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[Cee]

There are other ways to deal with or punish someone aside from killing them. Telling Leliana now was the time for ideals felt natural, and I think my Lavellan executed one person and wound up triggering a fight with Florianne that wound up killing her but otherwise was a merciful judge.

 

Leliana has been through the full range. I did NOT harden her in Origins so Inquisition Leliana was just...not what I had hoped or expected (even though she has seen many things in the interim). In fact, having Leliana softened and named Divine was one of my favorite outcomes of the game. All made blind, had no idea those decisions had any impact, but that outcome made me so happy.

 

As for the Solas backstory, she did begin to check into it but circumstances and Solas' invaluable assistance (and the hobo apostate unassuming nature), plus all of the events happening pushed it to the background. It's NOT a good thing to overlook but sometimes you have to assess things in priority order. She clearly regrets the oversight by the end, and in my headcanon, she's a good friend to my Lavellan and searches extra because she feels bad, even though both know nothing is likely to turn up just yet.

[NeverlandHunter]

The fact that softening her included, "Well, you shouldn't kill him, even though he's turned traitor," and "It wasn't a mistake to pull back your men and not have them do their job of scouting,". (Granted, I'm not sure what use the scouts would have been able to do, it's unclear how far away they were and how much extra time could have been bought.) There's a fine line between being compassionate but pragmatic and being a bit too trigger-happy. It's interesting that if you ask Varric why he didn't apply for spymaster, he points out that he gets far too attached to his spies, unlike Leliana. And yet...

Completely agree! DA:I Leliana might come off as cold and stoic but she's a... softie! It does honestly really annoy me though. In my first play through I chose to stay silent during her judgement. It was her agent, her traitor, here I am a Dalish elf new to this whole scene and I'm supposed to be telling Leliana how to deal with her situation! She's been doing this for like 20 years! And I don't disagree with her judgement call. She's the advisor. Why am I acting like I know anything about the whole situation! And then it makes me look like a hypocrite later when I'm judging on the throne and quickly taking care of traitors. I mean, there had to be a better way to soften her. Something more subtle that made more story sense. Maybe she had a crisis of faith and the Inquisitor could comfort her or tell her the world is cruel and the Maker's gone so suck it up. Or your Inquisitor could of told her to look tothe HoF for inspiration and depending on their choices...that's probably a little too much to ask. But still! I think softened Divine Leliana is the best choice but I hate that first softening! At least the post Haven makes sense for my Lavellan-- she doesn't want to crack a few eggs and she sees people as individual not an army. But that first choice, uh, I feel like I'm over stepping my bounds.

[Cee]

  But that first choice, uh, I feel like I'm over stepping my bounds.

 

This is, for me, the first time my Lavellan feels like she must actually speak up. Even though everything is strange and Leliana kind of scares her at that point. Speaking up scares her too, but times are very tense and there's a place for regard and mercy, especially when things are otherwise tense, violent, and troubled.

[NeverlandHunter]

There are other ways to deal with or punish someone aside from killing them. Telling Leliana now was the time for ideals felt natural, and I think my Lavellan executed one person and wound up triggering a fight with Florianne that wound up killing her but otherwise was a merciful judge.
 
Leliana has been through the full range. I did NOT harden her in Origins so Inquisition Leliana was just...not what I had hoped or expected (even though she has seen many things in the interim). In fact, having Leliana softened and named Divine was one of my favorite outcomes of the game. All made blind, had no idea those decisions had any impact, but that outcome made me so happy.
 
As for the Solas backstory, she did begin to check into it but circumstances and Solas' invaluable assistance (and the hobo apostate unassuming nature), plus all of the events happening pushed it to the background. It's NOT a good thing to overlook but sometimes you have to assess things in priority order. She clearly regrets the oversight by the end, and in my headcanon, she's a good friend to my Lavellan and searches extra because she feels bad, even though both know nothing is likely to turn up just yet.

