Well, you don't have to be a spirit (or possessed) to be a fanatic. Just look at Adrian or Lord Seeker Lambert from Asunder. Or Meredith; even before the lyrium idol, she wasn't all there. The impression I got was that Andraste got wound up in her own legend. The same thing can happen to any of the DA PCs, especially the Inquisitor.
I do have all the Maferath feels now. Poor guy
Join me in the Maferath hellspirial, Sable.
That was the thing I noticed the most in WoT2. Maferath was painted as EXTREMELY sympathetic. To the point I wonder if he truly was the betrayer we were meant to see him as. Not only did he NOT hoard all of the territory he and Andraste conquered -- he split it equally amongst his children so as to create a substantial buffer of power against Tevinter -- his actions allowed Andraste to become a martyr.
I now wonder if Andraste was cunning enough to allow herself to become a martyr and Maferath agreed to play the role of betrayer to conquer the hearts of the people if they couldn't do it by land alone.
Also... has anyone read the WoT2 section about Andraste's half-sister? There is some WEIRD stuff going on there. I transcribed it a couple days ago if anyone is interested.
I like this idea. The greatest sacrifice for love: becoming the Betrayer.
I have to ask, has anyone gone into what we see in Origins at Haven? The Gauntlet, I mean. We get to see Shartan and Maferath and the rest and they present riddles - what's the idea on this, it's all just illusion? Or is what they say a true representation? Because the Guardian is supposed to be the actual spirit of someone who lived at the time. I get it that it could be simply designed to "see into" pilgrims, like when your mirror selves attack your party, it could all just be some hocus pocus based on the Chantry lore created after Andraste, but do we reallly know if this is the case?
I only wonder because so much of the speculation regarding this seems to veer heavily from what I heard there, going on theories that largely assume that we don't know our history accurately (which is usually true). I just find it... odd that we get so much "insight" there about this period and yet I haven't really seen a lot of speculation on that information.
Perhaps this has been addressed before and I just missed it, in which case I'll just shut up. 
I'm trying out mods again and I got a retexture of the merc coat you wear at the start of the game.
I equiped it on Solas.
Anyone who thinks Solas looks best in Warden armour needs to go do this now.
Because wow.
I like this idea. The greatest sacrifice for love: becoming the Betrayer.
I have to ask, has anyone gone into what we see in Origins at Haven? The Gauntlet, I mean. We get to see Shartan and Maferath and the rest and they present riddles - what's the idea on this, it's all just illusion? Or is what they say a true representation? Because the Guardian is supposed to be the actual spirit of someone who lived at the time. I get it that it could be simply designed to "see into" pilgrims, like when your mirror selves attack your party, it could all just be some hocus pocus based on the Chantry lore created after Andraste, but do we reallly know if this is the case?
I only wonder because so much of the speculation regarding this seems to veer heavily from what I heard there, going on theories that largely assume that we don't know our history accurately (which is usually true). I just find it... odd that we get so much "insight" there about this period and yet I haven't really seen a lot of speculation on that information.
Perhaps this has been addressed before and I just missed it, in which case I'll just shut up.
So interesting thing in one of the World of Thedas 2 pages on the Chant of Light. There are a number of people who wrote about visions of what would happen when the Maker was to return and the steps coming up to it. The first verse in the section called Potents of the Maker's Return from Exaltations 1 seems to be about the reawakening of the Titans in the West. The second about Zathrian's werewolf curse moving past generations of men vs. elves to the elves themselves becoming infected PLUS the reawakening of ancient elves from uthenera. The third verse, which will interest you the most, mentions the fire from the Gauntlet. The fourth begins with something similar to the rending of the veil prior to the Maker's coming.
I'm trying out mods again and I got a retexture of the merc coat you wear at the start of the game.
I equiped it on Solas.
Hot pictures. I demand hot pictures.
Sharing a commission I had made of my Ashara/Solas. The artist is siriusdraws but the rebloggable version is from my tumblr because the artist seems to prefer that the commissioner make the original post. Anyway: SOURCE.
Hot pictures. I demand hot pictures.
