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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#100001
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I think everyone is open to their interpretation of events, and that's cool. If you RP the part of a slighted elf reclaiming her culture and sticking it to the humans, frustrated that they are outplaying your people in elfy things, all the power to you! And if not, still, all the power to you  :D

 

No, no power to me. That's my point. I'll never be able to play that way since BioWare is absolutely determined to pull the rug out from under elven characters.  :?

 

But ... you're ignoring what I said. "The best stories take from experiences and histories we can associate with." -- and all the power to Bioware for invoking that. See how it's stirred you up? You should give them credit, not complaint. As Canadian, Bioware probably has a better understanding of that sort of thing than many other parts of the world.

Erm... Not from where I'm standing.

 

In Thedas, apparently humans > elves, and Thedas humans are like European Christians while Thedas elves are Jew/Gypsy Afro-Native Americans. Since I was raised as an impoverished Jew and got stepped on by rich white privileged jerks my whole life (the City Elf Origin hits way too close to home), it really frosts my cookies to see BioWare setting up an "underdog rises above the oppressor" narrative but then turns around and says, "Just kidding. You can only rise above if you're already privileged, but you can't escape bone-crushing reality if you're part of a minority. Also, no matter what you try to do to change the unfair system, it will get undone in the long run. Also, all the negative things the majority said about your people turn out to be true after all." (Read: All of DAI's horrible revelations about the elves.)

 

Remember (was it in the Exalted Plains?) when the Olesians try to master the might of that weapon that sets things afire with its light? Total carnage from their foibles. They don't know how to handle everything, after all. But the Tevinters -did- sack and enslave the elves, remember, even if the elves imploded on themselves before that. So if there were anything left to be sacked, the Tevinters took it. The elves who escaped were cast out and live off of memory and whatever artefacts they managed to retain. So of course humans would have a deeper knowledge over the years. Elves were still outcasts and would likely not be allowed to study these things, they rely on the word of mouth (which of course, became muddied and forgotten over time). The elves regressed, clinging to a memory that changed and shifted over the centuries. Humans advanced. Elves, for all intents and purposes, staled themselves. Or at least, this is how I interpreted it. Correct me if I'm mistaken!

 

That's my problem. Apparently humans are capable of handling their own affairs, but the elves are so incapable of self-governing that they destroyed themselves when they had their own homeland (Elvhenan, Dales), and are so incapable of rising above the disadvantages that society forced upon them, that they need human characters to do it for them. It reeks of paternalism, and I can't stand it.

 

But for your Morrigan arguments, remember that she was -raised- by Flemythal. So she has had tutelage by an elven god. Conditioned by her. Of course she'd know more than the Dalish, and she would be open to more than them, too. The Dalish suffer from pride, and would be far from willing to accept conclusions that their Keepers didn't teach them (and which is why Solas is so infuriated with them). Merrill, I felt, likes to go against the grain. Mythal is still what she was. She just possesses the body of a human who is more alike with her and her goals than any other host was at the time. Can't fault her that. Also recall that descendants of humans and elves are still human. For all we know, Morrigan or even Flemeth may be elf blooded. Not that I think it matters.

 

 
Exactly. BioWare CHOSE to write it so that every elven character has to deal with the confines of their own social system (city elves are under the mercy of human lords and Dalish have to keep traveling to remain a moving target, and so can't make too much headway on recovering their past), but human characters get to be the special exception that get to rise above it. Mythal picked a human woman as her host because apparently only a human woman could possibly have gone through something that she could relate to; apparently human girls like Morrigan and Yvana are "Flemeth's daughters" because only a human is good enough for her.
 
Would it have ruined them to write situations for elven characters to rise above or get set apart from their average people's limitations and find the opportunity to learn of their past and positively influence their people's future? Of course it would! Why would they do such a thing? Not when they can keep portraying elves as too incapable of learning their own lore, utilizing their own technology, and taking charge of their own destinies to make any meaningful changes. Meanwhile, human characters seem to keep finding themselves in situations where they can not only control their own destinies, but they can do so for the elves better than the elves can.
 
