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[Ajna]

I'm hellspiralling over this entry from WoT2. Talking about Zathrian, but it hits home especially hard with Solas, or any of the ancient elvhen:

I did the same thiiiiiiing! That's probably why I don"t remember much of yesterday afternoon...

[madrar]

I'd be willing to bet that the first Neromenian Dreamers that were contacted by the Old Gods/Forgotten Ones exhibited similar symptoms. Still developing theories, but it looks likely that A) Something powerful was sending Andraste visions She had magical potential and C) Andraste managed to spin all of this into her being a prophet of the Maker of Thedas, much like the Inquisitor can potentially spin banishing the demons at Adamant as being the blessing of Andraste.

 

****.  Caddius, you just blew my mind.

 

That's the weird thing about Andraste, right?   She has dreams, yes, but she's also gets visions and hears voices while she's very much awake- so this isn't 100% Dirthamen/Falon'Din messing around in the Fade.  I think the writers might be trying to suggest that this could be Mythal, speaking to her directly.   Or at least suggesting that the idea is a plausible interpretation of what's going on.

 

Let me back up for a second.

 

By chance or design, the gods of the Elvhen Pantheon seem to emerge in an order that mirrors the Triune Brain.  The "reptilian complex"- a fitting reference for literal draconic beings- is the earliest to appear.  It governs the absolute basics for survival, and works in terms of diametric absolutes.  No room for shades grey in this brain.  Light/Dark, Friend/Foe, Fight/Flight, etc.  This is Elgar'nan, or more likely, his nameless Order predecessor.

 

Mythal is the emergence of the midbrain.  Her domain, as we know both in-game and through neuroscience, is memory and emotion.  Mythal speaking to Andraste through her temporal lobe is... theoretically totally possible as an in-game concept and twisted mirror of real-world science.   The how and why remain to be seen, but it's a crazy interesting thought.

 

Finally, Dirthamen and Falon'Din offer compelling parallels for the right and left lobes of the forebrain, and mark the transition to creatures of sentience and free will.  I could write a whole flipping thesis just pointing out the relevant characteristics and how (Triple Threat warning) mapping the transition to Solas suggests some potentially worrying things about the state of his integration and effects of relegating most of his right neocortex to the fade (subconscious), but that's... way off-topic.

[Gwyvian]

*snip*
The Kossith landed around the time the Magisters stepped foot in the Golden City, yeah... -410 Ancient... about 15 years earlier. So near the First Blight! This was probably when the first Ogre Darkspawn/Kossith Broodmothers appeared. Even though I don't have everything noted (obviously), and now you've brought something up that makes me go trace my finger along the dates... I think referencing events is so much handier now! Unless I'm missing something, the next time the Kossith show up they've already converted to the Qun and it's the Storm Age. But I don't think they would have changed too much physically, more likely Brood mothers just have really nasty children.

Oh. And now that I think about it... I don't have anything about the Fex in that time table! Fex are much too much mystery.

Edit: added the Kossith's pre-blight visit in!

 

A little cross-game theory-tinkering: the whole broodmother process sounds an awful lot like the creation of Reaper troops to me; husks, banshees, marauders... I don't know where to go beyond that right now because I'm distracted, but I'm wondering if there are more parallels. Oh, I know, the process is different and there are other discrepancies, but still.

 

And now, after reading TME, Gaspard will die in every game/world state I have. He cannot be trusted at all, craves war, and 'honor' is only when it suits him, not when threatening people's lives or instigating murder of elves in order to spring an ambush just for the sake of his own ambition.

 

I'm a little bit that way about Celene. There's only so far that I can go with her politics and "it's all the Game" and all that; if she at least did something significant for the elves I'd have more sympathy, but it seems like it was always about keeping power, the end. She is willing to sacrifice far too much, it outweighs every small good thing she does to better the lives of her subjects. Gaspard I have trouble with for his blatant disregard for certain classes, elves prominent on that list, but at least he's perfectly honest about his stance, which makes him somewhat easy to manipulate. Briala... I had a lot of distaste for her in general before I read TME and I grew to respect her character more after I finished, but I still think she is far from absolved for her own approach to this whole matter. I like her solutions, however, which is more than I can say for either Celene or Gaspard, albeit I think that she, too, is willing to sacrifice too much (there is a point until I agree with what she does, and then there is a point where she is playing the humans' Game rather than upending the table, binding herself without even realizing it).

 

In general, though, I like TME and this entire episode in DAI exactly because I really got the sense that none of them are spotless and the only question remaining is what mix of power you want to instill. I've pretty much tried them all by now, each of my Inquisitors have their own favorite choice depending on who they are and what they want to achieve. So far I'm actually most satisfied with Briala/Gaspard, because each has something the other one lacks: Briala has the political acumen to steer Orlais in the right direction, while Gaspard has the ability to lead and be a force to be reckoned with. Orlais, I think, needs a healthy dose of both and at least this way I'm pretty sure that things will actually happen, as opposed to the future with Celene alone. (Let's not even go to Gaspard alone *shudder* I'm biased towards Ferelden!)

