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[laurelinvanyar]

Varric lays it out for us in banter way early on. "The best villains don't see themselves as evil. They're fighting for a good cause and willing to get their hands dirty."

Spoiler

Solas certainly thinks he's doing the right thing. Which is the most tragic of all. Solas thinks he's doing the right thing and when he realizes he's NOT, I wonder if he would survive his guilt.

[Illyria]

Ok - so here's the thing. And I don't have to spoiler this. Just because you understand someone's intent and perhaps their emotional state, doesn't stop them from being wrong. Cole can feel ALL the compassion he wants. He can understand the motivations behind someone. But that doesn't mean he approves of their course of action. 

Moreover, Solas has forced Cole to forget. He does it at the end of DA:I and he'll probably continue to do it. Hence why Human Cole might be the safe option, if you want a Cole who is as honest with you as you need him to be.
 

As for the heart not capable of cruelty bit.. Did you see what he did to those mages? Mages who didn't know better?

Spoiler

Did you see what he did to the rest of the pantheon? For Mythal's murder he separated them from the physical world AND PUNISHED THEM FOR ETERNITY. That was his goal. It wasn't a rap on the wrist, it wasn't punishment for a period of time, it wasn't an attempt to rehabilitate.. He thought to make them suffer for what they did. FOREVER. Except now plans have changed because his veil-fade-prison isn't the fix-all he hoped it to be.

Moreover, have you played another character who isn't a Lavellan who doesn't agree with him? What he says to you is VILE. He condemns you! He doesn't seek to understand your motives, where you came from - no. You're an inexcusable brute. Whose disappearance from reality he'll meet with relish. Because he doesn't. think. you. are. real. You are a mistake to be rectified.

TL;DR: Solas is a person just like everyone else. With GLORIOUS FLAWS and heartbreaking intents. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have nasty sides to him. Just like we all do. Except hopefully none of us have genocidal tendencies.

 

Spoiler

re: the bolded part.  I think Solas' views on the modern world are more complicated than that. He's desperate for something that will prove him wrong (he even says this outright to a friend!Inquisitor) and show him that this world is worth saving, but he just can't let go of his drive to make the world the way it was - like Dorian and the Inqusitor didn't hesitate to turn back time in Redcliffe. No questions about staying and helping out in the future at all. No thought for the people who lived there, for all the small good things that may have happened in that hell year. Leliana's sacrifice was noble, and the Inquisitor can even thank her for it, but ultimatly it wasn't real to them. It was just a shadow. That is the way Solas is forcing himself to see the modern world.  It's not that an assquisitor isn't real to him, it's that he doesn't want her to be real.

 

And was it just for Mythal's murder that he locked about the gods?  Or was that just the final thing they did that pushed him over the edge?  I know you have your wonderful headcanons about the panethon, but the fact is - we know very little about them.

 

And mentioning the mages - you can pull him back from killing the mages.  I'm sure we can pull him back from whatever he's planning now.

 

Or you can murder knife him.  Whatever.

 

Ok, let's get this once and for all:

 

Spoiler

Ultimately, this is just interpretation.

People who resent Solas and want to knife-murder him will find any given thing to back up their feelings about it.

People who want to save Solas will try to see the better side of him, and hope for redemption.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but it does feel that, no matter what Solas did in his past, it was horrible. But DA;I has, times and times again, told a story of how people can change for the better, if you actively help them to. It also has been a story about forgiving, growing up, and be a better being. Blackwall story is very much that to my eyes, and I fail to see how Solas couldn't be that as well. That's why I'll be Team Optimism, Solas IS worth saving, despite all the bad he did in his past, he can become a better person, redeem himself, and grow from this, if he allows us to. If you chose to not forgive him, fine, that's something between you and your feelings and mindset. Doesn't mean than anyone WILLING to save him is a complete immoral fool.

 

I love you.

