153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Mims]

Spoiler

What I'm wondering is... if Dirthamen wasn't a Forgotten One. Masquerading around as a pantheon member. I was so intent on seeing Falon'Din as the worst of the two, but it might be the Dirthamen fed Falon'Din, the actual son of Mythal, all of the lies and validation necessary to give him the hubris he needed to destroy the pantheon from the inside. God of secrets indeed.

 

Spoiler

This would be very interesting. If I remember right, the statue in Flemeth/Mythal's fade zone is one associated with Dirthamen, and its stabbed through the back and bleeding. 

[Moondreamer01]

SPOILER ART AHEAD!

 

On a lighter note

 

http://paticmak.tumb...k-at-that-trash

[Cee]

Spoiler

I did my first time through it, mostly because I couldn't figure out how to get rid of that cart. No different outcome other than a dead dragon and the Viddasala mocking you for letting an innocent creature die.

 

Thanks. Was just curious. I actually loaded like three times because I had the same initial issue.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[midnight tea]

Spoiler

I'm not under the impression that modern elves are going to survive the removal of the veil. here are some quotes from the conversation:

 

"My people fell for what I did to strike the Evanuris down, but still some hope remains for restoration" 

Modern elves are STILL not his people. Over and over Solas makes this clear. 

 

"I will save the elven people even if it means this world must die"

Are modern elves not part of THIS world?

 

Spoiler

Remember how Solas talked with Cassandra about the Tranquil? How he said that the magic and connection with the Fade as well as control of emotions is like a muscle, and it atrophies without use? That restoring the Tranquil to previous state would likely kill them?

And that's just Tranquil who were sundered out of the Fade for some time, but not their entire life, while there are entire GENERATIONS of people (including elves) who have never had a strong connection to it. I think when the Veil drops, most people will experience what might be 'a magical overload' - the mostly unconscious connection of the Fade they have, with the rest being blocked by the Veil, it's too little to give them a protection before getting in contact with the raw Fade. Just like demons are unable to comprehend the real world, hence they appear monstrous and deformed, most people would likely not be able to comprehend the shifting nature of the Fade and their bodies will disintegrate.

 

Of course, there might be something else as well.

 

 

If corypheus hadn't meddled: "I would have entered the fade, using the mark you now bear. Then I would have torn down the veil. As this world burned in the raw chaos, I would have restored the world of my time... the time of the elves."

 

Notice that he didn't say that he'd restore the elvhen civilization. He said that he'd restore the world 'of his time' and 'of the elves', but not necessarily the elves themselves.

 

 

Most damning of all: "We aren't people to you?" "Not at first. You showed me that I was wrong... again. That does not make what must come next any easier."

Why would he be working so hard to save people he didn't consider people? Pre-corypheus, clearly he wasn't doing this for the benefit of the modern elves. The entire point of that exchange was him telling you that DESPITE starting to see modern people as full people, he intends to go through with his plan anyway. 

 

Um, how do you know he wasn't doing anything for modern elves  ? He said that he awoke a year before Cory and yet before that he seemed to have his network of agents, working towards his plan. He also said in base DAI that he tried to give elves and Dalish some advice, but was mostly rejected. Therefore I'm not sure why claim he's doing nothing, even if at that time he kept everyone alive in Thedas at a distance.

 

 

He also answered Inky why he's doing this for people he may still not view as his, even if they're about to die - to give the world some comfort and peace before the inevitable end. A calm before the storm.

 

I also assume he also has pretty pragmatic motives - war breeds demons and bad emotions, meaning more bad things happening to the Fade. The calmer things are, especially after calamity that was the Breach, the better for both worlds.

 

 

"Why bother disrupting the Qunari plot, if you're going to destroy the world regardless?" "I take no joy in what I must do. Until that day comes, I would see [people] free of the Qun. If they must die, I would rather they die in comfort."

...I don't know how he could make this clearer. EVERYBODY is going to die.

 

I think he was pretty clear about that  Question is what that 'death' means. Death of everything physical? I mean, it's pretty obvious at this point that everybody alive in this world begins as a spirit/has a spirit. It may yet be that what Solas plans is stripping everyone of their previous shapes and make them all like his people were before. Hence Sandal's prophecy - "everyone will be just like they were'. Which likely means spirit-like beings with shifting, half-physical forms.

