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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#103751
Niamaduir

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I've been reading comments (reddit, youtube) that have said Solas lied to the Inquisitor at the Well of Sorrows. Solas claims he said "I hope you find a new name" when he actually said "Malas amelin ne halam, Abelas" meaning "Your ---[blood] is finished, Abelas." In addition, when Solas said "Ar lasa mala revas" he literally says "I grant your freedom." I guess you could argue ancient elvish translates differently, but what he said to Abelas really doesn't match up. 

 

I think I'm finally going to just expect the worst possible outcome. Solas has lied, manipulated, gave partial truths, and hid his identity from the Inquisitor. How can we blindly trust that he's a good person? Maybe it's a good thing he broke up with the Inquistior. 

 

Or maybe I'm just going crazy waiting for another DLC. I should really stop reading/watching fan theories, but they're so interesting.

 

I keep coming back to this thread and you guys keep convincing me that maybe Solas really is "good." I just hope that you all are right. 

 

In trying to translate what Solas says to Abelas post Well events, I have found that the elvish I Am the One =/= I Am the One as sung by the bard. While I wrote this I found out via a tumblr post by David Gaider [http://fenxshiral.tu...on-i-am-the-one] that the elven I Am the One isn't even translatable because the writing team didn't even write it... 

 

Translation reasoning: 

Spoiler

 

From FenxShiral's Lexicon:

 

amelan n. keeper, protecter, guardian

 

You could toss them an ask or dig through thier achive of posts to see if they have tossed out a translation for that pharse

 

And I have to share the best birthday surprise ever:

Spoiler


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#103752
Cee

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And I have to share the best birthday surprise ever:

Spoiler

 

That is beautiful. :D And happy birthday!


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#103753
Thavie

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And I have to share the best birthday surprise ever:

Spoiler

I'm so glad you liked it! ^_^


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#103754
CapricornSun

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And I have to share the best birthday surprise ever:

Spoiler

 

Happy birthday! :D And that artwork is gorgeous!  :wub:


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#103755
Niamaduir

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I'm so glad you liked it! ^_^

 

I LOVE it, I had the worst day yesterday and finding this on my tumblr this morning was just perfect. I am truly at a loss to describe how it was just the right thing at the right time.


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#103756
Niamaduir

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On the topic of Vivienne and magic in Thedas. I made this point over in the "Does anyone like Anders?" thread and thought it had some bearing here with a few addendums:

 

Bioware has done a good job at developing the issue of magic being dangerous because of demons and blood magic that it is easy to forget that mages are people who are being reviled, mistreated, and segregated because they have been born different. It is especially hard for those who have grown up within this system. The Chantry is, in fact, a normative religion based on how evil and sinful magic is and how dangerous. Magic could even be equated to Original Sin if you like, going off its parallels to Christianity. The Chantry would have to undergo some radical changes to revise this position. Something that Mother Giselle hints at in her conversations with the Inquisitor.

 

What I find interesting about Vivienne position is that she assumes that if mages are given freedom, that witch hunts and indiscriminate lynching of mages are the only possible outcomes. There are examples within the game that do support this as a possibility, but there are examples that illustrate the future for free mages would probably be more nuanced than she thinks.

 

Whenever you complicate an issue such as widespread bigotry and discrimination with a power such as magic (or mutant powers if I can be indulged to make such a comparison) you end up making the issue even more complex. It forces you not only to contemplate the nature of human difference, but also human nature itself. Essentially, you have two questions to answer: do you believe that people, regardless of the circumstances of their birth deserve to have the same rights and freedoms as the rest of humanity? and, do you believe that people can be responsible with a power that has the potential to cause great devastation, destruction and pain if abused? Or to put it another way, when by your very nature you are a living weapon, do you deserve to be free, or must you be heavily regulated and/or imprisoned because you "MIGHT" be tempted to abuse your abilities?

 

For Vivienne, the answer is no. Magic is too dangerous of a tool. For Solas, the answer is yes because magic is a tool and it is the actions and morality of the mage that turn that tool to good or evil. 

 

Because I am horrible for looking at the end of a book, I have looked at the Epilogue for the Divine Election and am trying to work towards Leliana as Divine, because I think she has the potential to set in motion the changes the Chantry requires to help end the black and white dichotomies that exist around magic and mages.


