Solas is a big believer in freedom .. of thought, of self. Binding yourself to another being like that, putting yourself completely under someone else's control .. is pretty much anathema to him.
Slightly off topic, how did you come up with a name for your character? I am toying with the idea doing a run with a Dalish archer and a tweaked world state that is a little grimmer than my canon play-through.
I've been looking at FenxShiral's work, but I am struggling to understand how to put words together to get a name. From their work, it seems like you take were the two or three words overlap and go from there. Is word order important or not? Sometimes it seems like the names take the beginning of a word while others seem to use the middle or end of a word use in the construction of the name. How do you know which part of a word to use? If any of you have a better grasp on this I would be eternally grateful.
I have asked FenxShiral through their Tumblr, but I think that I might have come off as asking them to create name for me as I character count for asking a question did not allow me to go into detail as to what I was struggling with.
I use a name generator. 'Fantasy name generators' has a pretty good selection including The Lord of the Rings (complete with meanings), Dragon Age and Elder Scrolls. I also have a dictonary of Tolkien's languages.
You mean even if the leash is being held by someone trustworthy?
It doesn't matter who holds the leash, it's still taking away their freedom. That's why he hates the Qun.
You mean even if the leash is being held by someone trustworthy?
I'm fairly certain that Solas wouldn't even want himself to have that kind of power over the Inquisitor. But whether he trusts Mythal or not is irrelevant. It's the principle. Once the Inquisitor drinks from the Well they no longer belong to themselves, they belong to someone else. And that's what angers Solas.
Solas is a big believer in freedom .. of thought, of self. Binding yourself to another being like that, putting yourself completely under someone else's control .. is pretty much anathema to him.
I think it's also that you're diving into something you don't at all understand, knowing there are consequences and not caring that you don't know what they are. He always disapproves when you make decisions that aren't thought out well. I always liked that he disapproved in Haven when you offer to sacrifice yourself for the sake of Haven. He doesn't disapprove of martyring yourself, clearly, but not if you're just being blindly heroic and throwing your life away when you're the only one who can close the demon-spitting rifts.
I think it's also that you're diving into something you don't at all understand, knowing there are consequences and not caring that you don't know what they are. He always disapproves when you make decisions that aren't thought out well. I always liked that he disapproved in Haven when you offer to sacrifice yourself for the sake of Haven. He doesn't disapprove of martyring yourself, clearly, but not if you're just being blindly heroic and throwing your life away when you're the only one who can close the demon-spitting rifts.
Agreed. It would be a combination of putting yourself under another's absolute control and doing so without really considering the implications. Although the Inquisitor seems to have a greater grasp of the consequences than Morrigan does.
His conversation with Cole about binding Cole answers that question pretty clearly.
Yes!
And I know the fandom picks up on this hardcore, but it is fen'halarious* that the writers gave Solas, of all people, the innuendos to do with ... indomitable... and... binding. Oh and guys -- it's been a long time since he's been able to "trust" someone 
I squint my eyes at the writers. -squints-
*I'm making it happen.
Yes!
And I know the fandom picks up on this hardcore, but it is fen'halarious* that the writers gave Solas, of all people, the innuendos to do with ... indomitable... and... binding. Oh and guys -- it's been a long time since he's been able to "trust" someone
I squint my eyes at the writers. -squints-
*I'm making it happen.
*wipes away a tear*
I am so glad you've taken Fen'Halarious into your heart.
*wipes away a tear*
I am so glad you've taken Fen'Halarious into your heart.
Wait...
I cannot remember who came up with Fen'Halarious.
I remember I wrote a thing, then you made the thing into the dog comic but who used it first: me or you?
Wait...
I cannot remember who came up with Fen'Halarious.
I remember I wrote a thing, then you made the thing into the dog comic but who used it first: me or you?
