153434 réponses à ce sujet

[Solas]

Good morning dears.

 

I don't wish to upset anyone or cloud anyone with negativity who would prefer to keep to the optimistic line of thinking, so I'm prefacing this with this warning. Please feel free to skip over what's in the spoiler tags and disregard this post (Trespasser spoilers also), it won't make you feel warm or happy I'm afraid.

Spoiler

I want to save Solas, but considering the literary use of redemption through death, I think he's an ideal candidate. This is not Sten who murdered a family for a sword, or Thom Rainier who killed a noble and his family for gold. We're talking actions which impacted the very fabric and structure of reality, caused the instant deaths and entrapment of likely hundreds if not thousands of people (see the 'voices' of elves who were stuck and cried out in rage at the actions of Fen'Harel in the Shattered Library. the ancient empire spanned Thedas and likely had dozens of such places ['the marvels dependent on the Fade']. such a fate would have befallen more than the few voices we hear in the DLC) and then the subsequent deaths of thousands and thousands more (the elves falling to war and becoming carrion for Tevinter) and then the subjugation and extensive, intense suffering (including killings) of.. hundreds of thousands (??) of elves through the following Ages. Well-intended, yes, a mistake in many ways, yes, but still the reality of what he has done remains. These are actions on a literally genocidal scale, just like Mordin Solus. It's Anders multiplied by several orders of magnitude. If Solas' arc ends with his redemption through death, that isn't the writers copping out or using a tired technique imo, it's literally a fitting end for a man who brought about genocide and still intends to commit genocide going forward. Cool motive, still murder.

[Abelis]

On another note (i wont put it in a spoiler, as its from previous games) if Sandal's prophesy comes true they way it is hinted, it means that the future is predetermined, no way to change it. Mythal, in DA2 says "Is is fate or chance? I can never decide". My "evil" self feels the devs are a bit trolling us like "Do you think we will give you the choice of having different total endings about Thedas world, or give you choices that lead to the same conclusion because we already know where we are going with this story?"

[Janic99]

Spoiler

The way they're holding hands is heartbreaking...

 

 

 

 

Do iiiit! You'll spend more time messing around with flycam than playing the game

Spoiler

Yea when I flycammed I saw Solas takin Lavellan's hand with both hands and then putting the other one on her cheek... it was so sweet, these are from my vids... so the quality is not as good since youtube wants to f*ck it up a little.. sorry about cursing  

[Eurowande]

Good morning dears.

 

I don't wish to upset anyone or cloud anyone with negativity who would prefer to keep to the optimistic line of thinking, so I'm prefacing this with this warning. Please feel free to skip over what's in the spoiler tags and disregard this post (Trespasser spoilers also), it won't make you feel warm or happy I'm afraid.

Spoiler

I want to save Solas, but considering the literary use of redemption through death, I think he's an ideal candidate. This is not Sten who murdered a family for a sword, or Thom Rainier who killed a noble and his family for gold. We're talking actions which impacted the very fabric and structure of reality, caused the instant deaths and entrapment of likely hundreds if not thousands of people (see the 'voices' of elves who were stuck and cried out in rage at the actions of Fen'Harel in the Shattered Library. the ancient empire spanned Thedas and likely had dozens of such places ['the marvels dependent on the Fade']. such a fate would have befallen more than the few voices we hear in the DLC) and then the subsequent deaths of thousands and thousands more (the elves falling to war and becoming carrion for Tevinter) and then the subjugation and extensive, intense suffering (including killings) of.. hundreds of thousands (??) of elves through the following Ages. Well-intended, yes, a mistake in many ways, yes, but still the reality of what he has done remains. These are actions on a literally genocidal scale, just like Mordin Solus. It's Anders multiplied by several orders of magnitude. If Solas' arc ends with his redemption through death, that isn't the writers copping out or using a tired technique imo, it's literally a fitting end for a man who brought about genocide and still intends to commit genocide going forward. Cool motive, still murder.

Spoiler

tbh it seems that even hes not sure if it will destroy the world again. May be he prefer to think that it will , so he dont have his hope everything will be right this time . Sandal prophecy dont talk about destruction . And i dont think what creating the veil was mass genocide yes some die , but if we judge him for that then we have to judge our chars too, ALL of them , or you gonna tell me non of your chars in the game didnt kill innocents caught in the middle. Mine did , they did it to save the world , but its still murder . Solas did the same. he DIDNT kill the elves, the veil cause them too loose their immortality but they still lives and exist. And we cant know for sure if it didnt happen slow, generation after generation. The problem is that he sees it as a mass genocide , and i think thats what we have to save him from.  

