153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeniva]

I don't understand why she's so horrible to blackwall all the time. But then if you romance him she says something about it's because he's charming? 

[BoscoBread]

Now you're being rude. From what you're saying you're accusing me of being unethical. Don't do that.  We disagree on the read of a character. Not the death penalty. Chill out.

[NightSymphony]

Alright people...the Solas romance needs more votes here!! This makes me sad.

http://www.ign.com/w...Sex_and_Romance

[Cee]

I always think that it's pretty obvious from the first meeting, that Vivienne wishes to use the rising Inquisition to help quell the turmoil and re-secure her position of influence in the Orlesian Courts. If you think about, the Mage rebellion was an exceptionally dangerous time for her, especially in Orlais, with the Divine dead and people clamouring to blame someone. Not a good time for any Mage, even one with the backing Vivienne has. She took a chance and threw her lot in with the Inquisition. Depending on your choices and friendship, you could have greatly helped her (Divine) or potentially ruined her (no Circle, no Celene, no Inquisition friendship, no Marquis). I mean, Vivienne as a Mage is not allowed to own property. So where can she go, if you choose that route?

 

In my world, with Leliana Divine, The College of Enchanters now welcomes all mages.

 

 

Now you're being rude. From what you're saying you're accusing me of being unethical. Don't do that.  We disagree on the read of a character. Not the death penalty. Chill out.

 

I was talking about the action/process and the character, not you. Don't read into it.

 

 

• Solas: Do enjoy this time, Enchanter. You may miss your freedom when you lock yourself back up in some tower.
• Vivienne: Imprisonment is largely a matter of who holds the keys.
• Solas: You so often come out on top. You play the political games brilliantly.
• Vivienne: A compliment? Although you speak it as a curse.
• Solas: You could use those skills to improve the lives of your fellow mages. Instead you have done nothing, save consolidate your own power.
• Vivienne: What if keeping my power might in fact improve the lives of my fellow mages?
• Solas: You honestly believe the world is better off with you setting its course?
• Vivienne: I need not be in spotlight. But after watching others try and fail, why should I not have a turn?
• Solas: Then Enchanter, I leave you with the greatest curse of my people. Dirthara-ma.
• Vivienne: What rustic elven curse is that, apostate?
• Solas: May you learn.

 

I do love this banter in particular.

[Sabriel.]

Um, only Inqs who earn Vivienne's friendship get to meet Bastien's family, just saying. And the encounter with them ends up benefiting the Inquisition's reputation with the Council of Freaking Heralds. Vivienne already had that because of the duke. At that point in the game, Viv pretty much loves you, but yes she continues betting on the winning horse because that's what she does. She's with the Inquisition now, so she wants to ensure its continued success in the ways she can. How that scene is so widely misread just because of people's biases makes me sad. I mean she gave my heathen apostate a sweet friendship ring at the end of it, and they argued pretty bitterly early on. Woman looks out for Number One but is capable of caring for others.

on topic, like Solas! Who is....also misunderstood. And also does, yes, use the Inquisition to get his orb back. At least Vivienne doesn't peace out at the very end. (Unless she becomes Divine, but you can still get her back in the party.)

Edit: my anti Circle Inquisitor absolutely helped her get the Circle tomes back, because as Keeper's apprentice she knows how sad and harmful losing knowledge forever can be. So.

[Giton]

Call me crazy, but I find it MORE ethical to be up front about your motivations, rather than to hide them the ENTIRE time--like a certain someone, who also used the Inquisition to further their own ends.

 

[midnight tea]

She does say something like that. She's in a position where her sources of power are in flux so she wants to be part of it. It doesn't mean come parade people around and use me personally for your own social climbing.

 

Um, I always took it as a meeting that was beneficial for both sides - yes, Vivenne 'paraded people around', but those were people with tremendous influence, who at the same time were impressed by Inquisition and Inquisitor (likely because Vivienne did tell good things about it) and treated IQ with respect through the duration of the scene. Those weren't mere noble tourists who came sneering at everything and twisting their noses at Inquisitor's sight.

