Rather than educate/or work with us he's going to do what he thinks is right. Regardless that with the information we might be able to find a better way.
There is a quote by General Patton that I think Solas would adhere to. "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week."
Except the problem is, that's not always the case. Solas has been trying the violent execution strategy, and its failed him each time.
It may depend on the circumstances of the spirit turning into a demon. Solas's friend was bound against her will, so breaking her bindings caused her to go back to Wisdom. Here's what Cole and Solas have to say on the subject:
Solas doesn't seem to think it's possible to revert demons who come through rifts, or at least not while the Breach is active. Cole's last line is a bit cryptic; I wonder if by killing their physical forms and sealing the rifts, we are helping them in some sense? They can't be restored on this side of the Veil, but if you kill a spirit, its energy just goes back to the Fade. Without the rifts, it might reform one day as a spirit and not a demon.
Why in the world, then, does Solas think that tearing down the Veil won't hurt spirits too? Maybe if it goes down all at once and the two worlds instantly merge, there isn't the battering and bruising that Cole describes of being forcibly pulled through?
Hmm, I think he's going to bring down the veil as gently as possible so that the spirits will have more mental preparation.
Heh this reminds me of the good ol' days where we were discussing this, and Solas' capacity to be ruthless. I'm not one to say I told ya so though. (Yes I am XD )
Kidding, lol. I'm glad he indeed had a ruthless side, but hope he wouldn't go quite so far, not unless maybe he was using certain people like say... Orlesians, hehehe.... for the sacrifice. Then for me, even if we lose, I win.
But the last thing I want is him going "Muahaha!" bad. Ruthless, yes, but don't turn him into a big bad, or you'll make one of the most interesting characters rather boring. Main villain is fine though.
I am largely fine with him being ruthless, he is a complex character after all, and we love that. Unfortunately the problem I'm seeing now is that a large portion of BSN/Reddit seems to see him as the Big Bad, with all the evil stereotypes you can think of, I think he's been called a murderer, a psychopath, genocidal supremacist, etc.
Will Bioware let him be reduced to just that, since the majority of the DA players already seem to see him that way? In Trespasser, a low approval Inquisitor no longer sees his conflicted side, because presumably he is not conflicted. So... what will this mean for his character in DA4?
I'm with you 100%...and out of likes. Solas intentions are good not evil. His misguided course of action may have horrendous side effects--still GOOD INTENTIONS. Hopefully DA4 will allow players to find a better way to restore some of what was and to talk Solas out of his crazy.
Then again, perhaps people like us are just in denial. I hope there's room in that fort.
Edit: I see Colonelkillabee called us out on the denial.
I think his intentions are primarily good, too, although unfortunately I don't know if I can say they are 100% good. He does not wish harm to the other races per se, but the fact that he can disregard such an enormous amount of destruction makes me think it is a very grey area here.
Still going back to what Kieran says when he sees the elf quizzy, something about his surprise in your choosing the form you have. I got the impression that elves appearances were fluid. If that's cannon then eventually we could get hair for the bald elves right?
I'm kinda attached to bald Solas....but if they gave him the ability to shapeshift that his wolf form in our dreams implies...
Did he really shapeshift into a wolf in her dream? Somehow I thought that was just metaphorical. I think I must be one of the few who doesn't actually like the thought of his wolf form, but then I've never really been a fan of shapeshifting, even when Morrigan does it.
My imagination is going all over the place today. So let's say that using a Sailormoon cleansing move would cause you something significant. Maybe it would cause you a little bit of your own stat points. This would make the game harder and battles harder, but the accumulated karma points would somehow help you redeem/defeat Solas. It would be interesting if we enter the game as level 25 and everything is super easy at first, but gets harder depending on whether you want to accumulate Karma points. I have a feeling that this would be hard to implement in a balanced way though.
There is a quote by General Patton that I think Solas would adhere to. "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week."
Except the problem is, that's not always the case. Solas has been trying the violent execution strategy, and its failed him each time.
Third time lucky!
It may depend on the circumstances of the spirit turning into a demon. Solas's friend was bound against her will, so breaking her bindings caused her to go back to Wisdom. Here's what Cole and Solas have to say on the subject:
Solas doesn't seem to think it's possible to revert demons who come through rifts, or at least not while the Breach is active. Cole's last line is a bit cryptic; I wonder if by killing their physical forms and sealing the rifts, we are helping them in some sense? They can't be restored on this side of the Veil, but if you kill a spirit, its energy just goes back to the Fade. Without the rifts, it might reform one day as a spirit and not a demon.
Why in the world, then, does Solas think that tearing down the Veil won't hurt spirits too? Maybe if it goes down all at once and the two worlds instantly merge, there isn't the battering and bruising that Cole describes of being forcibly pulled through?
