153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Cee]

I started the DA series with Inquisition, so sadly my first impressions of the Wardens were formed by Blackwall and Clarell. All I can say is that Solas objectively has the right idea, he seems to know much more about the Blight than the Wardens do. What perplexes me is why he wouldn't share that knowledge, he wants to help save the world from the Breach, but not from the Blight?

 

It's all speculation at this point. The Blight may be connected to the gods and if he clarified his position further, his knowledge might come further into question. Maybe you can't explain everything via the Fade. Whatever he can obscure he obscures, but the Blight, taint, and the Wardens and the Old Gods? That is...specific.

 

also, he did not know Corypheus would be able to jump into tainted bodies and was surprised at his survival. There might be other missing info.

[Gervaise]

To be honest, ever since Duncan struck down Jordy because he wouldn't do the joining ritual and left his young wife widowed for no good reason, plus hearing from Nathaniel how one of his relatives went off to join them and they were never told exactly what happened (but he assumes he failed the joining), I've not been over the moon about the Wardens.   Don't like the secrecy either.    And getting people to do the joining between Blights seems a stupid waste of life.  

 

That said, I found it hard to understand exactly why Solas was so against them.     It wasn't the blood magic or the enslaving of spirits (demons), since he seemed really puzzled when I promised to help the spirits.    It could hardly be because of their "ends justifies the means" approach because I've a feeling Solas tends to view his actions in the same way.   He seemed absolutely beside himself that we should stop them.   At first I thought this was because he didn't like them going after the old gods in that way but we already knew it wasn't going to end up that way because the moment they raised their demon army, Cory was going to use it on the surface.     However, if you try to sway Clarel and the other Wardens by recounting the history of their heroic exploits, "Solas Disapproves", so it definitely has to do with what the Wardens have done in the past.   

 

Flemeth wanted to stop the Blight but not at the expense of the continued existence of the old god.   I can only think that  Solas disapproves of their actions in killing the old gods to stop the Blight instead of trying to find an alternative, which as we know does exist.    It is the Warden's quick fix approach to problems that I think he dislikes.    Using Flemeth's ritual means the spirit of the old god is preserved and presumably retains something of its identity, whereas with the Wardens' method, even if the soul isn't totally destroyed as they think (because the old god has a spirit essence that returns to the Fade), it loses its sense of identity, just as his friend did.

 

So to a large extent I think Solas might simply have been in agreement with Morrigan's words; that humans are too quick to destroy things they don't fully understand and in so doing remove much that is wondrous from the world, leaving simply the mundane.    

[Sabriel.]

 SO, given the staggering number of fans who revere the Grey Wardens, how do Solas fans feel about his antagonism towards their 'Order? And please do not say "well, he makes some good points..." because that is kind of a cop-out. Do you feel he has the right idea, in general, or not?

I do not revere the Grey Wardens, and their plan really was stupid. Trusting Erimond of all people was unbelievably stupid. I took both Solas and Cassandra into the Fade so the majority of my party were saying "get rid of these idiots" and I pretty much agreed.

 

That said, I feel like he's still withholding a lot of information as to why he believes the way he does, so I can't judge his "antagonism" fairly yet. It seems like there's more there than just "they're a large, inherently corruptible organization, binding spirits to do their dirty work." When he hears their plan he freaks out. Twice. He knows something we don't.

[Garnet]

 SO, given the staggering number of fans who revere the Grey Wardens, how do Solas fans feel about his antagonism towards their 'Order? And please do not say "well, he makes some good points..." because that is kind of a cop-out. Do you feel he has the right idea, in general, or not?

 

Well the Wardens as an order do some pretty sketchy things for their cause. It's said multiple times, that they will do anything to stop a blight. We see this in action in DAI. They were not brainwashed into binding demons. They thought it was a good idea at the time because of their panic about the calling. They decided that slaying the Old Gods was the only answer. I can see how they would come to that conclusion, but dealing with demons is generally a bad idea. So yes, I think Solas has the right idea. I think that their intentions were good but they showed extremely poor judgement. I also think there is some other underlying reason Solas hates them.