[Abelis]

I feel the need to reiterate the point that

 

Spoiler

He says the world will die, he doesn't say "everybody"/"people", and then goes and says "if they must die" regarding helping against the Qunari, as well as "restore the world of my time", also with this

 

 

And the fact Sandal was in the Shattered Library, "everyone will be just like they were".

 

I really like to think that bringing down the veil will have a side effect of "killing the world" and it won't be a direct affect, more like killing the world as we know it.

The world of his time died, many people died because of what he did, but it seems it is mainly true for those who were at the crossroads at the time, the death of his world means the death of his culture, knowledge, the ability to will and shape things.

 

So perhaps what he means that bringing down the veil will change everyone and not all could grow accustomed to it, just like people at the crossroads who just (I assume) starved to death after the path crumbled, maybe some will turn like Pharamond, unable to control their feelings, some will lose control over their own magic, who knows what will happen to all those who never practiced magic? Or those who did? Those who aren't willful enough? Those afraid of spirits and demons? These things alone could tear the world apart.

Plus, I don't think he only wants the elves to exist again, I think he wants to restore their vastness and greatness, so this would be follow by war? Driving away people from lands so they can take them for their own. That could be the reason he calls for all of the elves in Thedas.

 

When asked why the world has to die for the elves to return, he answers:

 

"A good question, but not one I will answer"

 

If the veil would just kill everyone wouldn't he just... tell? The Inquisitor already thinks what he wants to do is monstrous, telling them the truth, that the collapsing of the veil will kill those aren't accustomed to it wouldn't really make what he is about to do any or less worse in the eyes of the Inquisitor (because it seems what we are lead to think is that the collapsing itself will kill all anyhow). Maybe it is... so when it does collapse, the Inquisitor would not have an inkling of what to do, they wouldn't be prepared. Solas doesn't want them to be, because it would ruin his plans.

 

It could be that he plans use of time magic, but it seems like he didn't know time magic could exist, and if we chose to go with Champions of the Just instead of In Hushed Whispers it means he hasn't even been exposed to the idea. We already know he only lies by omission, he seems fascinated by the idea of time magic when we first meet Dorian and feels the need to ask the Inquisitor if they are certain it was time travel and not an illusion.

So while it could be valid, it lacks proof. I also kind of dislike the idea, because for some reason it just feels wrong erasing thousands of years of history. I remember how Leliana spoke in Redcliffe, it may have been a year for him in this world but the elves who were slaves its' been thousands, it was real to them, he just awoke to a nightmare, I pity him, really, but it's still very very wrong.

I also don't see the need of amassing so many elves if he will just travel back in time afterwards, why the effort? It will only draw more attention to him, I saw people speaking of blood magic but since practicing blood magic makes it harder to enter the Fade I'm not certain he would go on that route, I also kind of wonder if it affects entering the Raw Fade as well. He says he is no monster, he wants to ease the way for those now alive until the return of his people, I really can't imagine him sacrificing the blood of thousands of souls.

There is also that conversation with low disapproval you get with Solas in which he speaks of dropping the veil and shaping things casually as a way to help the elves, if I remember correctly?

 

Now, I'm really trying to figure out how so many of the ancient elves were left and how come they didn't all turn into non-eternal elves. What prevented them from becoming part of the Dalish? What made the rest of the elves lose their eternalness?

 

How the veil affected humans, they just appeared from the north, did they even exist before? If they indeed just existed in Par Vollen, maybe they used magic as well... To build all those pyramids...

A note on this:

Spoiler

I dont think Solas needs a ritual to enter the fade, he already had this power, he was just too weakened to use it, but now he has gained his power back. He even takes the anchor off quizzy which is actually a way to enter the fade. Cori on the other hand, had no other means of entering the Fade than a blood ritual. So Im guessing something other is at play

[Lunapur]

lol.

 

Spoiler

Ooh fade green. Gimme your hand vhenan.

 

No you can't have it it's mine.

 

Vhenan pls. ):

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Omg drake i was so sad cuz i was messing in Haven with armor from the dlc i was thinking if only we have gone with Solas will probably wear this

Spoiler

 next to him and i was thinking this will be so awesome together against the world and after that the sadness hit me bad till i saw your screenshots so thank you for that it made me laugh   

[Eurowande]

Forgot to add this on my previous post and im lazy to edit so :

Spoiler

Bioware put us on the path of make someone redeem or kill them from DA 1, Lohghein had his own reasons , he though what hes doing is right you can kill him or make him Warden, in DA 2 , they put us at even harder choice with Anders cuz this time they made him our friend ( sound familiar?) at the end the choice is yours , kill him or make him redeem , he will even fight the mages if you make him ( tho i always help the mages so no go for me) , This seems like a big theme in the games one they slowly introduced to us , so im positive we will be able to redeem and save Solas , not redeem him and he dies .

