153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Vorathrad]

*displays army of tiny team optimism flags*

 

Spoiler

My Lavellan will prove to that Stubborn Wolf that modern Thedas is worth saving.

 

Also, am I the only one horribly hurt at the thought that Solas seems to be willing to sacrifice everyone, including Lavellan?

 

*adds more tiny flags to the army*

[Miss This or That]

Spoiler

You know what's super sad? Solas probably already tried teaching people how to be like ancient elves, and it got twisted either due to personal feeling or honest misinterpretation. I'm talking about the Qun, by the way. Koslun might have been the prophet, but he either wrote down or was influenced by Solas. 

From what we've heard of individual Qunlat phrases, it sounds a lot like that codex entry in the Shattered Library about finding enlightenment and being able to locate the deepest parts of the Fade.

 

Spoiler

Ah yes, I totally forgot about that! Super, super tragic and totally fits him as a character. But Solas still behaves all high and mighty and doesn't give people second chances, not truly. If an Inquisitor does not try to be friendly with him, then he takes that as his sole reason for believing no one is truly real after all. Still, I also think he has no right to determine what is a right way to exist and what is not. I really like to take the Dwarves as an example here, who he pities. Yet they still have a functioning society and live their life and shape their own future. I think Sera actually puts it best. "His head is crammed up a thousand years ago." The Qun twisted his words and advice to something they could use, but then you have to think about the fact if he should have even told them how to live in the first place. Was that right? I don't know, but his plans truly to seem to backfire a lot. Working towards a future that is better and takes the good things from the past isn't enough for him. Because it isn't the same, and something that isn't the same just isn't enough for our Friend of Dread.

[Solas]

chuchu

Spoiler

forgotten ones were elves who opposed evanuris

 

most if not all pantheon were dicks maybe even mythal given some of the lore.

[Delphine]

Spoiler

Let me be up front. I respect your optimism and your desire to seek any possible method of redemption before killing Solas. I will likely be addressing a few different viewpoints shared in the thread along with yours, so don't feel as if I'm trying to put you down specifically, if the rest of this post gets to be all over the place.

 

That being said, I disagree with the interpretation on his hesitation to turn back time and how much his guilt over creating the Veil could be used to influence his opinion on staying in this world vs the ancient one. Solas doesn't lack for compassion and (developing very late in the main story)  empathy for other people in current Thedas. His desire to provide some peace for people before he destroys this timeline is admirable, but ultimately doesn't affect his interpretation that this is a terrible future that should never have come to pass, but did because he felt there was no other option at the time. He doesn't hesitate to build personal power or find opportunities to groom the Inquisitor to acquire power themselves if it would benefit his ultimate goal.

 

Mythal is apparently one of his oldest and most respected friends, and yet he takes her power to suit his own ends because he believes it is one of the fastest ways to gain the power required to make sure he succeeds. He could have easily waited several more decades (or centuries) to acquire power by alternative means, and yet he didn't. After Corypheus was defeated, he could have taken a slower path. He's either in a panicked "putting out fires" mode, or he feels that something coming on the horizon would make it impossible for him to succeed. That may be a double dragon blight. That may be the Veil weakening in places where the pantheon are locked away. It could also just as easily be the risk of becoming too close and involved with people in general, to have too much empathy and see everyone as "real" for him to actually push the Nuke It From Orbit ^TM button.

 

Yes, he feels a burden for snuffing out the lives of an entire world so that he may restore the empire and people of HIS time, but ONLY if your Inquisitor is friendly with him. Solas is not quite so caring to an Inquisitor who has built enough disapproval to essentially "prove" to Solas that people in modern Thedas are brutish and unworthy. That close-mindedness, especially regarding his comparison to modern people = Tranquil, is not an alternate path we should ignore when talking about the possibility for redemption. Dread Wolf might have been a moniker given by the pantheon to dehumanize him, but Solas is not afraid to take up that mantle and mindset when he feels it is necessary. Unfortunately, "necessary" for Solas also seems to coincide when he's feeling super emotional in any degree. 