 

So for me, it was a sign from Vivienne that she pulls all the stings to make Inquisition accepted and supported among the highest circles in nobility - possibly Chantry as well, not just for her own benefit, but Inquistor's as well.

[Cee]

Alright people...the Solas romance needs more votes here!! This makes me sad.

http://www.ign.com/w...Sex_and_Romance

 

At least it's beating Blackwall? I find it interesting to look at the skew, but given IGN's core readership I'm not surprised to see Cassandra's romance in the lead.

[DustyTulip]

Alright people...the Solas romance needs more votes here!! This makes me sad.

http://www.ign.com/w...Sex_and_Romance

Voted!

 

I am not surprised by Cassandra's popularity, but I thought Cullen would have more votes :/

[drosophila]

I'm sorry to be late to such a great discussion. What bugs me about Vivienne is not the networking, or not even how she openly and unapologetically uses people towards her own agenda. In fact, I was very intrigued by her character at first precisely because of that. It's refreshing to have an openly scheming, cutthroat, pragmatic to a fault character thrown in the mix. 

 

But then I interracted with her more and realized she's a snob. Disgustingly so. I know the harshness of the word and I wouldn't use it lightly. She's not simply ambitious and eager to get ahead, she actually thinks anyone with lower social status is somehow below her and treats them with disdain. Also if you ask her where she's from and her early past, you can sense she's ashamed of her background. I simply couldn't tolerate that and even though my canon character is a somewhat pro-circle mage (they can be done!) who likes the templars, I barely talk to Vivienne and never complete her personal mission or anything. 

[Jeniva]

I wish there was a 'punch Vivienne' scene. 

[Illyria]

My biggest problem with Vivienne isn't that. It's that when you complete her quest, she brings people around and just openly and blatantly uses you for her own personal gain and selfish social climbing.

 

She might have a few moments with some and show she cares, but she has a terrible personality and is utilizing world-threatening disaster to keep her own status.

 

I was so disgusted I stopped recruiting her.

 

Though I will again for my pro-Circle Trevelyan mage since I want to pair them in a sort of mentor-student relationship.

 

You should recuit her for your Seramancing playthrough too.  Having Viv around is the only way get the full sex scene.

[RynJ]

I like Vivienne personally but I think the main problem is that she was wasted in this game. I didn't feel like she had enough purpose or fleshing out as a character, so of course to many she seemed to just be that one unnecessary companion that stands there and is snobby and hates everything they stand for (I've found that most players I know are pro-mage, anti-Templar, anti-Circle, particularly in certain circles of fans). Her views are relatively simple and the rest of your time with her is dancing around her in conversations if you don't agree with her. She doesn't add much of anything other than a viewpoint different from what we've witnessed before and one that would be abrasive to many players.

 

It doesn't leave much for players to like her for, honestly. You could argue that she's a loyal friend, but it's never fully clear whether or not she isn't just using your "closeness" to her advantage. I think that makes her interesting, personally, but to to others it comes across very badly. If we're going to compare her to Solas, one could say that Solas very very likely isn't doing what he does purely for himself (and whatever he's doing may just hurt him in the end). Vivienne is, and along with other aspects of her personality, that's not at all appealing to many players. I think there's more to her than what others see and that she's more fleshed out than she's given credit for, but I can't ignore the relative flatness in my eyes.

 

But beside the fact, I so wish she'd had a bigger part in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts. Missed opportunity by a mile there!

[Illyria]

Call me crazy, but I find it MORE ethical to be up front about your motivations, rather than to hide them the ENTIRE time--like a certain someone, who also used the Inquisition to further their own ends.

 

I would argue that Solas was upfront about his motives.  He said he wanted to find the orb and he wanted to close the Breach.

[Jeniva]

I would argue that Solas was upfront about his motives.  He said he wanted to find the orb and he wanted to close the Breach.