The veil itself is unnatural, if removed, it would revert to the way it was before (dialog at Haven and throughout the main game). There would be far fewer demons because there would be no veil to "drag them through" perverting their nature or purpose. There would be far fewer demon possessions as well, because they would no longer need to possess someone to cross the veil into the physical world....
KOTOR 2 actually did something like this in the cut content for the final boss level. It was restored by modders.
Basically, the big bad captures your companions in these weird Force prisons that only you can break. You can rush straight off to the big bad, which nets you a boatload of dark side points. If you stop to find and free them, you get light side points for each one, but breaching the Force prison costs you. Your stats, max Force points, and max health go down for each prison you break.
It wasn't perfect by a long shot, but it was a nice idea.
Yeah, I am liking this idea more and more. In most games, the game gets easier because you make your character physically stronger. But what if we have a game that makes the character physically weaker, but mentally stronger? Besides, it makes sense that battles should get harder and harder. Corypheus was too easy to kill.
It's interesting to note that the Forgotten ones appear to deny the Evanuris' godhood just as Solas does.
There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.
I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.
I keep forgetting about the Forgotten Ones, but now that I'm thinking about it, the Dalish legends about the Dread Wolf mention that he moved between the Forgotten Ones and the Gods, and was considered friend by both groups. While the Dalish were wrong about means and motive, they still had the basic facts correct; Fen'Harel imprisoned the gods.
But what of the Forgotten Ones? Where do they factor into the true version of history? And what is their connection to Solas, if there truly is one?
Third time lucky!
Haha! I think Solas wishes this was the third attempt. I don't even want to know what attempt we're on now.
Solas is like me, baking a cake. At each stage of the process you have reached a critical failure, but you push on in the belief that somehow it will resemble an actual cake when you are done. And when the Frankenstein process is complete, you are left with a blob of cake and dripping frosting that tastes like failure and looks nothing like the card in the book.
Only that cake is Thedas.
It's interesting to note that the Forgotten ones appear to deny the Evanuris' godhood just as Solas does.There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.
In Bioware games, we usually end up sacrificing other people (which is hard for a lot of players) to advance our goals. The game might be more intense if we had to sacrifice bits of ourselves throughout the game and not just dying at the final boss battle.
I agree with this. Even if what he's going to do is necessary (and I think we'll find out that it basically is, in order to avoid something worse), it will still cause an awful lot of chaos and death, and the person responsible will forever be seen as a monster. He knows this, because it's already happened to him - he did the thing (created the veil) that saved the world from the Evanuris, but in doing so 'destroyed' his world, and the survivors do indeed see him as a monster. For a loved/befriended Inquisitor, he doesn't want them to share that burden - but even for a low approval Inquisitor, I think it's more than that. He wants the Inquisitor to stand against him, even though he knows they'll ultimately fail (and I think they will fail, the veil is coming down), because in all the chaos that follows, the world will need someone who 'fought against the tide' (as Solas said in his banter with Blackwall), people who they are able to see as a beacon of hope and a bit of a hero; and I think he has the Inquisitor (and allies) marked for that purpose.
And the dying alone thing can be read in different ways. He brings the veil down, he dies alone with the entire world hating him; he leaves it in place, he dies alone (more figuratively) as the last of his kind (Abelas and the others aren't like him, they still wear vallaslin and serve the gods or whatever).
So. Now I've made myself feel sad
Wasn't a limit put on how far back in time that anyone could go? I think it was as far back as when the breach started, correct? So, unless a different type of time travel magic is used, which really opens up the world for any crazy thing to happen, I don't think Solas can go far enough back to accomplish his goals.
I was glad to see such limits on the time magic and really don't want this to return outsdie those parameters.
Lmao!! Excellent. I'm here to serve@Solas,
Gosh you make me laugh. I ended up choking a bit because of you!!
And an emergency Arlathvhen would be a sight to see. The Dalish indignation would be hilarious.
And I want to see lovely Merrill.. with her eluvian.
In Bioware games, we usually end up sacrificing other people (which is hard for a lot of players) to advance our goals. The game might be more intense if we had to sacrifice bits of ourselves throughout the game and not just dying at the final boss battle.
Well, we did that already...at the end of Trespasser...Right?!?!
Well, we did that already...at the end of Trespasser...Right?!?!
True lol, but that's at the end. I want it to be a gameplay mechanic to make the journey itself more intense.
Edit: But then I am the kind of person who likes playing on nightmare mode to make the journey feel more realistic so more casual players might not like this idea.
Well, we did that already...at the end of Trespasser...Right?!?!
That's what we get for trying to give everyone a hand. But it's all right, there's so much left to do even now!
(the bad puns... someone stop me now...)