 

Seconding a lot of what Caddius posted, but with some additional nutbag theory notes:

 

Blue lyrium = blood of the Earth, Mythal's previous incarnation- an ancient draconic entity whose body (possibly corpse) forms the actual planet, oroboros-style. The Stone is her unborn child, the dwarves her maternal antibodies / immune system writ large, devoted to protecting the Stone: fighting off dengue, cancerous red lyrium and blight.  Blue lyrium sings the original Song of Creation.  

 

Red lyrium = blood of the Sun, an ancient draconic entity whose (possibly OGS-empty) body is currently trapped in the Void.  (Very literally.  Outer space.  The sky.  Heaven.)  Currently sings a different song, the Sundered Song.  Whether this Sundering was an innate and inescapable result of his creation or something that Elgar'nan tinkered with is still uncertain.  

 

Possibility #1:  The Song's "sundering" refers to the creation of the Sun.  Ignoring the likelihood of a pre-Elgar'nan entity of Order, if we imagine the world to have been the primordial creation of Elgar'nan and Earth (one will, one possibility) then the original state of the universe would have been utterly deterministic - a world of perfect Order, directed entirely by one Will. (Earth-Mythal's domain may be possibility, but possibility alone does not make the universe indeterministic.  In a completely Newtonian universe, flipping a coin is just the illusion of chance: if all factors are accounted for- the coin's weight, the air's density, the force applied, etc- the outcome would obviously be predetermined.   This fits the Andrastean Chant's description of the Maker's first creation, the world of spirits before the veil was raised.  

 

By introducing a second source of Will, by creating a triad- each possibility now has not one, but two possible outcomes.  Suddenly the isotope in Schrodinger's box can be both decayed, and not.  It inserts chaos theory, indeterminism, an infinitely branching (again, 'sundered') multiverse, and perhaps most importantly (the game suggests) neurological choice and individual free will.

 

An interesting possibility from a scientific standpoint, but a bit thematically problematic.

 

Possibility #2:  The "Sundered Song" of red lyrium is the result of Order attempting to reverse the effect of the Sun's creation by overwriting reality with a far stronger, "louder" song, in effect bringing the universe back under the control of a single Will.  The Sun's original blood was tinkered with, ramped in frequency and volume until it was essentially cancerous: its affect on choice and the triad like dropping a 10 ton sandbag on a balanced postal scale.

 

In some ways, this option feels like a better fit-  Elgar'nan's contribution to creation being the "spark of life", red lyrium's effect as a literal cancer of the Earth seems more thematically appropriate: it is life gone horribly awry, becoming an overwhelming force.   This perspective also seems to jive better with the way Solas regards blight (and by extension, red lyrium) as being fundamentally alien and unnatural. 

 

Welcome back, by the way! 

 

Oh, I like these. Even if the first is thematically problematic, it has a kind of elegant design of balance that makes sense in a way.

 

Taking this into consideration, my mind conjures (yet again) a Wheel of Time ref.: the Dark One, sealed away by the Creator at the moment of creation. Yet as the Wheel turns, the Bore is made by Aes Sedai seeking a new source of power that both men and women can use. I.e. a point where the natural balance of the world is unified, logically one of two points where this is true (a place of ultimate matter vs. the void). The Wheel keeps turning, the Dark One's prison is weakening, mankind fights against Him and eventually we come back to the perfect prison, until a new age where all of this is forgotten and people once more seek a new power.

 

My point with all of this is that the basis of all such mythology always begins with elements of nature, both celestial and earthly. In WoT the way it looks is there is the world made by the Creator and the Pattern spun by the Wheel, and beyond that is a Nothingness where the Dark One lurks. In DA we see a more classical approach: an Earth Mother, a Sky Father and their subsequent children. There is also usually a deity such as Time to consider, and/or Thought, which could be an outside force that spawns even Earth and Sky, that would solve the missing piece issue. Why I brought of WoT here, though, is the concept of nothing versus something; power drawn from a negative energy. This is the matter/anti-matter, gravity/anti-gravity mix, i.e. it is always in a balance of duality.

 

From the moment we have a mythology separating male and female we have a duality form that requires there be a natural opposite to everything, i.e. in this light, I'm thinking that red lyrium and all it represents logically cannot be wholly unnatural; that does not change the fact that it is in constant conflict with what we consider as "natural" and pure, i.e. blue lyrium in this instance. You cannot light a candle without casting a shadow.

 

The other reason I illustrate with WoT is the concept of a cycle. Elgar'nan's story is that of taking the Sun from the sky and (I'm assuming) creating the night sky, yet going on a pagan religious basis, this has to be a battle that is either constantly repeated, or it is an on-going struggle, i.e. the sun rises and sets, night replaces day which is then replaced by night. This would be a basic creation myth for the day/night cycles and eventually seasons for the elves.

 

Now, in our mythology, these things are naturally translated to everyday existence in that the battle of the gods is translated into the fundamentals of the human psyche, with each emotional trait represented by a gross, godly representation that we bridge with demi-gods and heroes in order to reach a point in development where we reach inner perfection, i.e. the gods are the extreme representation of everything humanly possible. This is all a representation of the interconnectedness of the world and us, of course, as we see our own existence mirrored in the universe and vice versa.