 

That kind of passion, that emotional drive, can be of benefit or detriment depending on how it's implemented. Solas' passions to help slaves be free of their masters and remove their Vallaslin is an example of something beneficial. Killing an agent/friend because they had a slight change in opinion about another faction, but was still in the process of fulfilling the original goal is an example of a detriment. That's panic right there. Panic that Felassen might influence other agents, or worse, defect and start working toward a way to prevent Solas from succeeding. Running to Mythal with his tail between his legs after his orb broke, and then taking her power (it doesn't matter if she knew it was coming) a minute later is also an example of an emotional bad decision.

 

In our upcoming conflict with Solas, what about Inquisitors who are not quite as invested in saving his soul? There WILL be people who will choose the death-is-redemption option, and there will be others who will only try once or twice to give Solas an alternate path to take. Solas made it pretty clear at the end of Trespasser that while he would welcome the chance for a friend/romanced Inquisitor to prove him wrong, he doesn't believe it will happen. Helping alter his view that all people in modern Thedas are equivalent to Tranquil is on an entirely different scale than "hey, don't do that thing which will restore your home, friends, family, and way of life to how it was before the Veil and allow you to try a different way to prevent the pantheon from being dicks."

By virtue of spending a year being immersed in modern Thedas, and actually being forced to interact with a group of people for 1-2 years, he would have already been on the path to seeing people as "real" without our Inquisitor specifically being there as additional influence. 

 

Spoiler

I think it'll be extremely interesting to see how Bioware will address this in DA4, in regards of what options are gonna be available about Solas. I definitely understand your train of thoughts, where it's coming from, and why. But I still persist in believing in having a positive impact, at one point or another, through repeated attempts. When I look on my own personal journey in this life, many times I got stuck somewhere, for a long period of time, but then managed to overcome that, thanks to the people around me, and thanks to luck, as well. But growth takes time, and it doesn't happen overnight.

Solas is way deep in his emotional cage, despite how rational he thinks he is, and that ISN'T something you overcome in the blink of an eye either. It takes time, patience, and caring.

 

I don't feel you (or anyone) should give up on him, just because one year with us wasn't enough to make him grow. Nobody knows how long should be enough, and nobody should pretend to, that's not a very healthy mindset to me.

To make a vaguely coherent parallel, it's like telling an addict "ho, you should be clean now", or telling a clinically depressed person "you should be over your depression by now". We're all different, there's no rule to how long one needs to grow/fix themselves. It is a very personal and variable thing.

 

Now, we'll agree about "how long/deep is enough/harmful enough", because him being depressed, and not getting over his emotional turmoil of fcking up the world has real deep impact to our world, one that can't be ignored or brushed aside eternally. So how long is enough, that's the real question.

A question that I can't wait for Bioware to answer, and that they, so far, tried very hard to keep as open as possible, redemption path clearly included. And that doesn't come from me, but from them, it's their own wish and their own doing (maybe done to be misleading, though).

[Roxy]

Spoiler

I know some of you are not christians but I just want to say something I have been thinking today that since GOD gives all of us millions of second chances everyday I think I can give Solas a second chance and I hope Bioware will give us that option in the future.

 

*Always waves the optimistic flag*

 

Also this page is broke...again lol

[Solas]

Spoiler

Ever get the dialogue at the beginning of game about Solas asking about you being Dalish? When you ask how did he cross paths with them, he said he tried to share knowledge and was met with hostility.

Spoiler

I'm not pleased with him for this (I understand it tho, woke up new world all that. but), he only was around for a year - he's barely given them a chance. I doubt he even spent the entire year trying - he had other **** to do like agents, learning about the new world, etc.

[_Lucinia]

edit, stupid broken spoiler tags

[_Lucinia]

Spoiler

TEST!

[laurelinvanyar]

Spoiler

I think it'll be extremely interesting to see how Bioware will address this in DA4, in regards of what options are gonna be available about Solas. I definitely understand your train of thoughts, where it's coming from, and why. But I still persist in believing in having a positive impact, at one point or another, through repeated attempts. When I look on my own personal journey in this life, many times I got stuck somewhere, for a long period of time, but then managed to overcome that, thanks to the people around me, and thanks to luck, as well. But growth takes time, and it doesn't happen overnight.