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#103757
BoscoBread

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on topic:

 

/snip

 

All this beautiful fan art is making me want to learn how to draw again.

Just a friendly reminder to source all art.  Mostly so people can reblog and the artist gets appropriate credit - or if it's yours you can get some well deserved attention!

 

Thanks!!


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#103758
RynJ

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I've been reading comments (reddit, youtube) that have said Solas lied to the Inquisitor at the Well of Sorrows. Solas claims he said "I hope you find a new name" when he actually said "Malas amelin ne halam, Abelas" meaning "Your ---[blood] is finished, Abelas." In addition, when Solas said "Ar lasa mala revas" he literally says "I grant your freedom." I guess you could argue ancient elvish translates differently, but what he said to Abelas really doesn't match up. 

 

I think I'm finally going to just expect the worst possible outcome. Solas has lied, manipulated, gave partial truths, and hid his identity from the Inquisitor. How can we blindly trust that he's a good person? Maybe it's a good thing he broke up with the Inquistior. 

 

Or maybe I'm just going crazy waiting for another DLC. I should really stop reading/watching fan theories, but they're so interesting.

 

I keep coming back to this thread and you guys keep convincing me that maybe Solas really is "good." I just hope that you all are right. 

 

In trying to translate what Solas says to Abelas post Well events, I have found that the elvish I Am the One =/= I Am the One as sung by the bard. While I wrote this I found out via a tumblr post by David Gaider [http://fenxshiral.tu...on-i-am-the-one] that the elven I Am the One isn't even translatable because the writing team didn't even write it... 

 

Translation reasoning: 

Spoiler

 

It feels like you can never trust any translation of elvish but canon. The language seems to be full of words with double meanings or that mean different things when connected in a sentence. What he said to Abelas may not be exactly what he claimed but that doesn't mean it was some weird threat. 

 

Besides, they aren't going to go out of their way to make us care about, emphasize grey morality for and build up tragedy for an evil character. And I highly doubt they're going to throw everything we learned about him and his personality in DAI away and reveal Solas as actually evil. That's just not good writing, honestly.


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#103759
Cee

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Right, what he said to Abelas and what he says to you seem like nuanced and more complex versions with similar enough meaning (and yet the additional meaning given the greater meta ancient elfy/god knowledge he has of Abelas' situation).

 

Remember that lin means blood and it's also used in terms like vallaslin ("blood writing") so it's not some automatically sinister thing. Abelas has been bound to service. He gave up his old name (the codex you can find implies that taking up the name of Sorrow was something he did after Mythal's murder) and was marked by vallaslin in his pledged service. Solas also knows that hey, Mythal is actually still around.

 

Well, at that point, anyway. ;)



#103760
Sable Rhapsody

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Besides, they aren't going to go out of their way to make us care about, emphasize grey morality for and build up tragedy for an evil character. And I highly doubt they're going to throw everything we learned about him and his personality in DAI away and reveal Solas as actually evil. That's just not good writing, honestly.

 

Saying Solas was evil would be like saying Snape was evil all along in the Harry Potter series.  Kind of turns the whole character into a waste of time  :rolleyes: I think it's fairly safe to say that his writer doesn't wanna do that.

 

Also, I think all the stuff about Solas lying to the PC and manipulating the Inquisition (and by extension being a bad dude) smacks a bit of PC-centered morality.  It's perfectly ok for the PC to lie and manipulate to get an "optimal" story outcome.  It's perfectly ok for the PC to do morally questionable things (like the Dark Ritual) to ensure his/her own survival and happiness. But as soon as an NPC breathes funny, everyone gets all up in arms about it.  Same thing with Blackwall.


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#103761
BoscoBread

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It feels like you can never trust any translation of elvish but canon. The language seems to be full of words with double meanings or that mean different things when connected in a sentence. What he said to Abelas may not be exactly what he claimed but that doesn't mean it was some weird threat. 

 

Besides, they aren't going to go out of their way to make us care about, emphasize grey morality for and build up tragedy for an evil character. And I highly doubt they're going to throw everything we learned about him and his personality in DAI away and reveal Solas as actually evil. That's just not good writing, honestly.