I understand your point Cee. Softened Divine Leliana is my favorite outcome too, at least for my Dalish mage. Bu, my point was that she was not the best, most unbiased spymaster and some of her choices verge on incompetence. I've argued this with somebody else before, but the takeaway is that she was too emotionally involved. Had another spymaster been involved they would of been skeptical about a apostate mage in the first place. Add that with convenient arrival, knowledge, abilities and a vague backstory and you have all matters of suspicious. And Solas was a companion, possibly a friend and advisor, possibly a romance to the Inquisitor. He should of been a priority.

[Caddius]

I understand your point Cee. Softened Divine Leliana is my favorite outcome too, at least for my Dalish mage. Bu, my point was that she was not the best, most unbiased spymaster and some of her choices verge on incompetence. I've argued this with somebody else before, but the takeaway is that she was too emotionally involved. Had another spymaster been involved they would of been skeptical about a apostate mage in the first place. Add that with convenient arrival, knowledge, abilities and a vague backstory and you have all matters of suspicious. And Solas was a companion, possibly a friend and advisor, possibly a romance to the Inquisitor. He should of been a priority.

To Leliana's credit, she did have two agents consistently checking out Solas's backstory. It's just that one small, ancient, ruined village is hard to find in all of Thedas. (Going off recent comments, apparently it took the poor blighters 3 years. That's dedication to vetting an ally.  )

What confuses me about Leliana is that she seems to know, or at least suspect, something about Blackwall. I mean, the Codex entry that shows he's lying about being in Ferelden is in her office first time you get to Skyhold, and there's that significant pause, "He is...not what I expected." When Blackwall is doing his damndest to act like the Wardens she has met. 

And I'm of the opinion that the Herald has no place interfering with Leliana's spy network when they've only just joined the Inquisition and have no idea what's going on except that one of her spies turned traitor and killed another of her spies. (Admittedly, it's pretty common for spies to turn everything living into an asset, or so I've heard.) I guess the writing wasn't quite detailed enough there for my tastes. 

[NeverlandHunter]

This is, for me, the first time my Lavellan feels like she must actually speak up. Even though everything is strange and Leliana kind of scares her at that point. Speaking up scares her too, but times are very tense and there's a place for regard and mercy, especially when things are otherwise tense, violent, and troubled.

There is a time and place for mercy. I just don't think that was it. And it would of been different if my Lavellan was judging the situation. She would of had more context, more options to deal with it. But it wasn't it was Leliana's call for her traitor. Your Herald just happened to be easy dropping and caught a few snippets of a situation they don't really know much about. Again, she's been doing this for 20 yearsish and this is war and responsibility over many lives. I honestly understand where you're coming from. My Lavellan doesn't believe in the "greater good" or cracking eggs to make an omelet, but that's why she needs Leliana-- to be her shadow, or her left hand.

[drosophila]

I don't think it would be that much of an issue for the Inquisition to get a new spymaster. Leliana promises to find someone capable to replace her before she leaves and she might even get someone better than she was. Leliana was incredibly biased as a spymaster. She was biased towards th Wardens (which is how your Inquisitor was left in the dark about Blackwall). She's biased towards mages (I think another spymaster would of though "apostate! I should check into his backstory!"). And as much as I like softening her, so I comfort her post Haven, it was a HUGE mistake for her to pull her scouts back. She is a little to compassionate for a spymaster. I love Leliana, but I think she was the Inquisition's spymaster because she was a) available and already involved with the Inquisition and because she had personal stakes in the game. Just my opinion though
 

 

I didn't soften her exactly for the above reasons - why would the Inquisition need a soft spymaster? It only makes sense is she is to become Divine. 

 

There may be someone out there in Thedas who would be a better spymaster, but out of the characters already present in DAI, I thought she was the most effective. She was willing to do whatever it is to get the job done, and I liked the solutions she proposed to war table missions, especially compared to Cullen's "brute force" and Josephine's naiveté.

 

I think her fail to uncover Solas spoke more for just how cunning he can be rather than how bad she is at her job. Now, Solas would be the perfect spymaster, but alas...