[Vorathrad]

Trespasser Flycam experiment with Solas romance: 

 

Spoiler

https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be

 

Spoiler

The sweet and gentle way he draws her near to him by holding her hand...     

 

 

Had to edit because it's actually one hand, she's hiding the other one xD 

 

Also wanted to add a late but heartfelt support to Calpernia as companion; she's a fascinating character for the little screen time and info about her, and dat fashion sense. 

 

Aaaaand also kudos to the person who some pages back posted a long post about the different songs of titans and elves, I loved it but I can't quote it because my head hurts from so much speedy reading to catch up with you     

 

I think Solas was himself with the Inquisition, ironically the time where he needed to hide most was when he could show himself as his original personality. I also believe in a non-logical and feels-driven way that we will be able to change his mind somehow.

 

*goes back to playing with army of tiny TO flags*

Modifié par Vorathrad, 13 septembre 2015 - 12:06 .

[CapricornSun]

Just finished 3 to 4 hours catching up to this thread.

 

Spoiler

All this talk about Solas getting a redemption through death is getting me depressed. I sincerely hope this doesn't happen though. He story is just too sad already.

 

I just want Solas to live happy for once...

 

 

Spoiler

The way they're holding hands is heartbreaking...

 

 

 

 

Do iiiit! You'll spend more time messing around with flycam than playing the game

 

Out of likes.

 

Spoiler

*sniff* I really, really love that he's holding her hand in this scene. Thank you for the flycam shot.

[Abelis]

Good morning dears.

 

I don't wish to upset anyone or cloud anyone with negativity who would prefer to keep to the optimistic line of thinking, so I'm prefacing this with this warning. Please feel free to skip over what's in the spoiler tags and disregard this post (Trespasser spoilers also), it won't make you feel warm or happy I'm afraid.

Spoiler

I want to save Solas, but considering the literary use of redemption through death, I think he's an ideal candidate. This is not Sten who murdered a family for a sword, or Thom Rainier who killed a noble and his family for gold. We're talking actions which impacted the very fabric and structure of reality, caused the instant deaths and entrapment of likely hundreds if not thousands of people (see the 'voices' of elves who were stuck and cried out in rage at the actions of Fen'Harel in the Shattered Library. the ancient empire spanned Thedas and likely had dozens of such places ['the marvels dependent on the Fade']. such a fate would have befallen more than the few voices we hear in the DLC) and then the subsequent deaths of thousands and thousands more (the elves falling to war and becoming carrion for Tevinter) and then the subjugation and extensive, intense suffering (including killings) of.. hundreds of thousands (??) of elves through the following Ages. Well-intended, yes, a mistake in many ways, yes, but still the reality of what he has done remains. These are actions on a literally genocidal scale, just like Mordin Solus. It's Anders multiplied by several orders of magnitude. If Solas' arc ends with his redemption through death, that isn't the writers copping out or using a tired technique imo, it's literally a fitting end for a man who brought about genocide and still intends to commit genocide going forward. Cool motive, still murder.

So here is an idea for a future plot lolz:

Spoiler

How about he really starts caring for this world, and is convinced that he is going to make the same mistake twice (Solas I will save you from yourself!yay). A mistake does not correct another mistake, is just two mistakes with unforeseen results. Very bad.
So, while Mythal still wants her revenge, something goes wrong and the rest of the 'gods' are freed, and then its them that want to bring down the veil to regain their old world and status, so we have on one side Solas (and possibly Mythal with him) on one side trying to prevent them and the other gods on the other. A war between the 'Elnhen gods' in Thedas! Add some titans in this and its mayhem. The fight for the eventual future of Thedas brought to a higher level!

[Eurowande]

btw i think the game hates me, i've been running around with Cole, Solas and Cass and no conversation btw them at all i was pissed ... and then i go to kill a dragon and just before it Cass go about the vallaslin removal , i was like really? REALLY whole game they didnt said a word and thats what gonna trigger. I go kill the dragon and BOOM the same conversation trigger again it made me so sad, but wait thats not the end of it... 5mins late it trigger that Cole break up conversation and then i was like ... ok now i know Bioware hates me....

[Delphine]

Spoiler

Cool motive, still murder.

 

I don't agree with your point of view, but I liked that reference very much. So thumbs up for it!

[Solas]

Spoiler

tbh it seems that even hes not sure if it will destroy the world again. May be he prefer to think that it will , so he dont have his hope everything will be right this time . Sandal prophecy dont talk about destruction . And i dont think what creating the veil was mass genocide yes some die , but if we judge him for that then we have to judge our chars too, ALL of them , or you gonna tell me non of your chars in the game didnt kill innocents caught in the middle. Mine did , they did it to save the world , but its still murder . Solas did the same. he DIDNT kill the elves, the veil cause them too loose their immortality but they still lives and exist. And we cant know for sure if it didnt happen slow, generation after generation. The problem is that he sees it as a mass genocide , and i think thats what we have to save him from.  