PW has said he's not very good at writing mustache twirling villains.  Most of his "baddies" kind of hang out in the moral grey zone.   So like full on baddies.  Most people - not just Bioware -  seem actually really bad at writing really really compelling EVIL characters. There are only a few that I can think of in video games that I actually enjoy. 

 

Regardless, I still would maintain that Solas probably did some really awful stuff in his past.  He wouldn't beat himself up over nothing. It was likely pretty horrendous - possibly justified or understandable in a certain light - but something not great.  Which I hope. I actually enjoy that.  There were a few quests in The Witcher that I was like 'welp...this makes me feel shitty and there are no good options here.' which is good thing, methinks. 


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#103762
Sable Rhapsody

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PW has said he's not very good at writing mustache twirling villains.  Most of his "baddies" kind of hang out in the moral grey zone.   So like full on baddies.  Most people - not just Bioware -  seem actually really bad at writing really really compelling EVIL characters. There are only a few that I can think of in video games that I actually enjoy. 

 

Sun Li.  Jon Irenicus.  I miss them.  BioWare hit the nail on the head with the two of them, and their games have IMO been in a villain dry spell since then.


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#103763
RynJ

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PW has said he's not very good at writing mustache twirling villains.  Most of his "baddies" kind of hang out in the moral grey zone.   So like full on baddies.  Most people - not just Bioware -  seem actually really bad at writing really really compelling EVIL characters. There are only a few that I can think of in video games that I actually enjoy. 

 

Regardless, I still would maintain that Solas probably did some really awful stuff in his past.  He wouldn't beat himself up over nothing. It was likely pretty horrendous - possibly justified or understandable in a certain light - but something not great.  Which I hope. I actually enjoy that.  There were a few quests in The Witcher that I was like 'welp...this makes me feel shitty and there are no good options here.' which is good thing, methinks. 

 

I don't know. Considering what we've learned about the Gods, Solas may have been in the right to try to do something about them if he did. Just because he regrets it doesn't mean it was evil or necessarily unnecessary. He regrets it because it ended up making things worse and he might feel bad about locking them away in general based on Cole's endgame conversation with him.

 

Now I think what he might be planning to do now will probably be very harmful in one way or another. At least to those living in modern Thedas.


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#103764
BoscoBread

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I don't know. Considering what we've learned about the Gods, Solas may have been in the right to try to do something about them if he did. Just because he regrets it doesn't mean it was evil or necessarily unnecessary. He regrets it because it ended up making things worse and he might feel bad about locking them away in general based on Cole's endgame conversation with him.

 

Now I think what he might be planning to do now will probably be very harmful in one way or another. At least to those living in modern Thedas.

I don't know. There are hints that he did things that were sort of unsavory prior to the big thing.  Again, not EVIl - logical - and decisions he likely made with forethought.    Again, likely necessary but not good.  I'm not a robot!  I can still make a sour face and be a little bit unsettled by these things- FOR EXAMPLE like killing an entire town that was feeding its babies to witches in the witcher via demon horse that i set free(SHRUG).   but why the town did it was actually sort of understandable because they needed food and protection in a very harsh world.  So sacrafice the few for the many. etc. etc.  That's what I see Solas doing minus the child killing.  I think  a lot of people died because of what he did.  It's up to the player if that's a problem.  I think he knew it was going to be bad - not as bad as it turned out but bad.  For you, obviousy this isn't an issue. But isn't for me either!  Again, bring on saxual revolutionary Solas, I say!!


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#103765
Gwyvian

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On the Vivienne subject:

 

Let us not forget the Rivaini Seers! They are not alone in representing a harmonious coexistence between magic-users and non-mages in Thedas, but they are definitely a good model which proves that freedom in magical practice is not doomed to follow the footsteps of Tevinter. As I mentioned earlier, I think there is something to be said for the fact that Tevinter actually uses the same Chantry model, if in a twisted form, they cannot escape the axis if they only gravitate from one polarity to the other, mirroring the other Chantry almost to perfection. The male Divine, the templars who are more like gang enforcers than a policing force, circles that work in the reverse, etc.

 

I also had a revelation regarding Tevinter mages: I think it also significant that a lot of their magic centered around the worship of the Old Gods. Historically speaking, this could be the point where magic and the use of magic began to be focused on what we consider corrupt and dangerous paths, facets of which remain alive today despite their "conversion" back to the worship of the Maker. Perhaps this can be attributed to why Tevinter is exemplary of the kind of magic that is an evil that must be contained, according to Chantry beliefs.

