153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriel.]

That would be so much drama - I love it! Do we know if they did make Tranquil in ancient Elvhenan?

 

In my head he escapes, frees a bunch of other elvhen slaves, rebellion ensues in which the other gods divide for or against his movement. Then they war on each other for a millenium or two.

I don't think it's ever mentioned. Solas disapproves whenever you do it as judgment, but that can also just be because you're taking someone's free will away, and he's big on that.

 

One hint...maybe....is something that left me confused about the end of TME. Felassan's Mysterious Master (I'm not totally sold on the interpretation that it's Solas yet) stalks up to him in the Fade, and the last line implies he's been killed. Except didn't DA2 establish that killing a Dreamer in the Fade just renders them Tranquil in the physical world? There's something there that I'm missing.

[midnight tea]

You and me both then. It's why I like this theory and find myself thinking about it and wondering "How awesome if that were true."

 

Another wild twist that sort of theory could have....is if Elgar'nan was SUPER pissed at the sinner and ordered him to be made tranquil. Then it goes the whole route of Fen'Harel made tranquil, but because spirits loved him so much they bring him out of tranquility and now you have angry Fen'Harel who is ascended because of sinner incident.

 

Whoa whoa whoa.... we don't even know if elves used anything like Tranquility, much less how Elgar'nan truly was or what was his judgment of the sinner who turned to dragon^^;

 

It's all fine and good to have it as your headcanon - personally however I think it's a little bit too speculative at this point.

[nikki-tikki]

It's not about how you or I play our Lavellans - the implication is there already in the game, made by a being that can pretty much enter character's head and read their emotions. There's really no other way of interpreting words "she thinks it's because of her" or "she thinks it's why you turned away".

 

Either way, whether Lavellan was male or female, it's not that hard to imagine them asking themselves a question of "is there something I've done?".

 

Also - the fact that female generally tend to field guilty is actually a thing confirmed through psychological research and numerous studies. That's not to say that we're all the same, but we ARE indeed easier to guilt-trip in generalized sense, even if the fact itself stems predominantly from how women are raised.

 

 

I. I don't really think that's true... 

[BoscoBread]

It's not about how you or I play our Lavellans - the implication is there already in the game, made by a being that can pretty much enter character's head and read their emotions. There's really no other way of interpreting words "she thinks it's because of her" or "she thinks it's why you turned away".

 

Either way, whether Lavellan was male or female, it's not that hard to imagine them asking themselves a question of "is there something I've done?".

 

Also - the fact that female generally tend to field guilty is actually a thing confirmed through psychological research and numerous studies. That's not to say that we're all the same, but we ARE indeed easier to guilt-trip in generalized sense, even if the fact itself stems predominantly from how women are raised.

Wow. This opinion..soo false and gross. Not worth talking anymore.  Seriously.  

 

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[midnight tea]

Excuse me? Did I just stumble into an MRA thread? How many red pills are you taking?

 

That's new. Usually I'm pinned as a raging feminazi.

 

Also - I'm not really sure why are you trying to escalate it so quickly to some sort of bizarre extreme? Not only I'm not doing anything out of line, I'm also not really sure why do you find a statement "women in general tend to feel more guilty" (something we have legit research done on, just like on the fact that men tend to be more aggressive) as... dunno... offensive?

 

How so? Why is guilt offensive? It implies willfulness to take responsibility, which is a mature thing to do. As with everything, this can be taken a tad too far.

[nikki-tikki]

That's new. Usually I'm pinned as a raging feminazi.

 

Also - I'm not really sure why are you trying to escalate it so quickly to some sort of bizarre extreme? Not only I'm not doing anything out of line, I'm also not really sure why do you find a statement "women in general tend to feel more guilty" (something we have legit research done on, just like on the fact that men tend to be more aggressive) as... dunno... offensive?

 

How so? Why is guilt offensive? It implies willfulness to take responsibility, which is a mature thing to do. As with everything, this can be taken a tad too far.

 

Feminazi arguments? Nope.

 

[laurelinvanyar]

That's new. Usually I'm pinned as a raging feminazi.