Bioware put us on the path of make someone redeem or kill them from DA 1, Lohghein had his own reasons , he though what hes doing is right you can kill him or make him Warden, in DA 2 , they put us at even harder choice with Anders cuz this time they made him our friend ( sound familiar?) at the end the choice is yours , kill him or make him redeem , he will even fight the mages if you make him ( tho i always help the mages so no go for me) , This seems like a big theme in the games one they slowly introduced to us , so im positive we will be able to redeem and save Solas , not redeem him and he dies .

Spoiler

He admits to not being 100% sure of what's going to happen, but he has a decent guess. He's been mistaken before, but he's also an intelligent man. And the last time he wasn't sure 100% what would happen.. look where that got him.

 

I think it's almost a given that the sudden removal of the Veil will cause countless deaths. Solas, when discussing the state of nature that there was before, describes it as beautiful. He also fully admits that it's dangerous. Is nature in general dangerous? Yes. Is the current state of the Veil dangerous in a different way? (Demon possession etc). Absolutely. But 95% of the modern peoples of Thedas are not adapted to, prepared for or equipped for a world without the Veil. The resulting chaos and death will be insanely high. And he will be the architect of this, for the sake of a long-dead people and scattered few. If Thedas is to return to a pre-Veil state, it has to be a slow, gradual change so as not to rocket the world through a bloody hellspiral. And plainly speaking, even if modern elves are saved in his plan, there's still blatantly no place for at least three other entire races (potentially more, because what of things like the Fex? The Executors? Are they other species, are they sentient?) in the new world. It's "the world of the elves". "Some will die" with the bringing down of the Veil is an understatement.

 

Sandal's prophecy doesn't directly talk about destruction but if you read between the lines and link it to other things said in the game: the skies will open wide, the magic will come back. It's an allusion to the Ardent Blossom voice: pull back the curtain, let the light in, let it burn. They both refer to Solas' plans. The burning is the massive destruction that will result among modern Thedosians from the removal of the Veil that I just described up there. ^ He did kill the elves, he destroyed everything they were.

 

Have my characters killed in pursuit of a greater goal and saving the world? Absolutely. The point I was making was that I personally don't see what Solas has done and intends to do as being on the same level of that kind of killing, like how I don't see it as on the same level of Thom, or Sten. Which of your characters caused or intends to cause genocidal-level destruction? Cause unless you count curbstomping the darkspawn, none of mine have.

 

With that in mind, I've also said that in his position my Inquisitor would do the same as him. She would. In that regard it's not about judging him. His motives and feelings are what make him a compelling character or antagonist. He's way better and cooler than Cornflakes who was just 'lol im evil mwahahah'. I'm not saying there shouldn't be an option to redeem him, that's not it at all. I think there should be, I hope there is and I've outright stated that I want to save Solas. What I was discussing was how for me, I think for him redemption through death is not cheap or overused given the scale of his actions.

 

[midnight tea]

Spoiler

Okay, I just noticed something... the Vir Dirthara - Shattered Library - the place that likely is somehow connected to Dirthamen is full of statue of ravens: the same ravens that are apparently the symbol of Free Marches! (we get them in Free Marches decor for Skyhold)

 

What does that mean? Were Free Marches the domain of Dirthamen once? Is it why weird stuff happens around Kirkwall?
 

Anyway - anyone else noticed that in the letter from Varric in Trespasser, he mentions that "weird glowing fade rocks" appeared together with rifts in Kirkwall's harbor?

[Abelis]

Spoiler

Yea when I flycammed I saw Solas takin Lavellan's hand with both hands and then putting the other one on her cheek... it was so sweet, these are from my vids... so the quality is not as good since youtube wants to f*ck it up a little.. sorry about cursing  

Spoiler

 

 

I love the scene!
image from http://mezilandre.tu...st/128881240770

[Ajna]

I agree with all this. Calpernia (along with Scout Harding) top my list of favourite possible companions for DA4. 

 

Spoiler

And yeah to your second point as well - I'm all for death being an option, but please, please not the only one. It's partly because I also find the 'death = redemption' thing to be a bit overused if not pitched very, very well (although I do trust that PW would do it pretty well, he is such a good writer), and partly because I just really, really want the possibility of something on the sweeter side of bittersweet - but also because enforced death would mean Lavellan being essentially left by Solas for a third time. Speaking personally, that runs the risk of being less tragic and more, well, aggravating.