[NeverlandHunter]

To Leliana's credit, she did have two agents consistently checking out Solas's backstory. It's just that one small, ancient, ruined village is hard to find in all of Thedas. (Going off recent comments, apparently it took the poor blighters 3 years. That's dedication to vetting an ally.  )
What confuses me about Leliana is that she seems to know, or at least suspect, something about Blackwall. I mean, the Codex entry that shows he's lying about being in Ferelden is in her office first time you get to Skyhold, and there's that significant pause, "He is...not what I expected." When Blackwall is doing his damndest to act like the Wardens she has met. 
And I'm of the opinion that the Herald has no place interfering with Leliana's spy network when they've only just joined the Inquisition and have no idea what's going on except that one of her spies turned traitor and killed another of her spies. (Admittedly, it's pretty common for spies to turn everything living into an asset, or so I've heard.) I guess the writing wasn't quite detailed enough there for my tastes. 

Eeeeh, make excuses for Solas not being thoroughly checked out, sure. But nothing excuses what happened with Blackwall. My takeaway from the situation was she knew who Blackwall really was from a very early point, but didn't say anything for her fondness of Wardens and a belief in him earning a second chance. She, your advisor, left you completely in the dark about your companion/possible friend/possible lover because she wanted to give Blackwall a second chance. -.- If I had romanced Blackwall I would hate her!

[Sah291]

This is, for me, the first time my Lavellan feels like she must actually speak up. Even though everything is strange and Leliana kind of scares her at that point. Speaking up scares her too, but times are very tense and there's a place for regard and mercy, especially when things are otherwise tense, violent, and troubled.

 

I agree. My first play through, I stayed silent for the same reason...scared Dalish elf in a strange situation, over stepping bounds, etc. It was my first play through so I was still figuring out my character and I didn't know it was going to end up hardening Leliana. Anyway, second time through, I jumped in and stopped her. It happens early in the game. I figured, as a Dalish elf, she's an outsider and isn't really one of them (yet)...and having just been their prisoner herself, her first instinct was to sympathize with the "traitor". So last thing she wants is to encourage that line of thinking, when they could theoretically still turn on her, so she speaks up. Also since I was playing a mage, I figured as clan's first, her instinct to try and mediate and be diplomatic just came out at that point. Narratively, intervening in that situation plants the seeds for the PC to lead eventually, even if they aren't in that position yet.

[NeverlandHunter]

I didn't soften her exactly for the above reasons - why would the Inquisition need a soft spymaster? It only makes sense is she is to become Divine. 
 
There may be someone out there in Thedas who would be a better spymaster, but out of the characters already present in DAI, I thought she was the most effective. She was willing to do whatever it is to get the job done, and I liked the solutions she proposed to war table missions, especially compared to Cullen's "brute force" and Josephine's naiveté.
 
I think her fail to uncover Solas spoke more for just how cunning he can be rather than how bad she is at her job. Now, Solas would be the perfect spymaster, but alas...

Lol. Much disagreement drosophilia. I don't think Solas was all that good at covering his tracks. I think he was very suspicious and not all that great a liar. But don't tale it from me, I believe Blackwall and IB both were catching on to him. And they aren't, you know, the spymaster X). Honestly out of the companions I think IB would make the best one. Maybe with help from Varric.

[Caddius]

I think the reason Leliana sighs and goes along with it if the Herald interferes is that she recognizes that 'PC attitude' and realizes they're going to end up in charge no matter what. 

[midnight tea]

I think the reason of softening Leliana is supposed to make a bigger point - I mean, one of the reasons why hings in Thedas went awry is precisely because most people in power treat their subjects as expendable tools of war. Of course, sometimes there's no choice - some sacrifices have to be made, but we may have to ask ourselves a question where do we step on a slippery slope to eventually start treating people like nothing. I think it's one of te bigger points the story's trying to make, not just in case of Leliana.

 

Let's not forget after all that Leliana's first solution to the problem with traitor is "kill him" (same with sister Natalie), even though they were supposedly friends once - while Inquisitors have option to point out that she's quick to make that decision while he may still have useful information - and with so many things happening in shadows, those information may be crucial (would be nice if we did get at least a war table out of this one though...). 