 

All in all, I think Vivienne is really just not in a position to truly judge whether or not magic would be a destructive force if allowed to run free, so to speak, because she is incapable of thinking outside of the context she was raised in and, as pointed out, her personal experience. As Solas says, the Fade adapts to the mind of whoever comes into contact with it, i.e. if Vivienne was taught during her entire life that demons lurk in the Fade waiting to consume unwary children (and even were she not a mage, in a land ruled by the Chantry, every single child is raised according to this belief), then it is inevitable that her encounters with the Fade would result in potential disaster/possession.

 

As to her idea that lynch mobs and the like are the inexorable result of letting mages run free, I have no doubt in my mind that such things would occur, at least in the beginning. It's been centuries since the last time the people of Ferelden, Orlais and the Free Marches have had to be in direct contact with magic wielders, so naturally both sides would be incredibly inept at coexisting. The more dangerous element of this volatile mix is the fact that mages are deliberately kept at an immature level - they have become incapable of defending themselves on many levels, despite the power they wield, which is dangerous since the moment the common folk turn on them, they have little other choice as they see it than to lash out with the power they possess, not to mention that they still have very unfortunate belief systems regarding the Fade and magic in general, which means abominations will run rampant. However, I do have some faith in them - if they stick together and take preventive measures, perhaps communicate with those mages who are free (e.g. Grey Warden mages), then they have a chance to start learning about both themselves and the world. Vivienne cannot see this, however, and she has her reasons for not believing.

 

All in all, I find it no accident that a former Grey Warden pushed for mage freedom and won in a sense, nor do I find it an accident that they landed in the fire after clambering out of the kettle - yet the Inquisition has the ability to represent a new accord with mages that Thedas has not really seen many strong examples of before, they have a chance to remake people's opinions of them and to revise what they thought they knew about the world, too. Plus, by their participation in closing the Breach, they have truly become citizens of the rest of the world and I think that at least a portion of the common folk will remember that. I saw signs of this right at the start in Cassandra's comments: not only her reaction to the mage pestering her, which accepted their new role as equals (if that is the choice you made, of course), but also in what she said about them being equals now, she chastises the mage and tells him to act like it. It is obviously different and surprisingly uncomfortable for the mages, yet they do get the acknowledgment they sought - the burdens of freedom, as it were. That brief conversation symbolized this transformation for me in many ways.


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#103766
RynJ

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I don't know. There are hints that he did things that were sort of unsavory prior to the big thing.  Again, not EVIl - logical - and decisions he likely made with forethought.    Again, likely necessary but not good.  I'm not a robot!  I can still make a sour face and be a little bit unsettled by these things- FOR EXAMPLE like killing an entire town that was feeding its babies to witches in the witcher via demon horse that i set free(SHRUG).   but why the town did it was actually sort of understandable because they needed food and protection in a very harsh world.  So sacrafice the few for the many. etc. etc.  That's what I see Solas doing minus the child killing.  I think  a lot of people died because of what he did.  It's up to the player if that's a problem.  I think he knew it was going to be bad - not as bad as it turned out but bad.  For you, obviousy this isn't an issue. But isn't for me either!  Again, bring on saxual revolutionary Solas, I say!!

 

Eh, I didn't get the impression he thought it would turn out super badly. I think he was hoping things would be better, but they weren't at all. Maybe he did just lock the elven gods away because something was wrong with them. I suppose you can say subsequent deaths were his fault but I can't find much fault or much that's unsavory in sealing away super powerful beings that were hurting others and oppressing.

 

I think waking up to a worse world is what sparked Solas' serious tragedy, not the initial actions themselves though he seems to regret that now too. Not that we really know anything about what happened. Yet. Wolf Hunt DLC, let's go! It's likely there's more to it than meets the eye but I don't see so much hints at Solas doing horrible things in the past so much as him planning to do not so great things in the future.



#103767
S.W.