 

Assuming the Inquisitor does play some sort of role in DA4, any Lavellan who hasn't dumped Solas will have made a significant investment into the romance - as will the players playing her. At the risk of sounding a little 'entitled' (which I guess I'm about to do, sorry) and being kind of meta-gamey - I can't help but feel that some sort of payoff would be nice, given all that commitment, and a payoff beyond 'Solas dies, Lavellan grieves but eventually moves on'. Honestly, if death has to be a thing, then I would at least like there to be an option where Solas can become/return to being a spirit, and Lavellan can do the same thing ('rare and marvellous spirit, after all) and they both kind of head off together that way. Death but not, kind of thing.

 

Question for people who've read Masked Empire (sorry, my lore is patchy):

 

Spoiler

When Felassan is killed (in the Fade, right?), does that definitely mean his body is dead too? We can kill Feynriel in the Fade in DA2 and make him tranquil, presumably because he's a Dreamer? Is it confirmed that Felassan is not also a Dreamer? Just wondering, because Felassan would make another amazing companion in DA4 and a really good 'weapon' against Solas whether on the 'save' or 'stop' path. We know that the Seekers know how to reverse the rite of Tranquility (I'm presuming that research has continued into that). So if his body isn't dead, we could .. find him and .. untranquilise ... him, and then Best Elf could be in our party too *puts hopeful hat on*. Calpernia and Scout Harding and Felassan = best cast ever except for no Dorian.

 

Spoiler

I love you, Rosie, but you know that. Agree with you 100%. At the end of it all who will be the ones who would feel satisfied? The people who hate him, they would be laughing, they get everything they want, that would feel so damn wrong to me. I couldn't bear a Solas dies and leaves Lavellan alone AGAIN ending, it wouldn't make me sad, it would disappoint me and leave me painfully unsatisfied.

[Avejajed]

Guys, I just had an idea for an Inquisition AU.

Thedas is an old, giant apartment complex that used to be several different hotels. So to the north is the Tevinter building, the south has the Ferelden and Orlais buildings (which were built so close together that at one point a bunch of Orlesians bought out the Ferelden rooms and sublet them to the residents at ludicrously marked-up rent). The whole place is run by the Chantry Homeowner's Board until the head of the board is accidentally killed at this meeting between the maintenance workers and the security team. (They're both on strike after the previous head of security was fired for tampering with maintenance records, always making them look bad so Security would get bonuses and Maintenance wouldn't.)

And after the head of the Chantry Board falls through this breach in the floor into the sub-basement, this quiet bald janitor shows up. No one knows where he came from or how long he's been there, and who the hell hired him anyway? But he's certainly useful and seems to know a lot about the previous owners of Thedas Apartments...

Would anyone be interested in actually reading more of this? Or have the feels driven me crazy?

This is the best thing I have ever read.

[Solas]

So here is an idea for a future plot lolz:

Spoiler

How about he really starts caring for this world, and is convinced that he is going to make the same mistake twice (Solas I will save you from yourself!yay). A mistake does not correct another mistake, is just two mistakes with unforeseen results. Very bad.
So, while Mythal still wants her revenge, something goes wrong and the rest of the 'gods' are freed, and then its them that want to bring down the veil to regain their old world and status, so we have on one side Solas (and possibly Mythal with him) on one side trying to prevent them and the other gods on the other. A war between the 'Elnhen gods' in Thedas! Add some titans in this and its mayhem. The fight for the eventual future of Thedas brought to a higher level!

Spoiler

I want to save Solas, if I can I will (so long as it doesn't involve me having my Inquisitor act out of character). I want to make him see that what's gone is gone and it's time to build something new and meaningful moving forward, and that there is value in this world and that the modern elves are awesome in their own way.

 

If Solas were to fight against unleashed Evanuris, I'd absolutely join him. The Evanuris are terrible bad news. Then it is a question of what comes after for him. And also a scenario of where he's the one that likely let them free.

[Delphine]

Spoiler

A tumblr post urging people to stop using the word "genocide" while talking about Solas' plans.

A post that I tend to agree with.

 

"This is an offhand rant, a stream-of-consciousness blurb.

 

I’ve been on reddit and Tumblr a lot for the past few days post-Trespasser. Dealing with my post-Trespasser feelings have been amazing. The communities on both websites are great.

 

But obviously, reddit contains some more anti-Solas players, which I’m fine with. You’re supposed to feel that way about Solas. We’re supposed to be split. Some of us love him, some of us hate him. The writers threw in all kind of ambiguity in the game on purpose. They threw in choices so that the community WOULD be split, because whatever they have planned for Solas in DA4, whether we recruit him or chase him or kill him or redeem him, it’ll be worth it. I trust Bioware with their plot twists and surprises and the way they lead us through the plot in ways we expected but we’re given something completely different, something awesome.

But to all those who hate Solas and definitively say he is evil, he is the villain, etc. etc., I implore you: stop using the term “genocide”.

