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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#99876
Moirin

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Ahh. I don't really see it 'cause he's not making the same hand gesture in any of the cards. I wonder if it was deliberate or an oversight.

 

Again, I think you misunderstood me (that or I am misunderstanding you). The hand gesture Solas is making is not symbolic of Solas himself, but only the Hierophant tarot card, Solas' romanced card only. The sign of benediction is the hand gesture Solas is making on his romanced card but turned on it's side. He's not supposed to be making the hand gesture in his other two cards.



#99877
Illyria

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I think most of the time BioWare handle it quite well, but then we get moments like ME3's ending and a lot of people (at least that I spoke to) said largely the same thing; "That wasn't my Shepard." I swear to the Maker I will let ME3 go someday... Someday. I still love you BioWare!

 

It's a balancing act. If the point of the game is to enable you to create your own character, to create yourself in the world, things that go against or contradict that can be quite jarring.

 

I'm not disagreeing by the way. ^^

 

Edit: I've been commenting for an hour and I've double-posted a few times. Sorry! x) Also I can't grammer, clearly. >_<

 

It's getting the balance between allowing the player control over the protagonist and the devs telling the story they want to tell.  ME3 handled it badly because it took a lot of choice away from the player.  The Dragon Age games have handled it better because they're not limited by having one protagonist throughout multiple games and they allow for more freedom while herding us towards the conclusion (it's not possible to ignore the Blight like the Dragonborn can just straight up ignore Alduin and spend the rest of the game stealing cabbages from Nazeem's house and selling them Serverio, but you do get to choose who joins you in the final battle, who rules the land and lots of little things).

 

It just seems like a lot of fans have this mindset that Bioware should have zero canon for DA despite the devs having a canon is a nessessity for writing the story (they need to have their own worldstate they can use to write the future games in, after all).  Dragon Age does seem to have several defaults/canons since the comics seem to be set in a worldstate where the Dark Ritual was performed and Alistair slept with Bela meaning the Warden was female, romanced Alistair and still alive which is rather different from the Dalish worldstate.


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#99878
Moirin

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Was it? I'd like to see evidence.

 

If you're saying that because the "default" worldstate for DAI is a Dalish Warden who sacrificed her to the Archdemon, the problem is, Bioware has said that their default worldstate =/= canon worldstate.

 

Not to mention that the original default World State (for Dragon Age 2) was a male Cousland if I'm not mistaken.



#99879
Illyria

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Not to mention that the original default World State (for Dragon Age 2) was a male Cousland if I'm not mistaken.

 

I don't see how the Cousland worldstate being the default changes the Dalish being canon.  That's the worldstate they opted to use in the Keep for all future games to use if the import function is ignored.



#99880
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Before I answer, I think the conclusion the article you quoted is full of it.

 

 

Yeah, and the elven god chose a human host (Flemeth) rather than an elven, chose a human daughter to pass her spark of Godhood onto rather than an elven daughter (and God only knows how many more before her, if the body Flemeth inhabits in DAO - DAI was indeed another daughter she passed her "spark of godhood" onto like Morrigan claims), said human daughter knows more about elven history than any modern elves do (not counting ancient elves who were there like Solas and Abelas), is shown to activate ancient elven technology without a hitch whereas an elven character that tried to do the same thing in DA2 (Merrill) was treated as messing with powers too great for her to understand, and--oh yeah, the "player character's steps" she "has been guiding since day one" were all written with HUMAN protagonists in mind!

 

The whole thing reeks of the Mighty Whitey Trope - coded European Christian characters quickly learning more about and mastering coded indigenous/minority culture, technology, etc better than they can. An elven goddess prefers a human host and daughters, said human daughter quickly masters elven lore and technology better than any elven characters do, and the protagonists they help along (who each also learn more about elven technology than most elven characters do) were all written with humans in mind.

 

Elves may turn out to be "the most important race in the series," but if it's treated like human characters are active players who move the game forward while the elves are merely the ball to be kicked back and forth, with little to no agency over their own history, culture, legacy, and future, then it is depowering and indeed problematic.

 

In fact, I should make a separate post about this in the Feedback section.

 

Of course you are right. I think that the writers got themselves into this mess because they wanted to make Morrie into a very special snowflake...