[RynJ]

 SO, given the staggering number of fans who revere the Grey Wardens, how do Solas fans feel about his antagonism towards their 'Order? And please do not say "well, he makes some good points..." because that is kind of a cop-out. Do you feel he has the right idea, in general, or not?

 

Their plan was stupid, plain and simple. We've been getting a more negative view of the Wardens for a while so it wasn't such a strange followup. As to Solas' antagonism, though he gives us reasons for it, they're not the full reasons. His real issue with them and how they do things is clearly yet to be revealed and will probably make much more sense once we know them. So it's impossible to say whether or not he has the right idea. However, I doubt it's nearly as baseless as I've seen some particularly defensive-of-Grey Wardens fans act like it is.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 'Appreciate all the thoughtful responses. Do not mind me while I reply/clarify this:

 

How is saying Solas has some good points a cop out?

Anyone can say anyone makes good points about anything, but it really does not tell me much about what you think. You can say [x] makes good points, and mean it, yet hold an opinion ranging anywhere from: "His word is gospel and I completely accept anything he says anyway no matter what I think because all praise the Dread Wolf!" to "In my careful assessment of the matter, he is 100% correct," to "He has the right ideas, for the most part, but a few things he thinks are not accurate," to "He is right, for the wrong reasons," to "I do not know; he says some things I agree with but I do not really know overall," to "I can kinda/sorta agree with some of the things he is saying, but I mostly disagree," to "his opinions are garbage." It does not narrow things down very much at all.
 
(And YES, it *is* possible to think someone whose opinions are garbage can make good points in their favor. I can think of various ideologies that have some strong points behind them but that I still think are ridiculous at the end of the day and basically altogether garbage. Think of it like a polished turd. I will not deny the polished nature of it, if it is there, but that is a long ways away from me thinking it is a diamond or anything other than turd).

 

So for the intents and purposes of my request, f*** agreeableness. Break down his opinion and judge it for the sum of all parts.

 

If you are incapable of such an exercise, please move along.

[drosophila]

He hasn't even offered a bitchy sigh's worth of a viable solution. His disapproval alone helps no one.

 

This is one of his main flaws, IMO. I adore his character in many ways, but for everything he is eager to criticize, he offers no good alternative. Wardens, circles, the Dalish, all he does is deride them without offering ways for improvement. I bet his mistakes in the past have something to do with being too eager to bring down the establishment without thinking of something to replace the chaos that follows. 

 

EDIT: Also, I'm out of likes for today, so apologize I can't like all the comments of those who participate in the discussion.

[Aren]

 SO, given the staggering number of fans who revere the Grey Wardens, how do Solas fans feel about his antagonism towards their 'Order? And please do not say "well, he makes some good points..." because that is kind of a cop-out. Do you feel he has the right idea, in general, or not?

He doesn't seem to care particularly about the world and it's "organizations".

How many times he saw the world change from the fade?

I saw him to be kinda idealistic,of course that the wardens and this world doesn't appeal to him,he is accustomed with the perfection of spirits and their songs.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I don't particularly care about Solas' ideas about the order. Solas has a tendency to knee-jerk away from things that are "new" to him - Circles, Gray Wardens, modern Dalish, etc. Bonus points if they're new AND they offend his principles! Like the Qun. I think the only modern point of view or cultural system that didn't offend him was the Avvar asking spirits to empower their blades. He said something along the lines of "Look at this primitive human in his natural environment using spirits."

Anyway - Gray Wardens. We're in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. Gray Wardens have the mistake of thinking that killing the archdemons will solve the problem. It won't. They'll just come above ground with no archdemon calling them below. Almost 1.5k years of broodmother darkspawn hitting the surface at once. The dwarves would be wiped out immediately - they can barely survive as it is with Darkspawn being mostly concerned with digging.