You are allowed to believe what you believe. You had your playthrough, I had mine, that person had theirs. We all had different experiences of playing the game because that’s Bioware’s premise. And it’s fine. It’s okay that you think him a hateful villain with completely evil intentions. That’s all up for the debate Bioware wanted us to have.

 

However, the term “genocide” has extremely heavy implications, one that us as fans should not be tossing around lightly.

I’ve heard the debate for using the term “genocide”. That word, like using the word rape casually, carries heavy implications because it’s so strongly associated with real-life events of the Holocaust, the Rwanda genocide, etc. 

 

Solas is a fictional character. He was once part of a world where magic was everywhere and things were awesome. Great. Then **** goes down and Solas puts up the Veil. He sleeps for like, a thousand years. He wakes up, finds that everything went awry, and oh damn - he made a huge mistake. Everything’s gone to ****. In his blink of an eye, the world was once perfect and now it’s not (according to him). So I have to revert it back to the way it was, meaning this world will be destroyed.

Have we forgotten what we did at Redcliffe when we were transported into the future? The world went to ****. And yet we decided this world was awful, and we went back to the past to revert it. We did the same thing Solas wants to do, and you can argue it all you want that the future was bad, evil, etc., but just as we can claim Solas is a villain or not, the writers have placed us in the same situation. We can argue for both whether they are similar or not, but this is definitely a technique the writers employed. It’s too subtle and brilliant for it not to be.

 

As one user fervently wrote in my reddit post, “That line of reasoning makes no sense. Why have a judicial system at all if having good intentions absolve you from committing an established evil and destructive act? Intent matters, yes, but not nearly enough to offset mass murder and planetary - scale destruction.Horrible people never consider themselves evil, by his perspective he’s in the right. This is not a grey area, he is evil.”

Everything about Solas is a grey area. The writers chose to give Cole, the spirit of Compassion, dialogue defending Solas (i.e. ”He’s not that kind of wolf”, “You weren’t wrong, though”, etc.). Because Solas’s abhorrent plan is mixed up with good intentions, this is definitely a grey area. (And if YOU guys didn’t know, intent can very much absolve you in a judicial system. Proving intent and motive in court can be the decisive factor in a sentence, in case you didn’t know.)

The ends do not justify the means. Solas’s intentions are not evil, but his means are. Yes, that makes his deeds one of a villain. He is a complicated villain. As Varric said, the coolest villains are the ones that don’t know they’re the villains. Solas doesn’t see him as one. That doesn’t mean he’s not, and that’s fine. But the writers have deliberately put too much room for doubt in Solas’s character for there to be no possibility of redeeming him, or stopping him. I have a feeling some kind of major choice will be given to us regarding Solas, and that’s what this ambiguity will lead up to.

 

But throwing around the word genocide as if Solas is chasing a fucked-up ideology where he commits mass murder on the idea that the world should be cleansed of an ethnic race is demeaning to the actual real-life events where it actually happened for this reason. Solas is a fictional character. The writers could not have made it any less clear that he’s a selfish character who wants to undo his mistakes. This makes him a child. He’s selfish, yes, he’s arrogant, he’s deluded about his goals, but the writers have thrown enough in there that makes us believe we’ll be given the choice to make him see what he’s planning is pure idiocy.

 

Ethnic cleansing is not his end. He does not see the current population as inferior and thus the world must be rid of it. He sees the current population in the state that it is because HE himself inflicted it. Actual figures who have committed genocide had one ideology and one ideology only: they believe in a master race. You as the Inquisitor can play as an elf, a human, a dwarf, or a Quanari. Being friends with Solas, he makes it clear that this is not his ideology. 

 

Hell, does Solas even have an ideology? He’s just a self-deluded, arrogant ignoramus who wants to fix his mistakes. The way the writers presented him, I don’t think Solas even cares that much to bring glory back to his people. Solas is a guilt-ridden character. All he cares about is himself and fixing his mistake so he doesn’t feel so guilty about the world being fucked up now, in his eyes. The way to redeem him is to take away his guilt, and the way to do that is to show him that the world right now isn’t the horrible consequence of his actions that Solas sees it as.

 

And no, I’m not dismissing the fact that mass murder accounts into Solas’s plans. Of course he’s going to be a mass murderer if he goes through with his plans. He’s willing to be that bad guy to bring back what he thinks is the greater good. Solas is not Corypheus, he is not Voldemort. Not yet. He will be, if we let him. But so far as we know, Solas doesn’t want that choice to be the only one and he wants the Inquisitor to convince him otherwise.

 

I can hardly believe that many who are anti-Solas are more forgiving of Blackwall who actually committed murder for money.