 

Also - I'm not really sure why are you trying to escalate it so quickly to some sort of bizarre extreme? Not only I'm not doing anything out of line, I'm also not really sure why do you find a statement "women in general tend to feel more guilty" (something we have legit research done on, just like on the fact that men tend to be more aggressive) as... dunno... offensive?

 

How so? Why is guilt offensive? It implies willfulness to take responsibility, which is a mature thing to do. As with everything, this can be taken a tad too far.

Care to back up that statement with the study? Otherwise....

 

Saying this is a social construct is ONE THING. Calling it a biological imperative is AWFUL. 

 

And may I remind you that Thedas is NOT a real-world equivalent. They don't have the same sexist hangups we do. 

[MayriyaNoori]

Let's talk about how cute Solas and Lavellan were in the Fade right before Lav surprised him with a kiss.  They both were staring kind of starry-eyed at each other...
 

 
Lookit his face:
 

 
He is giving her The Look!  I have no idea how the animators were able to capture The Look so well, but it frightens me and I approve.

Pfft, that wasn't the animators, that's just Solas in the Fade. He does whatever he pleases there!

Just joking, in all seriousness.
/melt into puddle

[DarthEmpress]

Why is this thread suddenly becoming incredibly uncomfortable?  People have different opinions.  Let's just talk about Solas.

[midnight tea]

Care to back up that statement with the study? Otherwise....

 

http://www.telegraph...t-than-men.html

http://www.dailymail...uilt-women.html

http://www.reuters.c...E72761M20110308

http://www.dailymail...shamed-day.html

http://blogs.wsj.com...guilt-than-men/

http://link.springer...1007/BF01061063

http://www.nydailyne...rticle-1.174934

http://www.nbcnews.c...ty-study-shows/

 

I can dig up more. All these articles have links to actual studies or are actual studies.

What's more, two last articles suggests that many men tend to be 'guilt-deficient', indicating that the feeling itself isn't necessarily bad.

 

Saying this is a social construct is ONE THING. Calling it a biological imperative is AWFUL. 

 

.... Can you actually return to my comment and actually read what I said?

 

Here, I'll even quote it for you: "That's not to say that we're all the same, but we ARE indeed easier to guilt-trip in general, even if the fact itself stems predominantly from how women are raised".

 

It really would be nice if people read things more carefully, instead of immediately jumping to conclusions, name-calling or accusing people of something they haven't done.

[MayriyaNoori]

That would be so much drama - I love it! Do we know if they did make Tranquil in ancient Elvhenan?

In my head he escapes, frees a bunch of other elvhen slaves, rebellion ensues in which the other gods divide for or against his movement. Then they war on each other for a millenium or two.

I think it's very possible they did use some form of Tranquility in those times. I mean, even reading the story about Andruil going nuts and fighting Mythal kinda comes off like Andruil being made Tranquil of sorts.

The thing is that it was probably very different back then since it seems the very nature of reality was different then. A Tranquil in Ancient times would have been surrounded by spirits and Fade so to be truly cut off from it would create sort of an abomination. Then you have to start wondering what that would be in a world like that.

It leads to some craziness I'm sure.

[drosophila]

Also - the fact that female generally tend to field guilty is actually a thing confirmed through psychological research and numerous studies. That's not to say that we're all the same, but we ARE indeed easier to guilt-trip in general, even if the fact itself stems predominantly from how women are raised, hence why I said it's not that hard to imagine that Lavellan may herself feel guilty (which the game heavily implies).

 

I don't believe it just because it's published. 85% of studies cannot be repeated successfully.

 

I'm not a psychologist, but as far as I know, it is very likely these studies were done on a limited sample of college undergraduates. Thus they do not represent all women, I would argue that they don't even represent women who have fully reached adulthood. In addition, I think this is something that would vary with societal norms, so if someone did it and showed women are somehow more guilty in 1975, it wouldn't necessarily be true now.

 

Finally, how would they even measure guilt? Probably by giving some sort of questionnaire to the research subjects to fill in. I imagine women would feel compelled to report they feel more guilty because of societal norms, but it doesn't necessary represent the extent of guilt they felt. 

 

I'm sorry, I bit my nails for 5 min, thinking whether on not to post a reply, but invoking "numerous research studies" has the same effect on me as Solas watchng his spirit friends being bound. I won't comment further on this.