Annnnd gray wardens, in their very real desperation, have a tendency to make big mistakes. I.e..let's sacrifice half of our forces to make a demon army and storm the deep roads! Or let's continue to blight griffons because it makes them stronger! Never mind having to use blood magic to keep them from ripping themselves apart! Opps, extinction of the species we needed to keep doing our jobs! Better save these few eggs. It's an evil magister! Let's keep the corpse of Dumat! Oh hey, we just realized that putting the two of them in the same vicinity was a bad idea. Also mindcontrol! Who knew! And now they're planning on doing something so offensively wrong that they're in a civil war amongst themselves in Weishaupt.

They're not the smartest cookies in the box. Not because they're stupid, but because they're desperate. And that's a GOOD flaw. It's overcorrection. Overzealousness. Fear. In the face of something no one else is willing to look at and address. But they can't look away. It hounds them in their sleep, calls then when they've awake, and they see it claim their friends one by one. They have every reason to be frightened.

We need gray wardens. Flemeth said as much. But to and for what end... I have NO idea. The game and Thedas to date have yet to offer an alternative solution. Neither has Solas. He hasn't even offered a bitchy sigh's worth of a viable solution. His disapproval alone helps no one.

 

For my part, I do not think they should be their own, unaccountable entity. I would prefer to see them give up their secrets to the heads of state and give up all the pretentiousness. Clearly they like having been raised to a position of influence and do not want to give it all up. Nobody likes losing status. That said, the world would be better off if more people were armed with the knowledge against the Darkspawn that the Wardens are keeping secret.

 

When I say that, people often jump all over me, most commonly with "Governments can get corrupt and ignore their duties, then who will save them from the Blight??" and "they will abuse that knowledge by making Grey Wardens for their own ends!" Well the 'Wardens do not solve the first problem. In fact, they are an even worse reality, because governments can easily discredit them as merely fabled heroes and illegalize them. OTOH, even the most corrupt governments do not take matters of national security lightly. If a Blight is at their doorstep, they will take measures to end it, convenient or not.

 

As for the latter...  that is exactly what the Grey Wardens do. They show the willingness to harbor dangerous criminals/apostates/maleficar in their ranks or force other able-bodied individuals with whole lives ahead of them into the service which they can never break away from. A little late to worry about that one.

 

 

Well the Wardens as an order do some pretty sketchy things for their cause. It's said multiple times, that they will do anything to stop a blight. We see this in action in DAI. They were not brainwashed into binding demons. They thought it was a good idea at the time because of their panic about the calling. They decided that slaying the Old Gods was the only answer. I can see how they would come to that conclusion, but dealing with demons is generally a bad idea. So yes, I think Solas has the right idea. I think that their intentions were good but they showed extremely poor judgement. I also think there is some other underlying reason Solas hates them.

 

 

Solas slightly disapproves if you bring up the demon aspect, dismissing it as irrelevant. That tells me that he really just hates the plan, and would hate it even if the Wardens' methods were clean/safe.

 

I do not think you even need to covet the Old Gods to hate the plan, either. The Old Gods' calling controls the Darkspawn, compels them to search underground to dig out the next one. If you kill the Old Gods, you are, in effect, removing what chains them and nobody -- perhaps not even Solas or Flemeth -- know what the outcome of that will be.

 

Which brings us to the next issue -- what progress have the Wardens made, really? They stop Blights -- which is obviously helpful -- but have they any solution for what comes after the last Archdemon is slain, or are they just wishing that will be the end of it?

[midnight tea]

Solas may not have said everything he knew about the Blight or Archdemons, but I think he's pretty clear as to what bothers him about Wardens throughout the course of the game - he thinks they're simplistic and overzealous. Their duty is all that matters to them and they think their duty is to act, without stopping and thinking about consequences "like a fair lady that chases the butterfly off a cliff. (But if you don't stop them, we'll all fall)".

 

I've mentioned it at one point before and I'll do it again, but I think there's something Blackwall said that summarizes problem with Wardens well (Blackwall may not be Grey Warden per se, but he IS a Grey Warden fanboy after all) - I paraphrase here: "it would be better if people fought evil, instead of trying to understand where it comes from".