 

This makes Solas a complicated character. This makes him an ambiguous character. This does not make him a person who will commit genocide. Those who stand by this word really need to get their real-life history in check and do some research into what genocides actually mean for us, the implications they have in political climates, how they’re written in various cultures, etc. While I see Solas as a anti-hero, a tragic hero, others see him as a villain and that’s fine - either way, he will make a fascinating character for all of us in DA4. But we need to stop throwing around the word genocide."

Source: http://ladyarlathan....op-calling-what

[Avejajed]

Good morning dears.

I don't wish to upset anyone or cloud anyone with negativity who would prefer to keep to the optimistic line of thinking, so I'm prefacing this with this warning. Please feel free to skip over what's in the spoiler tags and disregard this post (Trespasser spoilers also), it won't make you feel warm or happy I'm afraid.

Spoiler

I want to save Solas, but considering the literary use of redemption through death, I think he's an ideal candidate. This is not Sten who murdered a family for a sword, or Thom Rainier who killed a noble and his family for gold. We're talking actions which impacted the very fabric and structure of reality, caused the instant deaths and entrapment of likely hundreds if not thousands of people (see the 'voices' of elves who were stuck and cried out in rage at the actions of Fen'Harel in the Shattered Library. the ancient empire spanned Thedas and likely had dozens of such places ['the marvels dependent on the Fade']. such a fate would have befallen more than the few voices we hear in the DLC) and then the subsequent deaths of thousands and thousands more (the elves falling to war and becoming carrion for Tevinter) and then the subjugation and extensive, intense suffering (including killings) of.. hundreds of thousands (??) of elves through the following Ages. Well-intended, yes, a mistake in many ways, yes, but still the reality of what he has done remains. These are actions on a literally genocidal scale, just like Mordin Solus. It's Anders multiplied by several orders of magnitude. If Solas' arc ends with his redemption through death, that isn't the writers copping out or using a tired technique imo, it's literally a fitting end for a man who brought about genocide and still intends to commit genocide going forward. Cool motive, still murder.

I'm actually really on board with this. Sad, but fitting and I think an appropriate resolution.

[midnight tea]

Good morning dears.

 

I don't wish to upset anyone or cloud anyone with negativity who would prefer to keep to the optimistic line of thinking, so I'm prefacing this with this warning. Please feel free to skip over what's in the spoiler tags and disregard this post (Trespasser spoilers also), it won't make you feel warm or happy I'm afraid.

Spoiler

I want to save Solas, but considering the literary use of redemption through death, I think he's an ideal candidate. This is not Sten who murdered a family for a sword, or Thom Rainier who killed a noble and his family for gold. We're talking actions which impacted the very fabric and structure of reality, caused the instant deaths and entrapment of likely hundreds if not thousands of people (see the 'voices' of elves who were stuck and cried out in rage at the actions of Fen'Harel in the Shattered Library. the ancient empire spanned Thedas and likely had dozens of such places ['the marvels dependent on the Fade']. such a fate would have befallen more than the few voices we hear in the DLC) and then the subsequent deaths of thousands and thousands more (the elves falling to war and becoming carrion for Tevinter) and then the subjugation and extensive, intense suffering (including killings) of.. hundreds of thousands (??) of elves through the following Ages. Well-intended, yes, a mistake in many ways, yes, but still the reality of what he has done remains. These are actions on a literally genocidal scale, just like Mordin Solus. It's Anders multiplied by several orders of magnitude. If Solas' arc ends with his redemption through death, that isn't the writers copping out or using a tired technique imo, it's literally a fitting end for a man who brought about genocide and still intends to commit genocide going forward. Cool motive, still murder.

 

Spoiler

More likely a very hard choice. Think about it - if you had to choose between destroying civilization and killing thousands of people AND facing an utter destruction of EVERYTHING, with everybody dead and no chance of survival.... what would you choose?

 

There are, sadly, times where there's no good vs. bad option. There's bad and slightly less bad - and people who decide to take the burden of making that choice. If Solas' actions actually gave the world a chance of survival, even for the price of elvhen civilization, then I don't think "cool motive, still murder" really applies, even if it still means consequences.

[Eurowande]

Spoiler

He admits to not being 100% sure of what's going to happen, but he has a decent guess. He's been mistaken before, but he's also an intelligent man. And the last time he wasn't sure 100% what would happen.. look where that got him.

 

I think it's almost a given that the sudden removal of the Veil will cause countless deaths. Solas, when discussing the state of nature that there was before, describes it as beautiful. He also fully admits that it's dangerous. Is nature in general dangerous? Yes. Is the current state of the Veil dangerous in a different way? (Demon possession etc). Absolutely. But 95% of the modern peoples of Thedas are not adapted to, prepared for or equipped for a world without the Veil. The resulting chaos and death will be insanely high. And he will be the architect of this, for the sake of a long-dead people and scattered few. If Thedas is to return to a pre-Veil state, it has to be a slow, gradual change so as not to rocket the world through a bloody hellspiral. And plainly speaking, even if modern elves are saved in his plan, there's still blatantly no place for at least three other entire races (potentially more, because what of things like the Fex? The Executors? Are they other species, are they sentient?) in the new world. It's "the world of the elves". "Some will die" with the bringing down of the Veil is an understatement.