 

Spoiler

I agree that the big theme of DAI is redemption. Look at all the people you can judge at Skyhold who you can recuit as agents, or sentence in ways that allows them to atone. This game is all about second chances.

[AutumnOracle]

Spoiler

Yes, this must be the saddest love story ever. I challenge you to find me a sadder one!

 

But you know what that means? For Lavellan to go through all this and still believe in him, still believe there's a chance to turn him away from his path, and keep fighting for him and for the world, she must be the toughest chick in existence. 

 

Ancient elves? Pfft. Solas, one of the most incredible people is standing right next to you. 

 

And the saddest part is he probably knows that.

 

I think he does.  He tells her that she has a rare and marvelous spirit. 

 

Spoiler

And this is coming from a guy who's only been awake for a year at this point.  Which means that her spirit is rare to him in the sense of the world he used to live in. And we all know that while spirits may rejuvenate they will never again be what they were.  I hope maybe in the end that will be part of what helps save him. His companion quest where he would have/did wiped out the mages that kill his spirit friend.  How could he even allow himself to do that to the woman he loves or the friend he respects.  

 

Lavellan knows that in the dialogue if you pick I would have never believed that of you. Because she sees Solas not Fen'Harel.  She sees the true heart and we just need to get him to listen to his darn heart!

[Delphine]

Spoiler

I never once called anyone an immoral fool.

 

I never said that he couldn't be redeemed.

 

I never said I wouldn't forgive him.

And I never made any value judgement of any kind against what you choose to do.

 

All I did was point out the moral disconnect between what Solas' intent is and what his actions are. A disconnect Cole sees very clearly.

Please do not project.

 

Spoiler

Your posts have been very much hostile to any kind of redemption so far, and very much inclined to use the word "knife-murder" and "Solas" in the same sentence.

I get that we're all getting different emotional reactions to this DLC, but from someone that I have seen supporting the Elven Pantheon, or should I also call it, the Problematic Pantheon, I don't know, I guess I expected a little bit more nuance. Thedas is nothing but filled with problematic characters, but that's what makes them compelling to begin with.

 

If I have been projecting, and that I have misinterpreted your posts and intentions, then sorry.

[Eurowande]

 

 

Spoiler

I agree that the big theme of DAI is redemption. Look at all the people you can judge at Skyhold who you can recuit as agents, or sentence in ways that allows them to atone. This game is all about second chances.

THIS

[CapricornSun]

Spoiler

re: the bolded part.  I think Solas' views on the modern world are more complicated than that. He's desperate for something that will prove him wrong (he even says this outright to a friend!Inquisitor) and show him that this world is worth saving, but he just can't let go of his drive to make the world the way it was - like Dorian and the Inqusitor didn't hesitate to turn back time in Redcliffe. No questions about staying and helping out in the future at all. No thought for the people who lived there, for all the small good things that may have happened in that hell year. Leliana's sacrifice was noble, and the Inquisitor can even thank her for it, but ultimatly it wasn't real to them. It was just a shadow. That is the way Solas is forcing himself to see the modern world.  It's not that an assquisitor isn't real to him, it's that he doesn't want her to be real.

 

And was it just for Mythal's murder that he locked about the gods?  Or was that just the final thing they did that pushed him over the edge?  I know you have your wonderful headcanons about the panethon, but the fact is - we know very little about them.

 

And mentioning the mages - you can pull him back from killing the mages.  I'm sure we can pull him back from whatever he's planning now.

 

Or you can murder knife him.  Whatever.

 

 

I love you.

 

Spoiler

I agree that the big theme of DAI is redemption. Look at all the people you can judge at Skyhold who you can recuit as agents, or sentence in ways that allows them to atone. This game is all about second chances.

 

Liking this post as well.

[Illyria]

Spoiler

 

But why did they have to also turn him into Ben Kingsley?

 

 

They took away his sexyness to anger people, too.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[Illyria]

Guys, I am back on the Team Optimism train.