 

I don't think I have to say how problematic such statements are? Action is needed when necessary of course, but it's just SO easy to deem something as evil and work up oneself to fight against it, instead of trying to dissect the problem and deem it as more complex than it seems.

 

Wardens may have good intentions, but those good intentions will likely pave the road to hell - it possibly mirrors something Solas thinks he's done in the past, which probably adds to his freak out about the whole thing. 

 

.... Or, he may have witnessed what happened if people went digging for Archdemons before - after all, there is a codex (http://dragonage.wik...d_Elven_Writing) in Temple Of Mythal that suggests that this may not be the first time someone had that idea.

 

 

 

As for Soals not offering any better solution - well, we don't really know what he knows and maybe he thinks that there's nothing people in modern Thedas can do in the long run. 

 

He DID say this to Blackwall after all:
 

Solas: I will remember this. When it is over.

Blackwall: This? This war? The Inquisition?

Solas: The people. How you fought against the tide. It is... courageous.

 

He also admitted to Varric that, for all their flaws, the Wardens managed to buy some time for Thedas. So he obviously knows something, but apparently he thinks that aside from buying time, the best things Wardens can do is - ironically - not make things worse in their zeal to stop the Blight and Darkspawn.

 

In Solas' eyes, the situation with Wardens seems to be the "one step forward, two steps back" type - for all the good they can do while delaying the worst, they may as well possess enough power to bring catastrophe to Thedas much earlier than it's anticipated (by ancient elven entities and who knows what else).

 

 

This is one of his main flaws, IMO. I adore his character in many ways, but for everything he is eager to criticize, he offers no good alternative. Wardens, circles, the Dalish, all he does is deride them without offering ways for improvement. I bet his mistakes in the past have something to do with being too eager to bring down the establishment without thinking of something to replace the chaos that follows. 

 

I don't really think that's the case. People don't want to listen to him, much less to (controversial) solutions he might have. He did say (to disliked Inquisitor) that he's grown weary of not being heeded and that in time it grinds away - so it may be that he just learned to not say much, as he thinks that people wouldn't consider his ideas anyway.

 

Also, don't forget his long banter with Sera - how he lectures her about what to do with Jennies, how she should eliminate forces that are acting only to cause chaos and replace them with those who will do the hard work of establishing new order. He's also baffled at her not thinking about the actions of her organization in the long run, or any sort of long-term goals and just seems to want to have fun.

 

Aside from that, through the entire length of the game, Solas establishes himself as someone who is all about thinking ahead and looking at a big picture. So I'd say he does have some ideas and solutions, but there's really not much he can share without giving away his 'ancient elfy'/'Dread Wolfy' status, because the keys to his solutions likely lie beyond understanding or acceptance of most people in modern Thedas.

[Aren]

 

 

Flemeth wanted to stop the Blight but not at the expense of the continued existence of the old god.   I can only think that  Solas disapproves of their actions in killing the old gods to stop the Blight instead of trying to find an alternative, which as we know does exist.    It is the Warden's quick fix approach to problems that I think he dislikes.    Using Flemeth's ritual means the spirit of the old god is preserved and presumably retains something of its identity, whereas with the Wardens' method, even if the soul isn't totally destroyed as they think (because the old god has a spirit essence that returns to the Fade), it loses its sense of identity, just as his friend did.

 

So to a large extent I think Solas might simply have been in agreement with Morrigan's words; that humans are too quick to destroy things they don't fully understand and in so doing remove much that is wondrous from the world, leaving simply the mundane.    

What the GW (especially Corin,Loris,Gharael,Mhariel) do with their Sacrifice is commendable,preserve them and risk another blight leaded by the same Archdemon is a no no for the world not just for the Wardens,and yes i do believe that with their sacrifice they completely kill the old gods, they do not return into the fade they are destroyed.

It,s easy for Flemeth or maybe Solas to speak about preserving things,but when this have already caused massive destruction and are still a potential threat the best alternative is to eliminate them completly with the sacrifice of senior Warden,instead to preserve them and risk another blight with the same AD just because they  consider them to be worthy to be preserved,The GW do not care and i agree with them,security have priority.