 

Sandal's prophecy doesn't directly talk about destruction but if you read between the lines and link it to other things said in the game: the skies will open wide, the magic will come back. It's an allusion to the Ardent Blossom voice: pull back the curtain, let the light in, let it burn. They both refer to Solas' plans. The burning is the massive destruction that will result among modern Thedosians from the removal of the Veil that I just described up there. ^ He did kill the elves, he destroyed everything they were.

 

Have my characters killed in pursuit of a greater goal and saving the world? Absolutely. The point I was making was that I personally don't see what Solas has done and intends to do as being on the same level of that kind of killing, like how I don't see it as on the same level of Thom, or Sten. Which of your characters caused or intends to cause genocidal-level destruction? Cause unless you count curbstomping the darkspawn, none of mine have.

 

With that in mind, I've also said that in his position my Inquisitor would do the same as him. She would. In that regard it's not about judging him. His motives and feelings are what make him a compelling character or antagonist. He's way better and cooler than Cornflakes who was just 'lol im evil mwahahah'. I'm not saying there shouldn't be an option to redeem him, that's not it at all. I think there should be, I hope there is and I've outright stated that I want to save Solas. What I was discussing was how for me, I think for him redemption through death is not cheap or overused given the scale of his actions.

 

Spoiler

i dont agree with all you said, but i dont disagree with all either. I just think that given the fact that so far Bioware left the choice if someone gonna die or not in our hands, it wont be fair to took this choice from us now.

[Avejajed]

Sometimes all that's left are terrible decisions.

[Oswin]

Trying to catch up on this thread but my phone has thrown a tantrum and won't deal with spoiler tags. This thread doesn't make for good reading in that case

I'll have to wait until I'm home and on laptop. But I just wanted to pop in and make a confession.

This probably says worrying things about my personality, but after Trespasser: Solas is back to being my favourite romance.

Spoiler

It definitely helps that Adoribull gets a better ending than Dorian/inquisitor. Because that made me fume a little bit.

But as someone that loves a bit of doom and drama, Solas really brings the fun.
I say I want happy endings but if I could really deal with those than I wouldn't find Cullen's romance so uncomfortable. And I just love that my inquisitor has something to occupy their time with. I hate the idea of them just settling down and living the family life. There's a world out there that needs fixing and quizzy has the determination to do it, and prove to Solas their world is worth saving.

I'm also super thankful to the Solas redemption plot for helping me deal with the disappointment of the Dorian romance. As a firm believer in the age old proverb 'bros before hos' - I like to believe that my male Lavellan wouldn't want to be snuggled up to his lover somewhere. Not when his dear friend needs him. So I weirdly take comfort from this crazy situation.

Oh, and that armour goes a long way into improving my love. You had a cheek to criticize Dorian, Solas. But I do love a finely dressed gentleman. Even with FACE KNEES.

So yeah. While many outside are mocking Solas lovers for this plot line. I am the weird one who is thankful for it, and LOVING it.

And you guys make it so much more fun as well. Even when discussing worst case scenarios

And that's enough gushing for now. Apologies for my sucky phone typing. I will do a proper thread catch up when I'm not currently accompanying my father to a Steam Train museum I'm so cool it hurts..

[Solas]

Spoiler

More likely a very hard choice. Think about it - if you had to choose between destroying civilization and killing thousands of people AND facing an utter destruction of EVERYTHING, with everybody dead and no chance of survival.... what would you choose?

 

There are, sadly, times where there's no good vs. bad option. There's bad and slightly less bad - and people who decide to take the burden of making that choice. If Solas' actions actually gave the world a chance of survival, even for the price of elvhen civilization, then I don't think "cool motive, still murder" really applies, even if it still means consequences.

Spoiler

I discuss this very thing here! I see why he's doing what he's doing. But my characters and their people exist on this side of the equation.

 

More to the point, Solas' choice is his world or this one. We don't know this one is facing utter destruction of everything with everybody dead and no chance of survival. Modern Thedas is a bit of a crapheap but like Viscount Varric in Kirkwall, it's a shitpile, but it's theirs, and it's home. Solas is misguidedly taking such a burden of choice upon himself for no good reason (to modern Thedas. Very good reason to him), until we receive lore information like 'soon all of modern Thedas will be unstoppably swallowed by Blight.' Until then he's unconsciously self-engineering this burden of choice out of guilt at what he did.