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[midnight tea]

That would be amazing, but have you noticed that BioWare takes a dim view of revolutionaries in Thedas?

 

Spoiler

I didn't notice it until my friend pointed out that characters who try to change the status quo are always depicted as terrorists or well-intentioned extremists, while the player character always has to save or maintain the status quo. I said "That's not true!" ... until I thought about it and realized, yes, it is.

 

I mean, in DAO you don't rebel against the oppressive Circle system, you just defeat the demons and either massacre the mages or give control of them back to the Templars. In Orzammar, you solve a succession crisis by choosing one of two candidates to uphold Orzammar's monarchy. In Ferelden, you depose Loghain and replace him with one or two royal candidates to uphold Ferelden's monarchy. (Mages, casteless, and elves are still under-heel.)

 

In DA2, the Arishok calls Kirkwall a cesspool of corruption (of which he's not wrong), and Hawke defeats him to maintain the Kirkwall noble's power. (Which doesn't solve any of the problems the Arishok pointed out. Kirkwall nobles and guards still oppress elves, and Hightown still grows fat while people starve in the lower towns.) In Act 3, Anders is a terrorist who blows up the Chantry to force mages to rebel, and while Hawke can side with mages, it's mostly to try to show, "Hey, they're not crazy terrorists like Anders so you shouldn't kill them," not "MAGE PRIDE!"

 

In DAI, we once again restore the status quo in a lot of ways. We ensure that the oppressive Orlesian Empire doesn't crumble into chaos (which is what Corypheus wants), and we ensure that the Chantry doesn't crumble by helping them (directly or indirectly) elect a new Divine. Admittedly we do better this game since we can get the Circles abolished, possibly the Templars and Seekers liquidated, and put an elf in charge of Orlais, but I have a feeling those will have negative consequences in Tresspasser...

 

In general, BioWare seems to takes a dim view of revolution in these games. The lesson always seems to be, "It's better to maintain an oppressive system to ensure stability than to try to create a better society since the ensuing violence and chaos would be worse," and even "It's pointless to try to start a revolution because today's oppressed will just become tomorrow's oppressors." When Solas prods Sera to try to make lasting change, she herself basically says, "What' the point of taking down the top since there'll just be another one to frig it all up again?"

 

Speaking of which, Solas recognizes widespread misery and corruption and oppression all over Thedas and is trying to do something to stop it, but I'm sure he'll be vilified for it, both from the devs and players alike. (Doesn't he know that you're supposed to support the status quo like the players always do?)

 

Meh, sorry for the rant and ramble. I just noticed that.

 

(In short, I agree with you that I would LOVE to be a revolutionary--especially for elves!--but it seems "revolution/ary" is a dirty word for BioWare's Thedas.)

 

I don't think that's the case. I think that the larger point is that change is difficult and complex and revolutions don't always work or their potential is squandered (or it takes a while to change). 

 

I know something of it from history of my own country. After we've lost independence for nearly two centuries we had a ton of uprisings, all very heroic and well-intended, "for freedom yours and ours", etc...but majority of them ended either not doing much or having pretty bad results, for variety of reasons - bad planning, having larger forces against us, just plain old misfortune, etc.

 

It almost took plain dumb luck to actually use the political situation and restore the country on maps in 1918, and even then, Poland regained its independence for 3 decades, before being partitioned again by Nazi Germany and Soviet Union at the wake of WWII, after which the country was forced to join USSR and regained independence barely 3 decades ago.

[midnight tea]

I just reinstalled my game after a computer crash that caused me to reboot and reinstall. I have no new game at all and only 3 1/2 days to go!

 

Oh damn... Well, in case you really want to play Trespasser when it comes, I can share some of my saves. It obviously won't be your character, world-state or decisions, but they'd let you experience the DLC firsthand.

[Shari'El]

I can do it by then. It's the long weekend and I'm off and it takes only 4 hours to get to the end of the game, so if I add all the in-between stuff I might be able to complete it by Monday night. I have everything memorized so I know where to go and what to get. I've played the game over 20 times.

 

[Cee]

Does anyone know if Trespasser is raising the level cap? I presume it will, but now I'm afraid to google anything about the DLC because of whatever potential spoiler might be around.

[Jewlie Ghoulie]

Does anyone know if Trespasser is raising the level cap? I presume it will, but now I'm afraid to google anything about the DLC because of whatever potential spoiler might be around.

it's not, actually
Edit:
At least, that's what I read

[midnight tea]

Does anyone know if Trespasser is raising the level cap? I presume it will, but now I'm afraid to google anything about the DLC because of whatever potential spoiler might be around.

