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[DarthEmpress]

The generally accepted translation I'd heard before that was 'fear me, small child'.

 

And the 'da'len' thing is almost ruining Message Sent for me.

 

Spoiler

I find it creepier now he's called her that in speech. Even being drunk I would've told him what Finn told those mercs his parents hired.

 

Yeah, I'm really hoping that...

 

Spoiler

...the author starts using Vhenan instead of "da'len."  That's not a term of endearment.  It's a hierarchy thing-a-ma-jig for the Dalish, not to be used in romantic contexts :/  It's funny how he tells her to stop calling him "professor" but "hah'ren" is apparently all right...  I think it's funny if Lavellan calls him hah'ren sometimes and sometimes he calls her da'len just for joking around, but in serious matters, nope.

[Illyria]

Message Sent was kind of rescued by having her not be super young, but now....yeah, that was just....I hope it does not continue going there.

 

Except she's 27.  Speaking as a 27 year old I would not like to be called 'child' by a person I was seeing as romantic partner.   It's creepy and it really stands out in an otherwise flawless fanfic.

[Illyria]

Yeah, I'm really hoping that...

 

Spoiler

...the author starts using Vhenan instead of "da'len."  That's not a term of endearment.  It's a hierarchy thing-a-ma-jig for the Dalish, not to be used in romantic contexts :/  It's funny how he tells her to stop calling him "professor" but "hah'ren" is apparently all right...  I think it's funny if Lavellan calls him hah'ren sometimes and sometimes he calls her da'len just for joking around, but in serious matters, nope.

 

When I write fanfics my Lavellan (early 20's) uses 'hahren' as a joke, but Solas would never use it back.  He used it one time in the game and he hesitated before using it (which made me think he was using it in reponse to her use of 'hahren' and would not have used it otherwise).

[Cee]

Except she's 27.  Speaking as a 27 year old I would not like to be called 'child' by a person I was seeing as romantic partner.   It's creepy and it really stands out in an otherwise flawless fanfic.

 

Yep, yep, this exactly. It was slightly creepier when her age was more unclear but it's still totally infantilizing and maintains creepiness.
 

[Gwyvian]

*skips through drowner-infested marsh* 

 

So! All this fic writing. I have such ideas about writing one, yet there is never enough time... 

[RynJ]

The generally accepted translation I'd heard before that was 'fear me, small child'.

 

And the 'da'len' thing is almost ruining Message Sent for me.

 

Spoiler

I find it creepier now he's called her that in speech. Even being drunk I would've told him what Finn told those mercs his parents hired.

 

I've seen the "You lie, child" translation before and always thought it made much more sense than "fear me, child". I'm not sure why Solas would even bother saying that or why Mihris would be particularly scared. It's not like she knows who he is.

 

I also agree on the da'len thing. He even hesitates to call the Inquisitor that the one time he does. I don't imagine he likes the idea of treating Lavellan like a child, especially if he's romancing her. Beyond everything, it might just be too much of a creepy reminder of their /real/ age difference. 

 

Also, hi all! Haven't been here in a while. How's it going?

[Sifr]

An interesting post on Solas' first personal quest:

 

http://corseque.tumb...st/120094167307

 

That's also the first time I've seen 'ma harel, da'len' translated as 'you lie, little child.'

 

(it also sums up why I really dislike the use of 'da'len' in romance fanfics - Solas generally only uses when he's being super condsending.  Also, it infantilizes Lavellan when he uses it.)

 

That's part of what I like about Elvish, it's seems that the Elves are fond of wordplay (as much as I am) and purposely constructed their language so a sentence can take on mutliple layers of meaning, depending on the context, while still making sense each time.

 

Based on what Mihris is saying about her past and her qualifications, Solas' rebuke to her could be simply "You lie, little child" and calling out her deception, "My lying little child" if they're conspirators together (that Mihris shows up there of all places is a remarkable coincidence) or the more ominous "Fear me, little child", seeking to unnerve her by hinting to her who and what he really is?