[Cee]

 .. But the same could be told of Lavellan 'expressing herself' by removing the vallaslin.

 

I'm also not sure why history wouldn't be a source of knowledge that could be used to help all races of today for a Lavellan that removed that tatooo? Past is important for her in that regard, but not enough to define her. In any case, I'd like to think that's one of major reasons why she and Solas compliment one so well as a couple - he's someone who looks backwards, grounding her in knowledge of how things were and she's the one who's looking forward, giving him a fresh perspective (or maybe one he's lost at some point).

 

This is how I see it. She has new knowledge. She has experience to share. The Dalish have vowed to not submit to slavery and they're wearing an dlement of that broken history. As I said, mine felt like this was just one more part making up a new start for her and she planned to share all of this knowledge, and didn't think she would be alone. She is looking forward. Solas is constantly dwelling on the past. Their conversation where he asks what she would do if she woke up and everything was worse fits this very well, in their respective perspectives.

[RoraM]

It's not about how you or I play our Lavellans - the implication is there already in the game, made by a being that can pretty much enter character's head and read their emotions. There's really no other way of interpreting words "she thinks it's because of her" or "she thinks it's why you turned away".
 
Either way, whether Lavellan was male or female, it's not that hard to imagine them asking themselves a question of "is there something I've done?".
 
Also - the fact that female generally tend to field guilty is actually a thing confirmed through psychological research and numerous studies. That's not to say that we're all the same, but we ARE indeed easier to guilt-trip in general, even if the fact itself stems predominantly from how women are raised, hence why I said it's not that hard to imagine that Lavellan may herself feel guilty (which the game heavily implies).

I did a cursory Internet search and while the source (tabloid) and likely methodology (ambiguous) of the research are suspect, they came to the same conclusion: http://www.dailymail...egrets-men.html

I was wondering if anyone had better luck finding reputable reports of research supporting this study's claims. Given that I am female and I always question what I did wrong when I get dumped and my female friends often do the same, prima facie conclusions that most women feel this way are natural, unless one recognizes the inherent sample bias.

I just realized I've asked if anyone has performed a systematic review of the literature as it pertains to gender-specific feelings of guilt post-termination of a romantic relationship. Because of Solas.

[MayriyaNoori]

Guy, guys.....Solas. Elves. Thedas.

frilly cakes. Surely frilly cakes don't offend.

[Cee]

 

 

Which God did your Lavellan pick for her vallaslin and why?

 

Mine had Mythal's simplified vallaslin, both for the design but also her role as eldest sibling, clan protector, her duty, and a certain sense of justice and tradition.
 

lmao that would be such a painful conversation.

 

"Da'len I'm just going to point out the elephant in the room here. What happened to your face."
"Uh, there was this guy......"

 

This is the shortest version of what I'm planning to write as part of my headcanon that has my Lavellan visiting her clan post-ending. Except in her case, it will be her younger sister to see her face first and cause a whole lot of tension. Especially because her sister will get a bit biting with the "there was this guy" aspect.

 

 

[Sabriel.]

...Well. I'll say that my Lavellan didn't internalize any guilt there (though again she removed the tattoos--different context), so I was a little surprised when I heard that line from Cole. To her it was very obviously "This guy just said how important I am and he loves me but is leaving for Mysterious Reasons he isn't sharing with me." Solas repeatedly says it is all on him. He freely admits there's something worth explaining in the followup conversation, but refuses to do so because final boss battles are more important.

 

That doesn't mean roleplaying it the other way is invalid at all. Different Lavellans, different stories. I don't think any further debate is necessary outside of PM since it's about the real world and Thedas is a quite different place, especially where gender roles/expectations are concerned.

[midnight tea]

Why is this thread suddenly becoming incredibly uncomfortable?  People have different opinions.  Let's just talk about Solas.

 

Different opinions are all fine and good - what I don't understand is the extreme reaction when it comes to some disagreements. I keep all my comment polite and to the point and am only asking for the same.

 

 

I don't believe it just because it's published. 85% of studies cannot be repeated successfully.

 

True - it also matters WHERE it's published. But if more than a couple of studies from various, respectable sources indicates a tendency, it's a good indicator that research does indeed is on to something.