 

The one thing that is tantalizing about DA mythology in particular, however, is that their gods are supposedly real. I mean, real as in (going on Solas' lightly expressed opinion) they were/are beings, like elves, who rose to godhood in a sense. To a degree I can consume that readily enough with the theory that some beings would logically do such great things that they are elevated to at least the level of a demi-god, if not really further, yet DA seems to want to have it both ways: we have creation mythology and standard mythology, and we have actual gods who are not really gods.

 

That makes me very, very suspicious. Either the gods are charlatans taking over the godly thrones of actual gods who never "walked" among mortals (immortals, actually), or their history reaches back to a point where their creation mythology is completely false; i.e they lived on a world and designed themselves to be gods of this or that. This one makes no sense to me, however, because evolution being what it is, it is only natural to deify nature - the sky, the land, the rivers and oceans, flora and fauna, etc.

 

That leads me to think that there must actually have been a kind of parallel mythology that eventually melded into one. I.e. a shamanistic religion evolving into a pantheon which retrospectively took over the categories previously assigned to the spirits of things - which minds me of the Fade, of course.

 

I would also like to toss in the Silmarillion: the history of LotR elves really resonates with what's going on in DA (and WoT is basically like an expanded version of the Tolkien-esque fantasy). I think this would be a goldmine to truly examine DA's confusing mythology, there's a lot to extrapolate. I shan't do it now, though, because I'm writing a wall of text. Again.  And I always end up tormenting everyone with my walls of text. 

 

Nooo, come back!

 

There's a lot to like about humours / classical alchemical elements and how they correspond to the known races:

 

Humor         Domain    Humour characteristics                                     DA God                  DA Race

 

Phlegm         Water      calm, thoughtful, patient, peaceful                         Mythal                     Elves

Yellow Bile    Fire         ambitious, leader-like, restless, easily angered     Sun/False Sun        Qunari / Kossith / Humanity

Black Bile      Earth       despondent, quiet, analytical, serious                   Earth/Stone             Dwarves

Blood             Air          courageous, hopeful, playful, carefree                  True Sun/Solas?      Idealized Humanity?

 

The parallels are pretty suggestive... but suggestive of exactly what, I have no idea.   ^w^

 

I'm here, I'm here! 

 

This is so nice. Yes, I also like the idea of having two sides of humanity, as they seem to have the widest spectrum, as is usually true of fantasies. Humans are usually adaptable and the most varied of all species and they are the most likely to swing wildly between good and evil, often paradoxically in the very same person. I would say that all of this is suggestive of the fundamental archetypes of DA; we can extrapolate a lot from this, just looking at how and why the various sociological and theological differences flow in the directions they do, plus as I expanded on in previous posts, the relationship of the elements can be translated to the relationships we see between the races.

 

I truly wonder whether they have a few scholars up their sleeves at Bioware who plot all these motifs out, or if it's all just stream-of-consciousness mythopoesis; either way, it's truly fun to analyze it to bits and pieces. 

 

More on this later; really, I ought to start replying in one by one posts.....

[Caddius]

My dear Gywvian, if you start responding to posts one by one, you'll find the focus of it will make them just as long, and we'll end up with ten times as much of your posts.

Do it.

The mix-up of the gods is very, very interesting. Solas himself seems to find the idea of a Maker figure intriguing. So you've got a physical god speculating about an immaterial god.   What I'm most fascinated by is how the Old Gods fit into it all. I'd like for them to be actual gods of some kind rather than unusually powerful High Dragons. Judging by Urthemiel's excellent diction in The Darkspawn Chronicles, I'm assuming they're well-educated for dragons. 

I'm curious if Elgar'nan and Mythal differed from the others in any way. For example, if Solas died ( ) because I don't know, a player was dumb and forgot to switch him to his freshly crafted Uber Hobo Robe of Excellence and left him in his old gear with no fire resistance as you go up against the Fereldan Frostback   , would he turn into a wisp, Mythal style? Or would he flat-out die? Would it depend on how much power he had in him?

According to the dev notes and some of the visual cues in the Epilogue, Flemeth willingly gives over most of her power to Solas, but her divinity to Morrigan. What exactly is her divinity? Just the spark of Mythal's personality? The memories? 

[ChuChu]

****.  Caddius, you just blew my mind.

 

That's the weird thing about Andraste, right?   She has dreams, yes, but she's also gets visions and hears voices while she's very much awake- so this isn't 100% Dirthamen/Falon'Din messing around in the Fade.  I think the writers might be trying to suggest that this could be Mythal, speaking to her directly.   Or at least suggesting that the idea is a plausible interpretation of what's going on.

-snip-

Feel free to disregard my theory, but I like to surmise that what affects Andraste is something we (as the observer) aren't quite familiar with yet, but I believe it is indeed related to the Elven Pantheon, Old Gods or Forgotten Ones somehow. I'm really intrigued by the mention of her sister in WoTII, though. I propose this: what if Helliserre was the daughter of a witch? We know her mother was an unnamed advisor to Elderath on the subject of alchemy, and her mother's fate is unknown after her birth. Whether or not this witch was a vessel of Mythal cannot be assumed. Now, the text says this:

 

"Andraste, still a youth, awakened, unquiet, to a storm. She glimpsed her sibling following lights in to a wood. Our lady pursued, and an event of some violence occurred, followed by fires throughout the forest. Andraste was found pale and uncertain of what she had seen. The remains of Halliserre were lying in a burned clearing, her body having suffered wounds beyond weapons. Andraste was scarred in many ways by this event. The storm's cold left her with a sickness in the lungs that persisted for years, and despite her eventual strength, it would be a decade before she recovered enough to bear children. As a young woman, she would become still for long moments, unable to be moved or roused. After, she would report voices, as though from a lost memory, and talk of strange auras or the sounds of bells. It was some years later when she began to recall the events of Halliserre's death as a matter of heresy, suggesting the alchemist consort whispered of the Old Gods. Our lady would frame her early experiences with her rising sense of destiny, becoming her own first historian." And this, by the way, was all told by Kordillus Drakon.