Solas is way deep in his emotional cage, despite how rational he thinks he is, and that ISN'T something you overcome in the blink of an eye either. It takes time, patience, and caring.

 

I don't feel you (or anyone) should give up on him, just because one year with us wasn't enough to make him grow. Nobody knows how long should be enough, and nobody should pretend to, that's not a very healthy mindset to me.

To make a vaguely coherent parallel, it's like telling an addict "ho, you should be clean now", or telling a clinically depressed person "you should be over your depression by now". We're all different, there's no rule to how long one needs to grow/fix themselves. It is a very personal and variable thing.

 

Now, we'll agree about "how long/deep is enough/harmful enough", because him being depressed, and not getting over his emotional turmoil of fcking up the world has real deep impact to our world, one that can't be ignored or brushed aside eternally. So how long is enough, that's the real question.

A question that I can't wait for Bioware to answer, and that they, so far, tried very hard to keep as open as possible, redemption path clearly included. And that doesn't come from me, but from them, it's their own wish and their own doing (maybe done to be misleading, though).

I absolutely agree with you. People respond to different situations in their life differently. There's just one problem.

Spoiler

He's actively working to end the world. We are running out of time to convince him otherwise. By the time he comes around all on his own, thedas may be blown to smithereens.  

[Solas]

 

Spoiler

I'm sticking with Mythal is the mastermind and he's just following orders blindly because of his love for her.

 

Spoiler

She was probably also kind of a dick (just a dick of a different kind or only a semi-dick) and she's definitely not dead and def has her own agenda, but he's got more agency than that. He's to blame for what he's doing, it's on him.

[Cee]

Spoiler

I'm not pleased with him for this (I understand it tho, woke up new world all that. but), he only was around for a year - he's barely given them a chance. I doubt he even spent the entire year trying - he had other **** to do like agents, learning about the new world, etc.

 

Oh yes, I'm doing this. Because I agree.

 

[Solas]

Spoiler

yeah add to that the way he would have gone about it in his arrogance.. soon after waking up and pre DAI is peak UR NOT PPL time for him

[Cee]

*displays army of tiny team optimism flags*

 

Spoiler

My Lavellan will prove to that Stubborn Wolf that modern Thedas is worth saving.

 

Also, am I the only one horribly hurt at the thought that Solas seems to be willing to sacrifice everyone, including Lavellan?

 

*adds more tiny flags to the army*

 

Spoiler

 

You are not alone. But Lavellan isn't giving up, Cole isn't giving up, I'm not giving up.

 

I think the fact Lavellan can hear him say such a cold thing to her, in spite of obvious deep love, and still believe she has a chance to help him, stop him, and save him from himself...well that is a testament to her character.

 

 

[midnight tea]

Spoiler

When I say a "viable alternative", I'm talking about "a world state where everything doesn't go up in flames". Burninating the world to me is not a viable alternative to the Circles of magi. No doubt SOLAS thinks it a viable alternative, but the people still living in modern thedas may have cause to disagree. 

 

What is it Solas says to Cassandra about his beliefs? Cause and effect. Wisdom as its own reward, and the inherent right of all free willed people to exist. Here he is going directly against those stated beliefs by playing god with his new plan. Of course, that assumes he DOES see modern thedas people as people. 

 

You said something along the lines of "Please dont tell me_____". I was worried you were taking this exchange a bit personally. If you're cool, I'm cool.

 

[spoilers]

We were talking about what Solas thinks is a viable alternative, therefore the point still stands

 

We also don't know if, say, the Grey Wardens aren't really making things worse in the end, impending apocalypse or no. I recently finished a playthrough in which I asked Stroud in Skyhold why GW would even do such things as blood rituals or digging to remaining Old Gods. He responded that if it wasn't for his suspicions that it was Corypheus or other malignant force's meddling with the Order, he would be still following his leaders and digging out the Old Gods with the rest of Wardens.