I said it first -- you came up with a dialogue -- I modded dialogue in to a dog comic. IT WAS GROUP EFFORT 
And it's gonna catch on, dangnammit! Edit, for those who don't know:
Hihi! How've you all been? I'm on kind of an anti-Cullen roll so, because incorrectdragonage is on hiatus (sadfaaaaaace), I made this :3
"solas will have none of your shemlen nonsense."
The hate I've seen Solas get over this truly baffles me, it really does. Is it because he says how he feels about them and it's not supportive of them? Is he supposed to pretend he's alright with the markings because the Dalish view them differently now?
I agree the hate isn't warranted but I also think Solas lacks tact sometimes and I think that's where most of their frustrations stem from, especially because it's something as big as this bombshell. Sure, it's no biggie to him. He lived it. But it's huge to her because it basically uproots everything she knows about her culture and history. Kinda hard to swallow the fact that you and your people have been living with slave markings on their faces their entire lives. It's not about how he feels because we know how he feels. It's about how Lavellan feels. He put her in a really difficult predicament: choose to live the rest of your life with slave markings and constantly be reminded every time you see another Dalish clan member, living in willful ignorance or remove a symbol of everything you've ever known about your culture and risk having your lifelong friends and family resent you for it. I agree with you it's not abusive considering what they are but it definitely was tactless.
I think it's because he values freedom so much, and if he truly led a rebellion of sorts, then it'd oppose what he worked so hard for. Which of course, leads us in to the question of... well, if they worked together, then why didn't Mythal renounce her slaves?
I don't think the Sentinels are slaves.
Abelas' words before you drink from the Well, about being prepared to make a commitment and dedicating themselves to their goal with an almost single-minded purpose, makes me think that Mythal strongly believes in this philosophy.
We see this reflected in Flemeth's advice to the Warden where she urges them to not back down when confronted with obstacles and do whatever they must to end the Blight, as well as advising Hawke that when things are at their worst, they must be prepared to act without hesitation.
Rather than slaves, I suspect that the Sentinels are willing servants who've dedicated themselves to her and marked themselves with the vallaslin as a sign of that covenant. While they might be bound to her will and she can compel them, I doubt she exercises that right unless needed, because she values her followers to be able to think for themselves and make their own choices, as well as have the strength to follow those choices to the bitter end.
Makes me reckon that the reason those Sentinels have remained to guard an empty temple, long after the fall of Elvhenan and the loss of their Gods, is because long ago they made a choice to serve Mythal and guard the Well for as long as it exists. It's a matter of honour that the Sentinels refuse to give up their assigned task until either they are capable of fulfilling it, or no longer are able to carry it out (likely only because they are slain).
That kinda "death before dishonour" mentality reminds me of the Qunari, as we saw in DA2 they were prepared to sit and wait for years trying to find the Tome of Koslun without success, rather than call the mission a failure and return to Par Vollen empty handed.
I came away with a similar impression. And there are notes (I think one of the elven notes you can read if you drank from the well....or conveniently on the wiki mentions Abelas has already shed a name before and is preparing to do so once more). This serve seems more like a willing religious dedication of sorts than any sort of slavery. Vallaslin did represent a god, in its original form, but was also eventually corrupted and spread through power and nobility and all of that until eventually winding up claimed by the Dalish in a game of Telephone. The sentinels having vallaslin shouldn't necessarily be taken as slave markings, because they were not marked to be identified as property or to curry favor with the gods. Think of it as like...monastic rites.
I agree the hate isn't warranted but I also think Solas lacks tact sometimes and I think that's where most of their frustrations stem from, especially because it's something as big as this bombshell. Sure, it's no biggie to him. He lived it. But it's huge to her because it basically uproots everything she knows about her culture and history. Kinda hard to swallow the fact that you and your people have been living with slave markings on their faces their entire lives. It's not about how he feels because we know how he feels. It's about how Lavellan feels. He put her in a really difficult predicament: choose to live the rest of your life with slave markings and constantly be reminded every time you see another Dalish clan member, living in willful ignorance or remove a symbol of everything you've ever known about your culture and risk having your lifelong friends and family resent you for it. I agree with you it's not abusive considering what they are but it definitely was tactless.