[Ulv Elskeren]

It's possible from Solas' perspective- and perhaps from the wider one- that blights are not The Problem.  They're *a* problem, yes, and one that would've wiped out life as we know it multiple times were it not for the Wardens.  But at this point there's a fair amount of evidence there may be a driving force behind the blight that poses an even more serious risk to Thedas' existence than the blights themselves, and that killing the Old Gods while they slept would help, not hinder, that being's plan.  

 

Of course, that doesn't absolve Solas from being a jerk about the whole thing.  The whole "I tried to tell the Dalish the truth, but nobody believed me" thing doesn't mean he gets to stop trying, particularly if letting the Wardens blithely go about their business would be as disastrous as he suggests. 

 

It's shortsighted and a bit petty, but as Varric says... "No story is dramatic if the people in it act sensibly."

[The Oracle]

I'll admit, Solas did annoy me a bit with his dismissal of the Grey Wardens.

 

"They've bought us some time," I'm sure he said in one of this companion dialogue lines. I wonder if Solas has ever seen a Blight, outside of what the Fade mirrors? The mass swarm of death that rampages the land, sickening  everything in it's wake. Would he have preferred to wake up to a land covered in Darkspawn and the Taint instead? Would he just then deride how all the idiots about him seemed to fight back so ineffectually?

 

He snidely points out that the Grey Wardens have made no progress on finding a stop for the Blight, and then freaks out about them attempting to stop the Blight. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there plan was a good idea at all. Blood Magic + Obviously Evil Magister + Demons = Horrendous Idea. He may well have some great meta knowledge on the consequences, but how can you then call the Warden's fools for not? Oh sorry, should they just wait around for fantastically knowledgeable Ancient Elvhen God to wander up to them and explain, without providing a viable alternative, how they're sacrifices for hundreds of years have been in vain?

 

It does smack of some of his worst traits.

[RoraM]

There's a mod that gets rid of Solas' freckles D:

 

And also adds huge eyebrows.

 

WHY WOULD ANYONE GET RID OF HIS FRECKLES?!  

[Garnet]

Solas slightly disapproves if you bring up the demon aspect, dismissing it as irrelevant. That tells me that he really just hates the plan, and would hate it even if the Wardens' methods were clean/safe.

 

I do not think you even need to covet the Old Gods to hate the plan, either. The Old Gods' calling controls the Darkspawn, compels them to search underground to dig out the next one. If you kill the Old Gods, you are, in effect, removing what chains them and nobody -- perhaps not even Solas or Flemeth -- know what the outcome of that will be.

 

Which brings us to the next issue -- what progress have the Wardens made, really? They stop Blights -- which is obviously helpful -- but have they any solution for what comes after the last Archdemon is slain, or are they just wishing that will be the end of it?

 

I know Solas doesn't mind the demon aspect. (That part surprised me after everything he said about twisting spirits from their purpose.) I meant to say that he disliked their rushing to find a conclusion. Something that would outright end the blight, without thinking of the consequences. As Solas says, "Those fools and duty. Responsibility is not expertise. Action is not inherently superior to inaction." and that the entire idea is unnerving. The demon thing was more of my own opinion. Such a bad idea! (Am I making sense? I'm not very good with words. ) And I agree that it's a terrible plan to set free the darkspawn from what potentially compels them to stay underground. (I am assuming.)

[drosophila]

I don't really think that's the case. People don't really want to listen to him, much less to (controversial) solutions he might have.

 

We don't know what he had tried to say. I think people not wanting to listen to him is in part his own fault, though. In part. Nobody will want to listen if you open your statements with negativity and criticism, and his party banter with Dorian and Iron Bull makes me think he often did so. The tone he uses with them is so damning, so negative, without having tried to get to know them at all. There is even this one party banter with Dorian:

 

Dorian: Solas, have I offended you?

Solas: If you have, why would it concern you?

Dorian: Because we're here working together for a common cause, and because I respect your abilities.

Solas: My abilities as a mage.

