153429 réponses à ce sujet

[laurelinvanyar]

Well, that should be cathartic for a lot of people:

Spoiler

http://bluebudgie.tu...lled-solas-like

LOL

 

I'm thinking Dragon Age: How it Should Have Ended youtube series. 

[Illyria]

Well, that should be cathartic for a lot of people:

Spoiler

http://bluebudgie.tu...lled-solas-like

 

Spoiler

One tumblr user points out that the fact that Solas has a health bar and a combat stance, and the presence of a talk icon above the Qunari lady's head AND the shift from cinematic cam to regualr cam at one point implies that this scene had several cut branches.

[Catwall]

On an unrelated note, your username is awesome. It makes me think of kitty!Blackwall. Fluffy, fluffy black kitty with excellent whiskers.

Well thank you! I can share that my original avatar was indeed this same kitty-ish face, but bearded and in plaideweave, so Sable Rhapsody, you pretty much nailed it, hah!

[Delphine]

Spoiler

For those wondering about the "You're Fen'Harel" dialog option, here goes:

http://tsyele.tumblr...-never-got-this

 

I love his "Well done, thumbs up, liking it, this is my Inqui-chan, I taught her well" subtle expression.

[midnight tea]

Spoiler

Hahaha I have the opposite read on Solas. For all that he claims he's "not much of a gambler anymore" or not that hot blooded cocky youth who thinks he knows best anymore, Solas hasn't really changed all that much to me. Vivienne correctly points out that for all of Solas' grand empathy and love of freedom, he doesn't have a viable solution to most of his plans. Disbanding the circle is super humanitarian, but you still have the problem of mages being a danger to those around them. Kicking out the wardens is justice, but leaves southern thedas with no back up plan in case darkspawn pop up. 

 

But this is just my read on him.

 

Spoiler

.... Or Vivienne has no grasp of how long-term plans Soals is capable of. And considering that he's an ancient elf - and possibly one of the most powerful beings ever...

 

First off - he does have an alternative to Gray Wardens, obviosly. He'd be reshaping the world in next few years, won't he? So plase don't tell me that he doesn't have any alternative plans, when all the way throughout Inquisition and even before it, he's secretly working on it the entire time.

 

Same with mages - didn't you catch it, that when Vivienne asked him what he'd do he responds "I'd kill them". Dunno if it was for you, but for me that exchange is significant in more than a few ways, especially that at the end of it Vivienne implies that to hunt all those mages individually, Solas would have to be both omniscient and immortal... Which he doesn't deny, MIGHT be his plan all along.

 

 

 

To me at least, Solas IS a very VERY emotional thinker who just CLAIMS to be rational. Even his new plan, Project: Destroy the world to rebuild, is made out of a place of fear and guilt, NOT logic. 

 

No, you only assume there's only fear and guilt. I mean... there obviously is, but it would be way too simple if it was just that, and if there's anything we can be certain of BW OR Solas is that things are never really simple.

[midnight tea]

He is SO the Severus Snape of Dragon Age.

 

It's actually pretty goddamn accurate!

[BoscoBread]

Spoiler

How do you know the alternatives were not this bad? From all the available dialogue during meeting with him, he feels guilty for creating the Veil, but he STILL claims that alternatives would've been worse. So no, it appears that he might really not have had much other choice.

 

Also - I wasn't talking in the context of the scale of the crime, but of its nature. Blackwall's crime was a crime - pure and simple. I don't think however we can call creation of the Veil as something as straightforward, especially given that the outcome might have indeed been better than alternatives, even with its terrible cost.

Spoiler

Then why undo it?  Why restore the world of elves if it was SOOO bad?   That's my interpretation. 

 

This part makes me a bit uncomfortable because we're entering into the pain olympics but here we go - Solas actually admits he's killed people. And not just the veil. He says something a long the lines "I did not become the dread wolf without getting my hands bloody". And then he put up the veil. He erased the elvhen.  He utterly DESTROYED their culture. The intent doesn't matter. That culture is GONE. Those people are DEAD.  As a person who loves art and all things ancient this makes me hurt.  Those memories make me hurt.  (yes I know he does to).  But you find that was a necessity. Ok.