 

[AutumnOracle]

Spoiler

And it fits right in with Tyrdda Bright-Axe!!! HOLY CRAP. Woooooahhh! Okay. I promise. You guys'll be getting a big post tonight.

I want this post!

 

Also my two cents on how I think Solas will proceed:

Spoiler

I think that they have set this game up that he won't be the big baddy.  I think they will resolve him in the next game. Either mid or end game ala some of the staggered section in DA:I.  I think that death will obviously be an option(for people who didn't redeem him) but that for those of us who picked redeem it will remain an option that exists beyond death.  My bets on his starting the domino collapse that leads to something bigger and then ultimately realizing(probably through our intervention) that he's done something royally stupid.  He will then have to help defeat/stop the course of actions he put in to play.

 

I killed Anders...but that's cause he asked for it.  I don't see Solas asking for death if he realizes his mistakes.  I see him struggling the rest of his life to atone as he encouraged Blackwall/Rainier to do.

[Illyria]

@Illyria

 

Spoiler

Solas posted about the forbidden one, I pointed a codex about them being spirit, realized they'd edited their post with the codex, then we both ended up deleting our posts at about the same time cause we were pretty much saying the same thing.

 

Thanks.

 

Spoiler

Meaning the possibility of fighting Solas and killing him was in the draft at first, but they canceled it because they decided he was going to be the main antagonist of DA4? It's interesting, what goes on behind the closed doors of a video game development team, I'd love to know more, and why.

 

Spoiler

I think it would've been an option to try to fight him - possibly ending up on a two on one or one on one challanging boss fight. But you would be able to kill him.  He's been planned as a major player for far too long now to kill in a DLC

 

--

 

Solavellan Trespasser thoughts:

 

Spoiler

Ages ago I made a post about the some of the Solas flirt options and how they're not really actual flirts, but things that Lavellan says that make him fall in love with her.  Given what we find out in Trespasser I think I was just proved right.

 

Solas, Mythal, Morrigan thoughts:

 

Spoiler

According to the base game dev notes Flemeth gave her godhood to Morrigan.  If this is still true and not just left over notes from an older draft then I think the soul wisp/power situation is this:

 

Morrigan got the Mythal part of her - the part that has a personality, and a plan.  Solas got the power.  Flemythal has something planned that will involve whoever drank from the Well, and the power she's loaned Solas.  I think Mythal-in-Morrigan is going to show up to continue Mythal's plans and ruin Solas'.  And maybe Mythal's will be worse than Solas'.

[Moondreamer01]

Spoiler

Remember how Solas talked with Cassandra about the Tranquil? How he said that the magic and connection with the Fade as well as control of emotions is like a muscle, and it atrophies without use? That restoring the Tranquil to previous state would likely kill them?

And that's just Tranquil who were sundered out of the Fade for some time, but not their entire life, while there are entire GENERATIONS of people (including elves) who have never had a strong connection to it. I think when the Veil drops, most people will experience what might be 'a magical overload' - the mostly unconscious connection of the Fade they have, with the rest being blocked by the Veil, it's too little to give them a protection before getting in contact with the raw Fade. Just like demons are unable to comprehend the real world, hence they appear monstrous and deformed, most people would likely not be able to comprehend the shifting nature of the Fade and their bodies will disintegrate.

 

Of course, there might be something else as well.

 

 

Notice that he didn't say that he'd restore the elvhen civilization. He said that he'd restore the world 'of his time' and 'of the elves', but not necessarily the elves themselves.

 

 

Um, how do you know he wasn't doing anything for modern elves  ? He said that he awoke a year before Cory and yet before that he seemed to have his network of agents, working towards his plan. He also said in base DAI that he tried to give elves and Dalish some advice, but was mostly rejected. Therefore I'm not sure why claim he's doing nothing, even if at that time he kept everyone alive in Thedas at a distance.

 

 

He also answered Inky why he's doing this for people he may still not view as his, even if they're about to die - to give the world some comfort and peace before the inevitable end. A calm before the storm.