Well tactless seems fitting, since it's basically what he decided to blurt out last minute when he decided he couldn't tell you the truth. 
Then again, with that kind of revelation, telling it like ripping off a bandaid seems the only real way to do it.
And I wish the tactlessness was what the dislike stemmed from but it isn't really. Not that I've seen. People say that the fact that he said anything at all was racist towards Dalish and abusive towards the Inquisitor.
Also, I agree that the Sentinels didn't really seem like slaves. But you'd think Solas would mention that vallaslin weren't always used as slave markings even in the old days during that conversation with the Inquisitor. He can just use his oh-so-convincing excuse of "I saw it in the Fade". Unless he does consider the Sentinels close to slaves because they're bound to Mythal. He's furious when the Inquisitor partakes of that Well and becomes bound to Mythal, after all.
I don't think the Sentinels are slaves.
I agree.
This codex says it all to me.
"We are trapped. The ones born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost, or why so many of their elders weep as they enter uthenera. The new ones are faithful to Mythal, but do not understand what she was in her fullness. Without the wise to lead them, they will lose what they should have been.
I will teach them. They must serve. We must prepare for those who cast Mythal down. I shed my name the day I began her service. I shed my new one again, now that she rests. I will only be known by the sorrow that cuts my heart."
I don't know. It just doesn't sound like slaves. It sounds more like it is written by a loyal soldier or something along those lines. The only part that even sounds slave-like is the "They must serve" but within the context it just doesn't really seem that way to me.
Another interesting note is the "We must prepare for those who cast Mythal down."
The priests of Dirthamen say something similar.
They will come for us in the night
Those who could steal the words from our lips
And our god no longer rises to our defense.
I would say that they must be talking about the Tevinter Imperium ransacking temples after the fall of Arlathan or something, but humans didn't have anything to do with the murder of Mythal......right? >_>
And if the first was written by Abelas, I want to know his previous names.
I agree.
This codex says it all to me.
"We are trapped. The ones born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost, or why so many of their elders weep as they enter uthenera. The new ones are faithful to Mythal, but do not understand what she was in her fullness. Without the wise to lead them, they will lose what they should have been.
I will teach them. They must serve. We must prepare for those who cast Mythal down. I shed my name the day I began her service. I shed my new one again, now that she rests. I will only be known by the sorrow that cuts my heart."
I don't know. It just doesn't sound like slaves. It sounds more like it is written by a loyal soldier or something along those lines. The only part that even sounds slave-like is the "They must serve" but within the context it just doesn't really seem that way to me.
Another interesting note is the "We must prepare for those who cast Mythal down."
The priests of Dirthamen say something similar.
They will come for us in the night
Those who could steal the words from our lips
And our god no longer rises to our defense.
I would say that they must be talking about the Tevinter Imperium ransacking temples after the fall of Arlathan or something, but humans didn't have anything to do with the murder of Mythal......right? >_>
And if the first was written by Abelas, I want to know his previous names.
I don't think the humans had anything to do with Mythal's murder. Mythal considered her own murder to be a betrayal for one. And for another doesn't Abelas say that the elves had destroyed themselves before the humans invaded?
I don't think the humans had anything to do with Mythal's murder. Mythal considered her own murder to be a betrayal for one. And for another doesn't Abelas say that the elves had destroyed themselves before the humans invaded?
Yeah...so who would have been after Dirthamen's folks? Unless there was a decent amount of time between Mythal's murder and the rest of the pantheon being sealed away. There was that whole sinner situation and maybe Dirthamen would have been a suspect or something.
....don't think it would have been our dear Solas and his rebellion.....or maybe....>_>
I just want Bioware to answer this stuff......it keeps me up at night.
Probably something I shouldn't admit.
Yeah, the Sentinels have more reason than anyone else to wear the vallaslin because they actually do serve their patron diety.
