153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Arcanista]

Hmmm

 

Spoiler

Why are people certain Veil is insta-kill? Solas said that one the Veil would've been removed with foci (using the anchor) Thedas would've "burned in chaos" while he restores the elvens. I think it's not literal "burn", it's just that there will be chaos because people will change and things will change.

Is there something I missed that suggests otherwise?

 

Spoiler

I don't think it's insta-kill. However, I also think the Tranquil cure being in Inquisition is not a red herring. Apparently de-Tranquilling mages specifically drives them absolutely, completely crazy. I think extrapolating this to the Veil... well, it would well fit with the amount of apocalyptic chaos Solas talks about.

[NeverlandHunter]

My Lavellan suspected something was off with Solas, but she didn't want to know. She just hoped it wouldn't be that bad and waited for him to trust her. They had a few arguments, though. After Winter Palace, because of 'my people' talk and after Adamant, because well, I prefer Grey Wardens leashed than somewhere out there plotting gods-know-what. Ahem. Back, to the topic. She knew her love blinds her, especially after Temple of Mythal and breakup, but she chose to let that happen.

Even though she suspected Solas was hiding something, she trusted him more than anyone. I think the only other person she trusted was Leliana. Hardened Leliana, because my girl was certainly very pragmatic. She almost let Bull kill the Charges, but her hate for the qun saved them, thankfully.

Spoiler

So she can't really blame Solas for doing what he's doing. He sees no other choice, so he does what he thinks is necessary to achieve his goal (a noble one I might add). She did kill and would kill to achieve her goals as well. But there are things she wouldn't do. Like killing Solas. Or mass genocide (like, killing just everyone in modern Thedas). If she believed it would help the Elves, she would start a war with Tevinter/ Orlais or any other nation.  But killing everyone? No. And she can't let Solas do that, because it would destroy him, and al the good he has still  left. After all, he doesn't approve of killing people and being cruel. I think that sometimes my Lavellan was feling guilty about her way of dealing with problems (stabbing everyone and all that stuff) and it was Solas who was making her a better person, ironically. And that's why she needs to convince him to change his plans, he needs to be this good person, she fell in love with.

About the questions:

 I have no idea why destroying the Veil  is an insta-kill button. I don't understand why this has to work that way. It could cause some disasters, a lot of deaths, people would feel lost and they would have to adapt. But it would also bring some good I think. But I may be just ignorant. Solas should know everything about the Veil, after all he created it, but I want to think that he does not in fact know everything, and is wrong here.  Maybe Mythal knows more? Maybe she's testing Solas to see how far he would go to save Elven People? Mythal is known to do things like that, after all. Although 'You know not what you ask, child' line doesn't make me very hopeful.

I wonder what were dwarves like before the Veil, but it brings me a headache. Again, no idea. Humans? Where were they before? This is strange, it's like they never existed before. Hmm... I think they lived on another continent, or maybe they were another experiment of mad scientist Ghilan'ain.

 

 

Another thought about the Veil: i'ts brought up multiple times, that there are more mages born than ever.  Fo many years, no somniari was born and yet we have Feynriel in Kirkwall. Something is happening to the Veil already. It might be going down gradually, but Solas would know about it for sure. The magic seems to be coming back anyway. The dragons are awakening, there are more of them than before. What's going on with Thedas, really?

I was thinking

"Your Lavellan is just like mine!"

*reads the part about Leliana and The Chargers*

Never mind

 

Spoiler

Interesting idea about Mythal testing Solas, although I find the humans being created by Ghilan'nain less likely, but who knows?

 

Stupid spoiler tags messing up, so are we done with these? I don't want to stop using them if it will bother some people.

Modifié par NeverlandHunter, 18 septembre 2015 - 12:34 .

[electricfish]

Suuuper late, but in regards to the Veil affecting humans Neverland: I don't know if I can actually say how they were affected pre-Veil versus post-Veil.  Here's a history lesson that might give some perspective though.

I know from the World of Thedas books that the first known human mages came from the ancient Neromenian tribes. The very first was actually a Dreamer and was supposedly taught magic and blood magic from Dumat while communing with him in the Fade. Only in the Fade, mind you, Dumat was never seen physically. That first Dreamer quickly became a power shaman/leader of his tribe because of his magic abilities, and heavily influenced the change in their belief system while other human mages were suddenly popping up. The Neromenians believed that mighty heroes and noteworthy people were reincarnated and often took the form of dragons, which made it pretty easy for them to justify turning to worship of Dumat and friends.

