153429 réponses à ce sujet

[drosophila]

I'm generally wary of  first person narrative, be it fanfiction or not - I mean, just like everything, it CAN be done well, but in general it tends to break my suspension of disbelief way more often (I'm in this weird spot when I can never tell whether I'm supposed to observe what is happening right now through narrator's eyes or is this all his/her memories - timeline seems to be way more muddled up - as well as whether I'm supposed to directly spy on narrator's thoughts, or the piece of writing's implicating that this is all happening to ME ).

 

That's an interesting perspective. When I read something written in 1st person, I kind of assume it's the narrator telling me what happened to them. It can be very intimate to read it, as if someone is sharing all their innermost thoughts and experiences... and that's what I think makes it more difficult to do it right. If I'm reading it and the narrator is being superficial, not revealing enough, even the embarrasing details, about what they thought or saw, it feels like a conversation with someone who's not being honest and open. I've never written in 1st person, but it's probably really tough to identify with a character to that extent. 

[Ulv Elskeren]

@MoonDreamer01

 

There is a canticle that discusses it in WoT but the short version is that the Gods went silent THEN they started hearing whispers asking them to go to the city. Each of magisters appears to have been a high priest of each of the old gods - dumat(Corybear), Urthemiel(The Architect of Beauty), Razikale etc. 

 

Corypheus became obsessed with reaching his gods. He had begun to doubt. His faith was shaken.  The Architect went to him and came up with a plan and a way to breach the Fade and enter the Golden City.  Corypheus - the Conductor - brought the priests together desperate to do this because he needed affirmation that his God was real. He wanted to serve. He wanted to show Dumat he was the most faithful.  The Architect was hesitant.  The rest of the magisters - from the canticle - appeared to have  agreed because they thought it would bring them power. 

 

They didn't believe in the Maker.  That came after their time with Andraste.  She was born after the first blight which only occurred after the Magisters breached the Golden City.  The question is - was the city ever gold?  Corypheus said when he got there the city was black and the throne was empty. So where did the whispers come from? Where did they go, really? What is the Black City? What was the throne?

 

Er, wait.  Do we know the Old Gods actually went silent pre-City-expedition?  In DAI, Corypheus claims he and the other priests went there to serve their Gods in the flesh- and only sought to take their place once they arrived to find the City black and corrupt and the throne of the Gods empty.   The Claws of Dumat codex also describes Corypheus' motivation as his concern that the temples were weakening and "losing followers" and that the priests were trying to "return Tevinter to the ways of the Old Gods, as is only just".   The servant goes so far as to claim Corypheus "listens only to the voices in his dreams"- so clearly, nothing as drastic as the Old Gods falling silent.  What little evidence we have from the Canticle of Silence and codices of the time seems to suggest that the Gods were still very much in contact with the priests, right up to the breach.  

 

Also, given that the Cult of the Maker preexisted Andraste, it may very well have been the Old Gods' unnamed competition in Tevinter.  There's a ton of lore we don't know yet, but I think the above may give the wrong impression about the few things we do.

[Caddius]

There's a lot of infuriating contradictions about the state of the Old Gods leading up to the Black City Assault. Personally, I think it's safe to dismiss the versions that have it as them breaking into what they think is the Maker's stronghold. Either they were searching for a golden light and power, as directed by Dumat, (Legacy) and were betrayed, or they were trying to establish contact with their gods and serve them in person after they went silent and the religion was weakening (Inquisition). Either way, Corypheus refers to it pretty consistently as the 'throne of the gods', and I think we even have some Codex entries that say that Tevinter thought the Old Gods hung out in the Golden City and the Fade in general.

It's very curious that both elven and human religion didn't ascribe the gods they worshiped as the Creator. The proto-Maker figure in Tevinter and the Sun and Earth in Arlathan. (Or maybe just the Dalish. )

There's apparently a few songs in World of Thedas about how Maker-worship was replaced with Old God worship among the Planasene and Neromenian peoples. 

I'm guessing that the decline of the Old Gods was equal parts just the gradual evolution of the Imperium's power structure. A lot of secular, power-hungry Magisters that weren't devoted to one of the Old Gods gathering more political power. I don't think proto-Maker worship was that popular at that time in the Imperium. But who knows? *shrug* 

Apparently Dreamers started to stop appearing after the Black City Assault? Are Corypheus and the Architect Dreamers? Why would that cause Dreamers to stop? And why have they started coming back?

 

Also, what's this about the WoT suggesting that the Architect went to Corypheus to suggest the plan? I thought it was the other way around? I don't have it, and I always appreciate more Magister goodness...

