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[drosophila]

No I agree, I'm just, amazed that I'm willing to read 100k+ words of pure fluff to mend that broken heart. I mean, I'd need plot and good prose too, but. Wow. I never thought I'd spend so much time doing that. This romance has torn my priorities to shreds 

 

It's really not that surprising when you think about it. Fanfic is its own little niche, some of it explores themes, has conflict, etc., just like the rest of literature. 

 

And then there's fluff, because people just have the need to hang out with the character more, the way they would with their real friends or romantic partners. 

 

(There's also smut for other needs.)

[BoscoBread]

It's really not that surprising when you think about it. Fanfic is its own little niche, some of it explores themes, has conflict, etc., just like the rest of literature. 

 

And then there's fluff, because people just have the need to hang out with the character more, the way they would with their real friends or romantic partners. 

 

(There's also smut for other needs.)

[figment_]

I agree that the veil might be a gigantic "barrier" around the Fade. I started thinking about this mural again:

Spoiler

 

Ummm...What are the implications if those "cells" or chambers represent the Evanuris and their orbs??? What if the power/orbs of the Evanuris are the only thing "holding the veil in place" for all these years??? (Shudders)...I think I just scared myself....

 

 

Still trucking on WoT2 but it is interesting to note this might be relevant? 

 

Even if it's the imprisoned Pantheon (as above, quoted for context), that would possibly mean that the Evanuris would have to be released in order to remove the veil, not the other way around. That thought is...disturbing.

 

If that is true maybe they could be released and reformed, if possible, one by one and hopefully in a weakened state...

 

Re: the image you posted...I've seen this and been contemplating the relevance of this passage too. My initial impression of the mural above was that it might represent the Old Golds/potential Archdemons (with their blight resistance) being the locks or guardians of the "prison" for an even "bigger bad", like the Blight, the Formless One, the Forgotten Ones, or maybe the Void itself...Terrifying!!!

[flabbadence]

Solas and Lavellan don't spend every moment of their relationship constantly undermining, belittling, or mistreating one another, nor feeling helplessly angry or miserable about/around the other. Solas' comments to the Dalish aside (which he can eventually change his mind about), a romanced Solas makes it clear that he likes, respects, values, and enjoys being around the Inquisitor (for the DA2 romances, the "rivalmanced" companions always looked miserable around Hawke), and supports your endeavors against the Breach and Corypheus. A Lavellan who romances him, in turn, is also shown to be kind, gentle, supportive, respectful, etc.

 

Solas leaving is terrible, but up until that point their relationship was very loving and supportive, and they were happy together, and one gets the feeling that if Solas could let go of his Fatal Flaw of Pride and Lone Wolfiness (and trust Lavellan to help him), their relationship can eventually recover and become loving and supportive and solid again.

 

The DA2 "rivalmances" are just Hawke being emotionally abusive to their partner, and as a direct result said partner almost always looking and feeling helplessly angry, miserable, undermined, patronized, etc. (read: Merrill constantly looks miserable, Fenris is always pacing and snarling like a caged tiger, and Anders is desperately frustrated), and possibly made to feel like everything they are or everything they believe in is invalidated (read: trying to dissuade or sabotage Merrill from repairing the mirror even though it means so much to her, constantly supporting Templars and imprisoning mages in front of Anders, telling Fenris to "get over" his horrific abuse from mages or even working with slavers or taking on slaves even though he was a slave), yet they stick around because... apparently they enjoy being served Humble Pie and always come back for seconds.

 

I'm not saying "no drama ever," but there's a difference between how DAI handled it and how DA2 handed it. Drama arising from conflicting circumstances or life goals (Dorian has to go back to Tevinter because he feels it's the right thing, Solas going on to try to take down the Veil because he feels it's the right thing) is different from "drama" (anger, misery, tears, yelling) arising from one or both partners treating the other like absolute dirt.

 

I don't think it's right to automatically label the rivalmances in DA2 as emotionally abusive, though that'll depend on how you played Hawke. Why did your romance become your rival? If it's because you wanted to tear them down and exploit them, then sure that's abusive. But what if you played a Hawke that's firmly against blood magic, and risking possession and death to ferret out ancient dangerous secrets? Then that'll probably mean you'll rival Merrill, who sees blood magic as a tool and is willing to risk everything to learn more about the eluvian.

 

But that doesn't mean you can't love her, or that she can't love your Hawke. They just disagree on key issues.

 

It's arguable, of course, that if they're so opposed on such fundamental issues, then maybe they shouldn't even enter a romance in the first place. But ultimately, if you rival Merrill, it's her decision to break that mirror, even if your Hawke helped lead her there. It could be abusive if you play it that way, or it could be seen as your Hawke trying to help their companions better themselves.

 

Like Solas, intent is key to understanding.