 

No, it won't, according to what Darrah and Laidlaw said on their twitter some time ago. It seems that level 27 is as far as the game the game can go without seriously messing up the underlying systems. 

 

It appears however that there will be some sort of new game modes available, some balance changes, plus the DLC content will scale accordingly.

[Avejajed]

How do you farm fade rifts for veil quartz

[drosophila]

I don't think that's the case. I think that the larger point is that change is difficult and complex and revolutions don't always work or their potential is squandered (or it takes a while to change). 

 

I know something of it from history of my own country. After we've lost independence for nearly two centuries we had a ton of uprisings, all very heroic and well-intended, "for freedom yours and ours", etc...but majority of them ended either not doing much or having pretty bad results, for variety of reasons - bad planning, having larger forces against us, just plain old misfortune, etc.

 

It almost took plain dumb luck to actually use the political situation and restore the country on maps in 1918, and even then, Poland regained its independence for 3 decades, before being partitioned again by Nazi Germany and Soviet Union, after which the country was forced to join USSR and regained independence barely 3 decades ago.

 

Similarly for my country, five hundred years of oppression. There were uprisings all the time, and we have many legends of heroic revolutionaries, but most of what they did was bring about more bloodshed on the innocent when the uprising was cut down. It wasn't until the political situation caught the interest of larger forces that we were freed. 

[drosophila]

Does anyone know if Trespasser is raising the level cap? I presume it will, but now I'm afraid to google anything about the DLC because of whatever potential spoiler might be around.

 

What's the point of leveling up when the story's going to end? 

[Cee]

No, it won't, according to what Darrah and Laidlaw said on their twitter some time ago. It seems that level 27 is as far as the game the game can go without seriously messing up the underlying systems. 

 

It appears however that there will be some sort of new game modes available, some balance changes, plus the DLC content will scale accordingly.

 

Ah, thanks (everyone!). I was curious since 27 seems like such a weird number and The Descent didn't add levels.

[Caddius]

Hm, I don't think Bioware portrays it as better to maintain the status quo. It's more that the characters in the story think it is better to maintain the status quo. The Warden can question why Eamon would want Alistair, who wasn't really trained to be a leader, as king. Eamon is insistent that the Theirin bloodline is essential, and that the people of Ferelden are loyal to their royalty. His talent is inconsequential. Loghain even mocks Eamon for being a traditionalist clinging to the idea of a Theirin monarchy, even though Alistair is likely infertile. Loghain's troubles that lead to him taking more and more tyrannical and desperate and foolish moves may start with the backlash against his withdrawal from Ostagar, but most of the nobility arraigned against him are pissed that a jumped-up peasant is daring to act as regent and make decisions without their approval, as the Bannorn has always done. Lacking reputable allies, Loghain just digs himself deeper.

 

It's not like they're portraying the alienage reforms in Origins as being a bad thing. There's backlash. Riots. People die. That's what's always happened. It would be very odd if massive reforms happened without any bloodshed or protest on anyone's part. *cough Leliana cough* Progress is excruciatingly painful, but Dragon Age does let those of us sympathetic with revolutionary causes start rolling the first snowball. 

And that's just what happens if you support Bhelen in Orzammar. For all his faults, the man shatters the status quo in Orzammar that's been going on since the First Blight. The Casteless bearing arms and gaining rights. Expansion in the Deep Roads. Alliances with surfacers. The power of the Assembly neutered and the deshyrs silenced when they try to stop him from becoming too powerful. A government by its nature conservative on an almost Roman scale, with an Assembly of Deep Lords deciding the king and often eliminating the king, has become a dictatorship with the traditional source of power crippled.

 

Dragon Age II is basically a study of people trapped by their own systems of government and culture. The Arishok is literally trapped in Kirkwall until he finds the Tome of Koslun, and eventually commits suicide by Hawke rather than fail to live up to the demands of the Qun. The Templars take ever more terrible measures to control the mages, because the mages in Kirkwall are genuinely out of control. But their draconian methods lead the mages to spiral further down into blood magic and resistance. The game hammers in that the status quo is unacceptable, but no one is able to figure out a better answer. That's what Inquisition is for. The Circle System has had nine hundred years to build up steam. Likewise, the French Revolution wasn't caused by King Louis XVI suddenly turning France into an absolute monarchy. It took years of build-up and the resentment slowly building up. I doubt Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite would have lasted ten seconds with the Sun King stomping around at the beginning of that century, for instance. 