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I don't know. There are hints that he did things that were sort of unsavory prior to the big thing. Again, not EVIl - logical - and decisions he likely made with forethought. Again, likely necessary but not good. I'm not a robot! I can still make a sour face and be a little bit unsettled by these things- FOR EXAMPLE like killing an entire town that was feeding its babies to witches in the witcher via demon horse that i set free(SHRUG). but why the town did it was actually sort of understandable because they needed food and protection in a very harsh world. So sacrafice the few for the many. etc. etc. That's what I see Solas doing minus the child killing. I think a lot of people died because of what he did. It's up to the player if that's a problem. I think he knew it was going to be bad - not as bad as it turned out but bad. For you, obviousy this isn't an issue. But isn't for me either! Again, bring on saxual revolutionary Solas, I say!!


At a guess, I imagine it's almost definitely to do with a rebellion going wrong. I mean, riots/rebellions/attempted-revolutions (these words are all so loaded politically) have been a constant since we started having states and hierarchies regardless of whether it's been done by slaves, serfs, or peasants. And for the most part they've all been crushed brutally, with lots of lives lost. It's only been quite recent thing that the idea of a revolution being successful is *possible* or even looked upon positively, as a good development.
 
Even then, there will always be costs. Sometimes revolutions will be nearly bloodless (Russia in 1917, interestingly, is an example of this), other times they're long, drawn out, involve lots of people sacrificing themselves in hope of history being kinder to them. People will die. If you commit yourself to the idea of revolution seriously, you usually have to admit that violence is sometimes, in certain situations, necessary. And often things - even if they go smoothly in the short-term - will **** up later on. Counter-revolutionary forces may reorganise and attempt to thwart your success (for instance: first French revolution). You'll be faced with difficult choices - do you let traitors go, risking everything, or purge them, consolidating your power? In cases where people's opinions and thoughts about politics aren't in sync - for instance, in the case of the Paris commune, the Parisian industrial workers massively supported it, whereas most of rural France thought they were ruthless savages - you'll be facing an uphill battle. Trying to press the reset button and reshape society into a completely new form of society when there's been no examples of how to do it before you is not going to be easy, and it's made even harder when people disagree whether it's even required.
 
My point being, in all this, if you're committed to the idea of revolution being necessary for true freedom - which is highly probable of Solas - chances are there will be almost something to regret if you're successful. There will be costs. Most revolutionaries, in the long run, believe that if you can eliminate structures like slavery and poverty forever, that cost is justified.
 
Given that we're lead to believe Solas was almost definitely not successful, it almost definitely cost a lot of ****** lives, as well as more long-term things like the veil being created, immortality being lost, the elven empire in its entirety being lost to history (having no understanding of history of a society which had written records is genuinely quite astonishing. One wonders if there's no half-decent archaeologists in Thedas, given that ancient elven ruins are practically everywhere in game). Also, I have a hunch the elves also might have something to do with the blight and not Tevinter - like with most of Tevinter, they took from the elves a little too closely, which would be a horrible thing hanging over your shoulders.
 

Saying Solas was evil would be like saying Snape was evil all along in the Harry Potter series.  Kind of turns the whole character into a waste of time  :rolleyes: I think it's fairly safe to say that his writer doesn't wanna do that.
 
Also, I think all the stuff about Solas lying to the PC and manipulating the Inquisition (and by extension being a bad dude) smacks a bit of PC-centered morality.  It's perfectly ok for the PC to lie and manipulate to get an "optimal" story outcome.  It's perfectly ok for the PC to do morally questionable things (like the Dark Ritual) to ensure his/her own survival and happiness. But as soon as an NPC breathes funny, everyone gets all up in arms about it.  Same thing with Blackwall.

 
Honestly, I reckon had Solas been a bit more shady during the events of the game, he'd have practically no fans after the post-epilogue reveal. He has a lot of good traits mixed in - for instance, he's pretty selfless, compassionate, will go out of his way to help, is pretty smart, knows what he's doing, has no time for bullshit, and for the most part will be sincere and honest when he can etc. etc. If he'd been more manipulative and ready to lie, I reckon the fandom would completely turn on him and us solas defenders would be in the minority.
 
The romance helps, a bit, because again he's sincere and honest in that to the core, and breaks it off because he's completely aware that he's got bigger commitments and doesn't want to string the Inquisitor along. That's a massive strength of moral character there - the only thing going against him is that he doesn't reveal why (although crucially he doesn't try to string you up in a web of lies), and that it's a bit of a dick move to do it before the final battle, when the Inquisitor needs to have it together the most (and generally, you don't have it together after a break up).