[BoscoBread]

I don't think it's right to automatically label the rivalmances in DA2 as emotionally abusive, though that'll depend on how you played Hawke. Why did your romance become your rival? If it's because you wanted to tear them down and exploit them, then sure that's abusive. But what if you played a Hawke that's firmly against blood magic, and risking possession and death to ferret out ancient dangerous secrets? Then that'll probably mean you'll rival Merrill, who sees blood magic as a tool and is willing to risk everything to learn more about the eluvian.

 

But that doesn't mean you can't love her, or that she can't love your Hawke. They just disagree on key issues.

 

It's arguable, of course, that if they're so opposed on such fundamental issues, then maybe they shouldn't even enter a romance in the first place. But ultimately, if you rival Merrill, it's her decision to break that mirror, even if your Hawke helped lead her there. It could be abusive if you play it that way, or it could be seen as your Hawke trying to help their companions better themselves.

 

Like Solas, intent is key to understanding.

Yeah - and those rivalmances are pretty...gamey(as they have to be). But you don't see the in-between and the day-to-day.  You see them when they are dealing with key issues.  But there are other things that make a romance. 

 

And yeah - if it's that fundamental, it's likely that they may fizzle out but maybe not.  

[flabbadence]

I actually cannot read the fanfics that are a little...harsher.  Handling more...umm..."harsher" characterizations is tricky business.  And usually they have Solas come off as almost abusive.  Like he's this taut string ready to snap and I NEVER got that from him.  He's a person at the precipice of a total breakdown and may end up causing more harm to himself than anyone else.  But anyways I find those incredibly difficult to read.  

 

So i do enjoy the fluff. 

 

As I'm thinking of trying my hand out on a Solas POV fic, thank you, now I know how I'm going to go about it 

 

 

It's really not that surprising when you think about it. Fanfic is its own little niche, some of it explores themes, has conflict, etc., just like the rest of literature. 

 

And then there's fluff, because people just have the need to hang out with the character more, the way they would with their real friends or romantic partners. 

 

(There's also smut for other needs.)

 

Oh yes, there's so much fanfic on the internet that's a million times better written than some of the "official" books I have to buy. But man. You'd think I'd be tired of reading about the same two people falling in love and figuring that love out over and over again 

 

Ahahaha, amen to the fanfic writers who provide

[Uirebhiril]

Re: the image you posted...I've seen this and been contemplating the relevance of this passage too. My initial impression of the mural above was that it might represent the Old Golds/potential Archdemons (with their blight resistance) being the locks or guardians of the "prison" for an even "bigger bad", like the Blight, the Formless One, the Forgotten Ones, or maybe the Void itself...Terrifying!!!

 

Imagine if the result of the last archdemon being killed is the Veil coming down in much the same way it did when Corypheus punched through it. Darkspawn would be the least of everyone's worries.

 

Makes me wonder about the comment Solas has about the Wardens buying people some time.

[BoscoBread]

As I'm thinking of trying my hand out on a Solas POV fic, thank you, now I know how I'm going to go about it 

 

 

 

Oh yes, there's so much fanfic on the internet that's a million times better written than some of the "official" books I have to buy. But man. You'd think I'd be tired of reading about the same two people falling in love and figuring that love out over and over again 

 

Ahahaha, amen to the fanfic writers who provide

Yeah, definitely try it.  I know he's notoriously difficult to write for.   It's not discourage anyone that wants to write that way -- some of them may have been intentional.  But it's not my cup of tea.  One of the people that I think writes him really well is Azzandra. She mostly does Solas x Trevelyan - but her Solas is pretty spot on  http://archiveofouro...hapters/8345287

[figment_]

 

 

Imagine if the result of the last archdemon being killed is the Veil coming down in much the same way it did when Corypheus punched through it. Darkspawn would be the least of everyone's worries.

 

Makes me wonder about the comment Solas has about the Wardens buying people some time.

 

Or if it opens the Gateway to the Void!!!

[drosophila]

Solas leaving is terrible, but up until that point their relationship was very loving and supportive, and they were happy together, and one gets the feeling that if Solas could let go of his Fatal Flaw of Pride and Lone Wolfiness (and trust Lavellan to help him), their relationship can eventually recover and become loving and supportive and solid again.

 

That's one interpretation of how the relationship was off-screen. It's not the only possible one. 

 

To me it didn't look like he was supportive, he was very withdrawn and they both seemed conflicted about where this was going and if it should be happening. 

 

I think both views are right. 

 

 

The DA2 "rivalmances" are just Hawke being emotionally abusive to their partner, and as a direct result said partner almost always looking and feeling helplessly angry, miserable, undermined, patronized, etc. (read: Merrill constantly looks miserable, Fenris is always pacing and snarling like a caged tiger, and Anders is desperately frustrated), and possibly made to feel like everything they are or everything they believe in is invalidated (read: trying to dissuade or sabotage Merrill from repairing the mirror even though it means so much to her, constantly supporting Templars and imprisoning mages in front of Anders, telling Fenris to "get over" his horrific abuse from mages or even working with slavers or taking on slaves even though he was a slave), yet they stick around because... apparently they enjoy being served Humble Pie and always come back for seconds.