[midnight tea]

That's an interesting perspective. When I read something written in 1st person, I kind of assume it's the narrator telling me what happened to them. It can be very intimate to read it, as if someone is sharing all their innermost thoughts and experiences... and that's what I think makes it more difficult to do it right. If I'm reading it and the narrator is being superficial, not revealing enough, even the embarrasing details, about what they thought or saw, it feels like a conversation with someone who's not being honest and open. I've never written in 1st person, but it's probably really tough to identify with a character to that extent. 

 

Well, aside from identifying, I'm not really sure how comfortable I feel about kind of directly reading narrators's mind (even if this is all about fictional story), though I realize this is entirely my personal opinion. Still, the thing about our innermost thoughts is that they're not necessarily well-organized or coherent. We certainly don't really narrate our lives or experiences the way 1st person pieces oftentimes do, hence my internal confusion whether we're supposed to be witnessing things happening at the very moment or a memoir. It feels too artificial, especially if it's supposed to be the former, IMO.

 

I mean, the 2nd person or omniscient narrator can also be easily called artificial, but at least in that regard I can kind of imagine it either as a free-flying camera or someone who meticulously documents what happened/happens in the story. Even the 'invasion' into character's head feels less, um... voyeuristic?, in a sense that I have insight to the most intimate thoughts, but at the same time it doesn't really break the barrier between a character (or a writer) and myself. I can fully empathize or sympathize, but not necessarily self-insert.

[Cee]

Well, aside from identifying, I'm not really sure how comfortable I feel about kind of directly reading narrators's mind (even if this is all about fictional story), though I realize this is entirely my personal opinion. Still, the thing about our innermost thoughts is that they're not necessarily well-organized or coherent. We certainly don't really narrate our lives or experiences the way 1st person pieces oftentimes do, hence my internal confusion whether we're supposed to be witnessing things happening at the very moment or a memoir. It feels too artificial, especially if it's supposed to be the former, IMO.

 

We do have a tendency to tell personal stories to others in this way. "So guess what happened to me. I did this and that and something else" etc, so it's natural to me but it's harder to get right in telling an effective story that feels grounded and realistic and functional. It definitely feels more personal, but can be harder to balance.

[Avejajed]

This is to Caddius and those discussing lore: (Sorry I got between all the fanfiction talk)

 

I'm of the mind that we really have absolutely no idea what really happened. I think everybody has their own interpretation of what happened through the years- but I don't think anyone has any idea, except maybe Solas.

 

We know what the Magisters were told. But they dreamed it or some nonsense, easily manipulated, the "Old Gods" may not have even existed like they were imagined. We know what legend tells us- but legend is often wrong, either mistaken completely, or also manipulated by time or by the teller. We know what Chantry history tells us, but they would easily spin a tale to benefit themselves.

 

I think whatever happened- it's totally unexpected. Whatever the true story is about the golden city, the black city, the gods, the blight, whatever- I don't think there's any "fact" I would trust. 

[drosophila]

Well, aside from identifying, I'm not really sure how comfortable I feel about kind of directly reading narrators's mind (even if this is all about fictional story), though I realize this is entirely my personal opinion. Still, the thing about our innermost thoughts is that they're not necessarily well-organized or coherent. We certainly don't really narrate our lives or experiences the way 1st person pieces oftentimes do, hence my internal confusion whether we're supposed to be witnessing things happening at the very moment or a memoir. It feels too artificial, especially if it's supposed to be the former, IMO.

 

You're right, thoughts are not always well-organized or coherent, even for the most well-organized and coherent person. I personally assume it's a memoir, or a story being told to me, but that the narrator did some "organizing" of their experience, before it reached me. I'm fine with, actually I want them to share their innermost thoughts with me. I guess I'm a people person like that, but it's definitely personal preference, and while I might be interested in reading about a character that's not very likeable in 3rd person, I would not be able to put up with them in 1st person. 

 

 

We do have a tendency to tell personal stories to others in this way. "So guess what happened to me. I did this and that and something else" etc, so it's natural to me but it's harder to get right in telling an effective story that feels grounded and realistic and functional. It definitely feels more personal, but can be harder to balance.

 

^Basically, this.

 

I mean, the 2nd person or omniscient narrator can also be easily called artificial, but at least in that regard I can kind of imagine it either as a free-flying camera or someone who meticulously documents what happened/happens in the story. Even the 'invasion' into character's head feels less, um... voyeuristic?, in a sense that I have insight to the most intimate thoughts, but at the same time it doesn't really break the barrier between a character (or a writer) and myself. I can fully empathize or sympathize, but not necessarily self-insert.

