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[Elessara]

Then the Avvar should be getting possessed left and right.  But they're clearly not.

 

I never said non-mages would experience the Fade as mages do.  But I don't think they're entirely helpless either, especially not after having borne the Anchor for years.

 

The Avvar also view spirits much differently than other people.  They don't fear spirits or hate them and so spirits are probably less likely to be twisted into demons by the Avvar.

 

However, completely lucid dreaming where you're absolutely aware in the Fade seems to be something special that only Dreamers do or you need magic.  Like in DAO with Redcliffe, Jowan can send the Warden conciously into the Fade with blood magic (and not just a little bit, but a lot) or a group of mages can do it.  In DA2, Feynriel can do it on his own b/c he's a Dreamer but the Keeper uses some kind of ritual to send Hawke and Co. in.  Mages don't even really seem to do it unless they're Dreamers.

 

However, I think with the Anchor affecting the Inquisitor for years, something may have fundamentally changed the Inq, even non mages.  They may still be able to consciously enter the Fade when they wish.  But that hasn't been established yet.  I just wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

[midnight tea]

To be fair, he did not say he was unconscious and that he only woke up once. He said:

 

"I lay in dark and dreaming sleep while countless wars and ages passed. I woke still weak a year before I joined you."

 

I interpret the "dreaming" part to mean that he was active in the Fade and could explore people's dreams and memories there - providing him with some connection to what's going on in the world, so he wasn't completely unconscious. 

 

Then, just because he woke up a year before DAI, doesn't mean he hadn't waken up before. We interpret that what weakened him is creating the veil, but he could've woken up once before, done something, gotten weak again, gone back to bed. 

 

Don't have an opinion about him being Shartan either wawy, but this is what his line means to me. 

 

EDIT: Oops, he did mention being "unconscious" for millenia, and that the Orb has been building up magical power during that time. But that's in contradiction with the dreaming part... Maybe part of the time he was unconsious and part he regained consciousness?

 

The fact that he used "unconscious" as well as "I lay in dark (and dreaming) sleep" implies that his sleep might have not been entirely controlled or voluntary.

 

And yes - his 'conscious' part was in the Fade, but his body/physical part was so drained (by creation of the Veil or sacrificing part of himself to not fall into a trap he's set for the Evanuris, I assume) I wouldn't be surprised that he was near death through all this time and it took him millenia to actually recover - and even then he said that he woke still weak.

 

Anyway - after I heard him say that, and re-reading what was written in one of Fen'Harel tales (one where he's captured by Andruil and that Andruil and Anaris fought, injured themselves and slumbered to heal themselves) I come to conclusion that uthenera may not be just a way for elves to perhaps prolong their life, but apparently to recover from injuries and some sort of vulnerable physical states.

[Patchwork]

I wonder what was the actual thing that made Solas say "Well, I better get up now and try to fix this mess.Not a single competent person born in 2000 years....figures. Want something done gotta do it yourself."

 

 

So he woke up to essentially tell the shemlen to get off his lawn? 

[Cee]

So he woke up to essentially tell the shemlen to get off his lawn? 

 

[NeverlandHunter]

 

Yeah, exactly. I guess what everybody is saying is that having the anchor previously would have given her experience in traveling the fade, so it would be easier later even after she didn't have the anchor anymore. 

 

What really bothers me is the difference between Solas's ability and Lavellan's ability, especially if Lavellan is not a mage and after she loses the anchor. Solas would have the complete advantage in that situation, and no matter how I think about it this scares me. Probably because I have power issues and have been sexually harassed and my best friend was raped, but I digress. I don't think Solas would ever do anything bad, but just the thought of him having more power in the fade than Lavellan and him seeking her out in that situation makes me extremely uncomfortable. 

I'm sorry about what's happened to you, but Solas is definitely more powerful than Lavellan in the Fade and the waking world now, and e was always more experienced. But I can say without a doubt that Solas would never do anything to make your Lavellan uncomfortable relationship wise. If you end it he isn't angry or pushy, just resolved, and maybe even a little relieved because it made things easier.

 

So here's what we've got in-game about non-mages and the Fade:

• Non-mages can enter the Fade and be lucid there (Warden in Broken Circle, Warden-Commander in Blackmarsh, Hawke in Feynriel's quest chain, quizzy in Here Lies the Abyss)
• Even dwarves can enter the Fade under extraordinary circumstances.  They don't appear disoriented, and they do remember what happened while they were there (Varric after Feynriel's quest if he betrays Hawke in the Fade)
• Among the Avvar, spirits can influence their warriors and rogues (The Trial of Hakkon) in the physical world
• Religious rites allow all Avvar, mage or not, to communicate with spirits (shown during the Up and Away sidequest)
• Templar recruits can be possessed, though it takes a tremendous amount of effort

Mages are not unique in having a connection to the Fade.  Mages have a strong, conscious connection whereas everyone else's connection is fuzzy.  But even among non-mages, the ability to navigate the Fade and its spirits varies with practice (for example, the difference between an Avvar who fights with the protection of spirits and a chevalier who does not).