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#99881
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TOP post:

Remember that chess game Solas played with Iron Bull in the party banter? Someone figured out all the plays a week ago. You can read about it and watch it being played out here (complete with the banter, game history, and everything). It was an actual game in history played in the first international tournaments.

 

Ah, yeah, this, the identification of the chess match, has been known for some time.


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#99882
Moirin

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I don't see how the Cousland worldstate being the default changes the Dalish being canon.  That's the worldstate they opted to use in the Keep for all future games to use if the import function is ignored.

 

Wouldn't it suggest that the Dailish elf canon wasn't always intended as the canon?

 

I'm not trying to interject on the argument, I was just pointing out the the Dalish elf wasn't always the default/canon world state. Sorry. *hides*


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#99883
Illyria

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Wouldn't it suggest that the Dailish elf canon wasn't always intended as the canon?

 

I'm not trying to interject on the argument, I was just pointing out the the Dalish elf wasn't always the default/canon world state. Sorry. *hides*

 

Or excutive meddling got them to change it to a more generic default...

 

The fact that Mahariel's dad is in the first book, and the elven lore stuff has been planned for years indicates that Dalish is canon.



#99884
Maria13

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Erm, well it's explains the hand gesture itself, not the direction it's pointed or the position his hand is in while making the gesture or why the female elf's hand is the way it is. I wasn't trying to disprove you headcanon, just explaining the gesture itself.

 

The Hierophant card is also known as The Pope and the hand gesture in question is traditionally this one:

 

popesign1.jpg

 

It's also quite common in depictions of christ or the apostles:

 

6thcenjesus.jpg

 

Here's a rather convoluted explanation of the traditional meaning:

 

This gesture, in which his first two fingers and his thumb are extended and his third and fourth finger are closed, is among the most frequently occurring of Christ's hand gestures in Christian art. It emerged as a sign of benediction (or blessing) in early Christian and Byzantine art, and its use continued through the Medieval period, and into the Renaissance.

The sign is most frequently seen in iconographic images of Christ, which appeared in churches in the Early Byzantine and Medieval periods in the form of mosaics, stained glass windows, relief sculptures, and paintings. One of the most common of such images is the Christ Pantocrator (or Christ Almighty), which depicts Christ, usually isolated against a golden background, with his head encircled by a halo, his left arm hugging the gospels to his chest and his right hand raised in the sign of benediction. It is important to note that this gesture is always made with the right hand, as this is the hand with which one blesses, according to Christian doctrine.

The sign was originally derived from a symbol used in Roman art to indicate speaking, and first gained popularity as a Christian symbol shortly after Constantine's issue of the Edict of Milan in 313 AD, allowing Christians to practice their religion freely, without the threat of persecution. Indeed, Constantine himself converted to Christianity, and Christian art flourished. In early images of Christ, one can see an early manifestation of the sign of benediction in which the thumb is closed over the palm, rather than open. As Christian art evolved, symbols, including Christ's hand gestures, took on deeper significance. With the thumb opened, the three open digits came to represent the Trinity (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), while the two closed represented the dual nature of Christ as both man and God.

 

When the Church split early in the second century AD, the symbol for blessing used by the two newly-formed churches likewise split. The Greek Orthodox church began to make use of a symbol derived from a common abbreviation of the Greek version of Christ's name. In this manifestation of the sign of blessing, the first finger is held erect, representing an 'I'; the second is bent in the shape of a 'C'; the thumb and third finger cross to form an 'X'; and the pinky, like the second finger, curves into a 'C'. Thus, the five digits together spell out "IC XC" an abbreviation of the Greek name of Jesus Christ, taken from the first and last letters of both parts of his name. The Roman Catholic Church, meanwhile, maintained the use of the three open digits and two closed (now so familiar to Westerners). The early sign, in which the thumb is closed, had by this time faded almost completely.

With the onset of the Renaissance in Western Europe, the sign of benediction became less common in Christian art, due primarily to the shift away from iconographic images of Christ-as-Savior towards more naturalistic depictions, emphasizing the human in Christ over the God. Unlike the highly stylized, reverence-inspiring images of old, Renaissance art presented a more realistic image of Christ as he would have appeared to those who saw him in the flesh. He was more likely to be painted in the humiliation of betrayal, or the agony of death, than in the glory of Christ Pantocrator.