ALSO, I can't stand their portrayal of the Dalish. Of all the Thedas cultures shown so far, the Dalish's big crime is that they (as a culture) refuse to bow to their human oppressors or passively give into cultural genocide, and for that they've been portrayed as the arguably most dickish culture in Thedas.

 

I think DA:I has made it abundantly clear that elves ARE the most important race in the story. They seem to be at the heart of a catalyst and (in my head canon) they shaped the world. They just aren't what they used to be, and that's understandable given their histories. You can't expect a good story to be free of social flaws and tyranny, can you? Actions and consequences, and all that. Most importantly I think we need to think how the humans absorbed what they could from the elves they overtook, and the elves left over lost all that they were. Expecting elves to know more about elves is a little brash, considering DA:I goes on and on about how LITTLE truth the elves really know these days. But I think they will come in to their own again. They're just uh... going through a thing! ;P
 
If they are, they are merely tools to be utilized by human characters for human struggles and human gain. Mark my words, the elves will not be active players in the discovery of their own history/lore, the revival of their own culture/magic, wielders of their magics/technologies, or the deciding factors in their own futures. Human characters will be discovering and using all of this, and the elven characters will be passively moved around like chess pieces. Cultural appropriation at its finest.
 
In the Dalish club, someone had commented about how the Dragon Age Origins "theme song" was elvish, and yet the default protagonist is human and the character singing the song in the game is Leliana. The person then mentioned, "I know you can't appropriate a culture that doesn't exist, but I find it off that BioWare uses the elves to 'prettify' their game but has no intention of representing the people faithfully."

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#100002
nikki-tikki

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YpAn4ZJ.gif

 

So. About that Egghead guy...is there anything we haven't discussed yet...


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#100003
Rabbitonfire

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il_340x270.555468042_tege.jpg

 

Wanna bang?


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#100004
nikki-tikki

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il_340x270.555468042_tege.jpg

 

Wanna bang?

hUeK0Jr.gif


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#100005
Cee

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Yes. It's...ok.  You get the stories in the full book. They pretty much just shrunk them down into a tiny children's book.  So...not really interesting. 

 

Hmm, okay.  Thanks for sating my curiousity. I have tried not to peek at all the Tumblr posts with book info but I have not quite succeeded in avoiding them.



#100006
Cee

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Just decided to try DAI multiplayer for the first time. Let's just say that went horribly. I do wish all of the classes were available and you had at least some skill points. I tried Keeper and there was no one else in the match until a few rooms in when some rogue archer drops in. The new DLC should bring people back, and I'll try again. I'm sure I'll enjoy it more once I can unlock assassin.

 

And now I am back on mage Lavellan.  Hello Solas and wind gusts at Haven. :wub:



#100007
Junebug

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Just decided to try DAI multiplayer for the first time. Let's just say that went horribly. 

And now I am back on mage Lavellan.  Hello Solas and wind gusts at Haven. :wub:

Yeah, my first experience wasn't great either but after trying some more, I kinda like it :3 I see why people were complaining about loot drops but honestly, I just wanna see Isabela :D I'm totally down to play with you if you'd like (not right now XD)!



#100008
Cee

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Yeah, my first experience wasn't great either but after trying some more, I kinda like it :3 I see why people were complaining about loot drops but honestly, I just wanna see Isabela :D I'm totally down to play with you if you'd like (not right now XD)!

 

Definitely planning to try again after the new DLC. I'm just sort of playing around on my mage at the moment. she'll be getting a little bit of a makeover once Black Emporium is up.