 

*throws glitter in the air and decorates the blanket fort with TO banners*

 

Banal Nadas!

[laurelinvanyar]

Spoiler

I think a part of him already knows that, so that's why he said he hopes to be proven wrong again.

Spoiler

So he figures it out and...then what? Just goes to settle down with Lavellan with 2.5 kids and a mabari? I can't see him going "Well gee I see you all as people worth protecting now I'm just gonna go hang out kthxbai". I'm wondering if we're going to get another Saren Arterius.

[NightSymphony]

Guys, I am back on the Team Optimism train.

 

*throws glitter in the air and decorates the blanket fort with TO banners*

 

Banal Nadas!

Out of likes. YAY!!  Welcome back

[Illyria]

Spoiler

So he figures it out and...then what? Just goes to settle down with Lavellan with 2.5 kids and a mabari? I can't see him going "Well gee I see you all as people worth protecting now I'm just gonna go hang out kthxbai". I'm wondering if we're going to get another Saren Arterius.

 

Spoiler

Personally I'm hoping for him dying happy. Perhaps sacrifcing himself to stop whatever it is he plans to do.

[Meer]

Spoiler

While one of the themes of the game might very well be redemption, I think when we compare Blackwall and Solas, scale ought to be considered.

 

We now have it confirmed that, in creating the Veil, Solas destroyed the empire. Technically, he has already committed one genocide (though the definition is imperfect; it likely was not deliberate). What is troubling is that he is willing to knowingly commit another, after having seen you and your people as real at last. Blackwall killed children, knowingly, but it was not his intent. He never comes clean until the time of Inquisition. But when he does, he repents, and fully. He does not continue to make the same mistakes. He makes no excuses, offers no reasoning. He admits he was wrong. Solas does not share that final trajectory at all. He does not think he is wrong.

 

Whatever the intent, no matter how noble his goals seem in comparison to Blackwall's, we cannot fairly compare the two. The crimes are much too different. The mentalities of the two characters are different, too. While Blackwall was clearly meant to be a foil to Solas, I think in the end what he was supposed to represent to Solas was the possibility of forgiveness. Not a one-to-one comparison.

[Cee]

I think he does.  He tells her that she has a rare and marvelous spirit. 

 

Spoiler

And this is coming from a guy who's only been awake for a year at this point.  Which means that her spirit is rare to him in the sense of the world he used to live in. And we all know that while spirits may rejuvenate they will never again be what they were.  I hope maybe in the end that will be part of what helps save him. His companion quest where he would have/did wiped out the mages that kill his spirit friend.  How could he even allow himself to do that to the woman he loves or the friend he respects.  

 

Lavellan knows that in the dialogue if you pick I would have never believed that of you. Because she sees Solas not Fen'Harel.  She sees the true heart and we just need to get him to listen to his darn heart!

 

 

Spoiler

I think a part of him already knows that, so that's why he said he hopes to be proven wrong again.

 

Spoiler

 

Another glimmer of hope, yes.

 

 

No likes, but hearts.

[AllThatJazz]

Spoiler

re: the bolded part.  I think Solas' views on the modern world are more complicated than that. He's desperate for something that will prove him wrong (he even says this outright to a friend!Inquisitor) and show him that this world is worth saving, but he just can't let go of his drive to make the world the way it was - like Dorian and the Inqusitor didn't hesitate to turn back time in Redcliffe. No questions about staying and helping out in the future at all. No thought for the people who lived there, for all the small good things that may have happened in that hell year. Leliana's sacrifice was noble, and the Inquisitor can even thank her for it, but ultimatly it wasn't real to them. It was just a shadow. That is the way Solas is forcing himself to see the modern world.  It's not that an assquisitor isn't real to him, it's that he doesn't want her to be real.