 

(But yeah, he should be using Lethallan or something in romance fics, since even if Solas doesn't really see the Dalish as his "kinsman", it's a lot better than referring to Lavellan as a kid? Parents, a Hahren or a Keeper should be the only ones ever using "Da'len" when talking to people.)

[S.W.]

Can I second all of the comments on da'len? Really infantilising, condescending, puts in a dangerous power hierarchy in a relationship that should be on equal terms (and I think, given the conversation about removal vallaslin, that the relationship be on *equal* terms is actually really important).

 

I've been in two long-distance relationships where I met my partners on the internet before, whilst in my teens, so I *get* all of Message Sent in its entirety, I've had those kind of conversations where you talk about everything asides from yourselves, those stunned phone calls where you have nothing to say, the excitement and the nervousness of the idea of meeting - for *real*. But at the same time, a close friend of mine back when she was at school was involved in an abusive, predatory relationship with her teacher (she was 18 then, he was 56). Message Sent constantly sets off alarm bells in my head which remind me of that relationship - the da'len thing being one of them. It doesn't help that Lavellen comes off as much younger than 27.

 

No disrespect to the author - you write really quite wonderfully, but I find it personally really uncomfortable to read because of past experiences.

[Cee]

One of the things I like about the actual Solas romance is the fact that, having earned his respect and admiration, as well as being someone he loves, he does treat you like an equal. The friendship path also kind of gets at that. He can be a condescending man but he also knows that sometimes his assumptions can be wrong and he will apologize if that is the case, and even sometimes adjust his thinking on a matter.

 

So, aside from any weird real world implications, the da'len/hahren thing just doesn't feel attuned to the actual relationship at all. As a lot of people, even in here, have been noting.

[CapricornSun]

Art break. 

 

Solavellan cuddles in the dark.

Spoiler

http://seigl.tumblr....our-dream-diary

 

 

Kisses

Spoiler

http://scatcatz.tumb...pillars-page-12

 

 

Solas looking all dangerous, bloodied, and kinda sexy. 

Spoiler

http://ankalime.tumb...416945/solas-7f

 

 

Cute little Solas.

Spoiler

http://hedgehawke.tu...-for-my-sidebar

 

 

Dorian couldn't handle that fire drink thing that Bull shares with you after the first dragon kill. The other Inquisition members watch. xD

Spoiler

http://j-spencer15.t...dnt-handle-that

 

 

 

EDIT: Forgot to add these.

 

Cute little pattern design of Lavellan and fluffy white wolf Solas by osatokun.

Spoiler

http://osatokun.tumb...ight-everyone-u

 

 

And osatokun's super NSFW art of Solas and deedylovescake's Lavellan. Very hot though.

Modifié par CapricornSun, 01 juin 2015 - 04:24 .

[Cee]

Cole in that last comic.

[Patchwork]

The hahren/da'len thing is also weird to me because it's something that never happens in my playthroughs. It's a top response in one conversation (and give me the sarky "allergic to halla?" any day) then it's never said again.  

[Illyria]

That's part of what I like about Elvish, it's seems that the Elves are fond of wordplay (as much as I am) and purposely constructed their language so a sentence can take on mutliple layers of meaning, depending on the context, while still making sense each time.

 

Based on what Mihris is saying about her past and her qualifications, Solas' rebuke to her could be simply "You lie, little child" and calling out her deception, "My lying little child" if they're conspirators together (that Mihris shows up there of all places is a remarkable coincidence) or the more ominous "Fear me, little child", seeking to unnerve her by hinting to her who and what he really is?

 

(But yeah, he should be using Lethallan or something in romance fics, since even if Solas doesn't really see the Dalish as his "kinsman", it's a lot better than referring to Lavellan as a kid? Parents, a Hahren or a Keeper should be the only ones ever using "Da'len" when talking to people.)

 

Solas canonically uses 'lethallan' far more than he does 'da'len'. (does anyone know if he uses lethallan/lin with a non-elven Inky?)