 

We also know that while Andraste's birth year is said to be the year Dumat died, it is held in question. Was Helliserre the eldest, was she born during that time or before? Would she had been trained in the ways of her mother as well, and there was a ritual of sorts taking place that Andraste stumbled in to? Was Andraste used in the ritual herself? If something was summoned -- did it enter in to Andraste? Or, as an alchemist, had Helliserre's mother been meddling with Andraste since before she was born... and this was just step two? Or had Andraste lied, and it was she who wandered in to the woods to do something curious, and her sister paid the price for it?

Imagine now that Shartan followed Maferath more than he followed for Andraste's sake. He sought the freedom of the elves, after all, not a new deity or cult. In fact, if Shartan is Solas is Fen'Harel, we know that they have a great dislike for the Herald if they claim to be sent from a higher power. What if Maferath was counselled to be cautious of his wife's ambitions? By someone who could recognize the signs of something he'd seen before?** And, completely reaching here now, but when Hessarrion slew her by his own hand at the pyre, did that same thing enter in to him? This is not assuming Andraste was either good, or bad. In Dragon Age rarely is someone concretely one or the other, anyway.

 

As ever, I have no answers. Merely more questions.
 

edit: added a bit about Solas, because, come on. Look around you.

** NOTE:  Shartan may have counselled Maferath in this way regardless, because he would have seen Andraste's singular passion costing them everything. They were being flanked and too far North, with Imperium armies reclaiming the lands at their backs. The demise of all they'd worked for loomed on the horizon. He would not risk that and he would not risk his people.

[Siha]

I am out one night and the thread picks up and goes back to theory crafting? Seriously guys, I come to believe you do this on purpose.
 
Oh, btw, I had a whiskey named Maker's Mark. It was very funny in my head. I was the only person who laughed though.
 

*Triple-Threat Theory warning - if that's not your thing, look awaaaay*
 
I think the reasoning behind the Egyptian angle will be clearer when we explore Par Vallon, pseudo-Northern Africa / Egypt as the flipped map of Thedas applies to our own Earth.  <snip>

 
It's good to see you back, finally, in this thread.
I do see how BW can include all the Egyptian references, no doubt about it. Only do I think it does not fit well considering the previously shown motifs.
Alright, the elven pantheon has only been introduced to us represented by Flemythal so far. Maybe she changed her style, being on her own etc. Maybe we will be surprised to find that the other gods look Egyptian. But I do not believe that. Because neither Abelas and the Temples, nor the Elven ruins incorporate African elements (apart from the wall paintings and we don't know enough about those, also they don't look Egyptian in particular).
If the Pantheon itself is influenced by Par Vollen aesthetics, I assume we might be back at the notion of "ghost gods", meaning that they are spirits not bound to a physical representation, thus able to appear as anything anywhere. Because how else could the Pantheon be in all parts/cultures of Thedas?
 

The templar feels are strong in me.  I think implementation in the games has been poor for the templars. They were - too often - made out to be bad guys. You had to do some digging in the codex entries

 
I am a Templar supporter too. Not because I were anti-mage. Rather because I think the only way to improve the situation for mages is to adjust the way Templars handle them. You cannot control magic, hence you must find better ways to get along with it and that's where the Templars are important. Uh... I am not sure now but I think I voiced my reasoning some time before, though maybe it was in PM, I forgot.
 
Anyway, I sided with the mages in DAO. Because a killing spree in the Circle was no good. I made a moral choice there, not a political one, or even picked an orientation.
I think it's actually good that you need to dig a bit to understand the Templars. The notion of a good core in a corrupted shell, this is so realistic. I will refrain from real-world examples now but I do have some in mind. I am intrigued by finding this out, by actually having to put in effort to see it as opposed to it being presented readily. Trying to shape the Templars has become a deliberate choice for me, one where I feel that I as an individual matter because I've made up my mind. 
 
I do not like, e.g., that I so strongly feel that I am supposed to dislike the Qun. I hardly know anything about it, and I do get the supportive character once in a while, but overall BW pushes us to reject it. Siha does not like to be pushed. She likes to inquire and research and decide on her own. The Celene/Gaspard choice is similar, but has gotten too little (short) spotlight. The mag/Templar issue however gives me new aspects in every new game and I have absolutely no issues with the Templar choice being the underdogs. It feels more realistic, and maybe even more valuable for me therefore.
 

Murdering everyone that opposes you and bullying everyone that might is much more my thing. Much more doable too.     

 
Ehh... I actually also colored my murder ballad version of the last picture. Or let's call it Sin City? Anyway, I don't dare post it here because I assume most people wouldn't appreciate it, but you actually might.
 