[drosophila]

Eeeeh, make excuses for Solas not being thoroughly checked out, sure. But nothing excuses what happened with Blackwall. My takeaway from the situation was she knew who Blackwall really was from a very early point, but didn't say anything for her fondness of Wardens and a belief in him earning a second chance. She, your advisor, left you completely in the dark about your companion/possible friend/possible lover because she wanted to give Blackwall a second chance. -.- If I had romanced Blackwall I would hate her!

 

That she didn't say anything because she's fond of Wardens was Cullen's explanation. She could've just as easily thought, "Sure, this guy's secretly a murderer, but why do we care, he's doing good work for us now. Let's just keep him on watch but not interfere." And that would've worked out perfectly fine if Blackwall didn't experience a sudden surge of conscience.

 

Look at the other companions: we have a Ben Hassrath spy, Sera with her Red Jennies, Varric with his Kirkwall past. The Inquisition's already not particularly picky about who they recruit. 

[BoscoBread]

To Leliana's credit, she did have two agents consistently checking out Solas's backstory. It's just that one small, ancient, ruined village is hard to find in all of Thedas. (Going off recent comments, apparently it took the poor blighters 3 years. That's dedication to vetting an ally.  )

What confuses me about Leliana is that she seems to know, or at least suspect, something about Blackwall. I mean, the Codex entry that shows he's lying about being in Ferelden is in her office first time you get to Skyhold, and there's that significant pause, "He is...not what I expected." When Blackwall is doing his damndest to act like the Wardens she has met. 

And I'm of the opinion that the Herald has no place interfering with Leliana's spy network when they've only just joined the Inquisition and have no idea what's going on except that one of her spies turned traitor and killed another of her spies. (Admittedly, it's pretty common for spies to turn everything living into an asset, or so I've heard.) I guess the writing wasn't quite detailed enough there for my tastes. 

I think she didn't care. Like she checked to see if he would be a direct threat to their mission and then that was enough - he wouldn't be.  At that time, Leiliana was pretty much "whatever the cost to get it done".   Both Solas and Blackwall she was like 'they seem harmless enough for now and we need them'.  Corypheus was way more pressing. Frankly, she would probably defend her decision even AFTER finding out what he was.   She would likely not apologize for it, nor should she.  I would have done the same thing.  Solas was the only person to know what was up with the Fade.  Blackwall is a good fighter. 

 

Why waste good resources?  ****, I would have recruited the blighted magister if I could. 

[Sah291]

Lol. Much disagreement drosophilia. I don't think Solas was all that good at covering his tracks. I think he was very suspicious and not all that great a liar. But don't tale it from me, I believe Blackwall and IB both were catching on to him. And they aren't, you know, the spymaster X). Honestly out of the companions I think IB would make the best one. Maybe with help from Varric.

 

I think everyone is starting to catch on to him by the end the game. Another big reason why he needs to leave, and especially why he was right not to tell romanced Lavellan the whole truth, since it was only a matter of time. They would next be wondering how much she knew all along. So he's dangerous to her, and her role as head of the Inquisition, by that point. 

[NeverlandHunter]

That she didn't say anything because she's fond of Wardens was Cullen's explanation. She could've just as easily thought, "Sure, this guy's secretly a murderer, but why do we care, he's doing good work for us now. Let's just keep him on watch but not interfere." And that would've worked out perfectly fine if Blackwall didn't experience a sudden surge of conscience.
 
Look at the other companions: we have a Ben Hassrath spy, Sera with her Red Jennies, Varric with his Kirkwall past. The Inquisition's already not particularly picky about who they recruit.

The difference being, you knew about all the others. Leliana could have told you and let you decide. She should have told you and let you decide. You were in charge. You shared a campfire with him, heck you might of shared a bed--- or er hay bale.

[drosophila]

Lol. Much disagreement drosophilia. I don't think Solas was all that good at covering his tracks. I think he was very suspicious and not all that great a liar. But don't tale it from me, I believe Blackwall and IB both were catching on to him. And they aren't, you know, the spymaster X). Honestly out of the companions I think IB would make the best one. Maybe with help from Varric.