Still, the gesture does occasionally appear; though void of the characteristic rigidity of earlier icons, it takes on a rather casual feel, more akin to a guy flashing a "peace" sign than to The Savior bestowing his blessing.

 

In Solas' hierophant card he seems to making a similar gesture but seen from the side. As the comment suggests the gesture precedes Christianity.



#99885
Moirin

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Or excutive meddling got them to change it to a more generic default...

 

The fact that Mahariel's dad is in the first book, and the elven lore stuff has been planned for years indicates that Dalish is canon.

 

Is he? I didn't know that. *goes back to read book*

 

Well, I'll agree to disagree. I don't think Origins was written around a Dalish Warden canon, but yes, I agree it is the canon now.


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#99886
Junebug

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Again, I think you misunderstood me (that or I am misunderstanding you). The hand gesture Solas is making is not symbolic of Solas himself, but only the Hierophant tarot card, Solas' romanced card only. The sign of benediction is the hand gesture Solas is making on his romanced card but turned on it's side. He's not supposed to be making the hand gesture in his other two cards.

I-I wasn't saying it was...*runs away*

 

no jk but really. I guess that's one interpretation. I still don't see it as the Hierophant gesture in the romanced card because in the orignal image, he's just touching leaves. He doesn't have his two fingers together as if it symbolize the peace sign but it is similar, pointing upward and everything. But I like that it could mean a sign of benediction as well so I can accept both if it is or isn't  :D

 

(omg how 2 english pls)


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#99887
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I-I wasn't saying it was...*runs away*

 

You get back here. :P

 

tumblr_mm9n3sdycy1ry1y7qo7_400.gif


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#99888
Illyria

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Is he? I didn't know that. *goes back to read book*

 

Well, I'll agree to disagree. I don't think Origins was written around a Dalish Warden canon, but yes, I agree it is the canon now.

 

He's not mentioned by name but it's implied its him.



#99889
Moirin

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The Hierophant card is also known as The Pope and the hand gesture in question is traditionally this one:

 

*snip*

 

It's also quite common in depictions of christ or the apostles:

*snip*

 

Here's a rather convoluted explanation of the traditional meaning:

 

In Solas' hierophant card he seems to making a similar gesture but seen from the side. As the comment suggests the gesture precedes Christianity.

 

Yes, I knew all that. I wasn't actually questioning why Solas' sign of benediction gesture was turned to the side, I was trying to make it fit with Armdin's headcanon so as not to destroy it is all. :P

 

 

I-I wasn't saying it was...*runs away*

 

no jk but really. I guess that's one interpretation. I still don't see it as the Hierophant gesture in the romanced card because in the orignal image, he's just touching leaves. He doesn't have his two fingers together as if it symbolize piece. But I like that interpretation as well so I can except both :D

 

Like I said then, I was misunderstanding you then.  :)

 

The gesture is still there in Solas' card, it's just turned sideways.

 

 

He's not mentioned by name but it's implied its him.

 

Where about is it? When they first run into the Dalish?


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#99890
Illyria

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Where about is it? When they first run into the Dalish?

 

Pretty sure that's where he is.  It's been a while since I read it.


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#99891
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Have you ever listened to FKA twigs' LP1? Most of that album says 'sex music' to me. It's been a slight writing inspiration getting those songs stuck in my head.

I've always found the vallaslin removal super intimate. But the whole scene in general...he's always touching her in some way. And when he decides to end it and, if you choose a sad option, he has to wave her away to basically not come touch him and pull him back in...he can't even touch her....it's pretty powerful.

You get back here. :P

Ooooooh, I'm loving this sound. Thanks for the recommendation :D and yeah, that scene...ugh...it just breaks my heart. I don't know if I saw a gifset or a video of the free cam version of the sad option...it was just heartbreaking how he backed away as if touching her would just break him and make him cave in...and it probably would have.

 

You are such a gem <3

 

Ah, yeah, this, the identification of the chess match, has been known for some time.

