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[Ardent Blossom]

I think I see what you're saying, I wasn't bashing the idea of Solas' plan as far as the writers or story goes, just Solas' plan in it of itself as far as he is concerned.

I figured that was what was going on. I sometimes try to avoid discussing the perceived inner workings of fictional characters' minds and instead focus on the actual written work. Chalk it up to old training from university. I feel guilty when I start talking about a character as if they are real. It's a bad/inconvenient/impossible way to be in this thread. 

[Ardent Blossom]

Not sure I'm really liking the flood comparison. I think the intention of the being bringing about the change does matter. I'm convinced that there is more going on than what Solas is telling us; he even says something like, "sometimes only bad choices remain". I interpret that to mean that he's trying to fix something that his going wrong and that not doing anything will have dire consequences as well. I just really can't judge Solas' intent until we know more.

 

In the case of the Old Testament god myths, he's supposed to have ultimate power and be able to shape reality as he pleases. He's the creator and can literally solve any problem in any way he wants. If he has ultimate power then nothing happens that he doesn't will. The cop out that he allows 'free will' even though he will kill you with a flood or torture you for eternity if you exercise that 'free' will in a way he disapproves of is pretty telling of his nature. There is no need for a being with such immense power to 'cleanse' the world of corruption that he allowed to happen. Are the children and babies that were killed also corrupt? The animals? I just can't compare Solas to OT god as he doesn't have unlimited power.

Oooo! You made me notice another similarity. The god of the Bible allows his creations free will, yet also imposes his harsh judgement upon them should they make the "wrong" choices. Solas supports free will (anti-Qun, anti-slavery, anti-drinking from the Well) yet he is imposing his choice to end modern Thedas upon the people. I'm not saying Solas and God are the same. I'm only saying the writers are using similar ideas. I think one could write a decent paper on the matter and a professor wouldn't complain. Ok...I'll stop talking about Solas and the Judaeo Christian God now.  

[maia0407]

Oooo! You made me notice another similarity. The god of the Bible allows his creations free will, yet also imposes his judgement upon them. Solas supports free will (anti-Qun, anti-slavery, anti-drinking from the Well) yet he is imposing his choice to end modern Thedas upon the people. I'm not saying Solas and God are the same. I'm only saying the writers are using similar ideas. I think one could write a decent paper on the matter and a professor wouldn't complain. Ok...I'll stop talking about Solas and the Judaeo Christian God now.  

That's a good point. My only complaint was the flood analogy as I think the intent of the people causing the destruction in both cases is important. As far as Solas imposing his will despite valuing free will, that's an excellent point. Solas is acting like a god even though he doesn't have the powers attributed to the Judaeo Christian God.

[Moondreamer01]

Oooo! You made me notice another similarity. The god of the Bible allows his creations free will, yet also imposes his judgement upon them. Solas supports free will (anti-Qun, anti-slavery, anti-drinking from the Well) yet he is imposing his choice to end modern Thedas upon the people. I'm not saying Solas and God are the same. I'm only saying the writers are using similar ideas. I think one could write a decent paper on the matter and a professor wouldn't complain. Ok...I'll stop talking about Solas and the Judaeo Christian God now.  

You shouldn't stop. I actually find the comparison enlightening and I agree with most of it. It's a frame of reference most in the western world understand, and a lot could be written about it But then, I was one of those who were fascinated with the Milton comparison too...

[maia0407]

You shouldn't stop. I actually find the comparison enlightening and I agree with most of it. It's a frame of reference most in the western world understand, and a lot could be written about it But then, I was one of those who were fascinated with the Milton comparison too...

Agreed! I might debate but I wasn't arguing for you to stop!

[Arvaarad]

Reminder that "doing so will most likely destroy your world" implies that the destruction is a side effect, not part of the goal.

Removing the Veil likely would grant magic to many more people, screwing up the current systems of power and causing conflict. It's also very likely to wake up the titans, and it's kiiiiiiiind of a bad thing when the pillars of the earth decide to roll out of bed. Or... move at all, really.