 

I really can't argue about how good he was, since the first time I played through, I was completely new to Thedas. All the lore and backstory were somewhat overwhelming, so I took everyone at face value and was rewarded by the most overwhelming feeling of shock and betrayal I've ever experienced from a fictional story. 

 

The second time around I saw all the little slips he makes along the way, but those are much easier to see retroactively. 

 

I guess my point is, you might be right, I don't know. 

[Illyria]

I got curious and went looking at DAI mods. If I installed this one, Cullen would have some competition with Blackwall for my Trevellyan.  Wow... Blackwall is a good looking guy without all that hair covering his face.

 

http://www.nexusmods...tion/mods/620/?

 

I normally don't like changing the way characters look..but this one is hard to resist. Now I just need a new computer.

 

 

I'm glad I didn't look at Solas mods...they would probably make me cry. Solas is perfect the way he is!!

 

EDIT: TOP Solas Age Progression by the lovely RuxandraLache

 

 

http://ruxandralache...Solas-522035186

 

My reaction to the Blackwall one was 'oh no.  He's hot.'

 

 

Someone finally managed to remove the underbeard thing on Blackwall. Impressive. He looks soooo different though.

 

There are some Solas texture mods I've seen. One makes him 'softer', whatever that means, and there's a ridiculous eyebrows Tharanduil-inspired mod.

 

They didn't actually remove the beard.  Another modder removed the top layer of the beard (yes, shaving Blackwall's beard reveals another beard) and this mod replaced that texture with stubble.

 

And oh god.  The eyebrows.

[drosophila]

The difference being, you knew about all the others. Leliana could have told you and let you decide. She should have told you and let you decide. You were in charge. You shared a campfire with him, heck you might of shared a bed--- or er hay bale.

 

She might have assumed the IQ wouldn't care given all the other shady types they're perfectly fine with. Or she might not think she has to tell them everything. She doesn't even have to be very happy with the IQ being in charge. My point is, one could come up with many reasons of why she didn't tell other than she's too soft or incompetent.

[Gwyvian]

The difference being, you knew about all the others. Leliana could have told you and let you decide. She should have told you and let you decide. You were in charge. You shared a campfire with him, heck you might of shared a bed--- or er hay bale.

 

*screeching grammar sensibilities*

[NeverlandHunter]

*screeching grammar sensibilities*

I'm on my phone Gwyvian :'(. My very lousy, sporadic, and stubborn phone. I honestly can't scroll up to see what I typed after I type it so it's up in arms how well it cones out.

[Gwyvian]

Haha I was trying to be informative and you went and threw it back at me x2!
Gawain is my faaaaavorrriitteee knight! Anne not just because Mr. Sexy plays him in Merlin! Ever since I read Gawain and the Green Knight many moons ago I've had a hero crush on Gawain! Such a dashing story about temptation and honor *_*

I definitely saw that you were connecting Alistair because of hisbackground to Arthur they definitely fit well enough! And I agree he grew into the role as king. I used pass tense for those who didn't make him king

Maybe Morrigan isn't Morgan, maybe it's...Anders! He has the healer thing going and the need for vengeance and Your Warden leaveshim with spirit. Justice is perfect for Morded! Or maybe Vengeance is haha. Ser Pounce-A-Lot is obviously the best knight there is and ever will be. We never did find out who knighted him, did we?

 

I've studied this particular lore quite a bit, especially since it always bothered me that the Hollywood versions of the legends always seemed a little too cookie-cutter perfect, so I began focusing on the originals and the various reinterpretations by authors since; I like the dynamism of the story, actually, it's all a bit open to interpretation. And Gawain is great, I agree. (A dear friend of mine also calls himself Gawain, which means that I have a soft spot for the legend anyway. ) I barely remember it, but I believe I used to hear these as bedtime stories, maybe that's what sparked my initial interest, I don't know.

 

Well, given that Alistair as king is the default, I think perhaps that the Arthurian connection was meant to be  - buuuut then there's Maric and his sword......................... hmmm. I have to rethink this.