Dorian: Well, I... realize there's more to you than that.

Solas: The differences between us are not technicalities to be discarded, Dorian.

Dorian: I... was hoping we might find common ground, that's all.

 

I understand whenever he is overly negative is someone, it must be because of his great sorrow and bitterness, and I feel deeply for him. I also recognize that later on he softens a little, especially towards IB. But I can also see how the way he treats some people must've alienated many potential allies.

 

Also, don't forget his long banter with Sera - how he lectures her about what to do with Jennies, how she should eliminate forces that are acting only to cause chaos and replace them with those who will do the hard work of establishing new order. He's also baffled at her not thinking about the actions of her organization in the long run, or any sort of long-term goals and just seems to want to have fun.

 

That's a good point, though I always wondered if the advice he gives her in that banter stems from mistakes he has himself made in the past. 

 

 

Aside from that, through the entire length of the game, Solas establishes himself as someone who is all about thinking ahead and looking at a big picture. 

 

Not so sure about that. If he does think ahead, he's not doing it very well. Giving the Orb to Cory resulted in a mess. Even his plan when he joined the Inquisition failed, in a sense. Sure, we defeated Cory and sealed the Breach, but he never got his Orb back.  

[midnight tea]

We don't know what he had tried to say. I think people not wanting to listen to him is in part his own fault, though. In part. Nobody will want to listen if you open your statements with negativity and criticism, and his party banter with Dorian and Iron Bull makes me think he often did so. The tone he uses with them is so damning, so negative, without having tried to get to know them at all. There is even this one party banter with Dorian:

 

Dorian: Solas, have I offended you?

Solas: If you have, why would it concern you?

Dorian: Because we're here working together for a common cause, and because I respect your abilities.

Solas: My abilities as a mage.

Dorian: Well, I... realize there's more to you than that.

Solas: The differences between us are not technicalities to be discarded, Dorian.

Dorian: I... was hoping we might find common ground, that's all.

 

I understand whenever he is overly negative is someone, it must be because of his great sorrow and bitterness, and I feel deeply for him. I also recognize that later own he softens a little, especially towards IB. But I can also see how the way he treats some people must've alienated many potential allies.

 

Well no, in this particular case I don't think Solas was overly-critical or negative, he simply pointed out a certain flaw in Dorian's thinking.

Don't get me wrong - I love that Dorian tries to find common ground with everyone. It's a great thing to start building meaningful friendships/relationships on. But I think Dorian also has some tendency to sweep things under the rug IF he finds that one common thing with people he can cling to - like, he doesn't even seem to consider that things he said earlier to Solas about spirits might offend him greatly. What matters is that they both are mages and fight on the same side - the 'technicalities', like ownership of slaves or treatment of spirits... well, let's not talk about that, shall we?

 

 

 

That's a good point, though I always wondered if the advice he gives her in that banter stems from mistakes he has himself made in the past. 

 

I don't think he's made the very same mistake Sera's doing though - I think he channels advice for her from his very own experience, not just 'explorations of the Fade', obviously ;P

And I think what she said to him at the end of this banter ("What, just lop off the top? What does that do, except make a new top to frig it all up?") might have hit a very soft spot, because Solas was likely involved in establishing a system or order that eventually ended up being as bad as the previous one.

You can hear just how vulnerable he was, right before he backs away and just declares Sera to be fine as she is. It's like for that one moment all his guilt resurfaced and hit him in the face like a hammer

 

 

 

Not so sure about that. If he does think ahead, he's not doing it very well. Giving the Orb to Cory resulted in a mess. Even his plan when he join the Inquisition failed, in a sense. Sure, we defeated Cory and sealed the breach, but he never got his Orb back.  

 

We don't yet know what happened and how he actually "gave the orb to Corypheus" - he obviously thinks it was a mistake and he blames himself for it, but we just don't know how backed to the wall he was or how powerless to stop Cory he was when it happened. We also don't know how certain he was that he'll get the Orb back after all this kerfuffle with the Breach - it might be that the chance for that was slim to begin with. He does say to IQ after all "With luck, some of the past may yet survive."