 

 Here's what I  find sad is that according to you - there is no forgiveness for Blackwall because he killed a noble and his three children(who were not supposed to be there) in a time of war but did it for gold.  He did not change the course of history.  What he did was wrong and you don't have to forgive him but jesus christ.  He wants to be forgiven and he actually tries to earn it. Give the guy a break.

 

In conclusion: Genocide is ok with good intentions. But murder is bad if you do it for gold?   What are you feelings on Zevran? Leliana? Josephine?  Literally every character in the game? 

 

I'm not trying to be an ass and please correct me if I mis-read you but that's how I interpret your post. 

 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Spoiler

All I saw was Solas said the anchor was killing you, then stops it and implies you will live until he tears down the veil, so he gave you a small timeline to live your life before you are gone.

 

See, here's what I wonder: 

 

Spoiler

 

I can understand how he might not be able to bring himself to personally kill a quizzy who had high friendship/romance.  Even he isn't that cold.  But why wouldn't he kill a quizzy whom he hated?  He has to know that quizzy is going to try to stop him, and we're talking about the man/woman who found a Titan, rebirthed an Avvar god, and killed a would-be god already.  Is he really arrogant enough to think that there's no possible way for quizzy to derail his plans?  

 

Solas, in case you hadn't gotten the memo...quizzy is spectacularly good at being a spanner in the works.  Like, her whole EXISTENCE in the prologue is basically "cosmic spanner."

[Oswin]

So, while doing my main-Lavellan PT for Traspasser I recorded all the cutscenes and rewatched some of them, and maybe I miss something, but

Spoiler

does cutting the arm off actually cure Quizzy? Solas said the mark would kill them eventually. I also recall that one of the devs said that the anchor isn't gone when the hand is gone (or did I dream that?). I'm under the impression that it only buys some time, right?

Thanks to all those who answer my questions all the time

 

What he said roughly word for word to my friendquizzy:

Spoiler

"The mark will eventually kill you. Drawing you here gave me a chance to save you, at least for now."

<speech about redeeming Solas>

"Take my hand."

*hand grab*

"I'm sorry"

*fist pump of magic*

 

"Live well, while time remains"

 

At first I thought he meant the arm chop was a temp solution when it happened with my female Lavellan. But that end comment about living well while time remains for my friendquizzy makes me think that he means he is safe from the anchor, and the 'for now' thing is a reference to what he has planned.

[Delphine]

Spoiler

One tumblr user points out that the fact that Solas has a health bar and a combat stance, and the presence of a talk icon above the Qunari lady's head AND the shift from cinematic cam to regualr cam at one point implies that this scene had several cut branches.

 

Spoiler

Meaning the possibility of fighting Solas and killing him was in the draft at first, but they canceled it because they decided he was going to be the main antagonist of DA4? It's interesting, what goes on behind the closed doors of a video game development team, I'd love to know more, and why.

[S.W.]

Two days pass and this thread has jumped 50 pages forward. I love you guys.

 

So, I don't know if you guys could tell, but I was sort of having a post-DLC hellspiral on Wednesday morning (which is why I was posting so much). Just... conflicted feelings.

Spoiler

I love Solas, but he's a damn problematic fave. And one of the reasons I originally liked him was because he was compassionate, with a great sense of justice and a good moral compass. I liked the fact that he was right about things, for good reasons. Add in how beautifully tragic this whole romance is, and I was just a total mess, nervy, jumpy, unable to concentrate. Tissues were on standby.

 

Anyway, my best friend came over and I didn't talk about DA at all, we watched a couple of funny and heartwarming films, and went for dinner, and I feel so much better about things now

 

I do want to add that I think Weekes & co. deserve a massive, massive congratulations for making such a wonderful DLC, one of the best I've ever played, one of the most satisfying - in terms of everything, writing, designs, gameplay, combat, emotional impact, lore bombs, everything - and made for an incredible end to the game. If there's not a thread in the feedback section saying as much, I will make one tonight.