The veil itself is unnatural, if removed, it would revert to the way it was before (dialog at Haven and throughout the main game). There would be far fewer demons because there would be no veil to "drag them through" perverting their nature or purpose. There would be far fewer demon possessions as well, because they would no longer need to possess someone to cross the veil into the physical world....
Didn't Solas also say that perversions can happen if people expect a spirit to be a demon? If that is the case, then perversions can still happen since current Thedosians have been taught that spirits are demons.
The veil itself is unnatural, if removed, it would revert to the way it was before (dialog at Haven and throughout the main game). There would be far fewer demons because there would be no veil to "drag them through" perverting their nature or purpose. There would be far fewer demon possessions as well, because they would no longer need to possess someone to cross the veil into the physical world....
To quote Leliana, "pure speculation." Like all the other speculation we've been doing here 
I certainly don't want Thedas to be f***ed, but IMO this outcome is unlikely. The Fade and the mortal world have been separated for thousands of years, developed separately, and the Veil is not a reset button.
Think of it like taking a heavily domesticated species (say, dogs) and reintroducing it to the wild. Yes, they are still the closest relatives of wolves. Yes, they can still interbreed and share a common past. But they've been separated from that environment and behavior for thousands of years. The world of dogs and the world of wolves have evolved over that time. Simply reintroducing one to the other would be disastrous, and certainly wouldn't revert it to the way it was before.
*dramatically returns from the very verge of the abyss...*
...Goddamnit, this thread grows as if it was fed a steady stream of mutated donuts!! So many interesting points made, so many comments I want to respond or like, but alas...!
I also have to admit that I'm starting to REALLY itch to draw or write something on my own... but I have so many half-baked ideas I don't know what to put my hands in (as per usual!)
I've been thinking about this whole bring down the Veil, end modern Thedas thing. And... while I still believe it's horrifying based on the amount of innocent deaths that could result, the path the world is on does not look to be going to a good place anyway. You have dwarves dying out, elves being oppressed and dying out, the Qun looming overhead, the blights, darkspawn, mages and demons and possession and that's just the things we know are a threat. And while things were bad for the elves pre-Veil because of the Evanuris, and no world will be a Utopia... I dunno. I'm not going to help Solas murder millions, but if we're given the option to bring about change I'll probably go for it and hope for the best. Otherwise you'll see the elves and dwarves both extinct, the qunari will wage a bloody and terrible war over the humans that remain, and then probably everyone will curl up and die when the last archdemons are dead and darkspawn fill the world. Maybe all of that wouldn't come to pass, but you can't look at how things are and pretend it's not at least possible.
There has to be another way than "murder everyone and start over," but from where I'm looking at it, change has to happen one way or another. 
Didn't Solas also say that perversions can happen if people expect a spirit to be a demon? If that is the case, then perversions can still happen since current Thedosians have been taught that spirits are demons.
I've been thinking about this whole bring down the Veil, end modern Thedas thing. And... while I still believe it's horrifying based on the amount of innocent deaths that could result, the path the world is on does not look to be going to a good place anyway. You have dwarves dying out, elves being oppressed and dying out, the Qun looming overhead, the blights, darkspawn, mages and demons and possession and that's just the things we know are a threat. And while things were bad for the elves pre-Veil because of the Evanuris, and no world will be a Utopia... I dunno. I'm not going to help Solas murder millions, but if we're given the option to bring about change I'll probably go for it and hope for the best. Otherwise you'll see the elves and dwarves both extinct, the qunari will wage a bloody and terrible war over the humans that remain, and then probably everyone will curl up and die when the last archdemons are dead and darkspawn fill the world. Maybe all of that wouldn't come to pass, but you can't look at how things are and pretend it's not at least possible.
There has to be another way than "murder everyone and start over," but from where I'm looking at it, change has to happen one way or another.
I think most people can agree that Thedas as it stands is broken in a lot of ways. Things definitely aren't working as they are supposed to be. My guess is that this is why Flemeth [and to an extent, Morrigan], are anxiously awaiting some great 'change'. The veil needs to be down in order for the world to start healing itself. So at least part of Solas's plan isn't unreasonable.
It just might cause a lot of calamity in the process as various powers vie for control.
Didn't Solas also say that perversions can happen if people expect a spirit to be a demon? If that is the case, then perversions can still happen since current Thedosians have been taught that spirits are demons.
Perhaps Solas will help the spirits become unsundered from themselves as the veil is being brought down. This might make them more resistant to turning into demons.
Not if they're all dead though. Hm. Maybe that's why people need to die? So their perceptions won't affect spirits anymore?
Likely, yes. Will seems to shape Thedas to great extent, so it's only natural that biases and presuppositions do to. In fact, it's implied that the Veil itself is more akin to a grand mass illusion rather than physical barrier, so....
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