 

This is still when humans were across the sea and not in Thedas yet. Dumat features very heavily in influencing humans, and was the one pushing for them to come to Thedas, where they settled in the geographical location of the Imperium today.  This is all we know "for sure" about the history of humans. It's possible there could have been mages before, but no Dreamers, or have both mages and Dreamers but no special spirits or Old Gods to influence them. It sounds like pre-Veil history is either lost or left with anyone still living across the sea.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I love Neil Gaiman

I think it matters

Spoiler

Now imagine you're an elf in Orlais. You've been told all your life that elves are meant to serve, that you'll amount to nothing. You don't know of any elves that doing anything but serve. And then news breaks that an elf from the Denerim alienage just saved the entirety of Fereldan, and that another one was made Bann. Now, not much changes for you for years, but then then you hear about stirrings from an elf close to her majesty. *An alienage is destroyed, but the college opens up to elves. And then the terrible Breach, people are dying, crying to the Maker for help and He sends it in the form of a Dalish elf. She saves Thedas, everyone is praising her name. Lavellan, the tattooed elf, sent by Andraste herself to save us all. What happens next, Divine Victoria calls for elves to be allowed in the Chantry and Shartan's chants are officially part of The Chant of Light. How can that not inspire hope. The Denerim alienage had a little boy and girl who couldn't think of an elven hero and now look. There is so much hope and inspiration for the down trodden elves. They know they can be more and things can change.
*I have not read any of these books and am just going off of what I heard

Read Masked Empire. The Halamshiral sections should give you some idea of what life is like for Orlesian elves.

I am not saying that quizzy can't inspire hope and change. She's an extraordinary person, and my Lavellan is one of my favorite PCs.

I'm saying that she's not some magical panacea for Thedas. Going back to the original topic of enemy agents in the Inquisition: she is not immune to mistakes and betrayal. She is just as capable of inspiring fear as hope. Remember that Andraste was betrayed too, and she was the setting's original messiah.

What I like about DA is its richness of perspective. For every Vivienne, an Anders. For each one of them, a Rhys or Evangeline. The same applies to the elves. For every elf who follows quizzy, there are others who choose the Qun, or Fen'Harel.

[drosophila]

Spoiler

I do think he's planning some sort of insta-kill solution, because of the whole point he's making that he wants people to die in comfort. 

 

I'm also highly suspicious of whether his plan at this point is to actually remove the veil. Someone pointed out a few days ago that he says that removing the veil is what he *would've* done if he had taken the orb from Cory. 

 

But it's very possible that without the Orb, he has some plan B. I suspect he might be trying to trick Inky by being compeltely honest about the original plan, thus diverting attention from the specifics of plan B.

 

As to what plan B might be: No clue, but I like the time magic theory. It fits with the idea that it will end the world but in a comfortable way. He'll also needs lots of power to carry out such a spell, hence he might resort to blood magic?

 

If a lot has been said for/against that in previous pages, I apologize, I took a break for a few days, but never really caught up, and now I'm just trying to keep up with the thread as it moves. 

[Cee]

Anyway - I think it's a matter of balance, as well as the need to show the world that we're all very diverse - not all 'artsy' people are irrational, feelsy types, just like not all scientists are drab, dispassionate and overly-analytical. I really dislike the categories quite a few people try and put us in.

 

I'm out of likes but this, definitely. I'm quite open about being sensitive and empathetic. Some people seem to think that means I'm not logical or rational. Nevermind the way people sometimes treat those of us with social science backgrounds (I actually worked on dual degrees in literature and sociology but was one course short for the second due to timing/offerings.)

 

People are multifaceted. Few don't have such different sides but most do.

 

 

He did say that Trespasser was his best work.  Somone should let kreebby know.

I wonder if it got back to kreebby yet. I'm still getting stray notifications from tweeting it out after you posted, especially after Mike Laidlaw picked it up. One of those was Epler saying it makes him VERY happy when people notice these details.

 

Feels. So very many feels. I'm so glad they did that.