 

I also had a couple of weird, weird thoughts about All New, All Faded For Her, and how lore revelations in Trespasser impact that quest, as well as some weird thoughts in general about Solas' approach to people in modern Thedas:

Spoiler

so now it's been confirmed that Solas made the veil, I think that goes a long way to explaining his attitude towards spirits as people. As I imagine spirits were once part of the same world, hell, possible even part of elves themselves (and it's possible this goes both ways), and likely understanding and relationships between the two things were if not just better, possibly... changed, more together, where pure emotions and virtues were embodied and lived rather than existing in seperate worlds?

 

I'm not a philosophy student (yet, lol), but I wonder if the elven world had a different understanding of being, of what human existence entails, in comparison to the weird mind-body dualism which you see portrayed in modern Thedas. Like, there's the distinction between the physical world and the fade - where body (and possibly the mind) exists in one realm, and a representation of the mind, of thoughts and feelings and dreams, exists in the other realm (but no body, at all). Like, where spirits are almost literal platonic essences of immaterial things - they're the ultimate, perfect understanding of courage, or compassion, or faith. I can almost see the thedosian equivalent of Socrates annoying a local merchant in the val-royeaux bazaar, asking him to define what courage is, and then nitpicking the merchant's flimsy definition of the term, before being visiting by a spirit of courage in a dream saying WTF DUDE, I'M RIGHT HERE, YOU JUST NEEDED TO GO TO THE FADE.

 

This interpretation does get very complicated when you factor in that the fade does exist materially as well as immaterially - you can physically enter the fade, and thus it's not really representative of the 'mind' as much as it's just a weird dream world. Any attempts to enter the fade physically have gone horrible wrong (the inquisitor excepted, poss. because they were using elven magic) - like, according to common knowledge, the idea of the body existing in the realm ideas and dreams has had drastically bad ethical consequences in Thedas (the blight). The fade also has interesting functions in Thedas' common religion - it's in some interpretations, the maker's first world, but also contains the golden city and the seat of the maker. In religion, and in common folklore, the world of ideas is seen as above and beyond the world of men - it ideologically encourages a view that the two should been seen apart, at any rate, even if they don't function as such necessarily.

 

EITHER WAY, the fade has some interesting metaphysical consequences, and it leads me to question whether existence truly functions in a different way in Thedas than in comparison to here.

 

In comparison, I wonder if existence in the elven world was much more... holistic, even Heideggerarian, maybe. Possibly much closer to how we actually exist, in real life. Or possibly bizarrely different - maybe immaterial things, like ideas and dreams, had a physical existence in the elven world, they are things you can touch and feel and talk to (which would be really cool if true).

 

I'm pretty, er, biased on this issue because I don't like the idea of the mind and body being separate, I like to think our physical form defines the way we experience the world. I think when we do an action - like, slamming a door, I don't think it's an elaborate process where the mind processes door exists and then consciously orders arm to move with x amount of force - I think we just slam the damn door, it's much more simple, and occurs without a deliberate calculation. That's how a computer thinks, with inputs and outputs, rather than an actual person. And I've always found the concept of the fade pretty odd for this reason - emotions, actions, values, I think, are contextual. I think you can't take them apart from the world, from the body, and isolate them. And minds and bodies aren't isolated, separated, in the elven world.

 

This leads me to think three things about Solas' point of view that people born after the veil aren't actually people:

1. It is possible that after the creation of the veil, people in Thedas function much more like AI than actual people (which would be wonderfully ironic, because this is a computer game). Solas is potentially right - in comparison to his standard of a 'person', modern thedosians are different (although, not necessarily 'lesser').
2. Solas is fundamentally misunderstanding the metaphysics of the world since the veil has been created. The fade is a reflection of the mind, rather than the embodiment of thoughts and ideas. People in Thedas can still think and dream and feel - just their experience of such things is possibly more isolated since it's less prominent in their lives (unless you're a mage).
3. A combination of the two. The fade is full of subjective experiences, reflections and thoughts, as well as pure ideas. It's possible the elves considered those with much more weight and consideration than Thedosians do now, because those things were part of their everyday existence. That doesn't mean Thedosians are incapable of such things, but rather, because they aren't so prominent in their lives, they understand it in a different way - the fade is a reflection of the world, rather than an equal part of it which influences and shapes the world in turn. Also: even if modern Thedosians exist in fundamentally a different way to the ancient elves, that again, doesn't necessarily make them inferior.