Non-mages can enter lucidly, but from what I've seen, only in the same way dwarves can enter it all. With the help of lyrium, blood magic, or some other strong magical force.

 

I've had a few lucid dreams and didn't find it all that difficult to get into that state. No special diet either! I just focus on lucid dreaming before I go to sleep and slip into it. It doesn't always work and I haven't done it in awhile but it's not too hard.

I almost only ever lucid dream.

 

Then the Avvar should be getting possessed left and right.  But they're clearly not.

 

I never said non-mages would experience the Fade as mages do.  But I don't think they're entirely helpless either, especially not after having borne the Anchor for years.

Of course they're not, as you pointed out there are multiple points where you and others (including dwarves) can consciously/lucidly enter the Fade. My argument was just that I don't believe learning to lucid dream would be enough to enter it the same way mages do.

 

I've never been onboard Solas=Shartan theory any more than Mythal=Andraste, it's hanging too much on a handful of characters for my tastes so him sleeping until a year pre DAI works for me. Although I have to say he certainly didn't waste time going after Briala and Felassan.

 

I prefer Shartan to be a person rather than an amalgam because pcs aside eleven heroes in modern Thedas are rare. My City elf should have a few true stories to tell random Alienage kids.  

I prefer Shartan as a normal elf too. I want him to be a hero that rose up from his enslavement and was a beacon of hope, not because he was a powerful mage, not because he was an ancient elf.

[Elessara]

So he woke up to essentially tell the shemlen to get off his lawn? 

 

Well, now we know where Solas went wrong.  He forgot to put an onion on his belt.

[midnight tea]

However, I think with the Anchor affecting the Inquisitor for years, something may have fundamentally changed the Inq, even non mages.  They may still be able to consciously enter the Fade when they wish.  But that hasn't been established yet.  I just wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

 

Yep - I assume that aside from all the experience Inquisitor had with the Anchor and lessons/power they learned through it (what about, for example, resistances to elements we can acquire in Forbidden Oasis, that were apparently drawn to Quizzy because of the Anchor), even if the Mark is indeed gone for good, its effect on Quizzies hasn't ended. They're not back to how they were prior to acquiring it.

 

It may also be that while the Anchor itself is gone, its remnants, or all the ancient elvhen magic it channeled may remained lodged in Quizzy's body, affecting them somehow. 

[maia0407]

So, where is Solas' base of operations? I tend to think it's probably in a place that can only be reached by an eluvian, like the valley where the freed slaves went. I also think many of the freed ancient slaves went into uthenera with him after he raised the veil and are still with him. That might be what he means when he tells Abelas that his "people yet linger". I'm sure he feels responsible for the ancient elves still with him and that's part of the reason he's focused on restoring their world.

[AutumnOracle]

The canticle describes an elf that freed his people from slavery and THEN joined Andraste to go after Tevinter. Have we seen any other lore that indicates elven slaves outside of Tevinter during that time?

I think an algamation might be that the old stories of Solas freeing the elves from the Evanuris might have been attributed to the elf that joined Andraste. Or there is another section of history with immense elven slaves we haven't heard about yet. And those elven slaves wanted to go back to their masters after they had been freed because it was easier.

[Sah291]

So here's a question, that's confusing/bugging me. This has probably been discussed already... But, if Solas takes the anchor/mark away in the end, why does the "forever marked" achievement pop up? What does that mean? Did Solas not get all of the green magic goo out, or what? Did he just temporarily stop it from spreading?? Was this explained?

[MayriyaNoori]

So he woke up to essentially tell the shemlen to get off his lawn? 

lol, that's the funny version in my head.

 

But I really do wonder what poked his mind to think he should wake up.

 

Mostly because I have the feeling Solas may have not been entirely aware of what was happening in Thedas. He says something to the Inquisitor at one point "What if you woke up and everything is worse than what it was?!?!" And....I imagine by Solas standards everything was pretty terribad sooner than 2000 post-Veil.

 

Also....how depressing is it the thought that Sols didn't know what was going on and he was just chillaxing, dreaming in the Fade of the world he thought he made.

[maia0407]

So here's a question, that's confusing/bugging me. This has probably been discussed already... But, if Solas takes the anchor/mark away in the end, why does the "forever marked" achievement pop up? What does that mean? Did Solas not get all of the green magic goo out, or what? Did he just temporarily stop it from spreading?? Was this explained?