From an in-story perspective, we don't often get to support revolutionary measures because, well, how often do revolutions in real life succeed? How many peasant rebellions overthrew their liege lord without being crushed? How many burghers successfully got Emperor Caddius of the Von Lavellan dynasty in Crusader Kings to lower taxes? I can name a dozen slave revolts that ended with the poor blighters nailed to crosses, but Haiti is the only one I know of that actually won. (Go Haiti, go go go!  )

Inquisition is the one that really focuses on the questions of, "Well, will it be worth it?" And as players, we get to decide. Do we go back to the status quo with the bare minimum of changes, and adopt an almost Classical Conservative outlook? Then you choose Vivienne as your Divine. Leliana shoves through as many reforms as possible, and is more than willing to assassinate anyone who gets in her way, making her the Bhelen style of progress. Cassandra is the middle of the road. The general structure of the old society remains, but reforms begin, and she's open to new ideas.

 

So those are just my two cents on reform in Dragon Age. 

EDIT: I'll just add it to Midnight and Drosophilia's tab.

[drosophila]

DLC in DAI are a nightmare if you go in under 20! And we have a final boss fight in this one that I'm sure will sting quite a bit if we aren't strong enough since it's the last DLC. No final boss fight in a DLC is easy unless you have overly prepared for it. Even my level 19 Inquisitor shrugged through the start of JOH before she sleeved up to 25.

 

I meant what's the point of increasing the level cap and leveling up beyond 27. They probbaly made the boss reasonable to fight if your level is near cap.

 

Edit: Top Solas. What the hell is this pose? Image from Solas-an.

 

[Jayla]

 

I don't watch Supernatural but that gif is the first thing to make me want to watch it... Just to see what they're gaping at. xD

[drosophila]

Are you aware of the spoilers?

 

If you want to share spoilers, please PM the person, or at least use spoiler tags. Please also do this for any of your emotional reactions to the spoilers. 

 

Thanks! We're being extra sensitive for this DLC. 

[Siha]

The whole conversation is conjecture anyway. Based on opinions only, on characters in a game that aren't even fully realized. There is a time and a place to discuss the morality of using mental illness in art, literature, games, books, whatever, but that place is not here and the time is not now. 

 

Way more pressing issues to fight about anyway.

 

I dunno... blasted morality issues always. One of the reasons this thread felt so boring after a while.  When's the time and where's the place? I wanna go.

 

Not discuss mental illness in real life people here, alright. But why not speak about it in terms of video game realizations and what ifs? Never thought about Solas's behavior (or the perception thereof) as being the result of mental disturbances before. Seems an interesting idea to play with now that it's occurred to me... not claiming I think the authors intended it. Just that hypothetical idea of how it might all fit together... or not. Like we tried to explain the Blight as a form of cancer triggered by fungal infestation.

 

I didn't catch the whole conversation but a convincing, believable, realistic representation of mental illness in a video game character would be a splendid piece of art in my eyes.

[Cee]

 Leliana shoves through as many reforms as possible, and is more than willing to assassinate anyone who gets in her way, making her the Bhelen style of progress.

 

I'm pretty curious how our Divine choice comes into play, since mine is a softened Leliana who isn't a reformer with bloodshed, but rather, ideas and policy.

 

But this was fitting for the type of Inquisition my Lavellan ran.

[Mims]

Yes, spoiler folks- come on down to spoiler thread.

[Jayla]

I dunno... blasted morality issues always. One of the reasons this thread felt so boring after a while.  When's the time and where's the place? I wanna go.

 

Not discuss mental illness in real life people here, alright. But why not speak about it in terms of video game realizations and what ifs? Never thought about Solas's behavior (or the perception thereof) as being the result of mental disturbances before. Seems an interesting idea to play with now that it's occurred to me... not claiming I think the authors intended it. Just that hypothetical idea of how it might all fit together... or not. Like we tried to explain the Blight as a form of cancer triggered by fungal infestation.

 

I didn't catch the whole conversation but a convincing, believable, realistic representation of mental illness in a video game character would be a splendid piece of art in my eyes.

 

That'd be cool to talk about. I'd be interested in that, but now I don't know what to say without people crawling out of the woodwork to criticize me*. xD

 

PS: That's a joke please don't bite me my backside can take only so much hiding!

[Caddius]

I'm pretty curious how our Divine choice comes into play, since mine is a softened Leliana who isn't a reformer with bloodshed, but rather, ideas and policy.

 

But this was fitting for the type of Inquisition my Lavellan ran.

My Templar just got to his first chat with Vivienne. I've always had Cassandra or Angry! Leliana before.

When she started talking about crushing all dissent and rebels, well...

TREV: 0_o Okay, then...I'll be over here hunting demons while you do that.