 

Can I second all of the comments on da'len? Really infantilising, condescending, puts in a dangerous power hierarchy in a relationship that should be on equal terms (and I think, given the conversation about removal vallaslin, that the relationship be on *equal* terms is actually really important).

 

I've been in two long-distance relationships where I met my partners on the internet before, whilst in my teens, so I *get* all of Message Sent in its entirety, I've had those kind of conversations where you talk about everything asides from yourselves, those stunned phone calls where you have nothing to say, the excitement and the nervousness of the idea of meeting - for *real*. But at the same time, a close friend of mine back when she was at school was involved in an abusive, predatory relationship with her teacher (she was 18 then, he was 56). Message Sent constantly sets off alarm bells in my head which remind me of that relationship - the da'len thing being one of them. It doesn't help that Lavellen comes off as much younger than 27.

 

No disrespect to the author - you write really quite wonderfully, but I find it personally really uncomfortable to read because of past experiences.

 

I really hope your friend is okay.  And that teacher is no longer allowed near children.

 

I agree that Lavellan (based on her texting style) comes off as much, munch younger than 27.  I thought orignally she was 21/22.

 

One of the things I like about the actual Solas romance is the fact that, having earned his respect and admiration, as well as being someone he loves, he does treat you like an equal. The friendship path also kind of gets at that. He can be a condescending man but he also knows that sometimes his assumptions can be wrong and he will apologize if that is the case, and even sometimes adjust his thinking on a matter.

 

So, aside from any weird real world implications, the da'len/hahren thing just doesn't feel attuned to the actual relationship at all. As a lot of people, even in here, have been noting.

 

^^^^^^ just this.  Anyone have an AO3 account and feel like leaving a super tactful review on the subject?  Most authors welcome feedback on what works/doesn't work in their writing.

 

Dorian couldn't handle that fire drink thing that Bull shares with you after the first dragon kill. The other Inquisition members watch. xD

Spoiler

http://j-spencer15.t...dnt-handle-that

 

 

 

EDIT: Forgot to add these.

 

Cute little pattern design of Lavellan and fluffy white wolf Solas by osatokun.

Spoiler

http://osatokun.tumb...ight-everyone-u

 

 

 

Sera's reaction!  Where's Cass' 'I ship it' image when I need it?

 

And I want the cute wolfy ones as pajamas.  Or as Lavellan's Skyhold jammies.

 

The hahren/da'len thing is also weird to me because it's something that never happens in my playthroughs. It's a top response in one conversation (and give me the sarky "allergic to halla?" any day) then it's never said again.  

 

The 'allergic to halla' line comes before the 'ir abelas, ha'hren' line.  I've always had them both during that converstation.

[Ashaantha]

Solas canonically uses 'lethallan' far more than he does 'da'len'. (does anyone know if he uses lethallan/lin with a non-elven Inky?)

 

He has never called my humans that in-game, only uses "my friend", along with just their title. I can't speak for anyone else though.

[Vorathrad]

Hi people, coming back after a while.

 

That's part of what I like about Elvish, it's seems that the Elves are fond of wordplay (as much as I am) and purposely constructed their language so a sentence can take on mutliple layers of meaning, depending on the context, while still making sense each time.

 

Yes, it certainly seems that way; it's strongly supported by the scene you get if you didn't do the DR and Morrigan drank from the Well

 

Spoiler

At the beginning of the scene where you go to summon Mythal, Morrigan is seen reading a book in Elvish and commenting how many layers of meaning she had been missing, and how the text seems inifinitely richer now she can fully understand it thanks to the knowledge of the Well. I've tried finding a video but can't find one.

[DustyTulip]

An interesting post on Solas' first personal quest:

 

http://corseque.tumb...st/120094167307

 

That's also the first time I've seen 'ma harel, da'len' translated as 'you lie, little child.'

 

(it also sums up why I really dislike the use of 'da'len' in romance fanfics - Solas generally only uses when he's being super condsending.  Also, it infantilizes Lavellan when he uses it.)