I have two versions and couldn't decide, so
Murder Ballads: Sin City (Solavellan)   white version -- black version
 

This is a bit off topic, but ...
I'm cosplaying as Lavellan tomorrow :X 
Hopefully someone will recognize an Inquisitor or I'll cry

 
Siha demands photographic evidence! O_O
 

Feel free to disregard my theory,
<snip>
Imagine now that Shartan followed Maferath more than he followed for Andraste's sake. What if Maferath was councelled to be cautious of his wife's ambitions? By someone who could recognize the signs of something he'd seen before? And, completely reaching here now, but when Hessarrion slew her by his own hand at the pyre, did that same thing enter in to him? This is not assuming Andraste was either good, or bad. In Dragon Age rarely is someone concretely one or the other, anyway.

Seconded. DA always tries to show us how things aren't what they seem. At all. 

I have a negative impression of Andraste. I got it in Awakening, and built on top of it, I remember that. But I don't know for sure why. And we do have enough real-life examples of good-intentions-turned-bad. Starting out with a good idea and being corrupted in the process of realizing it, ending up building an oppressive regime that's basically the same as before just in another shade of green. If we only step back from seeing Andraste as the 1:1 representation of Jesus and compare her to famous revolutionists instead, things look mighty different.

[Caddius]

 

 
I have two versions and couldn't decide, so
Murder Ballads: Sin City (Solavellan)   white version -- black version
 

 

My only criticism of the Murder Ballads is that the lovely shading (Look I can use art-related words!  I think.  ) kind of makes the writing to see, but I'm a lot more interested in the pictures, anyway.  Yet another person I can add to the list of 'People whose artistic skills I would like to steal'.

Agreed with everyone on the Templars finally getting fair representation. (Ser Barris.  ) Makes it a wonderfully murky decision instead of an incredulous, "Um, mages? Mages all the way." The interesting thing about the Mage Rebellion is that, while the current Circle system wasn't sustainable, the mages were just not equipped to have a successful revolution and handle themselves outside of the Circle. 

I do appreciate that Corypheus gave us an opportunity to wipe out the nasty, Karas like Templars, leaving behind mostly the great ones, men like (ex) Cullen and Barris and the wonderful late Sir Otto the Blind.

A lot of good Templars were presumably killed because they got dosed with red lyrium, which is bothersome. 

What's interesting to speculate about is that it's possible that the majority of the South's trained mages were wiped out. Lost to the Venatori, killed in the Venatori, hunted by Templars, scattered to the edges of Thedas, or Vivienne's cadre of Imperial loyalist mages. And it sounds like a lot of the acadamia has been scattered as well. I guess the downsized Templar Order can handle the downsized mage population, until the kids start hitting that time of life.

I'm doing my Rogue Trevelyan Josephinemancer Templar playthrough at the moment. So I'm waxing a little enthusiastic about the Templars. Get me on a day after The Last Straw and I'll be singing a different tune. 

Andraste's always reminded me more of Joan of Arc and Muhammad, which is an interesting combination. To a certain point, Andrastianism was spread by the sword and Maferath's military successes, which put the Old Gods' power and Tevinter's in a bad light. She inspired armies, but didn't lead them per se. She died in fire. Her Holy Book is poetic and sung by her priests. Jesus of Nazareth had a smaller movement of apostles that gradually started spreading it through the Eastern Mediterranean, before it became the state religion of the Roman Empire, which is how it became popular. I don't see much of Jesus in her at all. Revolutionaries do fit her better. Andrastianism was an explosion out of Ferelden that cooled down into a century of steady growth. And now we're getting hints that she was quite a bit more dangerous and unpredictable than we've been led to believe.  There's always another secret.

[Gwyvian]

My dear Gywvian, if you start responding to posts one by one, you'll find the focus of it will make them just as long, and we'll end up with ten times as much of your posts.

Do it.

The mix-up of the gods is very, very interesting. Solas himself seems to find the idea of a Maker figure intriguing. So you've got a physical god speculating about an immaterial god.   What I'm most fascinated by is how the Old Gods fit into it all. I'd like for them to be actual gods of some kind rather than unusually powerful High Dragons. Judging by Urthemiel's excellent diction in The Darkspawn Chronicles, I'm assuming they're well-educated for dragons. 

I'm curious if Elgar'nan and Mythal differed from the others in any way. For example, if Solas died ( ) because I don't know, a player was dumb and forgot to switch him to his freshly crafted Uber Hobo Robe of Excellence and left him in his old gear with no fire resistance as you go up against the Fereldan Frostback   , would he turn into a wisp, Mythal style? Or would he flat-out die? Would it depend on how much power he had in him?

According to the dev notes and some of the visual cues in the Epilogue, Flemeth willingly gives over most of her power to Solas, but her divinity to Morrigan. What exactly is her divinity? Just the spark of Mythal's personality? The memories? 

 

You're probably right. I'm terrible at being succinct.

 

Alright, I'll do it. 