 

I also assume he also has pretty pragmatic motives - war breeds demons and bad emotions, meaning more bad things happening to the Fade. The calmer things are, especially after calamity that was the Breach, the better for both worlds.

 

 

I think he was pretty clear about that  Question is what that 'death' means. Death of everything physical? I mean, it's pretty obvious at this point that everybody alive in this world begins as a spirit/has a spirit. It may yet be that what Solas plans is stripping everyone of their previous shapes and make them all like his people were before. Hence Sandal's prophecy - "everyone will be just like they were'. Which likely means spirit-like beings with shifting, half-physical forms.

 

 

Spoiler

We know spirit can reform. We learn Wisdom will most probably reappear at some point, after their death in All New Faded for her. I'm more and more leaning towrd Solas actually wanting to actually press Thedas' big red reset btoom. A complete tabula rasa. Bring the world back to a time where nothing but spirit existed and let thinsg fall where they may. The world will eveolved again, a clean slate, hoping it would do things better this time. Worse yet, I very much think doing such a thing would kill him too. He's also been sundered too long to survive it. Or the process of bringing down the veil itself would kill him. 

 

So, like wisdom, the whole of Thedas would reform, different. What he doesn't get is that whatever form next won't be his perfect utopia. Nothing can ever be perfect

 

[Aviena]

 

Spoiler

 

Um, how do you know he wasn't doing anything for modern elves    ? He said that he awoke a year before Cory and yet before that he seemed to have his network of agents, working towards his plan. He also said in base DAI that he tried to give elves and Dalish some advice, but was mostly rejected. Therefore I'm not sure why claim he's doing nothing, even if at that time he kept everyone alive in Thedas at a distance.

 

 

Spoiler

Well he does say to Lavellan "the restoration of my people must mean the end of yours". Remember, Abelas doesn't see modern elves as REAL elves either. Sure, he's using the modern elves, but I can't bring myself to believe that he intends to try to save THEM.

 

[Avejajed]

What's going on here?

[Solas]

Spoiler

sorry if this upsets people and you're free to think otherwise! - I think any modern elves he's working with are tools, chesspieces he moves around as a means to an end. not to say he enjoys it but they're not people to him, and not his people, he plainly references using people lots of the time in the past to accomplish his goals so.. in the past, he was not even above using his actual people as well. he wishes them comfort in their remaining days in the same way you store tools in a padded tool box instead of throwing them all over the floor when you're not using them.. he offs felassan just because felassan began to think they WERE people.

[Miss This or That]

Spoiler

Well he does say to Lavellan "the restoration of my people must mean the end of yours". Remember, Abelas doesn't see modern elves as REAL elves either. Sure, he's using the modern elves, but I can't bring myself to believe that he intends to try to save THEM.

 

 

Spoiler

I think Solas' ruthlessness when it comes to the modern elves that he builds up to be his army can be easily seen in his mental chess match with the Iron Bull. If it helps him win, he's willing to sacrifice everything - he's such a man of "the end justifies the means" that he just needs enough chess pieces in his plan to doom the world. If he has to sacrifice his army of modern elves in doing so, then he does it. Not because he finds joy in it, but because it is what he must do to win.

[S.W.]

Spoiler

Remember how Solas talked with Cassandra about the Tranquil? How he said that the magic and connection with the Fade as well as control of emotions is like a muscle, and it atrophies without use? That restoring the Tranquil to previous state would likely kill them?

And that's just Tranquil who were sundered out of the Fade for some time, but not their entire life, while there are entire GENERATIONS of people (including elves) who have never had a strong connection to it. I think when the Veil drops, most people will experience what might be 'a magical overload' - the mostly unconscious connection of the Fade they have, with the rest being blocked by the Veil, it's too little to give them a protection before getting in contact with the raw Fade. Just like demons are unable to comprehend the real world, hence they appear monstrous and deformed, most people would likely not be able to comprehend the shifting nature of the Fade and their bodies will disintegrate.

 

Of course, there might be something else as well.

 

Spoiler

Just adding to this train of thought - if people have a stronger connection to the fade, if they 'exercise' that connection, and if therefore they'd be more likely to survive a transformation of the world where the fade becomes part of it again, then the qun is absolutely the worst thing that could happen to Thedas in preparation for the destruction of the veil.