 

2 or 3 is most likely, in my opinion.

 

                                                      

 

Weird tangent aside now, I also think the combined existence of the fade and the world also explains Solas' attitudes to spirits really well. I mean, in the elven world, spirits and people at least co-exist, if they're not intertwined more deeply, so why wouldn't you consider spirits as equals to elves, humans, etc.? It doesn't make sense, given that set-up, to see them as lesser, inhuman, less deserving, 'evil', etc. different - but not 'not people'.

 

It's also possible that Solas looks on most of Thedas' attitude towards the denizens of the fade as being unethical, if not downright inhumane, for this reason. Spirits = demons for most thedosians, they are either evil creatures to be destroyed utterly, or tools to be utilised, twisted at will, with no regard for their welfare or their rights - in fact, the idea that spirits have welfare and rights is absurd to most thedosians. Which further explains Solas' emotions during his personal quest a lot - those mages have callously murdered an innocent being, through transforming it into a monster against its will. Alongside his disbelief at how most people consider themselves 'people' in a world without the fade, he may also have such a low regard for most thedosians because they carry an utterly inhumane, disgusting set of opinions on the fade out of pure ignorance.

 

I also wonder whether Solas considers spirits much closer to people than thedosians. Which also explains his fascination with the fade - not only has he spent millennia in this place, but after waking, it's far more real to him than the actual world.

[Mims]

Well, that should be cathartic for a lot of people:

Spoiler

http://bluebudgie.tu...lled-solas-like

 

I laughed way too much. That is an amazing bug. 

[MoonDrummer]

Spoiler

to me at least, Solas IS a very VERY emotional thinker who just CLAIMS to be rational. Even his new plan, Project: Destroy the world to rebuild, is made out of a place of fear and guilt, NOT logic.  

Spoiler

Yes, this is how I feel about him now too. He steps in because the pantheon are going to destroy the world, and in doing so he destroys the world himself. Then he tries to fix this by destroying the world again. Knock it on the head Solas.

 

Also being tortured for an eternity does not seem like a very rational punishment for murder. Even after all his time resting he still thinks that is just. 

 

I also get the feeling he doesn't know the full story when in comes to the Mythal murder but that may just be my June apologist kicking in.

[Delphine]

I laughed way too much. That is an amazing bug. 

 

I really love the one-hit KO. It only needs a "FATALITYYYYY!" over it.

[Cee]

Well, that should be cathartic for a lot of people:

Spoiler

http://bluebudgie.tu...lled-solas-like

 

 

[laurelinvanyar]

Spoiler

.... Or Vivienne has no grasp of how long-term plans Soals is capable of. And considering that he's an ancient elf - and possibly one of the most powerful beings ever...

 

First off - he does have an alternative to Gray Wardens, obviosly. He'd be reshaping the world in next few years, won't he? So plase don't tell me that he doesn't have any alternative plans, when all the way throughout Inquisition and even before it, he's secretly working on it the entire time.

 

Same with mages - didn't you catch it, that when Vivienne asked him what he'd do he responds "I'd kill them". Dunno if it was for you, but for me that exchange is significant in more than a few ways, especially that at the end of it Vivienne implies that to hunt all those mages individually, Solas would have to be both omniscient and immortal... Which he doesn't deny, MIGHT be his plan all along.

 

 

 

No, you only assume there's only fear and guilt. I mean... there obviously is, but it would be way too simple if it was just that, and if there's anything we can be certain of BW OR Solas is that things are never really simple.

Spoiler

I'm sorry, but I personally don't find "ending the modern world" a viable alternative to the Circle or not having wardens around I did indeed catch that Solas said he would kill mages who hurt others. But again, it's him claiming not to be a god while at the same time taking on a godly burden, that of being an all powerful omnipotent judge. Who watches the watcher?

 

Also

 

 

I prefaced ALL of that with "It's my own personal opinion". If you don't agree with me that's perfectly fine.  

