or at least had aspects that wonderful to it), and our current world really does suck that much by comparison.

 

While my knee-jerk reaction is "It's not that bad Solas, why can't you accept the world for what it is rather than what you want it to be?" And certainly my Lavellan's reaction is something similar (while she understands his love of the Fade, she sometimes worries that he spends so much time admiring the Fade that he forgets appreciate the real world its based on), I'm personally trying to withhold a value judgment until I know more about what he's trying to recover.

 

 

I do agree with the theory that Solas isn't so much as trying to reset the world, but more trying to bring back at least some of what was lost. And I'm not sure he's wrong in that desire.

 

The closest thing I can think of to relate it to is Native American history. They had their own cultures and lands, then invaders arrived an took everything from them. Those cultures survive today, but much of it is lost. Is it okay to look at it and say "well, this is what the world is now. Go with it"?

 

I'm not saying Solas should tear the world apart to get what he's after - and that's what nearly happened in Inquisition - but I don't think his drive for and commitment to the past is a bad one. The elves can fight to be recognized as legitimate citizens of Thedas and integrate... but at that point, it's assimulation than anything. If Solas can bring back something of what was... I don't know. But just because the world is going down a particular path doesn't mean it shouldn't set elsewhere. 

 

As as been said elsewhere, change happens all the time, and sometimes it happens majorly. There is no such thing as a "this is how it is" world state as that's just as likely to change from the "normal" flow of things. So again, Solas interjecting... I can't find much fault with it.

 

I'm rambling, so hopefully there's some sense in there.

[yetanothername]

The reason history is important is that it is a learning tool. We can be sad we lose certain things and try to preserve them, while others ought to be eradicated or reformed. We remember the past so we can build a better future, or some other such cliche. 

  The more I've though about his motivations, the less certain I am his aim is to put everything exactly as it once was.

 

I never really got the impression those were his motivations, so I'm glad you spelled out your thoughts. He really seems to leap at the opportunity to deconstruct anything romanticizing reality. I think he just wanted to make it better than it was. Seems part of his irritation with the Dalish. And part of his eye-rolling with Dorian's attempts at apologizing was just the idea that Arlathan was this mythical place of beauty that the Vints came in and destroyed, when it's of course more complicated than that - no more innocent than Tevinter in its time, after all. What is the core of his response? Free Tevinter's slaves - of all races. If you are sorry for the loss of the past, change the present. Can't do that? Then how sorry are you? How much are you willing to learn from history, and how willing are you to apply those lessons?

 

There's definitely a difference between wishing the past to return exactly as it was, and feeling sharply the melancholy of a time lost to us, wanting to preserve what can be preserved - look at all these history buffs of the last few pages, and none of us actually lived in those times... that I know of Gotta be weird for ancient elf guy, all torn between learning from the past, bringing back the good things, wondering why it's the stupid things that get remembered... "Of all the wonders that might have survived, why did the chamber pots of Elvhenan make it to the museums..."

 

The point about radical change being dangerous and unstable seems pretty applicable, at least as far as we've been led to infer. I'm not sure he'd have a lot of faith in people's ability to not just continue on as they are because it's how they've always done without a wake-up call - something to combat inertia. I suppose anything's possible, though. I guess we'll see. *grumble*

[nikki-tikki]

Random question. Does anyone have flycam footage of the fade when you are trying to find Kieran? I tried looking for the black city but I can't find it...and I don't have flycam. Idk I just want to see where it is.

[Armdin]

Hi guys.

 

I've been hellspiralling (if I understand the meaning of the term correctly) for the past couple of days, thinking that perhaps Solas intends to bring down humans (the main race that holds elves as second class citizens and keeps them there) and the Inquisitor/NewProtagforDA4 will have to fight against him because Inquisitor/NewProtag has to think about and protect everybody's well-beings, whereas Solas's disposition by the final cutscene seemed to indicate he's only thinking about the elves. That perhaps he could even intend to lead a new rebellion, taking up his old name. And it's not going to end well for him, because we've got to win against him.

 

I really need blanket fort and tiny Team Optimism flag. ;_;

[DarthEmpress]

here u go everyone enjoy

 

Spoiler

 

 

by enjoy i mean join me in slowly dying and cursing weekes

[Heidirs]

Hi guys.