 

If you want to maximise the amount of people who survive the transition, you want to encourage them to become active in the fade. You want to encourage understanding of that world, to limit fear of spirits, to send mages and non-mages to the fade frequently in dreams if possible. You might even encourage practices the avaar have towards spirits, such as when they let spirits posses mages temporarily for training. In comparison, the qun views magic with suspicion and treats that it cannot understand as something relating to demons.

 

of course, this is a really, really twisted and sick point of view that assumes the second coming destruction of the veil is inevitable and cannot be stopped. In reality, it's a choice - Solas' choice. Rather than limit the amount of people who are killed, he could just not kill them at all. Which is why our Inquisitors will oppose him - either by changing his mind or just stopping him entirely.

[Cee]

Someone stop my finger from pressing play on these Solas Trespasser videos.

[Illyria]

Someone stop my finger from pressing play on these Solas Trespasser videos.

 

*bats Cee's hand away from the play button*

 

Go play Life is Strange!

[laurelinvanyar]

Spoiler

Remember how Solas talked with Cassandra about the Tranquil? How he said that the magic and connection with the Fade as well as control of emotions is like a muscle, and it atrophies without use? That restoring the Tranquil to previous state would likely kill them?

And that's just Tranquil who were sundered out of the Fade for some time, but not their entire life, while there are entire GENERATIONS of people (including elves) who have never had a strong connection to it. I think when the Veil drops, most people will experience what might be 'a magical overload' - the mostly unconscious connection of the Fade they have, with the rest being blocked by the Veil, it's too little to give them a protection before getting in contact with the raw Fade. Just like demons are unable to comprehend the real world, hence they appear monstrous and deformed, most people would likely not be able to comprehend the shifting nature of the Fade and their bodies will disintegrate.

 

Of course, there might be something else as well.

 

 

Notice that he didn't say that he'd restore the elvhen civilization. He said that he'd restore the world 'of his time' and 'of the elves', but not necessarily the elves themselves.

 

 

Um, how do you know he wasn't doing anything for modern elves  ? He said that he awoke a year before Cory and yet before that he seemed to have his network of agents, working towards his plan. He also said in base DAI that he tried to give elves and Dalish some advice, but was mostly rejected. Therefore I'm not sure why claim he's doing nothing, even if at that time he kept everyone alive in Thedas at a distance.

 

 

He also answered Inky why he's doing this for people he may still not view as his, even if they're about to die - to give the world some comfort and peace before the inevitable end. A calm before the storm.

 

I also assume he also has pretty pragmatic motives - war breeds demons and bad emotions, meaning more bad things happening to the Fade. The calmer things are, especially after calamity that was the Breach, the better for both worlds.

 

 

I think he was pretty clear about that  Question is what that 'death' means. Death of everything physical? I mean, it's pretty obvious at this point that everybody alive in this world begins as a spirit/has a spirit. It may yet be that what Solas plans is stripping everyone of their previous shapes and make them all like his people were before. Hence Sandal's prophecy - "everyone will be just like they were'. Which likely means spirit-like beings with shifting, half-physical forms.

 

...are we really going to debate what "death" means? lol

 

Spoiler

If everybody is just going to become a spirit again, why should Solas feel guilty at all about his plans when he clearly does? Also, the codex about Xebenkeck pretty much refutes your idea that all people were spirit people hybrid. Also the spirit teacher teaching elven students. Pretty sure elves and spirits are different things, veil or no veil.

[AutumnOracle]

Okay...so it's been two days since the DLC released.  I find it completely fair to expect a DA4 announcement...tomorrow right?  I mean seriously I can't wait as long for the next one as this one....I just can't handle it emotionally. Also at work...my productivity drops when I think of Solas....

[Cee]

*bats Cee's hand away from the play button*

 

Go play Life is Strange!

 

 

Spoiler

 

Mostly just seeing other branches of the dialogue options.

 

Oh, Solas.

 

L: "Why does this world have to die for the elves to return?"

S: "A good question. But not one I will answer. You have always shown a thoughtfulness I respected. It would be too easy to tell you too much."