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[The Oracle]

Thank you. This was beauty and truth.

 

You replied with Cumberbatch. You're more than welcome. 

[drosophila]

Well no, in this particular case I don't think Solas was overly-critical or negative, he simply pointed out a certain flaw in Dorian's thinking.

Don't get me wrong - I love that Dorian tries to find common ground with everyone. It's a great thing to start building meaningful friendships/relationships on. But I think Dorian also has some tendency to sweep things under the rug IF he finds that one common thing with people he can cling to - like, he doesn't even seem to consider that things he said earlier to Solas about spirits might offend him greatly. What matters is that they both are mages and fight on the same side - the 'technicalities', like ownership of slaves or treatment of spirits... well, let's not talk about that, shall we?

 

If you just listen to the tone of his voice in any conversation with Vivienne, Iron Bull (before friendship), and Dorian - he never simply points out flaws in their thinking, he is being aggressive, antagonistic. Compare that to the tone he uses when speaking with Varric and Cassandra. He points out disagreements, but his voice is softer, more respectful. With Cole, his voice goes even softer, he has affection for him and is protective, the one companion he considers a friend. I don't think these differences in the voice acting are a coincidence, I think they mean to convey his attitude. 

 

I agree, they have some very real, important differences, but I find Dorian's approach to dealing with that much more effective. Why not start by finding common ground, building a positive relationship and then using that to convince the other person not that something is very wrong but that things would be so much better if they changed something? What if instead of the way Solas acted in this conversation, he had said, "Dorian, I agree, we have a few things in common. You're a skilled, powerful mage who always wants to learn more and I have great respect for that. Now, what you said earlier about spirits having no free will..."

 

 

And I think what she said to him at the end of this banter ("What, just lop off the top? What does that do, except make a new top to frig it all up?") might have hit a very soft spot, because Solas was likely involved in establishing a system or order that eventually ended up being as bad as the previous one.

 

I think that too. 

 

 

We don't yet know what happened and how he actually "gave the orb to Corypheus" - he obviously thinks it was a mistake and he blames himself for it, but we just don't know how backed to the wall he was or how powerless to stop Cory he was when it happened. We also don't know how certain he was that he'll get the Orb back after all this kerfuffle with the Breach - it might be that the chance for that was slim to begin with. He does say to IQ after all "With luck, some of the past may yet survive."

 

He said something at some point that suggested he believed Cory would've died when he unlocked the power of the Orb. I can't remember exactly when and what it was, though.

[Elessara]

 'Appreciate all the thoughtful responses. Do not mind me while I reply/clarify this:

 

Anyone can say anyone makes good points about anything, but it really does not tell me much about what you think. You can say [x] makes good points, and mean it, yet hold an opinion ranging anywhere from: "His word is gospel and I completely accept anything he says anyway no matter what I think because all praise the Dread Wolf!" to "In my careful assessment of the matter, he is 100% correct," to "He has the right ideas, for the most part, but a few things he thinks are not accurate," to "He is right, for the wrong reasons," to "I do not know; he says some things I agree with but I do not really know overall," to "I can kinda/sorta agree with some of the things he is saying, but I mostly disagree," to "his opinions are garbage." It does not narrow things down very much at all.
 
(And YES, it *is* possible to think someone whose opinions are garbage can make good points in their favor. I can think of various ideologies that have some strong points behind them but that I still think are ridiculous at the end of the day and basically altogether garbage. Think of it like a polished turd. I will not deny the polished nature of it, if it is there, but that is a long ways away from me thinking it is a diamond or anything other than turd).

 

So for the intents and purposes of my request, f*** agreeableness. Break down his opinion and judge it for the sum of all parts.

 

If you are incapable of such an exercise, please move along.

 

It honestly sounded as though you were saying just the act of agreeing with Solas was a cop out and I was wondering why.  That's all.  As this is not the case and you are honestly asking for opinions then fine.