[Jayla]

Hmmm

 

Spoiler

Why are people certain Veil is insta-kill? Solas said that one the Veil would've been removed with foci (using the anchor) Thedas would've "burned in chaos" while he restores the elvens. I think it's not literal "burn", it's just that there will be chaos because people will change and things will change.

Is there something I missed that suggests otherwise?

 

Also about Mythal

 

Spoiler

Every once in a while I see Flemythal coming up around here, I personally don't trust her.

After Trespasser I trust her even less (no matter the fact she is an AWESOME character), Solas said she was the best of them, but best of something does not guarantee "good", it's like going to vote in the elections and voting to the least corrupt politician.

• Her activities in the Deep Roads suggest things... about her, her statues are everywhere.
• She still binds people to her bidding for eternity (poor sentinels, as long as she lives they had to protect the well, they had no life).
• She still had slaves marked by her vallaslin.
• She still considered herself a god, worthy of worship.
• The codices that describe her judging sound ominous.
• In the elven writing speaking of the sinner she refused to protect someone who just took the form of dragon, even though he was urged by Ghilan'nai, she let him be judged by Elgar'nan, who, as will all know, passes harsh judgement.
• The verse below that speaks about how Mythal seemingly enslaved dwarves to mine lyrium.

 

 

 

I'll keep to spoilers until the thread title's updated.

 

Spoiler

Yes! This is why I really don't think Solas has come away from taking Mythal's power entirely unscathed. Flemythal wanted revenge against the evanuris that betrayed her, she knew Solas would come for her at the end (perhaps anticipating the orb being destroyed?) and I refuse to believe all she did to prepare was "pass her godhood onto Morrigan", whatever that means. Flemythal has been known to tweak things to her advantage, and he did a terrible thing to her to gain her power, who's to say she wouldn't do the same with Solas?

 

Apparantly the devs have marked Solas and Mythal's relationship as complicated. But whatever happened Solas clearly thought very highly of her, and his statues appear everywhere as though he's guarding her. It's possible that Mythal was the "nicest" of the evanuris, taking care of her people and perhaps even only marking them (if vallaslins have significance above simple owner tags) with their permission (with the whole a body is not taken unwillingly or whatever it is she says), but everything about her seems fishy.

 

I really wouldn't be surprised if Flemythal comes back in some form later on down the line, betrays Solas into perhaps releasing the evanuris so she can take her shot at them.

[NeverlandHunter]

Suuuper late, but in regards to the Veil affecting humans Neverland: I don't know if I can actually say how they were affected pre-Veil versus post-Veil.  Here's a history lesson that might give some perspective though.

I know from the World of Thedas books that the first known human mages came from the ancient Neromenian tribes. The very first was actually a Dreamer and was supposedly taught magic and blood magic from Dumat while communing with him in the Fade. Only in the Fade, mind you, Dumat was never seen physically. That first Dreamer quickly became a power shaman/leader of his tribe because of his magic abilities, and heavily influenced the change in their belief system while other human mages were suddenly popping up. The Neromenians believed that mighty heroes and noteworthy people were reincarnated and often took the form of dragons, which made it pretty easy for them to justify turning to worship of Dumat and friends.

 

This is still when humans were across the sea and not in Thedas yet. Dumat features very heavily in influencing humans, and was the one pushing for them to come to Thedas, where they settled in the geographical location of the Imperium today.  This is all we know "for sure" about the history of humans. It's possible there could have been mages before, but no Dreamers, or have both mages and Dreamers but no special spirits or Old Gods to influence them. It sounds like pre-Veil history is either lost or left with anyone still living across the sea.

That's awesome! I wonder how the Creators and the Old Gods connect *musing* Mythal went out of her way to save one, why? 

 

I wonder if what's his face from the DA2 alienage will make an appearance in DA4 being a dreamer and all...and conveniently being in Tevinter. The Keep asks about him too, right?

...

[Vlk3]

@ NeverlandHunter  your spoilers don't work

My Lavellan is not crazy murderer, she just thinks it's what is necessary. She very much likes Iron Bull and the Charges, but she was considering letting them die, because at the time she needed a strong alliance and she certainly was afraid of antagonizing the qunari. She cares about people, even if she almost never admits that. She's a really cool girl and she likes people around her, sometimes just this isn't enough to win against a deadly enemy and thus, she makes the hard decisions. As for hardened Leliana- I personally don't see her as that bad... maybe something is wrong with me, though.    Leli has a special place in my heart, becuase she seems to be the only person, who  tried to comfort Lavellan after Solas had dissappeared.