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#103768
RoraM

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I've been reading comments (reddit, youtube) that have said Solas lied to the Inquisitor at the Well of Sorrows. Solas claims he said "I hope you find a new name" when he actually said "Malas amelin ne halam, Abelas" meaning "Your ---[blood] is finished, Abelas." 

 

I don't believe that is a correct translation.  It must be emphasized that Project Elvhen by fenxshiral, by his own admission, is NOT canon and is equivalent to fan fiction.  Elvhen, while in reality and by David Gaider's own statements is a cypher, in-game it is intended to be nuanced in meaning.  Assuming "amelin" has something to do with blood just because it has "lin" in it is as ridiculous as saying "assassination" has something do with the butt because it has the word "ass" in it twice.


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#103769
Vorathrad

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that it's a bit of a dick move to do it before the final battle, when the Inquisitor needs to have it together the most (and generally, you don't have it together after a break up).


This has been bothering me since I played the romance, it definitely is the worst timing ever. Lavellan has to go to the final fight with Corypheus with a broken heart... not the best frame of mind. I like to think that Solas facepalms at himself a lot after the breakup.
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#103770
Caddius

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This has been bothering me since I played the romance, it definitely is the worst timing ever. Lavellan has to go to the final fight with Corypheus with a broken heart... not the best frame of mind. I like to think that Solas facepalms at himself a lot after the breakup.

 

This has been bothering me since I played the romance, it definitely is the worst timing ever. Lavellan has to go to the final fight with Corypheus with a broken heart... not the best frame of mind. I like to think that Solas facepalms at himself a lot after the breakup.

There's also the 'I AM THE SCOURGE OF THE CREATORS HEAR ME ROAR' approach to handling a break-up, though. :D


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#103771
MayriyaNoori

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You know what breaks my heart about the whole break up thing?

 

The break up happens in Crestwood......so this means that Solas and Lavellan probably spent a few days packing and preparing.....then traveling out there. Depending on travel conditions it must have taken them at least a week to get to Crestwood. It was probably the first time that they really had true alone time together away from the Inquisition as a couple.

 

And then Lavellan had to travel back. Alone. At least I would assume alone.

 

That is just depressing.


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#103772
MoonDrummer

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This isn't even slightly on topic, but I just watched Game of Thrones, this sums up my feelings on that episode... 

giphy.gif


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#103773
BoscoBread

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This isn't even slightly on topic, but I just watched Game of Thrones, this sums up my feelings on that episode... 

giphy.gif

I'm done with the show. Done.  They ruined Stannis.  He's ruined for the show. at least we have book Stannis. WHO WOULD HAVE NEVER DONE THAT. 


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#103774
Vorathrad

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There's also the 'I AM THE SCOURGE OF THE CREATORS HEAR ME ROAR' approach to handling a break-up, though. :D

  

True. Poor Cory didn't know who she was thinking about while melting his face :D

You know what breaks my heart about the whole break up thing?
 
The break up happens in Crestwood......so this means that Solas and Lavellan probably spent a few days packing and preparing.....then traveling out there. Depending on travel conditions it must have taken them at least a week to get to Crestwood. It was probably the first time that they really had true alone time together away from the Inquisition as a couple.
 
And then Lavellan had to travel back. Alone. At least I would assume alone.
 
That is just depressing.

It was discussed some time ago that maybe the scene took place in the Fade. It's certainly less depressing than Solas going all "Ok thx bye" and poor Lavellan riding by herself for a whole week. Poor soul, the first one that asked "So how was your trip?" when she got to Skyhold.

#103775
MoonDrummer

MoonDrummer
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I'm done with the show. Done.  They ruined Stannis.  He's ruined for the show. at least we have book Stannis. WHO WOULD HAVE NEVER DONE THAT. 

To be fair, they had been doing a really poor job with Stannis since season 2, I should have known something bad was going to happen when he started being awesome all of a sudden. 

 

I think he will be killed off soon, which is worrying because it was only the Stannis and Jon scenes that were any good in this season. 

 

Edit: Not even just the Stannis bit, there are loads of things that annoyed me.

Spoiler
 


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