[Catfishers]

I'm out of likes but this whole discussion is fascinating, please continue 

[Ardent Blossom]

 

You shouldn't stop. I actually find the comparison enlightening and I agree with most of it. It's a frame of reference most in the western world understand, and a lot could be written about it   But then, I was one of those who were fascinated with the Milton comparison too...

 

Oh yes the Milton comparison!!!! Is Solas like Eve or is he like the Serpent? Both can be viewed as heroes...without either of them all the wonder of our modern world would not exist. Humanity would be blissfully ignorant in the Garden. I tend to think of him like Eve, especially in the part where Eve apologizes to Adam for bringing about their fall. It closely mirrored the epilogue scene with Mythal.

[Colonelkillabee]

Agreed. And it's not like the old world wasn't just as corrupted. Else Fen'Harel wouldn't exist as Solas would never have rebelled. So, bringing down the veil won't bring about Utopia, even in the long term once things settle down. As usual when there is a void, something will take its place. In this, Sera has more wisdom than Solas. From their conversation about the Red Jennies, when Solas asks her why she doesn't work on overthrowing the nobles and she answer with "What's the point? Some other corrupted people will only take their place" or something to that effect.

 

But, I doubt Solas is even thinking this far. All he sees is his mistake (the veil) and that it needs to be undone. As I'm unsure he even expect to live past the lifting of it, he's probably going "Eh, once my mistake is fixed, whoever is left will sort themselves out. I can't choose for them." Heck, I had the same reaction at the end of Trespasser when I realized Vivienne was resurrecting the circles despite my freeing the mages. "Eh, at this point, I can't choose the mages' future for them. They need to settle this for themselves."

 

Do I even make sense?

Makes perfect sense, and I believe you are correct. Or it's a likely thing anyway. It's at least better than the possibility of Solas being so selfish that he's willing to let everyone suffer for the possible resurrection of his world and people again, even though his love is one of these new elves he disassociates himself from.

 

I'm guessing it'll largely depend on his disposition to you as the Inquisitor. Was just telling my girlfriend now how funny the conversation with a quizzy could be if you were human, qunari or dwarf and your disposition wasn't high in the main game.

 

"Oh Inquisitor! Hey, I found a way to help the elves after all! See, I didn't give up on them!"

 

"I didn't mean help them and kill everyone else!"

 

"Oh.... how 'bout that. Trololololo, lololo, lololo!"

 

Lol.

[maia0407]

 

 

 

Oh yes the Milton comparison!!!! Is Solas like Eve or is he like the Serpent? Both can be viewed as heroes...without either of them all the wonder of our modern world would not exist. Humanity would be blissfully ignorant in the Garden. I tend to think of him like Eve, especially in the part where Eve apologizes to Adam for bringing about their fall. It closely mirrored the epilogue scene with Mythal.

 

Interesting. Solas is like an Eve character in that he ushers in a new world. But, he's unlike an eve character as, in his case, the new world results in the loss of knowledge and he wasn't acting out of a sense of curiosity. As far as the serpent goes, the serpent wanted to tempt his foes new creation and bring them to knowledge. Solas' plans were to avenge the death of Mythal and lock the evanuris away.

[Moondreamer01]

 

 

 

Oh yes the Milton comparison!!!! Is Solas like Eve or is he like the Serpent? Both can be viewed as heroes...without either of them all the wonder of our modern world would not exist. Humanity would be blissfully ignorant in the Garden. I tend to think of him like Eve, especially in the part where Eve apologizes to Adam for bringing about their fall. It closely mirrored the epilogue scene with Mythal.

 

The comparison actually concerned Lucifer, the fallen angel, if I remember well. Now, I'm no expert and my knowledge of Milton is spotty at best, but I do believe Solas' pride could be his downfall. Already is, it could be argued. But, seeing how badly the whole discussion was received the last time, I'm ready to let it drop if you guys would prefer that.