#100009
madrar

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*sneaks in to celebrate 4k*

Spoiler

*sneaks back out*


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#100010
Cee

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Those freckles. :wub:


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#100011
RebelishGirl

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Wow we've actually reached 4000. I remember when I posted in the first side because of changing the user reponsible for the thread! (though I had to switch account.. my points R.I.P) 
 
I wonder , are there still left some of the ones I was crazy with in the beginning?  ^_^  :ph34r:


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#100012
Siha

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If I've misunderstood the point of your post, I apologise, I tend to do that a lot. 

 
Yeah... right...
 

Origins did a great job of making each origin relevant, there is always a mission that ties back to the origin story. The only exception is the Dalish origin, but it ties in well with Witch Hunt and DA:2.

 
Why, we do go back to the Dalish origin, no? When meeting Tamlen in the Temple of Sacred Ashes. I think it's always Tamlen, unless I really confuse things now.
 

BioWare based Andrastian humans of European Christians (and the Rivaini on Moorish Spaniards), and elves based on real-world minority people; Jews, Gypsies, Afro-Native Americans, etc. Rather than treating this distinction with sensitivity, they feel no qualms about applying real-world problematic tropes with real-world problematic connotations by having white European Christians human characters consistently upstage indigenous folks elves with their own lore/culture/technology.

 

In Thedas, apparently humans > elves, and Thedas humans are like European Christians while Thedas elves are Jew/Gypsy Afro-Native Americans. Since I was raised as an impoverished Jew and got stepped on by rich white privileged jerks my whole life (the City Elf Origin hits way too close to home), it really frosts my cookies to see BioWare setting up an "underdog rises above the oppressor" narrative but then turns around and says, "Just kidding. You can only rise above if you're already privileged, but you can't escape bone-crushing reality if you're part of a minority. Also, no matter what you try to do to change the unfair system, it will get undone in the long run. Also, all the negative things the majority said about your people turn out to be true after all." (Read: All of DAI's horrible revelations about the elves.)

 
characters to rise above or get set apart from their average people's limitations and find the opportunity to learn of their past and positively influence their people's future?

 
Your actual problem seems to be that BioWare shows us a world too realistic. In our world, minorities suffer. They are usually oppressed, leading to them developing an underlying hostility, which again leads to seclusion. Not seldom do they have a lower education therefore. They often lose their original culture and language, trying to keep it alive but often messing up. I know little about Jews but I did see other minorities and what BW shows me is something I have seen in real life. Being as underprivileged as minorities often are, it is just realistic to show that they can hardly hold a candle to majority representatives, who have a better education and better resources. Not nice, not funny, not motivating, but realistic.

You however wish BW showed a different world, a world where the minority suddenly surpasses the majority. But how would that work? If it worked, how would they still be such a minority? (If all poor Brazilian slum kids rose to become great football players in Europe, subsequently helping their folks back home to build and improve, how would there still be any Brazilian slums left?)

I understand your desire, but from a story perspective they just can't do that. If a whole bunch of elves suddenly overtrumped the humans, how do you justify them staying a suppressed minority? But in the DA universe, it is important to have the suppression of the elves, because if you lose it you only have the Tevinter slaves left and we hardly even met any so far.
 
However, BW still lets you be the one elf "underdog that rises above the oppressor". You, the Warden or Inquisitor, can be the one most skilled, the one to surpass humans and modern Thedas society. By lowering the elves in general, the elven player character is enabled (anything still standing in the way of this is due to budget issues). Also you got a previous inquisitor who was an elf, Fiona being an elf, Orsino who was en elf and so on. You have single examples of elves being superior to their human contestants throughout the story. That there are only single examples, see above. If it were all elves, they could hardly still be convincingly oppressed.

 

Apart from this, I agree with what Keith and ChuChu said on the topic.

 

About Merrill (spoilered TLTR):

Spoiler

 

I'm genuinely sorry for the walls of text I drop on you guys. Seems like I'm making up for Caddius's absence.


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#100013
Illyria

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*sneaks in to celebrate 4k*

Spoiler

*sneaks back out*

 

*grabs hold of madrar*

 

DON'T LEAVE US AGAIN!