 

 

Here, also this is one way to interpret it. I did not see it as Hawke being emotionally abusive, I saw it as people who are attracted to each other but have fundamental disagreements over something. It was interesting.

 

Again, I think both views are right.

 

 

I'm not saying "no drama ever," but there's a difference between how DAI handled it and how DA2 handed it. Drama arising from conflicting circumstances or life goals (Dorian has to go back to Tevinter because he feels it's the right thing, Solas going on to try to take down the Veil because he feels it's the right thing) is different from "drama" (anger, misery, tears, yelling) arising from one or both partners treating the other like absolute dirt.

 

Why should conflict always arise from the outside? Why can't it come from characters fundamentally disagreeing with one another? Why should anger, misery, tears, and yelling be shamefully hidden away when they can and do happen. Sometimes two people are just wrong for each other, I think it's dangerous for fiction to just create these perfect situations where no one would go for the wrong person ever. 

[kalasaurus]

I was having a nostalgia kick to Battlestar Galactica and made this Solas video

 

[flabbadence]

Yeah, definitely try it.  I know he's notoriously difficult to write for.   It's not discourage anyone that wants to write that way -- some of them may have been intentional.  But it's not my cup of tea.  One of the people that I think writes him really well is Azzandra. She mostly does Solas x Trevelyan - but her Solas is pretty spot on  http://archiveofouro...hapters/8345287

 

OH MY GOD YES I LOVE HER WRITING AHHHHHHHHHHHH

[EnaShepard]

*whispers* I posted Chapter 2 of my Modern AU, "Law and Order: Inquisition"
Link: http://archiveofouro...apters/11165968
*slowly exits the room*

[Ghost Gal]

Not unlike the Solas romance. That one tops the emotionally unhealthy and destructive rankings. 

 

 

 

 

I agree when it comes to real life, but it's fiction. What point would there be to the story if there's no conflict?

 

Drama is a chance to explore the personalities of different characters and how they clash. It can reveal faces of a character you've never seen. It's a battle of wills, wits, and words. If we took all the dramatic realtionships out of literature, because they're not right and shouldn't be happening, many, many good works would be lost. 

 

Not saying everyone should be playing rivalmances, but I just don't agree with the idea that it's unhealthy for the character, so it shouldn't happen. I wouldn't read/watch/play something where they brush their teeth, go to the gym, and have polite conversations over a balanced meal. 

 

DA2 "Rivalmance" is nothing but the ability to roleplay an emotional abuser who can insult, humiliate, belittle, undermine, patronize, mistreat, and sabotage their partner with impunity, since said partner just keeps coming back for more (even though they obviously look angry, miserable or frustrated over it) and fawning over you and putting out for you anyway. What a valuable roleplay experience. 

 

In real life, I was an a relationship similar to Merrill's "Rivalmance" where I was the Merrill, not the Hawke. It was not fun. It messed me up very badly emotionally, and I didn't realize until later that I always felt miserable and invalidated and was an emotional wreck toward the end because partner was emotionally abusive.

 

The fact that BioWare presented that kind of relationship in a video game with the player as the abuser and tried to pass it off as "still healthy, even though you disagree" is honestly disgusting to me. (It's all good and well for you to say "That relationship is not so bad" when you're the Hawke, but not when you're the Merrill.)

 

I also never said "no drama ever" or that I thought the Solas romance was 100% healthy or without problem, but at least it doesn't glorify abuse.

[midnight tea]

Or if it opens the Gateway to the Void!!!

 

Well, Drakon's prophecy does mention SEVEN gates to the Golden/Black city...

[Ghost Gal]

I don't think it's right to automatically label the rivalmances in DA2 as emotionally abusive, though that'll depend on how you played Hawke.

 

I was the Merrill in a real-life relationship similar to Hawke's "rivalmance" with Merrill.

 

It's all good and well for you to say "it's not so bad" when you're the Hawke, but not when you're on the receiving end of that treatment.

[flabbadence]

I was the Merrill in a real-life relationship similar to Hawke's "rivalmance" with Merrill.

 

It's all good and well for you to say "it's not so bad" when you're the Hawke, but not when you're on the receiving end of that treatment.

 

Then I sympathize, though I won't take back what I said. I still think interpretations can vary. But it's your playthrough, so take whichever path you like. That's what choices and character creation are for, after all.

[BoscoBread]

Well, Drakon's prophecy does mention SEVEN gates to the Golden/Black city...

OOOOOOOOOOOO - That would uphold my theory that the archdemon's are the evanuris.  