[Shari'El]

Spoiler

I don't think it's insta-kill. However, I also think the Tranquil cure being in Inquisition is not a red herring. Apparently de-Tranquilling mages specifically drives them absolutely, completely crazy. I think extrapolating this to the Veil... well, it would well fit with the amount of apocalyptic chaos Solas talks about.

 

Yes that was addressed in Asunder (de-Tranquillizingngngn)

[Avejajed]

Who broke the thread?!

[NeverlandHunter]

Read Masked Empire. The Halamshiral sections should give you some idea of what life is like for Orlesian elves.

I am not saying that quizzy can't inspire hope and change. She's an extraordinary person, and my Lavellan is one of my favorite PCs.

I'm saying that she's not some magical panacea for Thedas. Going back to the original topic of enemy agents in the Inquisition: she is not immune to mistakes and betrayal. She is just as capable of inspiring fear as hope. Remember that Andraste was betrayed too, and she was the setting's original messiah.

What I like about DA is its richness of perspective. For every Vivienne, an Anders. For each one of them, a Rhys or Evangeline. The same applies to the elves. For every elf who follows quizzy, there are others who choose the Qun, or Fen'Harel.

I'm not all stuck on just my Inquisitor, I think there are many many good changes that could be happening in Thedas for the elves right now. A lot more than there ever had been at one time before. I just think it's strange for seemingly so many elves to be taken up by Solas's idea of a better future. How does he sell it to them anyway? With the exception of the Dalish none of the elves are going to know who he is and he's the villain that trapped the Creators in Dalish lore, so how does he get them on his side. Most citizens fear and despise magic. Why do they see him as a better option.

[RedMagister]

I'll keep to spoilers until the thread title's updated.

 

Spoiler

Yes! This is why I really don't think Solas has come away from taking Mythal's power entirely unscathed. Flemythal wanted revenge against the evanuris that betrayed her, she knew Solas would come for her at the end (perhaps anticipating the orb being destroyed?) and I refuse to believe all she did to prepare was "pass her godhood onto Morrigan", whatever that means. Flemythal has been known to tweak things to her advantage, and he did a terrible thing to her to gain her power, who's to say she wouldn't do the same with Solas?

 

Apparantly the devs have marked Solas and Mythal's relationship as complicated. But whatever happened Solas clearly thought very highly of her, and his statues appear everywhere as though he's guarding her. It's possible that Mythal was the "nicest" of the evanuris, taking care of her people and perhaps even only marking them (if vallaslins have significance above simple owner tags) with their permission (with the whole a body is not taken unwillingly or whatever it is she says), but everything about her seems fishy.

 

I really wouldn't be surprised if Flemythal comes back in some form later on down the line, betrays Solas into perhaps releasing the evanuris so she can take her shot at them.

 

I'm pretty darn sure she intends to take a shot at them

[Cee]

Did you guys see this?

 

http://blog.bioware....iddle-of-truth/

 

A new story from Jo Berry about The Game. Because everyone loves Orlais, yes?

[electricfish]

That's awesome! I wonder how the Creators and the Old Gods connect *musing* Mythal went out of her way to save one, why? 

 

I wonder if what's his face from the DA2 alienage will make an appearance in DA4 being a dreamer and all...and conveniently being in Tevinter. The Keep asks about him too, right?

...

Yes! Very exciting stuff now that we can piece together even more things. I don't know if you've read Liz's analysis of Tyrdda Bright-Ax, but I think you would enjoy it. Most people believe that Tyrdda's lover was actually Mythal, and Liz has a theory that Thelm Gold-Handed is actually Dirthamen (or at least one of his agents). Tyrdda's story happens at least several hundred years before the Imperium is even thinking about entering the Black City. SHE was the first person who was trying to be convinced to go to the Black City, and who knows what would have happened if Mythal wasn't there to put the brakes on that plan. 