No wonder they're so irritated by seeing Elves wearing vallaslin. The Sentinels probably felt it was sarcilege of the highest order to have their dedication to their patron and wearing of the vallaslin mocked by the nobles in Elvhenan, when elected to play dress up with their slaves in an attempt to curry favour.
And then centuries later, the Sentinels now awaken to find the Dalish now sporting those same markings, having parroted them with no clue of their meaning or context. To them, who know the meaning of those marks and wear them accordingly, that's probably even more of a slap in the face.
It's kinda the Ta Moko to the Maori. The practice is both sacred and part of their cultural identity, so whenever foreigners misappropriate those tattoos simply because they look cool, of course they're going to find the whole thing deeply offensive?
Rather than slaves, I suspect that the Sentinels are willing servants who've dedicated themselves to her and marked themselves with the vallaslin as a sign of that covenant. While they might be bound to her will and she can compel them, I doubt she exercises that right unless needed, because she values her followers to be able to think for themselves and make their own choices, as well as have the strength to follow those choices to the bitter end.
...
That kinda "death before dishonour" mentality reminds me of the Qunari, as we saw in DA2 they were prepared to sit and wait for years trying to find the Tome of Koslun without success, rather than call the mission a failure and return to Par Vollen empty handed.
I came away with a similar impression. And there are notes (I think one of the elven notes you can read if you drank from the well....or conveniently on the wiki mentions Abelas has already shed a name before and is preparing to do so once more). This serve seems more like a willing religious dedication of sorts than any sort of slavery. Vallaslin did represent a god, in its original form, but was also eventually corrupted and spread through power and nobility and all of that until eventually winding up claimed by the Dalish in a game of Telephone. The sentinels having vallaslin shouldn't necessarily be taken as slave markings, because they were not marked to be identified as property or to curry favor with the gods. Think of it as like...monastic rites.
All good points! I kind of consider the Sentinels to be like... samurai? And the slave markings they have might indeed be representational of their dedication, yeah! Originally when I mentioned the slave bit I was talking about the Well, and while I hadn't thought too hard about them, the Sentinels are good counter-examples to use. I wonder if they are actually bound by the will of Mythal, or if their pride/honour binds them? Because if, as you suggest, they are willing servants -- she surely wouldn't compel them if she believes in making personal choices, right? And only those who drank from the well would be compelled. So I guess yes, the vallaslin are not supposed to represent slave markings for the Sentinels...? I wonder if we will learn more about the vallaslin. Maybe they were used in honour before they became brandings. Or do we already know this and I've just forgotten?
I was thinking more along the lines of the well, though. The gaes. Whoever drinks would become a slave, basically, right? They'd have their own minds but be compelled to follow another's if the other so chose. Solas seems against it no matter what -- but Mythal seemed okay with it. Though there are theories she kept it around to help out future generations, this is totally true. But makes me wonder -- if other devices such as the well existed, maybe Felassan was compelled as such -- and that is why he is so duo-seeming (a slave but a rebel).
Edit: ToP Solas! Source
Yeah, the Sentinels have more reason than anyone else to wear the vallaslin because they actually do serve their patron diety.
No wonder they're so irritated by seeing Elves wearing vallaslin. The Sentinels probably felt it was sarcilege of the highest order to have their dedication to their patron and wearing of the vallaslin mocked by the nobles in Elvhenan, when elected to play dress up with their slaves in an attempt to curry favour.
And then centuries later, the Sentinels now awaken to find the Dalish now sporting those same markings, having parroted them with no clue of their meaning or context. To them, who know the meaning of those marks and wear them accordingly, that's probably even more of a slap in the face.
It's kinda the Ta Moko to the Maori. The practice is both sacred and part of their cultural identity, so whenever foreigners misappropriate those tattoos simply because they look cool, of course they're going to find the whole thing deeply offensive?
It makes me wonder if modern elves would be able to integrate somehow into service like the Sentinels. Cause you are probably right. Those Sentinels are actually serving Mythal, and anyone else wearing her vallaslin is out for a picnic in the woods as far as they are concerned. But I wonder if they would turn down someone actually wanting to serve.