[flabbadence]

OOOOOOOOOOOO - That would uphold my theory that the archdemon's are the evanuris.  

 

Wait, so by that theory do you mean the archdemons are the flesh prisons of the evanuris?

 

Oh. That makes a horrifying amount of sense.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I've only seen DA2 rivalmance videos on Youtube, but except for Isabela they all look like toxic, destructive, emotionally unhealthy relationships. "Drama" should not come at the expense of people's mental and emotional health, so I'm glad the rivalmance didn't come back for DAI.

The only rivalmance I have experience with is Fenris. I did it while being perfectly kind to him, with a side of snark, but it was the snarking he thought was funny. There was only one time I ever snapped at him and, well, he was being a jerk and deserved it. Otherwise, I just took him everywhere with me and he disagreed on a lot of my choices. But I never had to be a jerk and the relationship was not unhealthy. I was very anti-slavery, I took down murderers like that elf-targeting serial killer, I helped Fenris personally whenever I could, etc. It really was a "I respect you and love you even though I disagree with your soft spot for mages" kinda thing. 

 

I think you can get the same result for the others. Like you can love Merrill and still think rebuilding the eluvian is a bad idea or that those evil books should be destroyed, and it makes sense. And you can love Anders while still erring on the side of law and order and stating that you think magic does need regulation. It *is* slightly less believable that Anders would still be in a relationship with you considering how much of his identity is wrapped up in the magic issue, but its workable. Maybe I give the characters more credit than they're due, but I do think they can accept disagreement from Hawke and still love them. It even eventually leads to character development on their parts a bit. (My favorite part of the friendship/rivalry system was the resulting influence you had on the companions' development, subtle as it was in some cases.)

 

So, sure, you CAN be a total ass/evil person to get rivalry points and end up in a rivalmance. But you don't HAVE to.

[Cee]

 

That's one interpretation of how the relationship was off-screen. It's not the only possible one. 

 

To me it didn't look like he was supportive, he was very withdrawn and they both seemed conflicted about where this was going and if it should be happening.

 

I did see it as two people being respectful and supportive of one another. When he comments on hesitation and doubts, her saying "Take all the time you need" was a mature and healthy thing to do. It just seemed like people giving one another space but didn't seem conflicted or tense or anything to me. The result was the balcony scene. He is hesitant in that scene again. He shifts his view and isn't speaking as steadily or as confidently as usual. She pulled him back, and they gave into whatever was there.  I've also commented about the shifting body language over time between them, and how it shows growing physical intimacy.

 

Since there aren't extras like being able to go kiss your LI in between or additional romance only quests and scenes, a lot of it does fall to headcanon.

 

I'm not saying the other view, of him being withdrawn and such, can't be someone's interpretation, but just offering why it wasn't mine.

[figment_]

Well, Drakon's prophecy does mention SEVEN gates to the Golden/Black city...

I think it would help A LOT if we knew what this mural is supposed to represent; The Pantheon/Evanuris or the Forgotten Ones (who might be the Old Gods?), or the Old Gods if they're not the same thing...What are the chances they'll tell us if we ask nicely?

[drosophila]

In real life, I was an a relationship similar to Merrill's "Rivalmance" where I was the Merrill, not the Hawke. It was not fun. It messed me up very badly emotionally, and I didn't realize until later that I always felt miserable and invalidated and was an emotional wreck toward the end because partner was emotionally abusive.

 

The fact that BioWare presented that kind of relationship in a video game with the player as the abuser and tried to pass it off as "still healthy, even though you disagree" is honestly disgusting to me. (It's all good and well for you to say "That relationship is not so bad" when you're the Hawke, but not when you're the Merrill.)

 

I also never said "no drama ever" or that I thought the Solas romance was 100% healthy or without problem, but at least it doesn't glorify abuse.

 

I'm very sorry you were in an emotionally abusive relationship. It's a horrible, twisted thing for one to emotionally undermine their partner, and I'm glad you had the strength to walk away. I can see how watching something that reminds you of that would be very hurtful. It should absolutely not be a gaming experience that is forced on anyone.

 

At the same time, I don't think the game glorified any of the romances. They were just there to experience. Personally reading/playing/watching a story that has a lot of conflict and disagreement does not make me think it's better or make me want to re-enact that conflict with my loved ones. It just makes me reflect on them and I want that opportunity. 

[AutumnOracle]

Wait, so by that theory do you mean the archdemons are the flesh prisons of the evanuris?

 

Oh. That makes a horrifying amount of sense.

 

It would also make sense why Solas hates them so much.  While at the same time admitting that they had bought us time.

[figment_]

OOOOOOOOOOOO - That would uphold my theory that the archdemon's are the evanuris.  

Doesn't the Chant say they (the Maker's first children= Old Gods) were imprisoned in the Void after the Magisters corrupted the Golden City?