 

I both agree and disagree with Solas.  I dislike the wardens' secrecy, not just to the rest of Thedas but within their own ranks.  I also dislike that the wardens don't look for alternatives.  Yes they have a "solution" to the archdemon problem.  They have this one thing that works (or has worked so far) so they don't appear to be looking for other ways to deal with the problem.

 

I disagree with Solas because, as others have said, he offers no explanation as to why he's so unnerved by the wardens' plans to preemptively kill the old gods nor does he offer any alternatives to what the wardens have been doing.  Also, Solas can be something of a hypocrite.  He appears to not approve of the wardens' "ends justify the means" attitude and yet at times he appears to have almost the same attitude.

[The Oracle]

Solas speaks with the authority of someone who has always been listened to, without question. He approves when you ask questions, but does not approve when you question him directly. I would love to have found out what he said to the Dalish, upon meeting them. 

 

"Hello. I'm Solas. Oh, I see you are wearing the ancient slave markings as some twisted form of remembrance of the past. That's wrong and horrible. You need to stop doing that. The Gods you like were most likely sh*theads. Proof? Oh, well I've been in the Fade and seen it. Trust me. Here, let me wipe of all your markings while I list more of your failures."

 

Don't get me wrong. I love Solas and I know the struggles of trying to be reasonable and even-minded when faced with twisted lies and blurred facts brandished as truth. However, one does not sway with derision and lectures. Something Solas has a hard time coming to terms with.

[Elessara]

Solas speaks with the authority of someone who has always been listened to, without question. He approves when you ask questions, but does not approve when you question him directly. I would love to have found out what he said to the Dalish, upon meeting them. 

 

"Hello. I'm Solas. Oh, I see you are wearing the ancient slave markings as some twisted form of remembrance of the past. That's wrong and horrible. You need to stop doing that. The Gods you like were most likely sh*theads. Proof? Oh, well I've been in the Fade and seen it. Trust me. Here, let me wipe of all your markings while I list more of your failures."

 

Don't get me wrong. I love Solas and I know the struggles of trying to be reasonable and even-minded when faced with twisted lies and blurred facts brandished as truth. However, one does not sway with derision and lectures. Something Solas has a hard time coming to terms with.

 

Hah!  Well I don't know that Solas would have been that upfront about things (when is he ever?) but otherwise I agree.  He does have this air of authority.  Not that he wants to lead but that he knows things and is very accustomed to offering advice and having that advice listened to.

[midnight tea]

If you just listen to the tone of his voice in any conversation with Vivienne, Iron Bull (before friendship), and Dorian - he never simply points out flaws in their thinking, he is being aggressive, antagonistic. Compare that to the tone he uses when speaking with Varric and Cassandra. He points out disagreements, but his voice is softer, more respectful. With Cole, his voice goes even softer, he has affection for him and is protective, the one companion he considers a friend. I don't think these differences in the voice acting are a coincidence, I think they mean to convey his attitude. 

 

Oh, I agree that he can be aggressive and antagonistic, as well as unfair, but it's still not something that happens at all times - it's mostly when biggest disagreements or things that bother him resurface at some point during other banters (they're not as random as they may seem), so the negativity - at least in his head - isn't there without good reasons.

 

 

 

He said something at some point that suggested he believed Cory would've died when he unlocked the power of the Orb. I can't remember exactly when and what it was, though.

 

"I never would have believed a Tevinter mage could unlock such powerful relic.It clearly enhances his abilities, giving him access to power he should never had known."

 

Seems to me that Solas didn't just think that Cory would die IF he unlocked the orb (which suggests that he himself may not know what's the extent of Blight's power), but that he didn't think Corypheus would be able to unlock the Orb in the first place... Which is likely why he might have initially believed that he may be able to recover it, even if it was stolen/taken.

 

I mean, let's face it - if he, (presumably) an ancient elvhen god, was too weak to unlock HIS Orb (even if the reason he was weakened was his long slumber), then how come a mere darkspawn magister with no knowledge what the Orb was could? That is... unless.. Corypheus has someone who helped him do it? ....Why can't I help to think that Mythal was involved in this?