 

His smile-regret-wistful expression here. Layers of sad.

 

And if you tell him "We were pawns" - you didn't care, you used us,  he says

"You were people, and you deserved better. Like all the rest I have used in one hopeless battle after another."

 

 

 

I'm done....for now. I think.

[Illyria]

Okay...so it's been two days since the DLC released.  I find it completely fair to expect a DA4 announcement...tomorrow right?  I mean seriously I can't wait as long for the next one as this one....I just can't handle it emotionally. Also at work...my productivity drops when I think of Solas....

 

Soon^tm

[midnight tea]

...are we really going to debate what "death" means? lol

 

I was simply musing. We don't yet have the full picture - but we do know that death in Thedas is different than it is here. Spirits can also die as well - only to be recreated. We know some beings or spirits have ability to be 'reborn', while other can jump bodies. Therefore death in Thedas may have many meanings, or different results.

 

Spoiler

 

 

If everybody is just going to become a spirit again, why should Solas feel guilty at all about his plans when he clearly does? Also, the codex about Xebenkeck pretty much refutes your idea that all people were spirit people hybrid. Also the spirit teacher teaching elven students. Pretty sure elves and spirits are different things, veil or no veil.

 

Well then why is Cole on a road to becoming human, if we choose that path for him? Why is Solas gushing over Lavellan's "rare and marvellous spirit"? Why are there quite a few codexes in elvhen destroyed library that suggest that elves indeed are quite spirit-like (not necessarily spirits per se, but close enough) and have shifting forms?

Also - the fact that spirits remained doesn't mean that personality of those who lived survived, ultimately meaning that what they were will eventually be destroyed - even if the potential of what they can be remained. And Solas is all about individuality and recognizing even spirits as sentient beings. Why then he wouldn't mourn people he intends to sacrifice - or at least mourn the fact that he ultimately does something he's very much against: robbing people of their choices and memories, even if only for the sake of transition or survival?

[_Lucinia]

Spoiler

 

Mostly just seeing other branches of the dialogue options.

 

Oh, Solas.

 

L: "Why does this world have to die for the elves to return?"

S: "A good question. But not one I will answer. You have always shown a thoughtfulness I respected. It would be too easy to tell you too much."

 

And if you tell him "We were pawns" - you didn't care, you used us,  he says

"You were people, and you deserved better. Like all the rest I have used in one hopeless battle after another."

 

 

 

I'm done....for now. I think.

Spoiler

I always come back to this codex:

 

Spoiler

 

Which very well could be something the Evanuris spread around .

[Rekkampum]

Spoiler

 

Mostly just seeing other branches of the dialogue options.

 

Oh, Solas.

 

L: "Why does this world have to die for the elves to return?"

S: "A good question. But not one I will answer. You have always shown a thoughtfulness I respected. It would be too easy to tell you too much."

 

His smile-regret-wistful expression here. Layers of sad.

 

And if you tell him "We were pawns" - you didn't care, you used us,  he says

"You were people, and you deserved better. Like all the rest I have used in one hopeless battle after another."

 

 

 

I'm done....for now. I think.

 

Spoiler

I personally enjoyed it when he compared humans not being intuitively connected to the Fade like elves are to tranquil. I will definitely play as my human quizzy to see how the responses turn out. That aside, I totally loved how unmistakeably ruthless he is. He's evil to an extent, but not comic book evil. And even that can be up for question if the player sympathizes with his cause. I really want to know more about how Solas was able to create the veil, because that takes a helluva lot of skill.

[electricfish]

Spoiler

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Mythal was kind of like the Godfather of the elven pantheon. Elgar'nan was supposedly the first of the gods, but from the snippets of codexes and lore we've gotten, Mythal was pretty clearly able to call the shots. Taking control of meting out justice? Totally took that away from Elgar'nan and painted it as a beneficial thing to make his burdens easier to bear.