 

Also, Solas tells, maybe even more than once that sometimes there are things that have to be done out of necessity, or that regrettable actions must be taken. Going against his own beliefs is probably a thing he's done more than once, even if he genuinely hates himself for it and thinks of himself as beyond redemption.

 

 

And nah, I hardly ever go very emotional during Internet conversations, though I suppose sometimes my language may imply that I do^^; I'm cool.[/spoiler]

[electricfish]

I absolutely agree with you. People respond to different situations in their life differently. There's just one problem.

Spoiler

He's actively working to end the world. We are running out of time to convince him otherwise. By the time he comes around all on his own, thedas may be blown to smithereens.  

 

Yyyeah, it's more like being hooked up to the addict or the depressed person via umbilical cord. If they get better, the world/us gets better and doesn't end. If they spiral, we get taken down with them.

[Cee]

Not sure if I should spoiler this or not, but I will anyways just to be safe.

 

Spoiler

I can't help but feel like there's some truth somewhere we're all missing.  Something just isn't adding up for me.  It's not a matter of being in denial and unwilling to accept Solas's plans.  I never forget that he lies by omission sometimes. 

 

The Evanuris went crazy with power, killed Mythal, and were destroying the world.  So he had to create the Veil to trap them forever, which inadvertently destroyed the world (in a way) anyways.  He needs to save his people, so he's going to remove the Veil, which will also free the Evanuris.  So he did it all for nothing?  o.O

 

I chose a conversation option that said I saw the stuff written about him and know that he's not a bad person (paraphrasing) and he says something about the stories being written in desperation that give him more credit than he deserves.  I'm not sure what point I am trying to reach for.  I'm just throwing random thoughts out there, because I feel like there's some nugget of truth that's dangling in front of our noses. 

 

Or I am just way off base.  I dunno.  I'm open to anything at this point.  I like discussing this stuff.  There's just so many things contradicting each other for me right now.  Is it really, truly as simple as him valuing kindness and compassion because he wants people to have some happiness and comfort before he wipes them out of existence?  I kind of think that Trespasser-Solas has hardened his heart to a cutting edge because that's the only way he can do what he thinks must be done.  Blah I am rambling.  I have a lot rolling around in my head and can't articulate a lot of it right now.

 

I think there are still multiple missing pieces and things we presumed were one way but were another.

[Delphine]

Spoiler

I know some of you are not christians but I just want to say something I have been thinking today that since GOD gives all of us millions of second chances everyday I think I can give Solas a second chance and I hope Bioware will give us that option in the future.

 

Agnostic here, but that's always something I thought to be very positive in Christianity: teaching people to forgive. I think it's vital, as a human being, to learn to forgive others, and to forgive ourselves too, even though that one is trickier to apply. At least to me. Maybe that's why I relate to Solas.

[Oswin]

I've decided how I want the Inquisitor to cameo in DA4.

 

Spoiler

Anytime your new protagonist finds themselves in a situation involving the elves/agents of Fen'Harel, if they stop to look around they'll always notice in a nearby bush. The Inquisitor.

 

Dedicating their time to being the ultimate stalker of the Dread Wolf.

 

Solas thinks he can predict their every move? PFft. I bet he'd never predict the Inquisitor would always be hiding in some nearby shrubbery.

 

Yeah.

 

It is so on.

 

You don't think he'll try to go after the Tevinter elves do you? If he believes everyone should die in comfort, then why not help out some Tevinter elf slaves, no?

I'm just trying to think of how they might tie him in to a story in Tevinter. Other than just finding people the Inquisition doesn't know (because they could go to Antiva or Rivain for that. Tevinter is the only one that comes with known bad times for elves). Time for another Elven Slave rebellion! Wooohooo!

 

I need to go and re-read EVERYTHING. With the knowledge of how the veil got there and what the world was before, I really need to go back and read about Old Gods and Darkspawn and the fade and elven lore. There's probably so many damn clues that meant nothing to me before hand. I'm also forgetting what started pre-veil and after-veil.