 

Solas makes you feel more his friend than Viv ever does, thus allowing you to trust in him more.

[drosophila]

Main differences between Vivienne and Solas, IMO:

• Solas is not after power or status for himself.
• As harsh as Solas can be towards some characters, you know he's equally hard on himself. He doesn't think he's better than everyone else, in fact, he recognizes his own flaws and seems deeply regretful of whatever it is he has done. 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Woman looks out for Number One but is capable of caring for others.

 

 

So for me, it was a sign from Vivienne that she pulls all the stings to make Inquisition accepted and supported among the highest circles in nobility - possibly Chantry as well, not just for her own benefit, but Inquistor's as well.

 

These were my reads on Vivienne, as well. Just cus she has self interest doesn't mean she's automatically horrible. Vivienne actually cares about a great many people, I think. More than she let's show on the surface. The advice she gives Bull, her rapport with Varric, the talks she has with Cassandra, the way she scathingly defends Dorian to people back in Tevinter when she had the opportunity to backstab him. Heck, she even ends up worrying for Cole's well being. If that banter isn't an example of her mask slipping, I don't know what is. All of it shows she cares for others.

 

She's sure of herself and confident in her opinions. I ended up admiring her a great deal. She was something of a mentor to my rogue Lavellan.

[Uirebhiril]

I really appreciate Vivienne as a character. Sometimes, people are just going to be in it for themselves. Even if they manage to help you out along the way to their own goals. Vivienne is this way and is unapologetic about it, which makes for an interesting departure from the usual "we must all band together and save the world because it's the RIGHT THING TO DO!" Viv and Sera are kind of alike in that. They want the world back to normal so they can continue doing their own thing. That it would allow everyone else to survive is a nice bonus, but not their overriding goal. 

 

Of course, she still was a prickly individual who could be hard to get along with, but I liked her all the same... even if I'm still not sure how my pro-mage Dalish character got to be her good friend on the first playthrough.

[Sabriel.]

Main differences between Vivienne and Solas, IMO:

• Solas is not after power or status for himself.
• As harsh as Solas can be towards some characters, you know he's equally hard on himself. He doesn't think he's better than everyone else, in fact, he recognizes his own flaws and seems deeply regretful of whatever it is he has done. 

I actually think they're remarkably similar in that first aspect. Vivienne does want to help mages, and agrees if you say "Templars aren't the solution." She does want to regain the position of power she attained (and worked super hard for btw, being at a disadvantage both because of her birth and her magic), but she can and does use that power to improve the plight of mages if she becomes Divine. Specifically, mages have a lot more personal freedoms under her Circles, and Templars are the ones with less leeway. She crushes whatever's left of the rebellion, but of course she does. The vast majority of the ones we meet in Redcliffe didn't want to leave the Circle at all. She basically does decide that mages' lives will be better off in conditions she herself dictates......but what is Solas doing?

He tells Flemeth "the People need me." Okay, but do they really? More importantly, would they even accept it? He's preaching a narrative completely counter to what the Dalish believe. The city elves are either like Sera or more focused on not angering the humans so they don't get killed. We don't know how he plans on improving the situation, but how do we know the elves will even like what he has in mind? Like Lavellan can say if he dismisses helping a city elf, "You're deciding his reaction for him." Sure he wants to help the elves, but apparently his idea of "help" is the one that they're just going to have to go along with, because everything points to his plans being big, whatever they are. Maybe he's not going "Now I have all the power and I rule the world, muahahahaha," but neither does Vivienne. He does, however, seem to think "Now I have this power, and I'm going to use it to help my people...the way I want." And so does Vivienne.

[nikki-tikki]

I would argue that Solas was upfront about his motives.  He said he wanted to find the orb and he wanted to close the Breach.

 

Except the part where he's the dread wolf and he gave his orb to Corypheus which is what caused the breach in the first place.

 

 

Real upfront. Fo real. 