Even without the anchor, inky is marked by a missing arm and by how getting the anchor changed her life.

[NeverlandHunter]

So here's a question, that's confusing/bugging me. This has probably been discussed already... But, if Solas takes the anchor/mark away in the end, why does the "forever marked" achievement pop up? What does that mean? Did Solas not get all of the green magic goo out, or what? Did he just temporarily stop it from spreading?? Was this explained?

Uh, I think it's because your arm is gone...you know forever marked by these events.

 

Edit:  'd

[Solas]

So here's a question, that's confusing/bugging me. This has probably been discussed already... But, if Solas takes the anchor/mark away in the end, why does the "forever marked" achievement pop up? What does that mean? Did Solas not get all of the green magic goo out, or what? Did he just temporarily stop it from spreading?? Was this explained?

He's taken away the Anchor, but no mortal could bear it and live, so the Inquisitor only has a few more years left. It's like excising a tumor in one part of the body and buying time that way, but the cancer still metastasizes. She's free of the immediate threat (say a tumor pressing on her lung) but cancerous cells yet linger in her system and it'll come back again even worse than before. That's why she's forever marked.

^ not trying to offend anyone with the cancer metaphor, I'm talking from personal experience

[Sah291]

Even without the anchor, inky is marked by a missing arm and by how getting the anchor changed her life.

True, it could be metaphorical.

The idea of that has...unfortunate implications. Usually being described as having or being a "mark" is not a good thing.

[drosophila]

The fact that he used "unconscious" as well as "I lay in dark (and dreaming) sleep" implies that his sleep might have not been entirely controlled or voluntary.

 

And yes - his 'conscious' part was in the Fade, but his body/physical part was so drained (by creation of the Veil or sacrificing part of himself to not fall into a trap he's set for the Evanuris, I assume) I wouldn't be surprised that he was near death through all this time and it took him millenia to actually recover - and even then he said that he woke still weak.

 

Anyway - after I heard him say that, and re-reading what was written in one of Fen'Harel tales (one where he's captured by Andruil and that Andruil and Anaris fought, injured themselves and slumbered to heal themselves) I come to conclusion that uthenera may not be just a way for elves to perhaps prolong their life, but apparently to recover from injuries and some sort of vulnerable physical states.

 

Yeah, whatever he did weakened him immensely. Not so much physically, but it stripped him almost entirely of his magical power. Which, now that we know just how much he values magic and having a connection to the Fade, would be like giving up an arm and a leg to him. Or maybe like going from being able to reason and having discussions on this forum to only being capable of the most basic reading and writing. Those four years must've been incredibly difficult for him, being incapacitated like this. Kudos, Solas, for handling it so calmly.

 

Also, just now I realize just how painful seeing his power in quizzy's hands and seeing his Orb break must've been to him. I don't even know exactly what I can compare it to. It's like having lost your arm and leg but then you see somebody else having them and walking around in them, whereas you're struggling without them. (That actually happens in Fullmetal Alchemist... FMA makes everything more clear to me, once again )

[maia0407]

lol, that's the funny version in my head.
 
But I really do wonder what poked his mind to think he should wake up.
 
Mostly because I have the feeling Solas may have not been entirely aware of what was happening in Thedas. He says something to the Inquisitor at one point "What if you woke up and everything is worse than what it was?!?!" And....I imagine by Solas standards everything was pretty terribad sooner than 2000 post-Veil.
 
Also....how depressing is it the thought that Sols didn't know what was going on and he was just chillaxing, dreaming in the Fade of the world he thought he made.

I wonder why he woke up when he did as well. I think he may have saw or sensed something while in the fade that let him know something bad was going to happen if he doesn't bring down the veil. This might be why he seems so urgent in his plans and why he says, "sometimes you are only left with bad choices" or something to that effect. Preventing whatever catastrophe awaits could be why he was reckless enough to give his orb to Cory. He says that time is short and he needed power now!

[midnight tea]

So here's a question, that's confusing/bugging me. This has probably been discussed already... But, if Solas takes the anchor/mark away in the end, why does the "forever marked" achievement pop up? What does that mean? 

 

I suppose it can mean a lot of things. The most straightforward is probably that Inky is "forever marked" with a loss of limb...  Not the most optimistic interpretation, but also not one that makes no sense, all things considered.

 

The other is that whatever Inky does now, he/she has made a difference and shall forever remain a legend - not sure I buy that interpretation though, considering that at the end of Trespsser instead of sending Inky on retirement, Bioware gives them a new frikking arc.

 

The other possible explanation is that Inky's story is not over in a sense that it never ends... That by acquiring the Mark they've found themselves on a route that will immortalize them... Perhaps even literally?