 

I've been hellspiralling (if I understand the meaning of the term correctly) for the past couple of days, thinking that perhaps Solas intends to bring down humans (the main race that holds elves as second class citizens and keeps them there) and the Inquisitor/NewProtagforDA4 will have to fight against him because Inquisitor/NewProtag has to think about and protect everybody's well-beings, whereas Solas's disposition by the final cutscene seemed to indicate he's only thinking about the elves. That perhaps he could even intend to lead a new rebellion, taking up his old name. And it's not going to end well for him, because we've got to win against him.

 

I really need blanket fort and tiny Team Optimism flag. ;_;

 

I don't think Solas is trying to bring down humans. Yes, he's fighting for the elves, but he isn't anti-everything-not-elven. In the game, he approves of little helpful acts that you do, whether it's for humans or no. In the Hinterlands, he steps aside to help a couple humans up from the ground. Solas doesn't strike me as the destroy-everything kind of person. He wants good for everyone. And I think, if there were human slaves, he'd want to free them too. But right now, it's the elves that are hurting the most, and they're his people, and that's where his focus is.

 

I'm still not convinced he'll be the main antagonist of the next game. He strikes me as more of a behind-the-scenes kind of guy. I don't think he'd put himself in front of a major movement. I do think we'd have to encounter him at some point, but to have to hunt him down... The thing is, for me, Solas is too nuanced to be a main villain. I think a lot of people really like his character and wouldn't want to spend the whole game fighting against him like we did with Corypheus, and I don't that's what Weeks has in store for him. A lot of care has been taken into the shaping and reveal of his character and to just through him out there like Corypheus as the big bad? I don't see that happening.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I really need blanket fort and tiny Team Optimism flag. ;_;

 

 

There there.  *waves tiny Team Optimism flag*

[Armdin]

[snip]

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

There there.  *waves tiny Team Optimism flag*

 

-deep breaths- Thank you.

[Sable Rhapsody]

P.S. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm often picking on or singling out your posts, I dont' meant to. I just find a lot of your posts very thought-provoking, and I like exploring the insight they invoke. 

 

No, it's fine!  I love discussing narrative!

 

My BFF is actually writing a story arc for her D&D campaign that does a "bad future" where Cyric (the god of madness and lies) has taken over the world.  Except in the bad future, the PCs find versions of NPCs they've met before.  Some of them were villains they had to kill in the main timeline, but are heroes fighting for the resistance in the bad future.  A lot of them are really sympathetic.  They're meant to challenge the players and evoke that feeling of "Well, WTF do we do now?" because erasing the bad future would also mean erasing all these people who are trying to make their world a better place instead of just pressing reset.  I'm really curious to see what her players will do with it.

 

Or, conversely, (and keeping this on-topic with Solas) it would be interesting if BioWare went the route that Solas wants to correct past wrongs, and the POV protagonist is eventually supposed to "see the light" and support him in his endeavor. After all, secondary characters in other "the future sucks, let's rewrite the past" narratives are expected to get on board. It certainly happened when the Inquisitor tried to stop the Elder One's future in DAI. Does that change just because it's our collective audience POV present that's at stake?

 

I don't think they will, but I think it would be interesting. 

 

I don't think they will either, and if they tried, it would be very hard to implement.  As the player (and by extension the PC), it's hard for us to decouple our attachment to Thedas.  The Thedas setting that we've fallen in love with is the modern one.  That's the one we've known and nerded out over since 2009 or earlier.  So it makes sense that some protagonist-centered morality sneaks in there.  

[BoscoBread]

No, this makes perfect sense, and I think you explained this much better (and probably way less offensively) than I could.

 

Like you said, it's very likely that Solas isn't trying to "rewind" or "rewrite" history or hurt humans in anyway, he might just be trying recover part of history or alter part of the present. Not too bad, not too invasive, and likely to prove very sympathetic.

 

At least, I hope so. After their very negative portrayals of Dalish and ancient elves in the last few novels and games, I'm starting to get worried. 

I didn't see the view of the ancient elves as all that negative. Just realistic.  I actually find all the ones we've met so far as quite sympathetic. I feel pretty bad for them. Their society was no more innocent than any others.  I'm actually happy the way things are shaping up with them. Makes the story so interesting and after the DLC with mention of The Forgotten Ones, I'm very excited for more.

 

 Solas/Abelas acerbic natures are understandable if not unforgivable.   Watching their entire civilization collapse or waking up and seeing the world utterly changed beyond recognition. They get some free passes.

 

The Dalish...yah. I'll give you that one.  It's not that they are bad portrayals perse. Just that I can't get a handle on what the **** the writers are trying to do with them.