I have no idea how to upload my own pictures. D:
Parts of Shartan's story are missing, and I bet they're going to be really telling. You know how he advises Sera on Red Jenny activities? And you know how in-game theories go that Shartan wasn't a single man but an idea? If we hold to reason that Solas pulled a Red Jenny with Shartan (to protect himself and the principles of their cause) then it's possible it was one of his other Shartan 'decoys' that fell with the people later on. I'm unsure as to the exact timeline of events between the stories of him betraying the gods and everything else... but the wolf statue theories are definitely interesting.
Also I do wonder if Andraste turned a bit... crazy... in the end. This harks back to my question if she reminded anyone else of a spirit. There's some wonderful drama to be thought up if you regard her tale with that of Maferath and his right hand man, Havard (the one who brought her ashes back to Thedas). Think what you will, Maferath had a lot of sense and was probably the good guy in the end -- and then his life went to hell because of what he had to do.
Also random question: I was reading about the blights and Tevinter: When did the Blights start, when did the whole Tevinter/Andraste thing start? How distant was that from the Magisters and the Black City? Were there darkspawn always, or did they only just start recording Blights once they began killing the Old Gods and having a time of reprieve?
The Blight itself clearly predates the Magisters. We see red lyrium in the Primeval Thaig (which is probably older than Arlathan itself) and there's plenty of theories about the Pantheon (Andruil, mostly) being blighted.
The First Blight (recorded Blight with an archdemon) starts pretty much right after the ritual to send the magisters into the Golden/Black City, a little more than 1000 years before the Dragon Age.
As for Solas=Shartan...I'm certainly open to Shartan building his rebellion in the steps of Fen'Harel (who, up until this point has not made the transition from "noble rebel" to "traitor"). As for Solas himself being Shartan, I'd really like to see the text. My WoT2 hasn't shipped yet Q.Q
Seb's VA is also Paul Atriedes. So, you know, walk without rhythm and all that
I thought Alec Newman was brilliant in Dune and Children of Dune, he's definitely one of my favourite actors (even if I'm not a fan of Sebastian).
I'm in a mood between 'want to write more fics' and this tossing me back into the spiral.
And I have to go run errands before I do any of that, which will hopefully help me narrow down what I might write.
So, I've been gone from this thread for a while, so please forgive me if this has been brought up before, but I was reading the Chant of Light chapter in World of Thedas Volume 2 and it mentions that the Canticle of Shartan looks like it might not only be based on the events of Shartan/the slave rebellion at the time, but it also incorporates earlier lore the elves had about a "rebellion against tyrants led by a trickster-warrior".
Just thought it was interesting.
Also, now I'm wondering what parts exactly are the older stuff? The speech Shartan gives in the canticle to the elves thinking about turning back sounds like something Solas would say, imo, so I could see that actually being from way back when in the days of Arlathan instead of actually from Shartan, himself.
And this continuation/incorporation of Fen'Harel's story into the Canticle of Shartan tells me that he was still loved by the People even in the days of Andraste. Which explains all the wolf statues everywhere they settled down south later on, too. Then there's that codex about how the word "harel" used to mean something more positive 800 years ago in the Dales than the negative definition of "betrayer" that it has nowadays.
Fen'Harel being hated and seen as the root of all ills is a relatively recent development (the last 800 years). I wonder why, exactly. I know that's when the Dales fell and all, but why is that event the straw that broke the camel's back and made everyone hate him?
EDIT: I'll add the canticle text I mean later. Or someone else can. I'm not anywhere near my book at the moment. >_>
I've been planning on rewriting the theory about the change in the meaning of "Harellan" for my tumblr anyway, might as well do it here since it's been brought up. This was a collaboration with Jadestone from December (clearly I think too much about this game).
http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Rebel_God
According to this codex the change in the meaning of "Harellan" didn't take place until the Towers Age, which is significant if you look at the timeline. The Towers Age is directly after the Glory Age, in which the Exalted March of the Dales and the diaspora of the elven people took place. The formation of the modern Dalish took place in the remaining years of the Glory and Towers Ages, where the elves were told to convert to Andrastianism or die. I imagine the Dalish oath "never again shall we submit" originates around the Glory/Towers Age. This is also the time when Divine Renata established the first alienages.