There's also her relationship with the dwarves that Mythal encouraged. The Avvar, or at least Tyrdda, were in a pretty interesting place for them to be fought over like that.

[Shari'El]

I'm going to be brave and leave out the spoiler tag. Let me know if you want it back on.

 

I do think he's planning some sort of insta-kill solution, because of the whole point he's making that he wants people to die in comfort. 

 

I'm also highly suspicious of whether his plan at this point is to actually remove the veil. Someone pointed out a few days ago that he says that removing the veil is what he *would've* done if he had taken the orb from Cory. 

 

But it's very possible that without the Orb, he has some plan B. I suspect he might be trying to trick Inky by being compeltely honest about the original plan, thus diverting attention from the specifics of plan B.

 

As to what plan B might be: No clue, but I like the time magic theory. It fits with the idea that it will end the world but in a comfortable way. He'll also needs lots of power to carry out such a spell, hence he might resort to blood magic?

 

If a lot has been said for/against that in previous pages, I apologize, I took a break for a few days, but never really caught up, and now I'm just trying to keep up with the thread as it moves. 

 

I pointed that, since he doesn't answer us on why the world has to die after he did answer us in regards to the orb.

Also, although he wants people to live in comfort until he does whatever he does, it doesn't mean everybody will die instantly, I'm not sure if it is possible to kill all Thedas in an instant. 

I'm pretty certain low-approval Solas & high-approval Solas have the same plan, even if low-approval Solas doesn't see the residents of Thedas as people.

[Cee]

 Weird.  The non-romanced version is perfectly fine.

Spoiler

He joins the Wardens and splits his time between Warden duties, and wandering the land doing random acts of good.  No death or anything, unless I'm being extremely dense.  Which is a possibility

 

That's what I got. I thought it was a sweet resolution.

 

Though someone else romanced him

Spoiler

 

and was upset at his disappearance and getting back his pin and griffon feathers.

 

 

[Jayla]

That's awesome! I wonder how the Creators and the Old Gods connect *musing* Mythal went out of her way to save one, why? 

 

I wonder if what's his face from the DA2 alienage will make an appearance in DA4 being a dreamer and all...and conveniently being in Tevinter. The Keep asks about him too, right?

...

 

Headcanon time; one of the first things my Lavellan does in Tevinter is research how to perform lucid dreaming in the hopes of regaining some form of the magic she used to wield, and she runs into whatshisname who's happy to show her the basics. She may have lost the mark but her body remembers how she used to do it, and I think perhaps she wants to get some of that back. I headcanoned it was pretty much painful to her on some minor level on a constant basis and only really stung after closing a rift and, especially, when it went haywire. She doesn't miss the pain, but she does - especially as a non-Mage - miss the magic, and the lucid dreaming, and she liked that shade of green.

 

Does anyone's Inquisitor miss the Anchor?

[Jaderail]

Oh no, no. I am sure he has genuine feelings for Lavellan, I never doubted that.

Spoiler

And I think it won't end up that bad (I'm an optimist after all, it seems). It's just a little sad, that at first he doesn't consider people to be...people. Yeah. I'll try to headcanon that at some point, feeling all bitter and betrayed, he decided to pretend  modern elves and everyone else are not real, but it's not what he truly thinks.

 

And I don't want him to sacrifice everything for the Inquisitor. She shouldn't be the only thing worth saving in this world. No, Solas needs to keep fighting, but he needs to find another way.

 

Agreed, I don't want to see him sacrifice everything for her, he shouldn't have to

 

Spoiler

and I don't want my Lavellan to be the only thing Solas hinges his decision on. I really just meant that if that's what it came down to, in the end, that if he decided NOT to destroy the veil and deal with the evanuris and instead left the world as it is, the Inquisitor would likely have been one of the few things that stopped him from doing it. You can tell throughout the game that he doesn't *want* to destroy this world, and even at the end of Trespasser says that if they must die, he'd rather they don't suffer. He does care, but he just cares more for his own people and more for fixing his colossal mistake. 

 

In a way, Solas kind of reminds me of Khan from Star Trek. Willing to sacrifice pretty much anything to save his people. The only thing I really can hope for is to help him find another way.

[Arcanista]

Yes that was addressed in Asunder (de-Tranquillizingngngn)

 

Yeah, I couldn't get through Asunder, tbh. But yeah, I think there's definitely a Very Significant reason for it being there, besides on its own merits (which are still very significant).