Darn it. I thought I stumbled on some breakthrough *kicks rocks* Oh well, still fun XD


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#99892
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I was trying to make it fit with Armdin's headcanon so as not to destroy it is all. :P

 

TOO LITTLE TOO LATE, BUDDY! *flounces away*

... I don't know how one goes about flouncing away, but rest assured I'm doing it with all my might!


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#99893
Maria13

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Yes, I knew all that. I wasn't actually questioning why Solas' sign of benediction gesture was turned to the side, I was trying to make it fit with Armdin's headcanon so as not to destroy it is all. :P

 

 

I think Armadin's head canon is still valid, very clearly the gestures from the two cards are linked... Teacher, pupil, guru, acolyte, lovers...

 

But there is no physical contact... Is the bond between them broken or are they separated by invisible barriers?


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#99894
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I should be doing other things. And yet.

Spoiler


#99895
Cee

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All our Lavellans whenever Solas appears again. (Note the one stoic one in the back).

 

expedition.gif

 

Did this really make a new page?

 

Okay then, this is always a fun one.

 

 

picking_herbs_with_solas_by_shaylynb-d7e


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#99896
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My two cents on this:
 

 

Yeah, and the elven god chose a human host (Flemeth) rather than an elven, chose a human daughter to pass her spark of Godhood onto rather than an elven daughter (and God only knows how many more before her, if the body Flemeth inhabits in DAO - DAI was indeed another daughter she passed her "spark of godhood" onto like Morrigan claims), said human daughter knows more about elven history than any modern elves do (not counting ancient elves who were there like Solas and Abelas), is shown to activate ancient elven technology without a hitch whereas an elven character that tried to do the same thing in DA2 (Merrill) was treated as messing with powers too great for her to understand, and--oh yeah, the "player character's steps" she "has been guiding since day one" were all written with HUMAN protagonists in mind!

 

*cough*if Dragon Age ever feels like it's meant for a human playthrough it might be because the person playing is human *COUGH*sympathetic*COUGH*
 
I wouldn't know, though, I always play as an elf when I can, and I dig the depth it goes in to if you're an elf in this game. I could really care less what was held -in mind- whilst writing the thing. It goes well for all playable races. The dialogue differences, everything. Bioware does a great job at that. I think the most important thing to remember if you fling those sorts of accusations around are that it -was- originally thought the humans were kind of like the conquerors, and the elves the wildlings that became sickened and slaves. The best stories take from experiences and histories we can associate with. Now we know that there was an ancient culture that pre-dates the fall of the elves to their lack luster selves, and they warred amongst each other to bring about their own demise. The humans were just picking up the pieces. But then again, I have my own theories on where this game is headed and the canon that will sprout in future releases :>
 
Also, when mentioning Mythal's story and outrage at her choosing a human over an elf, if you ask her about it -- it goes something like Flemeth had a lover, and her husband killed him, then imprisoned her. That betrayal and desire for justice is what put a kinship between Flemeth's soul and Mythal's. Not a pair of pointy ears. It's also worth adding that the 'elven gods' are intelligent, so Mythal would have known the status quo when she possessed Flemeth (Flemeth being of nobility)... which would highlight certain theories that Flemeth used her influences to help the Dalish. I think those are only theories, though.

Oh. And someone else asked about Flemeth's age or something, I think? I'm curious about that too, since it says she takes her daughters. But as far as I'm aware, Flemeth/Mythal have shared the same body for many years... (I presumed life extension from being possessed).
 


#99897
Illyria

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I should be doing other things. And yet.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler


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#99898
Illyria

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All our Lavellans whenever Solas appears again. (Note the one stoic one in the back).

 

expedition.gif

 

Did this really make a new page?

 

Okay then, this is always a fun one.

 

 

picking_herbs_with_solas_by_shaylynb-d7e

 

It's just struck me how old that peice of fanart is.  It doesn't have the tunic flap thing and he's wearing shoes.


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#99899
Cee

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Yep, that fanart is very very old. Based on almost nothing but early promos. It still makes me laugh though.



#99900
Illyria

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Yep, that fanart is very very old. Based on almost nothing but early promos. It still makes me laugh though.

 

I remember when it first got posted here.  Still a good one.  It's just strange to see how fans viewed Solas back then.


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