 

...I wonder what the other options were, seeing as he says "Every alternative was worse" 

The only alternative he mentions was the non-veil option - letting the Elven Gods destroy the world. 

Which is er, kinda what happened anyway. Although he doesn't seem to think that. "I can bring it back! By destroying the world!"

*head/desk*

 

I need to be asleep now. Stupid Solas on the brain.

 

 

[Caddius]

Ok - so here's the thing. And I don't have to spoiler this. Just because you understand someone's intent and perhaps their emotional state, doesn't stop them from being wrong. Cole can feel ALL the compassion he wants. He can understand the motivations behind someone. But that doesn't mean he approves of their course of action. 

Moreover, Solas has forced Cole to forget. He does it at the end of DA:I and he'll probably continue to do it. Hence why Human Cole might be the safe option, if you want a Cole who is as honest with you as you need him to be.
 

As for the heart not capable of cruelty bit.. Did you see what he did to those mages? Mages who didn't know better?

Spoiler

Did you see what he did to the rest of the pantheon? For Mythal's murder he separated them from the physical world AND PUNISHED THEM FOR ETERNITY. That was his goal. It wasn't a rap on the wrist, it wasn't punishment for a period of time, it wasn't an attempt to rehabilitate.. He thought to make them suffer for what they did. FOREVER. Except now plans have changed because his veil-fade-prison isn't the fix-all he hoped it to be.

Moreover, have you played another character who isn't a Lavellan who doesn't agree with him? What he says to you is VILE. He condemns you! He doesn't seek to understand your motives, where you came from - no. You're an inexcusable brute. Whose disappearance from reality he'll meet with relish. Because he doesn't. think. you. are. real. You are a mistake to be rectified.

TL;DR: Solas is a person just like everyone else. With GLORIOUS FLAWS and heartbreaking intents. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have nasty sides to him. Just like we all do. Except hopefully none of us have genocidal tendencies.

Spoiler

We're in agreement that he has his nasty side, but the Evanuris weren't sealed behind the Veil for the sole purpose of eternal punishment for Mythal's murder.
He explicitly says that he only created the Veil because every alternative was worse, and the Evanuris were doing something that would destroy the world. While he takes a wry moment to note the appropriate punishment, it wasn't designed as punishment. 'The first of my people do not die easily'. By sealing them away, he prevented them from carrying out their plans and making things even worse. He never thought the Veil was a fix-all, he thought it was a desperately ugly solution to an gly problem. It turned out to be even worse than he feared.
What worries me is how he still seems to see it all as a better alternative to what the Evanuris were doing that was going beyond the pale. What on earth were they doing?

[Delphine]

Yyyeah, it's more like being hooked up to the addict or the depressed person via umbilical cord. If they get better, the world/us gets better and doesn't end. If they spiral, we get taken down with them.

 

In a sense, yeah, Lavellan has to go the opposite but still extreme end of the spectrum on which Solas is, to try and save his stupid face.

Again, I cannot wait to see how Bioware will handle this, and what type of message they want to share through that particular story.

[midnight tea]

*displays army of tiny team optimism flags*

 

Spoiler

My Lavellan will prove to that Stubborn Wolf that modern Thedas is worth saving.

 

Also, am I the only one horribly hurt at the thought that Solas seems to be willing to sacrifice everyone, including Lavellan?

 

*adds more tiny flags to the army*

 

Spoiler

Well, I suppose all the elves who are actually working for him and maybe are even aware what he's planning may also feel hurt if they feel like he sacrificed everything - including them - for a woman he loved. He obviously loves Lavellan deeply, but he won't sacrifice the elvhen people just for his or her personal happiness. It would be way too selfish.

 

Also - would your Lavellan agree to this? If, say, Solas managed to just save her, or sacrificed many elves just to be with her? I don't think mine would ever be comfortable with this.

[Jeniva]

Spoiler

screw whole of thedas. I just wanted Lavellan to run off with him. I think he might end up killing himself trying to do what he's doing...damn Solas Not even a brief happy moment. And everyone was so raging at my lavellan when she was all: we have to save Solas!