I bet the trials and training it would take to be one of those Sentinels would take a lifetime for a modern elf or something. And while Solas seems to be someone who enjoys teaching what he knows....I have this feeling that Abelas' classes would be depressing as all hell. I mean....the guy named himself sorrow. Solas talks about Arlathan with pride and makes you want to go there and see it for yourself... Abelas would probably make you want to shoot yourself over just the thought of thinking about Arlathan and Mythal.
Kinda makes you wonder about Abelas and Mythal. >_>
Tiny art break
Just one very beautiful work of art I wanted to share with you all. It's been a slow art day, but I think this piece makes up for it.
http://welehort.devi...-Wolf-537978389
Ehh, I think the sentinels were slaves. I think they were willing slaves, but I think they were slaves. They had vallaslin. Solas says that means slavery. If vallaslin sometimes meant slavery and also sometimes meant "non-slave priests," then Solas wouldn't have corrected the Dalish interpretation. Markings that honor the guards...because the priests at the temples wear them. That'd be a legit interpretation that Solas wouldn't need to go all Solas on. The vallaslin on the priests may even be where/how the Dalish got the distorted idea of what the vallaslin were. But the vallaslin can only ACTUALLY be slave markings if the priests were ACTUALLY slaves.
And we don't really know Mythal's feelings on the subject. We know there's a well where you can bind yourself to her will--not exactly evidence supporting anti-slavery. And it's not like she wastes any time or has any problem using it very shortly after in the potential Morrigan/Kieran scene. Maybe the priests made the choice on their own to become slaves. Maybe there are ways to stop being a slave. Maybe Mythal doesn't overpower their will very often, but she CAN. We see her do it. We see her do it--smugly and laughing even.
The only thing that would suggest Mythal is against slavery is that she is buddies with someone who is against it which doesn't say that much to me. So...I think the sentinels were slaves. Just not unhappy ones.
All good points! I kind of consider the Sentinels to be like... samurai? And the slave markings they have might indeed be representational of their dedication, yeah! Originally when I mentioned the slave bit I was talking about the Well, and while I hadn't thought too hard about them, the Sentinels are good counter-examples to use. I wonder if they are actually bound by the will of Mythal, or if their pride/honour binds them? Because if, as you suggest, they are willing servants -- she surely wouldn't compel them if she believes in making personal choices, right? And only those who drank from the well would be compelled. So I guess yes, the vallaslin are not supposed to represent slave markings for the Sentinels...? I wonder if we will learn more about the vallaslin. Maybe they were used in honour before they became brandings. Or do we already know this and I've just forgotten?
I was thinking more along the lines of the well, though. The gaes. Whoever drinks would become a slave, basically, right? They'd have their own minds but be compelled to follow another's if the other so chose. Solas seems against it no matter what -- but Mythal seemed okay with it. Though there are theories she kept it around to help out future generations, this is totally true. But makes me wonder -- if other devices such as the well existed, maybe Felassan was compelled as such -- and that is why he is so duo-seeming (a slave but a rebel).
Like the idea of the Sentinels as a kind of Elven Samurai. It definitely makes those comparisons between Abelas/Javik seem more fitting, since Bioware were heavily inspired by Samurai when designing the look of Javik's armour in ME3.
The gaes is a weird issue because Mythal seems to value choice a lot, so putting someone under a compulsion seems contradictory? Perhaps then, rather than forcing her servants to act against their will and turning into slaves, the compulsion merely reminds them of the vows or promises they made, thus strengthening and reinforcing their will to endure and continue their task.
(If they're still immortal, they've got a lot of time on their hands anyway... and besides, with no Empire anymore, what else do they have to do?)
While Solas might be correct that an Inquisitor who drank from the Well is now carrying out her will, whether they are aware of it or not, I think that Mythal is the sort of entity who prefers a more gentle nudge approach to lead someone to the answer or destination they seek, rather than "Assuming Direct Control" and forcing them to do her will against their own.