 

Ooh, Anders as Morgan le Fey? Hmmm.... the healer that is possessed by the spirit of Justice and who unleashes Vengeance... not on King Alistair, though, but who knows what the future has in store. (No. I don't want that.   ) I think Anders knighted Ser Pounce-A-Lot, which makes Anders the king...... *gasp*

 

Wait, what if... all these characters took up the same role over and over? The characters change, but the role's don't! 

[Gwyvian]

I'm on my phone Gwyvian :'(. My very lousy, sporadic, and stubborn phone. I honestly can't scroll up to see what I typed after I type it so it's up in arms how well it cones out.

 

Ah, I see. Phones are evil that way, I know. 

[Gwyvian]

There is also Leliana's line at the end of the game, when she takes the Inquisitor aside to talk about beating Corypheus and Solas' disappearance. She calls Corypheus a "magister and darkspawn rolled into one: the ultimate evil' and I think this is a weirdly oversimplified stance, especially for Leliana, who undeniably exists in a moral grey area where she can be a Chantry sister who shanks people. It struck me as odd that she would understand him so little. Then again I've only played Inquisition, so maybe there's more to Leliana's stance than I know. I think Solas' dialogues with the Inquisitor when you ask him about Corypheus are some of the only ones in the  that illuminate Corypheus' motivations as a flawed character with wants and needs. 

 

I know the question has already been answered, but: Leliana as your DA:O companion is technically the Chantry sister, but you learn that the secrets she harbors are far darker than you'd assume from her personality (which was, well, not cheerful exactly, but brighter at least) and overall you learn that she wants very badly to be associated with good. So I think this reflects here, even if she becomes the ruthless spymaster, a part of her still wants to be associated with goodness, though she tries rejecting it on the surface of things. I think maybe even a part of her resents the fact that she was required by her environment to lose that part of herself and to don the mantle of the spymaster, and she has inhuman control of her acceptance of this fact, so that she never wavers and "succumbs" to her more innocent self, since she's convinced that that part of her is worthless to the Inquisition, just as it was ultimately worthless to the Divine. Then again, perhaps she feels more in her element now than she ever did before as the Chantry sister, yet the black-and-white statement you mention almost seems more probing to me; she's not stating her opinion, she's getting your reaction to gauge whether you can approach morality from an unconventional stance, which I assume would be a key issue from her perspective. So, I think she does understand Corypheus, but she realizes that the majority of Thedas will not - and shouldn't be expected to - overlook the surface issues that he killed a lot of people, had a mad plan and happened to be a darkspawn, therefore he is automatically equated with evil, no questions asked. A person who has lost someone to the war he instigated cannot be expected to just put that aside and "understand" him, but that does not mean that the Inquisitor need see it that way. So Leliana probes and keeps her peace thereafter depending on the answer she gets.

[Gwyvian]

May just be bad writing. A lot of the lines about, or given to, Corypheus are really poor in my opinion. Corypheus is an interesting character in theory but very little of the writing in game, bar a few codex entries, look at his motivations, his personal struggles, his life before becoming darkspawn. It's kind of unfair because he could be a very interesting villain but on the surface he's just a caricature and I keep wondering why my Inquisitor seems so personally invested in stopping this guy at times.

 

Interestingly, I think one of the writers did say that Cory was probably closest, out of all the characters, to Leliana - both struggle hugely with their faith in the space of the game, and their ruthlessness can partially be the cause of that struggle. With that in mind, I think it's just bad writing.

 

I wonder if there is something special about us as a group for looking for these things about the main villain of the story...  Or perhaps Solas just attracts that kind of person.

 

I agree there could have been much more, but as I have stated before, I think that his tragedy shines through even without overt comments towards that, but I also think that these aren't terribly obvious.

 

As to why the Inquisitor is invested, that's easier to answer: because Corypheus is invested in striking him/her down, but also because it's pretty clear that he is insane and powerful, which is a terrible combination. (Or a wonderful one depending on your perspective.) Once you grow into the role they shove you into, it becomes what you do without having to ask such a question, you started it (not by your choice) so now you should finish what you started and get rid of the world's latest problem at the source, i.e. Corypheus. Without him, everything more or less falls back into place.