 

2nd person just doesn't work for me. **It's all my personal preference, so don't take it like I'm judging anyone who likes it or writes that way. And who knows, I might change my mind some day.**

 

First of all, it's almost never used in literature, so it can feel a bit gimmicky. I'm generally wary of any writing that messes with the basic "format" of writing, I prefer to focus on the story itself, not on how it's written. Second, I dislike anyone telling me what I'm doing, "You walk into the room and feed Leliana's baby nugs." Really? What if I don't like nugs? Who are you to tell me to feed them? 

 

Again, it's just my preference.

[midnight tea]

We do have a tendency to tell personal stories to others in this way. "So guess what happened to me. I did this and that and something else" etc, so it's natural to me but it's harder to get right in telling an effective story that feels grounded and realistic and functional. It definitely feels more personal, but can be harder to balance.

 

Yes, but we do have a tendency to tell a story, after the events for that story actually happened It's basically an eyewitness testimony and not something in this vague spot when I'm not sure whether things are happening now or we're told about them after they happened.  

 

Also - there's a question of agency. The story someone tells me after the fact, I feel is fully willingly shared with us, while I'm not really sure this happens to all characters, fictional as they can be. Depending on the writer, it can feel too raw and too intimate, especially if they go to, say, excruciating or unnecessary detail while - say - describing either an intimate or action scene. This is why, when I actually read or watch 1st person story (like Life Of Pi or Forrest Gump or Interview With A Vampire) I prefer when it's initially framed as an interview or just something the character starts to tell another person.

 

It's also true that it can be hard to tell story that is very directly fixed to one, very biased and limited POV - in that way, it's interesting, because if used well, it can make a compelling point about, say, human subjectivity, but IMO it does require some superb writing chops to be done well, especially when someone wants to tell a long, complex story that way.

[drosophila]

IMO it does require some superb writing chops to be done well

 

Yeah, it all comes down to this, really, kudos to anyone who pulls it off. 

[Cee]

We can tell stories in first person after they happened. Autobiographies, for instance, but it also works for fiction as well. It's important that, in fiction, we get a sense of when a story is taking place, as I said, it needs to feel grounded. Though exceptions exist, such as unreliable narrators, but usually an author won't spill that hand until later and then we can question everything.

 

Goodness knows how we've dissected Solas' dialogue to Thedas and back by now. Speaking of (somewhat) unreliable narrators telling stories.

[Avejajed]

i don't have a preference between first, second, fifth, eight, whatever person. It's just fanfiction. It's not mean to be the next great novel. Whatever makes the writer most comfortable is peachy with me. Fanfiction is always just there for fun or whatever. I try not to take it too serious.

[midnight tea]

i don't have a preference between first, second, fifth, eight, whatever person. It's just fanfiction. It's not mean to be the next great novel. Whatever makes the writer most comfortable is peachy with me. Fanfiction is always just there for fun or whatever. I try not to take it too serious.

 

I was talking about writing and narration in general in last couple of comments Though I'm not sure I agree that 'fanfiction is just fanfiction' just like 'fanart is just fanart' - be it fanart or original art, either can be done 'just for fun', but also can be serious about quality of work.

 

Hence I generally enjoy things that are done well, be it 'original art' or 'fanart' - although what's 'done well' is of course a matter of personal opinion.

[The Oracle]

I've read Keeping Secrets and while I enjoy it, I think I may have enjoyed it more if it was written in the third person. I can get into it for a while, but then it'll say "You look up at Solas..." or "You wonder..." etc. and I kinda get kicked out. Mainly due to the fact that the character of Emma slightly annoys me, which I'm perfectly fine with as a main character in the third person, but then it's narrated like I'm "her" and I really have nothing in common, personality wise, with the character.

 

Anyhoo, I read a good number of chapters so I'm kinda tempted to continue reading it as I hate leaving things unfinished, especially stories.

[electricfish]

I'm a little bit late for the magister discussion, but I'd like to add a correction to Kissiebear's post about the magisters hearing whispers.

 

According to the Canticle of Silence (pages 58-60 in WoT vol. 2), the whispers of the Old Gods actually stopped being heard by the faithful AFTER the magisters breached the Golden City. After being scolded and cast out by the Maker, even.

Specifically in the Canticle, it was the one acolyte who decided not to follow through with the ritual who still heard the whisperings of the Old Gods, up until he got to Minrathous and the magisters were being kicked out of the Fade.

[BoscoBread]

Solas fanart from Rabbit as seen on vhenantrash

 

Spoiler

 

Regarding the magisters. I dunno - that was what I thought but I'm not near any books right now. I'm going to go with my thing though because...sadder since it implies Cory's faith was manipulated.  