 

She's also seen as the mother figure to both elves in general and the pantheon specifically. Solas says she was the "first of his people," which likely refers to those generals who were risen up to godhood after the Big War. She was the first, the inspiration, and the guiding force for the rest of the pantheon. A bit like the Godfather of a mob, she influences those "family" members closest to her, paints herself as this benevolent figure, treats her followers well if they obey and praise, and kills or hounds those who do her wrong. She's not afraid to get her hands dirty, and we've seen time and time again that she's always referred to as this clever figure who can do no wrong. Even as Flemythal, she's mysterious, cryptic, and gives off the air of being dangerous and knowing a lot more than she's letting on.

 

I think up until this point, we've seen a very one sided perspective of Mythal, compared to learning more and more horrors about the rest of the pantheon (anyone else catch that halla bit in the Taken Shape?). Solas himself has a very positive view on Mythal and thinks of her as the best and kindest of the gods. For someone who was a rebel and saw all the flaws of dickish god-kings, he has nothing bad to say about her. That sounds a bit like someone who drank the kool-aid of her propaganda, held her up on a bit of a pedestal, and may have even had the idea planted in his head to be the rebel Dread Wolf by Mythal herself.

 

Nobles need a Red Jenny bogeyman to feel safe, right? What is Solas if not the ancient elvhen bogeyman? And then, oh crap, he got Mythal killed because reasons, and then he created the Veil to stop the fallout of that from ruining the lives of the elvhen people. If Mythal was killed because her pet Dread Wolf got out of hand, or she got pushed in front of the murder knife by Solas (not literally, figuratively due to bad information or the actions of his own generals), who do you think would be involved in her "get revenge" quest? Not just Dirthamen, who maybe made the killing blow or was actually a general of Solas, but she might be gearing up to smack down Solas himself in the worst way possible.

[Avejajed]

Poor Patrick on Twitter

[Mims]

Spoiler

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Mythal was kind of like the Godfather of the elven pantheon. Elgar'nan was supposedly the first of the gods, but from the snippets of codexes and lore we've gotten, Mythal was pretty clearly able to call the shots. Taking control of meting out justice? Totally took that away from Elgar'nan and painted it as a beneficial thing to make his burdens easier to bear.

 

She's also seen as the mother figure to both elves in general and the pantheon specifically. Solas says she was the "first of his people," which likely refers to those generals who were risen up to godhood after the Big War. She was the first, the inspiration, and the guiding force for the rest of the pantheon. A bit like the Godfather of a mob, she influences those "family" members closest to her, paints herself as this benevolent figure, treats her followers well if they obey and praise, and kills or hounds those who do her wrong. She's not afraid to get her hands dirty, and we've seen time and time again that she's always referred to as this clever figure who can do no wrong. Even as Flemythal, she's mysterious, cryptic, and gives off the air of being dangerous and knowing a lot more than she's letting on.

 

I think up until this point, we've seen a very one sided perspective of Mythal, compared to learning more and more horrors about the rest of the pantheon (anyone else catch that halla bit in the Taken Shape?). Solas himself has a very positive view on Mythal and thinks of her as the best and kindest of the gods. For someone who was a rebel and saw all the flaws of dickish god-kings, he has nothing bad to say about her. That sounds a bit like someone who drank the kool-aid of her propaganda, held her up on a bit of a pedestal, and may have even had the idea planted in his head to be the rebel Dread Wolf by Mythal herself.

 

Nobles need a Red Jenny bogeyman to feel safe, right? What is Solas if not the ancient elvhen bogeyman? And then, oh crap, he got Mythal killed because reasons, and then he created the Veil to stop the fallout of that from ruining the lives of the elvhen people. If Mythal was killed because her pet Dread Wolf got out of hand, or she got pushed in front of the murder knife by Solas (not literally, figuratively due to bad information or the actions of his own generals), who do you think would be involved in her "get revenge" quest? Not just Dirthamen, who maybe made the killing blow or was actually a general of Solas, but she might be gearing up to smack down Solas himself in the worst way possible.

 

Spoiler

You know, that is a very interesting thought. I don't think Solas actually had anything to do directly with Mythal's murder [otherwise there would be no reason to feed that bit of information to the players in such a direct manner]- but it is very possible that Mythal resents that Solas left his position as her guardian which left her open for attack. They make a point in showing how often Mythal is accompanied by Fen'Harel, almost like a guard dog.