 

Really, I can't say how much out of whack the last interpretation is. Though I have to admit that I've been wondering if Solas isn't perhaps grooming a successor, in a same way Flemeth does Morrigan. The quest to get Ardent Blossom after all states that whatever world Solas desires to create, "his chosen" will reign it.

 

Its' a problematic assumption given that not all Inquisitors impress him AND it's made rather clear that Inky may not survive the world's transition (unless it will not be the literal "death", but maybe perhaps the loss of past identity - just like what I think will happen to Solas, but his transition will be a dark and tormented one... obviously ).

 

 

Did Solas not get all of the green magic goo out, or what? Did he just temporarily stop it from spreading?? Was this explained?

 

Nope, it wasn't. In fact the whole "The Mark will eventually kill you. Drawing you here gave me a chance to save you... at least for now" can be interpreted in two different ways, I suppose.

[Jayla]

I took it that so long as the Inquisitor bore the mark, they would die eventually. But Solas takes the Anchor away, so the Inquisitor is in the clear?

 

I could have read it wrong, but I sincerely hope my girl isn't due to die even with losing her arm. I will flip. D: I don't want another Shepard.

[Eivuwan]

He's taken away the Anchor, but no mortal could bear it and live, so the Inquisitor only has a few more years left. It's like excising a tumor in one part of the body and buying time that way, but the cancer still metastasizes. She's free of the immediate threat (say a tumor pressing on her lung) but cancerous cells yet linger in her system and it'll come back again even worse than before. That's why she's forever marked.

^ not trying to offend anyone with the cancer metaphor, I'm talking from personal experience

 

I thought the only reason why he said she has a few years is because he's planning to end the world within that time.

[Cee]

"at least for now" to me = "until I make my plan happen and it kills everyone"

[maia0407]

I took it that so long as the Inquisitor bore the mark, they would die eventually. But Solas takes the Anchor away, so the Inquisitor is in the clear?
 
I could have read it wrong, but I sincerely hope my girl isn't due to die even with losing her arm. I will flip. D: I don't want another Shepard.

Yeah, my Lavellan has supplanted the HOF as my favorite DA protagonist. I will not be happy if she's forced to die. I was a sad angry panda about shep.

[Cee]

I thought the only reason why he said she has a few years is because he's planning to end the world within that time.

 

 

Yes, to me, he's saving you from a painful death by renegade Anchor to give you some peaceful few years to live as best a life as you can.

[midnight tea]

Yeah, whatever he did weakened him immensely. Not so much physically, but it stripped him almost entirely of his magical power. Which, now that we know just how much he values magic and having a connection to the Fade, would be like giving up an arm and a leg to him. Or maybe like going from being able to reason and having discussions on this forum to only being capable of the most basic reading and writing. Those four years must've been incredibly difficult for him, being incapacitated like this. Kudos, Solas, for handling it so calmly.

 

Also, just now I realize just how painful seeing his power in quizzy's hands and seeing his Orb break must've been to him. I don't even know exactly what I can compare it to. It's like having lost your arm and leg but then you see somebody else having them and walking around in them, whereas you're struggling without them. (That actually happens in Fullmetal Alchemist... FMA makes everything more clear to me, once again )

 

I assume that yeah, he was probably really frustrated with the loss of his magical power (or a magical power of some sort. He does at on point say something about "no ordinary magic could fix the Breach"), but when it comes to Quizzy and Anchor... dunno, I think more than he is annoyed that he hasn't got the Mark, he's absolutely astounded when he finds out that the mortal can actually use it in any capacity.

 

Gotta admit, before Trespasser I was pretty sure that while he technically knew what Anchor was, it was unique enough for him to baffle it - now that we know that he specifically created it to enter the Fade and tear down the Veil, I'm pretty sure he's mostly baffled by Quizzy being able to use it. He even says in the Fade scene - "You were a mystery. You still ARE." and tells a non-romanced Inquisitor, even a mage that he didn't know that the Anchor would allow them to dream in such focus (even mages).

 

Therefore the "specialness" of the Anchor still lied more in the Inquisitor, rather than the Mark itself. Even if Solas was the only one who could bore the Anchor and lived, it's also possible that he didn't expect anybody would be able to use it, even to a limited extent. Certainly not a common gremlin, yo!

[MayriyaNoori]

"at least for now" to me = "until I make my plan happen and it kills everyone"

Yeah, this was my impression also.

 

But, I have to say the reality is we don't know what the long term effects will be of some of the things that the Inquisitor has gone through. For example, yes the Anchor kept Quizzy alive to go through the Fade with what appears to be no problem.......but I think I remember Dagna wanting a sample of the Inquisitor after that. Why on Thedas would Dagna want a sample of Quizzy after being in the Fade unless there is some kind of lingering something?

 

So, I recognize totally possible that there might be some kind of something left from the anchor.