[Sah291]

Agreed. And it's not like the old world wasn't just as corrupted. Else Fen'Harel wouldn't exist as Solas would never have rebelled. So, bringing down the veil won't bring about Utopia, even in the long term once things settle down. As usual when there is a void, something will take its place. In this, Sera has more wisdom than Solas. From their conversation about the Red Jennies, when Solas asks her why she doesn't work on overthrowing the nobles and she answer with "What's the point? Some other corrupted people will only take their place" or something to that effect.
 
But, I doubt Solas is even thinking this far. All he sees is his mistake (the veil) and that it needs to be undone. As I'm unsure he even expect to live past the lifting of it, he's probably going "Eh, once my mistake is fixed, whoever is left will sort themselves out. I can't choose for them." Heck, I had the same reaction at the end of Trespasser when I realized Vivienne was resurrecting the circles despite my freeing the mages. "Eh, at this point, I can't choose the mages' future for them. They need to settle this for themselves."
 
Do I even make sense?

Perfect sense. People have to want change or they tend to just revert back to the way it was before. That was the whole lesson of DA2, I thought, and why Anders was so frustrated and forced the war. Because it wasn't really just the templars, as bad as they were, it was the mages too, remember..."they do it with our blessing". Does that mean no one should ever try to change anything ever? No. But there are a lot of people on both ends on the extreme, either trying to preserve a status quo at all costs, or chasing a uptopia that doesn't exist. Ok so Viv can have her circles then, I just don't see why everyone else has to be forced into it. Fiona can have her college too, why not? But watch, they will war amongst themselves over which system should be, as is implied in the epilogue. Gah you can really feel IQ's frustrated rants in Trespasser about things staying fixed

[maia0407]

The comparison actually concerned Lucifer, the fallen angel, if I remember well. Now, I'm no expert and my knowledge of Milton is spotty at best, but I do believe Solas' pride could be his downfall. Already is, it could be argued. But, seeing how badly the whole discussion was received the last time, I'm ready to let it drop if you guys would prefer that.

Oh, hadn't thought of the serpent analogy in terms of pride. That's interesting. I guess I wasn't around for the previous discussion. Hate that it turned bad but I don't think anyone here wants to drop it.

[Moondreamer01]

Interesting. Solas is like an Eve character in that he ushers in a new world. But, he's unlike an eve character as, in his case, the new world results in the loss of knowledge and he wasn't acting out of a sense of curiosity. As far as the serpent goes, the serpent wanted to tempt his foes new creation and bring them to knowledge. Solas' plans were to avenge the death of Mythal and lock the evanuris away.

On the other hand, the Inquisitor could be considered Eve. They also usher a new world, whatever decisions are taken about the mages, Empress Celene and by heading the inquisition against Corypheus. They also uncover knowledge lost to time (the titans, the first Inquisition, the elves) and that knowledge has the possibility of shaking Thedas to the core. That'S even more true if they are pitted against Solas in the next game. 

[Shari'El]

I'm risking sounding like a total idiot, but who is Milton? (What is a Milton?)

I know the story of Adam and Eve from the bible, and while for me Eve is named Havah, I don't know any... other... differences?

[maia0407]

On the other hand, the Inquisitor could be considered Eve. They also usher a new world, whatever decisions are taken about the mages, Empress Celene and by heading the inquisition against Corypheus. They also uncover knowledge lost to time (the titans, the first Inquisition, the elves) and that knowledge has the possibility of shaking Thedas to the core. That'S even more true if they are pitted against Solas in the next game. 

How ironic a pairing of the prideful Serpent and Curious Eve is in that context. Eve redeeming Lucifer. That's almost....epic!