Up until the 2nd Exalted March, Fen'Harel seems to be held in high regard. There are wolf statues all over the Dales, and the Emerald Knights are known to have had wolf companions.
http://dragonage.wik...ight's_Guardian
So why the big change from "noble rebel" to "traitor"? The loss of the elven language would mostly have taken place during the generations of slavery to Tevinter, so the chances of a simple mistranslated word taking root at this particular time seems unlikely to me. Also, "traitor" is a very emotive word that has very little to do with the original meaning of the word. After all, the Dalish consider themselves rebels. It seems odd that they would consider the word "rebel" to have a negative connotation.
Perhaps it seemed that, without their gods, the Dalish were doomed to be destroyed. According to Dalish tales it was the loss of the Pantheon that caused Elvhenan to fall, and the absence of the gods that destroyed the Dales and Halamshiral. The blame for their culture's suffering then falls to Fen'Harel. His motives (freeing the slaves or at least curbing the Pantheon's destructive tendencies) could be swept aside. Whatever his good intentions (and I can't say for sure if they are known, but I assume since harellan was still "noble rebel" they were indeed known) the results of his actions were overwhelmingly negative. In the eyes of the Dalish, Fen'Harel is directly responsible for their suffering and a traitor to his own people.
It gets a bit tin-foily when you add in Keeper Gisharel:
http://dragonage.wik...plattered_Notes
Keeper Gisharel of Clan Ralaferin is well known as the only source of Dalish lore to outsiders. But considering all the codexes on elven lore in game are also written by Gisharel, I wonder if Gisharel is also a source of lore to the Dalish themselves. If so, they could be the source of the new Dalish narrative with Fen'Harel set as an antagonist.
Sharing a commission I had made of my Ashara/Solas. The artist is siriusdraws but the rebloggable version is from my tumblr because the artist seems to prefer that the commissioner make the original post. Anyway: SOURCE.
Ahhh gorgeous. 
I saw this on Tumblr. I love that artist's work.
... now to go back to unpacking.
@Siha: Well now that I realize that we're debating two different topics it has become apparent that I agree with almost all of your points. 
I'm just not sure how much was already there and how much was you rolling high in Coercion.
As for all the World of Thedas II entries here and theories:
RARGHBLARGLE!
Give me a moment to hand out the requested time comparison of Andraste and the Black City, then I will dig into the WoT. 
Also random question: I was reading about the blights and Tevinter: When did the Blights start, when did the whole Tevinter/Andraste thing start? How distant was that from the Magisters and the Black City? Were there darkspawn always, or did they only just start recording Blights once they began killing the Old Gods and having a time of reprieve?
6405: Tevinter Imperium founded.
7205-7397: The First Blight. The darkspawn first appear raiding the outskirts of the dwarven empire around 7205. WIthin fifteen years, only a handful of the great thaigs remain under dwarven control. At this time, Dumat leads the Blight to the surface.
7295: Grey Wardens founded.
Around 7397, Andraste is born in Ferelden.
7409: The Wardens imprison Corypheus beneath the Vimmark mountains.
7413: Andraste marries Maferath.
7414: Andraste preaches of the Maker. Maferath unites the Alamarri clans using this.
7420: The rise of Andraste. The invasion of the Imperium. The Elven Rebellion, led by Shartan(s?).
7429: The Battle of Valerian Fields, where Shartan joins Andraste as a disciple. Maferath plots against Andraste.
7430: The death of Andraste.
7440: The Transfiguration. Archon Hessarian converts to Andrastianism. The Cult of the Maker spreads throughout the South. Hessarian reveals Maferath's treachery, causing the collapse of the south.
7465: Wars among the Alamarri. Andraste's Ashes go missing at this point.
7470: The Chant of Light is collected by her disciples. Numerous regional versions are written.
7597: The White Chantry is created by Emperor Kordillus Drakon of Orlais.
The suspiciously shady date of Andraste's birth coincides with Dumat's death, which is what kick-started the 'Andraste is an Old God baby' theories.
From what I'm seeing of these Codex entries, Andraste is looking like a powerful mage, or Old God Baby mage. Black Andrastianism for the win.