 

This is an intriguing point - that divinity and power are actually distinct. I would surmise that Mythal's being (yes, memories, personality) would be linked to her divinity more, because it is her essence in particular that was ostensibly marked as such a being. We more or less know that power is not really necessary for this status, e.g. Fen'Harel not having the power he needs to do whatever it is that he's trying to do, yet he is undoubtedly Fen'Harel. I would imagine that Solas would not die as such, although he might end up as a fragment of himself. As I understand it, Mythal lost a great deal of her original essence (and here I mean her divine self, not her power) when she was slain, possibly even more so during her "transferences" from body to body, adding bits of her hosts to fill in the gaps, but maybe losing something as well. I would imagine that Fen'Harel + whatever remains of Solas would need to find a new host.

 

Do they differ for another reason, though? Could it be that the original pantheon was expanded, accepting new members, yet ones who did not necessarily have all the capabilities/powers that the original deities did?

 

Speaking of wisps: if any of the gods died in physical form, I would surmise they appear in the Fade somehow, in limbo as it were, but is that true for all beings or only special ones?

 

The Old Gods. Hm. Well, I'm not entirely convinced that they aren't gods we already know under different names; perhaps I would even venture to say that they might be the corrupted versions of elven gods, and/or the Forgotten Ones. I'm pretty sure they are more than just dragons; I mean, dragons are crafty, they are vastly powerful beings, but I could not imagine them being associated with being deities unless they had powers and bestowed boons and punishments alike that go beyond even the capabilities of dragons.

 

Thing is, the Old Gods actually make more sense to me than the elven gods do. It's a typical pantheon in a way, though I am highly suspicious about the whole Original Sin part of it. Point being, it is a hybrid mythology that supplants an existing mythology, which is like rewriting some details but keeping an overall framework. I have a thought that perhaps humans also had their version of the elven pantheon that evolved into praying to the Old Gods.

 

Back to elven gods. Another thing I find highly suspicious is that the Forgotten Ones are kind of shunted aside in a way. I mean, going on our own mythology, no matter that a god represents negative aspects of humanity, there is sacrifice and respect given to them to appease them, yet they also have their "positive" aspects that may be called upon. A curse on my enemy kind of thing. Yet, with the elven pantheon, we have the Creators (the "good guys") and a shady bunch of deities that only the truly wicked pray to... that makes no sense to me.

 

True, if we take into consideration that they aren't actually gods, then it makes slightly more sense in that they are a pseudo-pantheon like the Old Gods are. However. I'm not inclined to fully believe Solas on this one. From his perspective, these gods are merely very powerful beings who exist somewhere in the Fade; yet by definition, what else should a god be? Perhaps he merely means that they did not create Thedas and everything in it, yet... there is a suspicious amount of classical association going on that fits the basic patterns of a pagan religion: earth, sky, fire, learning, secrets, love, etc. So... did these incredibly powerful "just average" beings pick a category for themselves?

 

OR!! THEY ARE ALIENS WITH SUPERIOR INTELLIGENCE.

 

There. I solved it. 

[Siha]

My only criticism of the Murder Ballads is that the lovely shading (Look I can use art-related words!  I think.  ) kind of makes the writing to see, but I'm a lot more interested in the pictures, anyway.  Yet another person I can add to the list of 'People whose artistic skills I would like to steal'.

<snip>

I do appreciate that Corypheus gave us an opportunity to wipe out ....

<snip>

What's interesting to speculate about is that it's possible that the majority of the South's trained mages were wiped out. 

<snip>

Andraste's always reminded me more of Joan of Arc and Muhammad, which is an interesting combination. To a certain point, Andrastianism was spread by the sword and Maferath's military successes, which put the Old Gods' power and Tevinter's in a bad light. She inspired armies, but didn't lead them per se. She died in fire.

<snip>

I don't see much of Jesus in her at all. Revolutionaries do fit her better. 

 

Aww, thank you.   I am new to this, this is just the second picture I tried. And I still did that one with my laptop's trackpad. But I bought a (cheap) drawing tablet yesterday, I'm excited to try it out today.

Somebody I showed the pic also said that about the text. I actually considered to remove it completely... what do you think?

 

I never thought about these two aspects you mentioned, this DAI being a reboot. It wiped out the old generation of Templars and mages. Corrupted them beyond recovery or killed them off right away. DA2 destroyed the Circles, DAI destroyed the communities. This is an excellent point. Wherever BW wants to go in the future, they can reshape the conflict allover. It's almost sad that they abandoned the society they showed us in DAO so quickly, but considering the long intervals of the games it surely is a necessity.

 

I like the Jean d'Arc comparison. I had others in mind, men, but she also has the early death. Only thing she lacks is that her actions did not directly lead to a new political system that is directly based on her person. However, I do see a few aspects of Jesus, which are deliberately introduced, mainly the religious aspect, the motif of betrayal by the one person closest to you, the idea of followers (Shatan etc.) and so on. I am sure BW kept close to the image of Jesus, but mingled it with aspects from the great revolutions and their aftermaths, mainly the French, Russian, and Cuban (says Siha, know-it-all and all-round mastermind).

[CapricornSun]

Art break. (Sorry for interrupting.) 

 

First off, more of deedylovescake's cute porn. 

 

Beautiful tarot card by paperwick.

Spoiler

http://paperwick.tum...itor-the-hermit

 

 

Pretty awesome Solas artwork. Plus bonus adorable dread puppy! 

Spoiler

http://xenoworks.tum...nd-now-have-the

 

 

 

Best charity event ever.