[Moondreamer01]

Perfect sense. People have to want change or they tend to just revert back to the way it was before. That was the whole lesson of DA2, I thought, and why Anders was so frustrated and forced the war. Because it wasn't really just the templars, as bad as they were, it was the mages too, remember..."they do it with our blessing". Does that mean no one should ever try to change anything ever? No. But there are a lot of people on both ends on the extreme, either trying to preserve a status quo at all costs, or chasing a uptopia that doesn't exist. Ok so Viv can have her circles then, I just don't see why everyone else has to be forced into it. Fiona can have her college too, why not? But watch, they will war amongst themselves over which system should be, as is implied in the epilogue. Gah you can really feel IQ's frustrated rants in Trespasser about things staying fixed

In the end you can't force change on people. There will always be those, like Vivienne, who are afraid of radical changes in their lives and who will prefer the status quo. I think my Quizzie is learning that, at best, you can be a beacon of such change, the person to get the ball rolling, but any real change in the world takes time for mentalities to evolve. Change cannot be brought on by a single person, or even a small minority. It needs time to catch on or there will always be conflict (also quite true in real life : see gay marriage for example). 

[maia0407]

I'm risking sounding like a total idiot, but who is Milton? (What is a Milton?)

I know the story of Adam and Eve from the bible, and while for me Eve is named Havah, I don't know any... other... differences?

Paradise Lost Milton

 

https://en.wikipedia...i/Paradise_Lost

[FernRain]

Soo someone made this Solas face mod and I'm not sure what to think, I kind of like it.. What do you guys think?
 

 

 
[source]
 
He looks like Lucien Lachance with a hood haha. By Sithis.
 

[Ardent Blossom]

The comparison actually concerned Lucifer, the fallen angel, if I remember well. Now, I'm no expert and my knowledge of Milton is spotty at best, but I do believe Solas' pride could be his downfall. Already is, it could be argued. But, seeing how badly the whole discussion was received the last time, I'm ready to let it drop if you guys would prefer that.

Yes I meant Lucifer. You have any idea who far back this was discussed? I wonder how/why it was received poorly. Lucifer in Paradise Lost is an anti-hero. 

[Moondreamer01]

@FernRain

 

I've seen this mod on tumblr too. I can't say I'm in love with it. It just doesn't look like Solas anymore, at least to me.

[maia0407]

Soo someone made this Solas face mod and I'm not sure what to think, I kind of like it.. What do you guys think?
 
 

It's very nice mod but it's not Solas to me!

[LadyEledhwen]

No link to the subject...But I will never be over this sad face in Trespasser at the end, when Lavellan's crying in pain   In that moment, he's just Solas again and it's killing him watching her suffer like that, and furthermore because of him. And in that moment, all his resolve about being distant and kind of cold disappear...and there's just the man in love. 

 

Can't find the image though. A shame, cause I think it's the saddest looking Solas we've ever seen. Arguably sadder than when his spirit friend dies  

 

And yeah, I like Darth Solas, but it's just not the Solas I know and love...so no mod for me. I don't want to alter his appearance in any way  

[Ardent Blossom]

 
He looks like Lucien Lachance with a hood haha. By Sithis.
 

I just like the comparison to Lucien. 

[Sah291]

 
"Oh Inquisitor! Hey, I found a way to help the elves after all! See, I didn't give up on them!"
 
"I didn't mean help them and kill everyone else!"
 
"Oh.... how 'bout that. Trololololo, lololo, lololo!"
 
Lol.

This is why it's such a huge slap in the face for an Elven Quizzy, especially if you tried to encourge him to care more about elves. Oops.

I was thinking just how alike Solas and the Quizzy really are. Both trying to save worlds. The Quizzy states several times how they don't think certian things are "real" - In the Bad Future and in the fade. If you pick the more stoic options in the breakup, Solas reminds you it was "real" before he leaves. In Tresspasser, Quizzy can be in denial whether Fen'Harel is real. He/she can deny the existence of the Maker, call the Elven gods false, deny the fade, and spirits. I just find it ironic. They are exactly alike, in their own way.