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#100014
Illyria

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Spoiler

 

I'm also working on this prompt!

 

This is just a W.I.P. I am taking this far too seriously.  Funnily enough, they start exactly the same way.

 

Spoiler

 

Not that great at the moment.  Actually planning on expanding this.


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#100015
MoonDrummer

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Yeah... right...
 

 
Why, we do go back to the Dalish origin, no? When meeting Tamlen in the Temple of Sacred Ashes. I think it's always Tamlen, unless I really confuse things now.

We do, but every origin gets to see a family member or friend at the Temple of Secret Ashes. What I meant was that there is always a mission that ties into the origin story, whether its killing Jarvia, Howe, or the Alienage slavers. That is missing for the Dalish, until Witch Hunt that is.


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#100016
Sifr

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hUeK0Jr.gif

 

Am I late to the party or has everyone else arrived to the conclusion that Joel totally looks like Hawke?

 

:blink:

 

And in celebration of Page 4000, I will now share my interpretation of what Solas' internal reaction was, when he first saw Lavellan...

 

Spoiler

 

:lol: :P


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#100017
The Elder King

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We do, but every origin gets to see a family member or friend at the Temple of Secret Ashes. What I meant was that there is always a mission that ties into the origin story, whether its killing Jarvia, Howe, or the Alienage slavers. That is missing for the Dalish, until Witch Hunt that is.

Agreed. I think mages suffered as well. They do have a connection (obviously), but I didn't feel as engaged as CE, HN and dwarves in their plots.
About The Temple, that scene was great, Though I its effect on varies from origin to origin. It had a deeper impact with the dalish, HN and DN compared to the others to me.

#100018
Heidirs

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My Lavellan opted to not drink based on Cole's emphatic "you don't want that." I mean, it wasn't the ONLY reason she chose not to, but that kind of sealed it for her.

 

Ooooh. I never took Cole to the Temple... I'll have to try that next time. I'm still trying to nail down my favorite party for that mission.



#100019
MoonDrummer

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Both of my Elfinqs drank from the well, not doing so would have been out of character for them. If Bioware makes a decision that comes back to bite my backside, I'll be pleasantly surprised. 



#100020
Illyria

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We do, but every origin gets to see a family member or friend at the Temple of Secret Ashes. What I meant was that there is always a mission that ties into the origin story, whether its killing Jarvia, Howe, or the Alienage slavers. That is missing for the Dalish, until Witch Hunt that is.

 

The attack on camp quest near the end of the game ties into the Dalish origin.
 



#100021
Rabbitonfire

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Am I late to the party or has everyone else arrived to the conclusion that Joel totally looks like Hawke?

 

:blink:

 

 

:lol: :P

Just add a blood smear across his face.



#100022
Exaltation

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So how powerful is Solas now and what he intends to do?

Mythal + Fen'Harel (+ Urthemiel + Fade Time Magic) = 3XQcnaV.gif

#100023
Rabbitonfire

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@ Exaltation: not much. he was weak when he woke up to the point he couldn't use an orb and had to take mythal to further his plans, and though flemeth was powerful, not really godly powerful. Mythal was just a wisp when it found flemeth. And time magic has been around  such as "slow debuff" or "haste" but the ability to move through longer passage of time is new and the reason alexius and dorian were able to successfully risk using it was due to years of research and luck. Having Alexius work/research time magic for the inquisition is only an judgement option, not written in stone.

 

edit: also pretty sure Urthemiel was the spirit flemeth shoved into the the eluvian.


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#100024
Heidirs

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edit: also pretty sure Urthemiel was the spirit flemeth shoved into the the eluvian.

 

Not sure how this would work for players who did not do the Dark Ritual.


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#100025
Exaltation

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Doesn't she still transfer something in the Eluvian even if Kieran wasn't born?
Could be a piece of Mythal's soul transferred to Morrigan's Eluvian or some other place to keep her alive like in DA2.
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