[DarthEmpress]

Solas fanart from Rabbit as seen on vhenantrash

 

Spoiler

 

Regarding the magisters. I dunno - that was what I thought but I'm not near any books right now. I'm going to go with my thing though because...sadder since it implies Cory's faith was manipulated.  

 

It's beautiful and I cried 

[Avejajed]

So all I can think is that someone purposely drove the magisters into the golden city, specifically manipulating them and their faith with the intent on causing the blight somehow.

Like, they knew what the result would be and that was the intent. Hence the whispers stopping once the deed was done.

[Elessara]

Also, I would take the Canticles with a few grains of salt.  All of this stuff is written with Andrastianism in mind and looooong after the events themselves took place.  So there is probably historical relevance but perhaps not accuracy.

[Sable Rhapsody]

On topic:

Also, I would take the Canticles with a few grains of salt.  All of this stuff is written with Andrastianism in mind and looooong after the events themselves took place.  So there is probably historical relevance but perhaps not accuracy.

Not Silence. That Canticle was eventually banned for being too pro-Tevinter and politically motivated. The irony being that since it's Tevinter in origin, it may be the closest to what actually happened.
 
Off-topic: Happy Birthday, HP Lovecraft!  You wacky, imaginative, racist bastard.

[Elessara]

On topic:

Not Silence. That Canticle was eventually banned for being too pro-Tevinter and politically motivated. The irony being that since it's Tevinter in origin, it may be the closest to what actually happened.
 
Off-topic: Happy Birthday, HP Lovecraft!  You wacky, imaginative, racist bastard.

 

Interesting ... but when was it written?  I can't imagine a canticle in the chant of light was written before Andraste was even born.  It's possible the writer tried to be too historically accurate and that's what people had a problem with?

[electricfish]

Interesting ... but when was it written?  I can't imagine a canticle in the chant of light was written before Andraste was even born.  It's possible the writer tried to be too historically accurate and that's what people had a problem with?

 

The earliest known written Canticle of Silence was created roughly 200 years after the event it described. For those of you who like timelines, that's Transfiguration -160 Ancient. Written by Archon Hessarian, but thrown out of the official Chantry canon when a Divine thought it was too much pro-Tevinter propaganda, and pro-bloodbath for the big regime change at the time.

[Rabbitonfire]

I drew this fan comic about you ladies. Not you though. Or you... That crazy one in the corner. You.

 

http://vhenantrash.t...the-hinterlands

 

Actually, it's an old joke on this thread several months ago.

[Abelis]

I've been lurking in this thread for so long (damn you dread  wolf!), and enjoying tremendously,  always too shy to take part in.   Was wondering..

Solas was one of the last LIs added to the game, - if deadline and budget were not extended,  we would never see that side of him -  yet he seems so loved (or maybe its me that Im so stuck with him, but i think he has made his LI power known and well established, he has a very active and passionate fandom ).

I remember before playing the game, I read a review of all possible LIs in DAI and I was kinda sad, cause I liked noone as they were presented.

But playing through DAI, I was never so overwhelmed by a game character before. It was a slow fall for him as I got to know his character (these are the worst - the longer it takes you to fall, the longer it takes to be forgotten).

He is not following you as a one dimensioned generic game hero/companion wanting to find the love of his life that he hasn't experienced so far in his life,  in the protagonist of the game and then live happily ever after.
His character seemed so much "gray" (chaotic good with a slight touch of neutral I'd say for you who are into tabletops) and complicated as a real being could be.

Reluctant to share his true inner feelings/thoughts for his own reasons (with a good reason it seems ) which he wont show even when you get close to him, but doesn't give himself in and abandons everything he is, just cause you are the protagonist of this game - makes you wonder what you are to him, who he really is inside of his mind and what is that truly would make him happy - (I guess he is the one who has the indomitable focus )

With a mind of his own, he even leaves you with no explanation - my first time in a game ive been dumped and it was intriguing and refreshing this "why would he do this", he has a past that he keeps silent till the end that he wont share cause of implications that run through his mind - that you have to meta game consider to understand - , he shows so much wisdom in his words and that keep you intrigued and initiate you to question what you should take for granted..
In the end, his ingame appearance seemed so indulging (and so sexy ) because of his character after i got to know him..
 

So, to quit my rumbling, I wanted to ask..
What is it that makes a LI so overwhelming in a game, as he is?
What was it for you that made him so special?