[Mims]

I really love the one-hit KO. It only needs a "FATALITYYYYY!" over it.

 

He was only level 1! Solas, you got to grind a couple boars before you go taking on the Inquisition. Doesn't matter how OP your class is. 

[_Lucinia]

Spoiler

I think the giant is a metaphor for the power elves would wield if they banded together to rise against humans/the rest of Thedas, with or without the Dread Wolf's help.

 

DW is just short for Dread Wolf.

 

It probably has another meaning but in Dalish father/Dalish son I see Solas - an ancient elf so a literal ancestor of modern elves - as he gathers his agents and forces and goes about executing his plan to tear down the veil. The Dalish son is modern elves - will they survive his plans? They're not his people.

 

Crap I am out of likes.

Agree with this 100%.

[Delphine]

Spoiler

I also get the feeling he doesn't know the full story when in comes to the Mythal murder but that may just be my June apologist kicking in.

 

Spoiler

Definitely related to his unique relationship to Mythal, and since we're kind of in dark (even though some clues are here and there) about it, it's difficult to know what's up.

[midnight tea]

Spoiler

Then why undo it?  Why restore the world of elves if it was SOOO bad?   That's my interpretation. 

 

Spoiler

Why assume it was SOOOOO bad? From the answers from Solas and some codexes it seems that powerful few ruined the lives or countless under them... so what will happen if you recreate the world without those powerful few?

 

There's also a possibility that restoration is better than alternative. We don't really know what's going on with Thedas, but the Veil might yet at some point become impervious, rendering anyone who lives them incapable of emotion or higher thought - life, eventually, will be so degenerated, that only demons would spawn in the Fade that yet manages to hang to the world, feeding the ever-tightening positive feedback loop of horribleness.... though I assume that at that point in history, everything will be Blighted anyway.

 

 

 

This part makes me a bit uncomfortable because we're entering into the pain olympics but here we go - Solas actually admits he's killed people. And not just the veil. He says something a long the lines "I did not become the dread wolf without getting my hands bloody". And then he put up the veil. He erased the elvhen.  He utterly DESTROYED their culture. The intent doesn't matter. That culture is GONE. Those people are DEAD.  As a person who loves art and all things ancient this makes me hurt.  Those memories make me hurt.  (yes I know he does to).  But you find that was a necessity. Ok.

 

I'm not really sure you assume that without Solas disastrous plan to create the Veil anything would survive intact, when Solas himself claims that Enavuris would eventually destroy the world entirely?

The loss of art and knowledge must've hurt - and we can see how much it hurts Solas, who is all for knowledge, refinement and reaching the peak of one's potential.

 

But what would you prefer? Preserve all the wonderful civilization for a cost of it exploding in a few years, or sacrifice it for a chance of it being slowly rebuilt someday??? 

 

I think the answer is relatively simple.

 

 

Here's what I  find sad is that according to you - there is no forgiveness for Blackwall because he killed a noble and his three children(who were not supposed to be there) in a time of war but did it for gold.  He did not change the course of history.  What he did was wrong and you don't have to forgive him but jesus christ.  He wants to be forgiven and he actually tries to earn it. Give the guy a break.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa - where did I say anything about 'no forgiveness for Blackwall'. Can you show in any of my comments that I said anything that even implies that?

 

 

 

 

In conclusion: Genocide is ok with good intentions. But murder is bad if you do it for gold?   What are you feelings on Zevran? Leliana? Josephine?  Literally every character in the game? 

 

I'm not trying to be an ass and please correct me if I mis-read you but that's how I interpret your post. 

 

.... Um, no? I wasn't even going in that direction. I never said that genocide is OK with good intentions - I simply said that there's more to Solas' actions than mass genocide and that it's hard to compare it to Blackwall's deeds, when both his intentions and deeds can be easily classified as criminal.

 

That does not mean that I say that he doesn't deserve forgiveness - I'm a big fan of second (sometimes even 3rd or 4th) chances and I always give it to Blackwall. That doesn't change the fact that it's hard to make straightforward comparisons between Blackwall and Solas, simply because the nature of what Solas did is not as easy to categorize.