 

I was actually reading this on tumblr on my way to work today and found it quite interesting: http://therealdragon...olas-and-mirhis. (not sure if this has been posted before?.. sorry,  if it was). All my playthroughs were as Dalish Elf so I never picked up on this.

[Patchwork]

 

The 'allergic to halla' line comes before the 'ir abelas, ha'hren' line.  I've always had them both during that converstation.

 

See I don't even know where it happens in the conversation!

I really only know about it because it's popular in fanfics and from discussion here. Haren/da'len just isn't something that happens in my game.  

[Illyria]

He has never called my humans that in-game, only uses "my friend", along with just their title. I can't speak for anyone else though.

 

Thanks for that.  *files it away for late fanfic use*

 

See I don't even know where it happens in the conversation!

I really only know about it because it's popular in fanfics and from discussion here. Haren/da'len just isn't something that happens in my game.  

 

The line is quite sweet because it has Solas responding to her in the style of the Dalish.  It's a nice contrast with the rather hostile way he first answers her.  But he does hesitate before he uses the word and it's clearly only used in response to her 'ha'hren'.

[Illyria]

I was actually reading this on tumblr on my way to work today and found it quite interesting: http://therealdragon...olas-and-mirhis. (not sure if this has been posted before?.. sorry,  if it was). All my playthroughs were as Dalish Elf so I never picked up on this.

 

I am almost positive I've heard the 'ma harel, da'len' line as a Dalish, but it was several playthroughs before I heard it (I think you need to let the dialouge go on for some time.)

[CapricornSun]

I agree that Lavellan (based on her texting style) comes off as much, munch younger than 27.  I thought orignally she was 21/22.

 

I admit, I also thought Lavellan was in her early 20s. It caught me by surprise when it turned out she's actually 27.

 

^^^^^^ just this.  Anyone have an AO3 account and feel like leaving a super tactful review on the subject?  Most authors welcome feedback on what works/doesn't work in their writing.

 

You could also try sending her an 'ask' on Tumblr. She seems to respond to quite a number of them. Not sure if the "da'len" thing has been brought up before though.

 

Sera's reaction!  Where's Cass' 'I ship it' image when I need it?

 

 

 

EDIT: I didn't realize I was top of the page. Have a beautiful Solas screenshot. (I really love captaincaranis' Solas screenshots! )

 

SOURCE

 

[CapricornSun]

Some art again.

 

Solas leaves.

Spoiler

http://50shadesoftha...113230/he-leave

 

 

"You lie, little one."

Spoiler

http://harellanart.t...-a-quick-sketch

 

 

Solas doing some magic.

Spoiler

http://guardiansouls...his-one-i-added

 

 

Lavellan, Solas and Blackwall based on the Bridget Jones' Diary movie poster.

Spoiler

http://girltriesgame...miserable-whats

 

 

 

And some more NSFW Solavellan for those who want it. 

[Illyria]

I admit, I also thought Lavellan was in her early 20s. It caught me by surprise when it turned out she's actually 27.

 

 

You could also try sending her an 'ask' on Tumblr. She seems to respond to quite a number of them. Not sure if the "da'len" thing has been brought up before though.

 

 

 

 

 

I would leave a message but I'm worried I'd come off as rude.

[Illyria]

Hi people, coming back after a while.

 

 

Yes, it certainly seems that way; it's strongly supported by the scene you get if you didn't do the DR and Morrigan drank from the Well

 

Spoiler

At the beginning of the scene where you go to summon Mythal, Morrigan is seen reading a book in Elvish and commenting how many layers of meaning she had been missing, and how the text seems inifinitely richer now she can fully understand it thanks to the knowledge of the Well. I've tried finding a video but can't find one.

 

Welcome back!

 

I've never seen the non-DR version of the meeting Flemeth scene.  That sounds really interesting.

[Heidirs]

So I spent nearly $80 on Dragon Age books, getting both Worlds of Thedas volumes and the comic collection. My hubby said with all this extra knowledge I was going to have on hand with all this reading, I'd have to run a campaign of the Dragon Age RPG and he went and found me all the pdf sets. I'm still reading The Masked Empire, and I think it would make for a lovely campaign, so it looks like that's going to happen now.