 

(PS sorry for my english, one of the reasons i dont take part in forum discussion, if s'thing not clear, ill be happy to elaborate)

[FrankWisdom]

I'm a little bit late for the magister discussion, but I'd like to add a correction to Kissiebear's post about the magisters hearing whispers.

 

According to the Canticle of Silence (pages 58-60 in WoT vol. 2), the whispers of the Old Gods actually stopped being heard by the faithful AFTER the magisters breached the Golden City. After being scolded and cast out by the Maker, even.

Specifically in the Canticle, it was the one acolyte who decided not to follow through with the ritual who still heard the whisperings of the Old Gods, up until he got to Minrathous and the magisters were being kicked out of the Fade.

 

 

This is why it would make sense that those who "whispered" manipulated the Magisters by appealing to their pride and arrogance. Those that claimed to be the Old Gods were actually imprisoned in the Golden City, which is why Corypheus said "I found only chaos and corruption, dead whispers, for a thousand years I was confused, no more." I'm inclined to believe that he unleashed "The Forgotten Ones" who are actually the ones who were whispering. Once they were freed, they had no need to whisper.

 

Here's a quote from Geldauran, one of "the Forgotten Ones" talking about the Elvhen Pantheon

 

"Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery."

 

I'd also contend that they needed the Magisters to come into The Fade physically not only to breach the Golden City, but also in order to have hosts (physical vehicles) with which to cross the veil back into Thedas (the physical world) much like parasites. I believe the blight stems from them and the reason darkspawn search for the "Old Gods" (Great Dragons) is because they (The Old Gods) are in fact The Elvhen Pantheon's bodies or physical representations of them. They are said to be sleeping because they are in a type of forced Uthenera and their spirits are locked away in another dimension (probably somewhere in The Fade, but not necessarily) only accessible through the eluvians. Given what we know of the antagonistic relationship between the Elvhen Pantheon and "The Forgotten Ones", we could understand the motivations behind such actions as well as the irony found within them. I also believe the veil was created to secure and imprison the Elvhen Pantheons' "essence" while keeping them separated from their bodies. I believe this is why Solas is so concerned and appalled when the Grey Wardens mention slaying all of the remaining Old Gods to prevent the blights.

 

Conversations between Solas and Cole seem to allude to this

 

Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting and to wake them... (Gasp) where did it go?

 

Solas: I apologize, Cole. That is not a pain you can heal.

 

(Cole refers to the Elvhen gods, masking or masked from their true aspects in an eluvian, sleeping and suffering. When he says where did it go, he refers to Solas' pain which Solas in turn confirms by stating that Cole cannot heal it. This is quite interesting. It would seem that the Elvhen god's might not be imprisoned in the Golden city, as I suspect, but rather in a realm reached only through an eluvian).

 

Cole: "He hurts, an old pain from before when everything sang the same" (before the veil?)

 

Cole: "You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything. But it can't."

 

(I think this is a reference to him being physically present after the veil was created, as in bonded with Solas like FleMythal. With this knowledge, he could help his brethren do the same, however, if he does, then things will become what they were and Fen'Harel can't allow that, despite the love he holds for his kin. This potentially adds weight to my theory about the spirit/physical separation of the Pantheon)

 

So when an Archdemon is awakened, it's actually a Forgotten One who takes control by usurping an Elvhen god's body, corrupting it from within.

[drosophila]

I've been lurking in this thread for so long (damn you dread  wolf!), and enjoying tremendously,  always too shy to take part in.

 

Aneth ara! Fade hugs!

 

 

 

It was a slow fall for him as I got to know his character (these are the worst - the longer it takes you to fall, the longer it takes to be forgotten).

 

That's how it was for me as well, at first I thought he was just this fade-obsessed weirdo. 

 

 

 What is it that makes a LI so overwhelming in a game, as he is? What was it for you that made him so special?

 

What happened? The quote tags have gone mad with power! And I somehow edited out my previous response OK, let's try to remember it...

 

For me it's that he has to live with so much regret. He's had the strength to accept he's made a big mistake in the past, but he doesn't stop there. He's still actively trying to fix at least some things, even though things will never be exactly the way they were again, and I don't believe he'll ever be free of pain and remorse. 

 

Also he's very secretive, which I find tantalizing. He's not an open book and you have to analyze everything he says. 

 

Finally, his beliefs in "cause and effect" and "wisdom as its own reward" match mine, though I'd never seen them so beautifully expressed before I started this game. 

 

He's such a multi-faceted character that I could write pages about what makes him special ( and that's part of what we do in this thread, I guess   ), but the above are my top three reasons.

 

As a fellow non-native Englisher, you're doing great! Practice with us!