So interesting thing in one of the World of Thedas 2 pages on the Chant of Light. There are a number of people who wrote about visions of what would happen when the Maker was to return and the steps coming up to it. The first verse in the section called Potents of the Maker's Return from Exaltations 1 seems to be about the reawakening of the Titans in the West. The second about Zathrian's werewolf curse moving past generations of men vs. elves to the elves themselves becoming infected PLUS the reawakening of ancient elves from uthenera. The third verse, which will interest you the most, mentions the fire from the Gauntlet. The fourth begins with something similar to the rending of the veil prior to the Maker's coming.
Spoiler
Holy ****. Literally.
I'm probably triple-posting and I don't even care.
Weekes. *waves fist limply*
EDIT: I'm still poring over this. Stanza two: I don't think it's about Zathrian.
It's about the Qunari.
It's about the bestiality and rage that they apparently struggle with. The war with the kossith that led to their separation and the creation of the Qun. The Executors serve powers in Amaranth, we still don't know where the Qunari come from except north/east. I mean, yeah, a lot of it fits Zathrian. But the Dalish were just nomads, and the humans weren't exactly an empire either. And I heard from the east a great city. What stuck out about Koslun's tales of wandering is that it was a highly developed civilization with multiple kingdoms and empires, just like Thedas.
Thank you Caddius!!!!!
-cough-
Has anyone seen an illustrated timeline for the DA universe before? I'm drinking wine and theory crafting and bad ideas of immenseness are possessing me.
I haven't.
Can you illustrate? We have a timeline on the Vir'dirthan wiki in Arlathan years you can use as a reference.
Go for the bad ideas of immenseness. That's how I ended up awake at five in the morning typing about Free Marcher wars of unification.
Well I could try to illustrate, but to save time I'd just use pre-existing resources haha. Like an info graphic. But I'm thinking about laying it all out to help myself and others appreciate and understand the time frames? So send me links if you have them!I haven't.
Can you illustrate?
Go for the bad ideas of immenseness. That's how I ended up awake at five in the morning typing about Free Marcher wars of unification.
*quietly slips these in*
Art break. 
Delicious NSFW Solavellan artwork done for osatokun.
Game of Thrones parody of this scene. Poor Solas.
Earth.
Solas and Sera.
Four colors.
"This isn't real?"
EDIT: ToP Solas.
More under spoiler tag.
@ChuChu: http://forum.bioware...-of-dragon-age/
Other thoughts on the Chant of Light:
The ninth sacred mountain which rests
the mortal dust of Our Lady Ascended:
There were nine elven gods, yes? And judging from the mural in the finale of Inquisition laid bare by the battle, a temple to Mythal once stood at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. Nine mountains for mortal men doomed to die nine gods, with Andraste's ashes being secreted away to one devoted to Mythal. I don't know of any other sacred mountains, not within Andrastianism.
The Seven Gates of the Black City shatter
and darkness cloaked both realms:
Seven gates for seven Magisters? Or rather, seven gates for seven gods?
Also: I have long had a fascination with history's running gag of failed sieges of Minrathous.
THE MAKER BLOWS IT UP.
Oh, okay, okay, the text cuts off before I hear what Andraste says. But in its absence, I'm assuming the Maker starts laying about with his Sword of Fiery Deism Enabling+10 and takes down some Magisters and gives Dorian Pavus a hearty handshake and the right to redecorate all of Thedas. 
So interesting thing in one of the World of Thedas 2 pages on the Chant of Light. There are a number of people who wrote about visions of what would happen when the Maker was to return and the steps coming up to it. The first verse in the section called Potents of the Maker's Return from Exaltations 1 seems to be about the reawakening of the Titans in the West. The second about Zathrian's werewolf curse moving past generations of men vs. elves to the elves themselves becoming infected PLUS the reawakening of ancient elves from uthenera. The third verse, which will interest you the most, mentions the fire from the Gauntlet. The fourth begins with something similar to the rending of the veil prior to the Maker's coming.
Spoiler
Hmm, fascinating stuff. Ok, this definitely seems like the Gauntlet, yet I'm still wondering about it in a more literal sense.
Plus there's more here which piques my interest:
First, nine mountains? Why nine? What are the other eight?
Second, "Our Lady ascended [...] in the Realm of Dreams forever" could be more than merely a metaphor for death; it could actually mean the Fade literally. (I know I keep going on about the Fade.)