 

I just have a lot of reading to finish.

 

 

 

EDIT: So, backtracking and reading people's thoughts on the word "da'len." And while normally, I'd agree with everyone's sentiments, reading The Masked Empire has altered my thoughts a little. Briala and Felassan call each other haren and da'len all the time, and Briala is hardly a child. The Keepers of Dalish clans at the very least call their Firsts and Seconds da'len, if not everyone in the clan.

 

Though the literal translation of da'len is "child," I think the meaning might be closer to "student" and haren closer to "mentor" than "elder." Think about it. Felassan is always referred to in the text as Briala's "mentor" and she is constantly learning from him. The Keeper of a clan is the one who preserves the ancient ways of the elves and teaches it to the rest of the clan.

 

I agree that if my significant other called me "kid" or "child", I'd find it extremely condescending and that would certainly be a red flag in the relationship. Now, the idea of mentor vs student can also be troubling in a relationship as the two of you should be on equal footing. I haven't caught up on Message Sent, sadly, but I don't think the use of da'len and haren should be much of an issue as the main character is a student and Solas is a teacher. However, once a relationship has started, I do think the use of those words should wane as that doesn't seem appropriate for a romantic relationship. But before that and when just starting out (giving some leeway for force of habit and fumbling through the status of the relationship), I think those words would be appropriate for this situation.

 

Just thoughts.

[Illyria]

So I spent nearly $80 on Dragon Age books, getting both Worlds of Thedas volumes and the comic collection. My hubby said with all this extra knowledge I was going to have on hand with all this reading, I'd have to run a campaign of the Dragon Age RPG and he went and found me all the pdf sets. I'm still reading The Masked Empire, and I think it would make for a lovely campaign, so it looks like that's going to happen now.

 

I just have a lot of reading to finish.

 

 

 

EDIT: So, backtracking and reading people's thoughts on the word "da'len." And while normally, I'd agree with everyone's sentiments, reading The Masked Empire has altered my thoughts a little. Briala and Felassan call each other haren and da'len all the time, and Briala is hardly a child. The Keepers of Dalish clans at the very least call their Firsts and Seconds da'len, if not everyone in the clan.

 

Though the literal translation of da'len is "child," I think the meaning might be closer to "student" and haren closer to "mentor" than "elder." Think about it. Felassan is always referred to in the text as Briala's "mentor" and she is constantly learning from him. The Keeper of a clan is the one who preserves the ancient ways of the elves and teaches it to the rest of the clan.

 

I agree that if my significant other called me "kid" or "child", I'd find it extremely condescending and that would certainly be a red flag in the relationship. Now, the idea of mentor vs student can also be troubling in a relationship as the two of you should be on equal footing. I haven't caught up on Message Sent, sadly, but I don't think the use of da'len and haren should be much of an issue as the main character is a student and Solas is a teacher. However, once a relationship has started, I do think the use of those words should wane as that doesn't seem appropriate for a romantic relationship. But before that and when just starting out (giving some leeway for force of habit and fumbling through the status of the relationship), I think those words would be appropriate for this situation.

 

Just thoughts.

 

My issue isn't with the use of the words (since it's clearly a Dalish thing - Ellana also uses it with her Keeper, after all) but with the context.  Solas often thinks of Ellana as 'his da'len' while thinking about her in a romantic context.  It's especially irksom as Solas only ever uses da'len once in the game with Lavellan, as a reponse to her use of 'ha'hren'.  All the other times he's used it have been when he's insulting someone (mostly Mhiris).  In the game Solas uses 'lethallan' with a Lavellan he's friendly with.

 

Bria and Felassan are deliberatly mimicing the Dalish use of ha'hren and da'len.  It's also not romantic (while Weekes hasn't confirmed Bria's sexuality she is in a relationship for most of the book and an 'it's complicated' for the rest).