While she does briefly take control over Morrigan or the Inquisitor, it was in self-defence when they made a motion to attack her first. Even then, all she does is have Morrigan floor the Inquisitor or the Inquisitor restrain Morrigan to prevent them from attacking and then immediately relinquishes control, as a show of force and to demonstrate her power.
As I suggested a few pages back, that kind of compulsion might be the same for Flemeth and Mythal as well, that Flemeth is for the most parts a free agent in how she acts, but Mythal occasionally exerts some influence over her to ensure that her plans are carried out in the way she wanted.
Having that kind of duality would explain as well perhaps why Flemeth sometimes shift gears from being a relatively laid back "old hag who talks too much" to showing such extreme bitterness and anger... that even though she's not the original Flemeth, she still feels rage at the betrayal both Flemeth and Mythal suffered, as if those terrible things happened to her?
I reckon it's slavery. A romanticised form of slavery, where one believes complete submission to the gods is a virtuous sacrifice, but slavery nonetheless. In some cases I imagine it may be more subtle: likely, being a sentinel requires a large amount of training, and thus slaves would likely be chosen from birth to train in those roles, expecting nothing else from their lives. It's not too different from training up an apprentice except you lack the choice between going into your trade and dire poverty. Amongst slaves these roles would likely be treasured and they would be viewed very positively by followers of those gods. I don't think it's too far-fetched a notion for people to romanticise being a well-placed slave: many modern slaves who had high-ranking positions - say, a steward or a housekeeper in a plantation in the American South - valued their roles, were thankful for their place, and internalised a lot of racist and classist bullshit in the process.
It's also quite possible that very devout non-slaves may even choose to their own slavery. It's quite possible high-ranking members of society may even be rewarded more so for this decision: they may become priests or high priests, and are placed higher up the theocratic ranks. It could potentially grant favour on a noble house from a god.
The gaes is a weird issue because Mythal seems to value choice a lot, so putting someone under a compulsion seems contradictory? Perhaps then, rather than forcing her servants to act against their will and turning into slaves, the compulsion merely reminds them of the vows or promises they made, thus strengthening and reinforcing their will to endure and continue their task.
Lots of potential reasons for this include:
- Slavery being completely normalised in the Elvehen empire. Mythal may just not see ownership, as an idea, being a problem.
- Mythal perceiving herself as a decent owner: in societies with slaves owners often make a distinction between good/bad owners to justify owning other human beings. I reckon Mythal is smart enough to see this false dichotomy for what it is: she may likely not care as long as nobody's abused (i.e. see point #1).
- Flemeth is fairly practical, and puts her survival as priority, as shown by her actions in DA:O and DA2. Likely she knows that she'd be at a severe disadvantage in the pantheon if she doesn't own slaves too. She shares Morrigan's POV and some when it comes to putting survival first and not giving a **** when it's completely necessary (although is arguably far more subtle and devious about it).
- Following the above, Flemeth likely uses slaves who are devout worshippers and willing to submit. Attract more flies with honey, after all.
- Mythal may have changed her mind over the years, especially after the empire fell apart. She and Fen'Harel appear to be on good terms (even if the ambiguity of the scene may imply underhand tensions), likely meaning she may have shifted her view on slavery. Solas gives away in his dialogues with Sera that he knows firsthand how to take down power hierarchies via. revolutionary means: it's unlikely they'd be on seemingly good terms if she wasn't at least sympathetic. Solas is pretty upfront with most people he disagrees with, after all.
- Flemythal lacking concrete power meaning she has to rely on the decisions of others to 'nudge' history. Likely this means she has to appeal to them to encourage them to make the right choices. Probably by appealing to the idea that it is their choice to save the world, as well as their sense of duty, etc.
Also, from my dialogue with Flemythal, I always got the feeling she was more interested in the idea of fate than our characters' choices: 'Luck is another word for fate'. Maybe she's just BioWare's invisible mouthpiece for why retconning every important character death is necessary. Because Fate.
Retour en haut