[The Oracle]

Its best not to compare Vivienne's future actions to Solas's because we have absolutely no clue what Solas is about to do next, exactly WHO he is referring to when he says "the People" or anything. Right now, all we know is that he went to see Flemeth/Mythal, was upset, she collapsed in his arms and he has glowy eyes. That's it. Everything else is speculation and as easy as it is to get caught up in fan theory, we know zip about what his future plans are.

[Illyria]

Except the part where he's the dread wolf and he gave his orb to Corypheus which is what caused the breach in the first place.

 

 

Real upfront. Fo real. 

 

That isn't his motives.  That's history.  His motive is to find the orb and seal the breach.  He tells the Inquisitor both these things.

[panamakira]

Except the part where he's the dread wolf and he gave his orb to Corypheus which is what caused the breach in the first place.

 

 

Real upfront. Fo real. 

 Wow I haven't been here in forever. Just wanted to point out this truth right here LOL Solas.

[Cee]

 

These were my reads on Vivienne, as well. Just cus she has self interest doesn't mean she's automatically horrible. Vivienne actually cares about a great many people, I think. More than she let's show on the surface. The advice she gives Bull, her rapport with Varric, the talks she has with Cassandra, the way she scathingly defends Dorian to people back in Tevinter when she had the opportunity to backstab him. Heck, she even ends up worrying for Cole's well being. If that banter isn't an example of her mask slipping, I don't know what is. All of it shows she cares for others.

 

She's sure of herself and confident in her opinions. I ended up admiring her a great deal. She was something of a mentor to my rogue Lavellan.

 

 

Vivienne maintains her exterior but yes, she does care. It still doesn't excuse the fact she uses you so blatantly in that moment, but she locks a lot of it away underneath. She fears loss of control and power. Her greatest nightmare is irrelevance, after all. I don't like her personality but it doesn't mean I think she's horrible. I find her to be a three-dimensional character. Just not the type of person I get along with very well and that action disgusted me.

 

While Solas was mentioned, I agree that he's not in it for himself. He's still straightforward with you in a really obscured way, so it is a form of deception by omission and use for his own ends, but he asks, you discuss things, he explicitly states the main thread of what he's after. There's clearly more, but the fact he's not in it for himself is important.

 

There's a reason why my emphasis on Vivienne's action was that she doesn't express it beforehand. There's no asking, no consent, just shoving these people at you with the sole purpose of improving her social status. I would have had no problem doing it for her as a favor if she only asked, and felt completely fine about it. Helping a friend is cool. Being used by a friend is not.

 

It's not wrong or bad to want things or to build a good life for yourself, which she has risen up to create and not just survive, but thrive and enter a world of privilege. That she had to also maintain. She has done much in her life. It's one reason she's going to be my Trevelyan mage's mentor.
 

[midnight tea]

He tells Flemeth "the People need me." Okay, but do they really?

 

To be fair to Solas, we don't really know the context for this statement. It might be the way you tell it is, or it might be something completely different.

 

We know, for example, that dwarves - for some reason - are on verge of extinction. What if the same things happens/will happen to elves as well, unless something only a former god can do will stop it through some sort of magical means that will affect everyone of elven race in some capacity?

 

 

Except the part where he's the dread wolf and he gave his orb to Corypheus which is what caused the breach in the first place.

 

To be fair AGAIN, we don't really know how that happened. Solas may as well blame himself for "giving" the Orb away, in a sense that he was powerless to stop Corypheus at a time.

 

---

 

As for similarities between Solas and Vivienne - oh yeah, I think there are quite a few.

They major difference is, its seems, that Vivienne has put all her faith in the system Solas is certain only causes problems and seems to disapprove Vivienne's way of accumulating power. Both however seem convinced that they'll change things for the better while they get to power (whatever that power is). I think both of them are skeptical about "grassroots" approach or doing one small thing at a time - they both likely think that things are either so complicated or went so far that it can be only counter-balanced by drastic changes on the top of power structure.