 

And was it just for Mythal's murder that he locked about the gods?  Or was that just the final thing they did that pushed him over the edge?  I know you have your wonderful headcanons about the panethon, but the fact is - we know very little about them.

 

And mentioning the mages - you can pull him back from killing the mages.  I'm sure we can pull him back from whatever he's planning now.

 

Or you can murder knife him.  Whatever.

 

 

I love you.

 

Spoiler

I agree that the big theme of DAI is redemption. Look at all the people you can judge at Skyhold who you can recuit as agents, or sentence in ways that allows them to atone. This game is all about second chances.

Great post.

 

Spoiler

Yeah, I guess I've always thought that Mythal's murder was the last straw. That the war between the Pantheon and the Forgotten Ones was destroying the People, that slavery was rife, that the 'gods' abused their power to such a degree that imprisonment, even eternal imprisonment, seemed like a good idea. Or possibly the only idea that stood a chance of working and saving everyone. The Fade somewhere is their prison, the veil is its lock or whatever. But the veil caused more problems than it solved, and instead of just preventing the gods from escaping their prison, it cut everyone in the physical world off from the Fade either completely (dwarves) or mostly (everyone else), and cut the denizens of the Fade off from the 'real' world. That is what being Tranquil is, isn't it, being cut off from the Fade, so it's actually a pretty accurate (if horrifying) description from Solas.

 

Anyhow, remaining ultimately hopeful here too

[Cee]

Interruption for a feels moment.

 

Spoiler

 

Solas, Var lath vir suledin

I wish it could, vhenan

 

 

 

[Delphine]

I suggest taking this to PMs because this sounds personal.

 

It really isn't though? You have your way of seeing things about Solas, and it's legitimate. You're definitely not the only person seeing things that way, I'm just not agreeing with that train of thoughts, not with you personally. My first post was as general as could be for a reason.

[Jaderail]

Spoiler

Personally I'm hoping for him dying happy. Perhaps sacrifcing himself to stop whatever it is he plans to do.

 

Spoiler

That's a good point. I have a feeling you might be able to change his mind, and maybe to make up for everything he's done, an ultimate sacrifice would make sense.

 

But I reallllllllly hope that's not the only option.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Spoiler

So he figures it out and...then what? Just goes to settle down with Lavellan with 2.5 kids and a mabari? I can't see him going "Well gee I see you all as people worth protecting now I'm just gonna go hang out kthxbai". I'm wondering if we're going to get another Saren Arterius.

 

Spoiler

My jaw just about hit the floor when I realized that I could talk Saren into shooting himself.  I hadn't found him terribly sympathetic before that, TBH, but in those final moments when he broke free of the indoctrination I almost cried for him.  If we get another Saren Arterius with Solas, I will be 1000% destroyed but so, so happy with the story if it's well done.

[Cee]

Guys, I am back on the Team Optimism train.

 

*throws glitter in the air and decorates the blanket fort with TO banners*

 

Banal Nadas!

 

Wooo
 

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[Miss This or That]

 

Spoiler

But it's not that Solas is a bad person. Not at all! It's that his actions have taken a turn for the worse, and his incredible resolve is unfortunately one of his admirable qualities.

 

 

Spoiler

Solas biggest weakness as a villainous entity is definitely his compassion and the fact that he cares way too much for someone that wants to doom the entirety of Thedas. That makes me love him so much, but it also really puts him in a position were he cannot achieve a satisfying end at all. I think that's part of the reason why he is willing to go on this "death journey". 

 

I would go as far as to say that UNFORTUNATELY (for Solas) he can't be a downright villain. An antagonist, yes, but his compassion is probably his biggest character weakness and that just makes me so sad. It's good for being able to redeem him, hopefully, but it almost makes me wish that he could really steel his heart - because it would be less painful for him. 

 

...I love this egghead SO much that I don't want to see him suffer so much despite his dreadful plans. Ugh. Damn you Weekes! If he were a popstar he'd be my idol, kind of.