Spoiler

http://yukaryote.tum...t-does-that-all

 

 

“What did that stray cat ever do to you?” 
“It is a cat. It is inherently evil. Inquisitor, did you know-” 
“Not this **** again.” 
“DID YOU KNOW CATS WERE PARTIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FALL OF ELVHENAN??”  

Spoiler

http://dipshitdreadw...do-to-you-it-is

 

[myahele]

I wonder if the Old God's have been awake the entire time they were imprisoned? Desperately trying to get out for thousands of years?

[Caddius]

I wonder if the Old God's have been awake the entire time they were imprisoned? Desperately trying to get out for thousands of years?

The Chant says something like 'awakened in pain and horror, 

the first blight'

When describing Dumat's corruption. While not exactly a solid source, the image is evocative enough, and hibernation/uthenera/stasis would make sense for those kinds of beings imprisoned. They seem to have contacted the Neromenians/Tevinter at some point in the Fade, which would point to hibernation. But then they went silent. *shrug*

For the Old Gods, I'm guessing that it's like a very long, confusing (but enjoyable) jumble of dream-images that suddenly turns into a nightmare that ends with final death at the hands of mortals riding griffins.

[myahele]

The Chant says something like 'awakened in pain and horror, 

the first blight'

When describing Dumat's corruption. While not exactly a solid source, the image is evocative enough, and hibernation/uthenera/stasis would make sense for those kinds of beings imprisoned. They seem to have contacted the Neromenians/Tevinter at some point in the Fade, which would point to hibernation. But then they went silent. *shrug*

For the Old Gods, I'm guessing that it's like a very long, confusing (but enjoyable) jumble of dream-images that suddenly turns into a nightmare that ends with final death at the hands of mortals riding griffins.

 

I kinda hope so.

 

The mosaic of The Archdemon looks like an Archdemon (Dumat?) being pierced by 3 (lyrium?) spikes on the right-hand side ... that's probably not comfortable.

 

Then there's this area in the Western Approach which is the location of an Old God. Solas says something like "They shouldn't be tempering with something that should not be tampered with" Additionally, the rumbles underneath +you can feintly hear what sounds like a dragon's roar only here.

[Caddius]

Aww, thank you.   I am new to this, this is just the second picture I tried. And I still did that one with my laptop's trackpad. But I bought a (cheap) drawing tablet yesterday, I'm excited to try it out today.

Somebody I showed the pic also said that about the text. I actually considered to remove it completely... what do you think?

 

I never thought about these two aspects you mentioned, this DAI being a reboot. It wiped out the old generation of Templars and mages. Corrupted them beyond recovery or killed them off right away. DA2 destroyed the Circles, DAI destroyed the communities. This is an excellent point. Wherever BW wants to go in the future, they can reshape the conflict allover. It's almost sad that they abandoned the society they showed us in DAO so quickly, but considering the long intervals of the games it surely is a necessity.

 

I like the Jean d'Arc comparison. I had others in mind, men, but she also has the early death. Only thing she lacks is that her actions did not directly lead to a new political system that is directly based on her person. However, I do see a few aspects of Jesus, which are deliberately introduced, mainly the religious aspect, the motif of betrayal by the one person closest to you, the idea of followers (Shatan etc.) and so on. I am sure BW kept close to the image of Jesus, but mingled it with aspects from the great revolutions and their aftermaths, mainly the French, Russian, and Cuban (says Siha, know-it-all and all-round mastermind).

I'd say remove the text. The picture hits hard enough to go without it.

The Betrayal and theories about how Maferath/Judas was meant to betray in order to spread the religion, along with the whole Holy Grail and wild theories about children all fit in with Jesus. Silly me. 

And yeah, ole' Joan didn't exactly succeed in creating a new society. But she certainly succeeded in making the Brits looks like asses.  And isn't that how worthiness is measured?

The process of Maferath dividing the land between his sons reminds me of Frankish Salian law, and how that continually screwed them over and led to the squabbling kingdoms of Western Europe. Then you get a society connected largely through the Chantry/Church, with church and state heavily intertwined. Sort of like if South Thedas was the Holy Roman Empire, and the Pope and the Emperor were buds, and the Byzantines were fighting giant ox-men with mages who shoot Greek fire instead of flamethrowers and this is sentence is getting away from me.  I think I was just trying talk about how Andraste was like Jesus, Muhammed, and Charlemagne's hypothetical barbarian queen all in one? 

[MoonDrummer]

I am a Templar supporter too. Not because I were anti-mage. Rather because I think the only way to improve the situation for mages is to adjust the way Templars handle them. You cannot control magic, hence you must find better ways to get along with it and that's where the Templars are important. Uh... I am not sure now but I think I voiced my reasoning some time before, though maybe it was in PM, I forgot.

 
Anyway, I sided with the mages in DAO. Because a killing spree in the Circle was no good. I made a moral choice there, not a political one, or even picked an orientation.
I think it's actually good that you need to dig a bit to understand the Templars. The notion of a good core in a corrupted shell, this is so realistic. I will refrain from real-world examples now but I do have some in mind. I am intrigued by finding this out, by actually having to put in effort to see it as opposed to it being presented readily. Trying to shape the Templars has become a deliberate choice for me, one where I feel that I as an individual matter because I've made up my mind. 
 