Third, "passing through the fire" is something that we literally do in Origins at the end of the Gauntlet. Of course, this being in the cadence of prophecy, we cannot always take things literally... yet that simultaneously means the opposite sometimes. This leads me to more questions than answers really. I'm still unsure about the riddle room in the Gauntlet. Maferath says "A poison of the soul, passion's cruel counterpart; from love she grows till love lies slain. Of what do I speak?" and with the answer "jealousy" he says "Yes, jealousy drove me to betrayal. [...]" etc. What I want to know is: was that Maferath's spirit who just told us that he did indeed betray Andraste out of jealousy? Or is this element of the Gauntlet a creation of disciples after the true events, i.e. he never participated in its creation?
I want to know because that would be data to analyze if this were a true quote from Maferath, whereas if it is merely a specter of what they imagined Maferath was and what lies in his heart, it is meaningless. If this is truth and Maferath actually participated in some magical "recording" to protect the ashes of his betrayed love, then I would want to start thinking about whether he said that to protect the plan and take the fall as it was "ordained," or whether he actually betrayed her.
Anyway. *cough* This isn't my area of expertise, so go easy on the rookie.
Speaking of expertise, no takers on my alchemy theory? *sniff* 
@ChuChu: http://forum.bioware...-of-dragon-age/
Other thoughts on the Chant of Light:
The ninth sacred mountain which rests
the mortal dust of Our Lady Ascended:
There were nine elven gods, yes? And judging from the mural in the finale of Inquisition laid bare by the battle, a temple to Mythal once stood at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. Nine mountains for
mortal men doomed to dienine gods, with Andraste's ashes being secreted away to one devoted to Mythal. I don't know of any other sacred mountains, not within Andrastianism.
The Seven Gates of the Black City shatter
and darkness cloaked both realms:
Seven gates for seven Magisters? Or rather, seven gates for seven gods?
Also: I have long had a fascination with history's running gag of failed sieges of Minrathous.
THE MAKER BLOWS IT UP.
Oh, okay, okay, the text cuts off before I hear what Andraste says. But in its absence, I'm assuming the Maker starts laying about with his Sword of Fiery Deism Enabling+10 and takes down some Magisters and gives Dorian Pavus a hearty handshake and the right to redecorate all of Thedas.
Yeah, so this totally answers my question. I was just waiting for a post like this.
One mountain to rule them all.
This brings me to another speculation point: what about the ruins in the Dalish origin? With elven gods in a human building and a tunnel leading to the dwarven kingdom? Or some such? That could be a thing of Arlathan, though I highly doubt it considering the history up till that point, but if that predates all of this... i.e. perhaps primeval thaig time...?
All wild speculation, of course, just tossing it in. 
The spirits turn into Ash Wraiths if combat is initiated. Disciples are mentioned as having sacrificed themselves in the Temple to become Ash Wraiths and guard the Temple. Thing is, the Temple was founded thirty years after Andraste died and her followers were scattered. It's possible that the spirits of the dead followers were drawn to the combination of Andraste's Ashes and the one mountain singularity of lyrium weirdness going on, but I think it's more likely that they're Cultists of Andraste playing a role. Maybe. Crap. I think the Guardian is either actually the preserved man, or a spirit of faith imitating him out of respect. I always thought he was Harvard until I got my head out of my ass and realized you talk to 'Harvard' as part of the riddle game.
I'll bet you anything that the volcano that probably took out Barindur was Elgar'nan's sacred mountain.
"GET. OFF. MY. LAWN. *BOOM!*" 
I can totally buy Andraste deliberately martyring herself as a way of not losing the empire they've already built, making their religion solid, and screwing over Tevinter. (Most of the Empire actually rebelled when Hessarian died and they thought he'd drag them back to paganism, Julian the Apostate style. And that's how the Imperium ended up in its current state.) Dividing up the empire among his heirs before he died and some kind of gavelkind succession law is very interesting indeed. Probably wanted to see if they could handle it, prevent a massive succession war when he died, and probably stressful to run an empire that large.
Sorry, but the alchemy stuff isn't my area of expertise, and I don't trust y'all to go easy on the rookie.
Retour en haut