 

 

I'm not a psychologist, but as far as I know, it is very likely these studies were done on a limited sample of college undergraduates. Thus they do not represent all women, I would argue that they don't even represent women who have fully reached adulthood. In addition, I think this is something that would vary with societal norms, so if someone did it and showed women are somehow more guilty in 1975, it wouldn't necessarily be true now.

 

You can read all these article - samples were mentioned, and they are varied across the size of the sample or age.

 

 

 

Finally, how would they even measure guilt? Probably by giving some sort of questionnaire to the research subjects to fill in. I imagine women would feel compelled to report they feel more guilty because of societal norms, but it doesn't necessary represent the extent of guilt they felt. 

 

The extent, not necessarily. But the fact that the tendency to feel more guilty (or more guilty more frequently) has been established.

 

 

I'm sorry, I bit my nails for 5 min, thinking whether on not to post a reply, but invoking "numerous research studies" has the same effect on me as Solas watchng his spirit friends being bound. I won't comment further on this.

 

That's fair - but you can always ask me to provide something (in case people wanted to continue the topic, which I wasn't sure of) and I will, no problem. What I ask for is not immediately jumping to extremes or misrepresenting what I said, like some did (you didn't, but some indeed did).

[Suketchi]

SEXISM. SEXISM EVERYWHERE.
 
No one likes stereotypes.
 

I don't believe it just because it's published. 85% of studies cannot be repeated successfully.
 
I'm not a psychologist, but as far as I know, it is very likely these studies were done on a limited sample of college undergraduates. Thus they do not represent all women, I would argue that they don't even represent women who have fully reached adulthood. In addition, I think this is something that would vary with societal norms, so if someone did it and showed women are somehow more guilty in 1975, it wouldn't necessarily be true now.
 
Finally, how would they even measure guilt? Probably by giving some sort of questionnaire to the research subjects to fill in. I imagine women would feel compelled to report they feel more guilty because of societal norms, but it doesn't necessary represent the extent of guilt they felt. 
 
I'm sorry, I bit my nails for 5 min, thinking whether on not to post a reply, but invoking "numerous research studies" has the same effect on me as Solas watchng his spirit friends being bound. I won't comment further on this.

 
 
Let's not forget that many men might feel compelled to put on 'bravado', as society teaches men emotional vulnerability is a weakness.

 

[midnight tea]

This is how I see it. She has new knowledge. She has experience to share. The Dalish have vowed to not submit to slavery and they're wearing an dlement of that broken history. As I said, mine felt like this was just one more part making up a new start for her and she planned to share all of this knowledge, and didn't think she would be alone. She is looking forward. Solas is constantly dwelling on the past. Their conversation where he asks what she would do if she woke up and everything was worse fits this very well, in their respective perspectives.

 

Fair. I mean, I think we've already established that there's no right or wrong choice here as decisions and motivations for Lavellans to do so can be interpreted in may ways 

 

(I mean, unless some new info of some sort is revealed, but at this point either for us or for Lavellans this is one big unknown)

[Kestrel]

Heads up to other Tumblr users- there's a 'military' Solas picture floating around and it's pretty much directly an SS officer uniform, so I dunno wtf is with that... but a general heads up because Tumblr is cray cray and people are going on about how 'cute' it is. 

[MayriyaNoori]

I think it will stay with both answers are just fine. Main reason, the way Solas is about it. He loves Lavellan either way and if the vallaslin actually posed a danger to her, I'm sure he would have begged her to reconsider whatever her decision was.

[midnight tea]

SEXISM. SEXISM EVERYWHERE.
 
No one likes stereotypes.

 

Nobody does, but finding a tendency (whether in society, nation, gender or else) and discussing it ain't really the same

 

 

Let's not forget that many men might feel compelled to put on 'bravado', as society teaches men emotional vulnerability is a weakness.

 

Sadly, they are - still. Just like sadly there are many societies - including those in Western countries - that like to instill guilt in women for many things, to smaller or lesser degree. Hopefully this will change in time; it slowly does, but we're not there yet.

[RoraM]

I find it odd when people who find statements problematic because they consider their factual provenance dubious do not bother to provide evidence to support their position, allowing discussion to degenerate into the no-win situation of opinion vs. opinion. For some reason, I thought this thread was better than that. Clearly, I was naive.