I do not like, e.g., that I so strongly feel that I am supposed to dislike the Qun. I hardly know anything about it, and I do get the supportive character once in a while, but overall BW pushes us to reject it. Siha does not like to be pushed. She likes to inquire and research and decide on her own. The Celene/Gaspard choice is similar, but has gotten too little (short) spotlight. The mag/Templar issue however gives me new aspects in every new game and I have absolutely no issues with the Templar choice being the underdogs. It feels more realistic, and maybe even more valuable for me therefore.
 

 
Ehh... I actually also colored my murder ballad version of the last picture. Or let's call it Sin City? Anyway, I don't dare post it here because I assume most people wouldn't appreciate it, but you actually might.
 
I have two versions and couldn't decide, so
Murder Ballads: Sin City (Solavellan)   white version -- black version
 

I'm not really a fan of the Templars, I think its mainly because in the past helping the Templars has largely involved just murdering mages. I think I take a similar attitude to Bull's view on Tevinter, I hate the Templars, but not individual templars. That makes no sense. 

 

 

In other news I have picked the Witcher 2 up from the shelf it has spent years gathering dust on, and been blown away by it. Those Dwarves

Spoiler

[Siha]

I'd say remove the text. The picture hits hard enough to go without it.

 

Alrighty, will do!

 

I'm not really a fan of the Templars, I think its mainly because in the past helping the Templars has largely involved just murdering mages. I think I take a similar attitude to Bull's view on Tevinter, I hate the Templars, but not individual templars. That makes no sense. 

 

In other news I have picked the Witcher 2 up from the shelf it has spent years gathering dust on, and been blown away by it. Those Dwarves

 

Eeh, makes sense alright. As I said, I side with them also not because they are the better choice but because I think they are the best way to start. The Templars are a rather... sub-optimally organized bunch. All the excesses happening there shouldn't even in the first place. That they go about killing things... well, seriously, siding with the mages hardly makes a difference in that book.

 

Really, only now you got The Witcher 2? Keith, what took you so long! That's one of the greatest RPGs I've played. Iorveth's IRA psychos and the 19th-century-communist dwarves, it's amazing! And that bard, singing songs of revolution and constantly telling you what an empty shell you are for not caring. All that if you go with Iorveth or course. The Roche path... I appreciated for showing me the other side, but will I not play again I guess. Best dwarves in a game ever, I think. The miners were just so awesome.

The Witcher 3 should just be out, I will get it shortly. I'll tell you if it's good once I'm through.

[MoonDrummer]

Alrighty, will do!

 

 

Eeh, makes sense alright. As I said, I side with them also not because they are the better choice but because I think they are the best way to start. The Templars are a rather... sub-optimally organized bunch. All the excesses happening there shouldn't even in the first place. That they go about killing things... well, seriously, siding with the mages hardly makes a difference in that book.

 

Really, only now you got The Witcher 2? Keith, what took you so long! That's one of the greatest RPGs I've played. Iorveth's IRA psychos and the 19th-century-communist dwarves, it's amazing! And that bard, singing songs of revolution and constantly telling you what an empty shell you are for not caring. All that if you go with Iorveth or course. The Roche path... I appreciated for showing me the other side, but will I not play again I guess. Best dwarves in a game ever, I think. The miners were just so awesome.

The Witcher 3 should just be out, I will get it shortly. I'll tell you if it's good once I'm through.

I've had it for years and just never bothered playing it. I feel like a bloody idiot now. I sided with Iorveth kinda by accident and have only just arrived at the Dwarven town now. King Folteste was a really cool guy, but as soon as he said he was going to allow to leave and live happily ever after I knew he was doomed. 

[Siha]

I've had it for years and just never bothered playing it. I feel like a bloody idiot now. I sided with Iorveth kinda by accident and have only just arrived at the Dwarven town now. King Folteste was a really cool guy, but as soon as he said he was going to allow to leave and live happily ever after I knew he was doomed. 

 

Oh, I won't call you bloody idiot to your face.

Iorveth is the best! That bloodthirsty madman is just adorable. I'd side with him again and again.

But be sure to go the Roche path at least once because it will be a completely different game then and it is great to see the other side of the coin.

And in The Witcher, just kill everything. Well... actually I let every major person live, hoping to see him/her again in the next game. (The decisions you make do actually matter here.)

Oh, and at the end, make sure to tell me what decision you made. I am curious!

[Cee]

Siha, the black version. So striking.

[Illyria]

I am so glad the intense theory crafting has started up again.

[nikki-tikki]

I'm so lost.

But while skipping all the massive posts I did see "Falon'Din" and "Dirthamen" so I might have to take a breather at work to fan out my panties.

[Siha]

Siha, the black version. So striking.

 

[lynroy]

I am so glad the intense theory crafting has started up again.

Me too. I'm just going to be in the corner absorbing it all.

[BoscoBread]

I'm so lost.

But while skipping all the massive posts I did see "Falon'Din" and "Dirthamen" so I might have to take a breather at work to fan out my panties.

This is how I feel about you right now:

 

[Illyria]

Me too. I'm just going to be in the corner absorbing it all.

 

I'll just pretened I understand it and go and play with the prompt generator.