[Cee]

If Crestwood scene went differently:

 

Forget my mission! Forget my people! It's been 2k+ years, I'm getting laid tonight, the world be damned!

 

 

Well he never did answer that spirits question directly.

 

In my headcanon, they were sleeping together soon after arriving at Skyhold and the balcony scene. Well, actually, I wrote a fic that fade to black implied they went directly to it afterward (which I forgot about until just now). My Lavellan was already committed to it in Haven and flirted with no one else after a time there, so I think the timing made sense in her case.
 

[Shari'El]

Yeah, I couldn't get through Asunder, tbh. But yeah, I think there's definitely a Very Significant reason for it being there, besides on its own merits (which are still very significant).

 

Out of likes, so I'll just say I agree

[Arcanista]

That's what I got. I thought it was a sweet resolution.

 

Though someone else romanced him

Spoiler

 

and was upset at his disappearance and getting back his pin and griffon feathers.

 

 

 

Ok this is actually my main/canon romance and I've done some tweet-asking on the subject so here's what I know:

 

Spoiler

Ok so Wardenized Blackwall dies no matter what in a few years, you just get the pin and feather in a romance because you're the closest thing he has to family.

 

Now, I have Thoughts that this could be related to the Warden schism which apparently is still in its infancy by Trespasser, but when I asked Sheryl Chee about if it was just wrapping up the character or if there was a greater reason, she said something like 'everyone dies, wardens die sooner than others'. 

 

Which is kind of a dodge. So yeah. It could be natural warden-related causes. Or it could be something else.

 

Either way she's the relevant tweeter to be looking at for info about him

[NeverlandHunter]

I'll keep to spoilers until the thread title's updated.

 

Spoiler

Yes! This is why I really don't think Solas has come away from taking Mythal's power entirely unscathed. Flemythal wanted revenge against the evanuris that betrayed her, she knew Solas would come for her at the end (perhaps anticipating the orb being destroyed?) and I refuse to believe all she did to prepare was "pass her godhood onto Morrigan", whatever that means. Flemythal has been known to tweak things to her advantage, and he did a terrible thing to her to gain her power, who's to say she wouldn't do the same with Solas?

 

Apparantly the devs have marked Solas and Mythal's relationship as complicated. But whatever happened Solas clearly thought very highly of her, and his statues appear everywhere as though he's guarding her. It's possible that Mythal was the "nicest" of the evanuris, taking care of her people and perhaps even only marking them (if vallaslins have significance above simple owner tags) with their permission (with the whole a body is not taken unwillingly or whatever it is she says), but everything about her seems fishy.

 

I really wouldn't be surprised if Flemythal comes back in some form later on down the line, betrays Solas into perhaps releasing the evanuris so she can take her shot at them.

That would be so awesome! I hope you're right!

But question though, if Mythal gave Morrigan her godhood what did Solas take from her?

@ NeverlandHunter  your spoilers don't work

My Lavellan is not crazy murderer, she just thinks it's what is necessary. She very much likes Iron Bull and the Charges, but she was considering letting them die, because at the time she needed a strong alliance and she certainly was afraid of antagonizing the qunari. She cares about people, even if she almost never admits that. She's a really cool girl and she likes people around her, sometimes just this isn't enough to win against a deadly enemy and thus, she makes the hard decisions. As for hardened Leliana- I personally don't see her as that bad... maybe something is wrong with me, though.    Leli has a special place in my heart, becuase she seems to be the only person, who  tried to comfort Lavellan after Solas had dissappeared.

Uh huh *nods along*

 

...

 

I don't want to become disposable. 

[drosophila]

 

Well he never did answer that spirits question directly.

 

In my headcanon, they were sleeping together soon after arriving at Skyhold and the balcony scene. Well, actually, I wrote a fic that fade to black implied they went directly to it afterward (which I forgot about until just now). My Lavellan was already committed to it in Haven and flirted with no one else after a time there, so I think the timing made sense in her case.
 

 

Ahaha, good point about the spirits.

 

I actually haven't headcanoned when they slept together, they did it, and they did it often, and there was a three-way with Josephine at some point, but I haven't thought about specific timing.