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[drosophila]

I did see it as two people being respectful and supportive of one another. When he comments on hesitation and doubts, her saying "Take all the time you need" was a mature and healthy thing to do. It just seemed like people giving one another space but didn't seem conflicted or tense or anything to me. The result was the balcony scene. He is hesitant in that scene again. He shifts his view and isn't speaking as steadily or as confidently as usual. She pulled him back, and they gave into whatever was there.  I've also commented about the shifting body language over time between them, and how it shows growing physical intimacy.

 

Since there aren't extras like being able to go kiss your LI in between or additional romance only quests and scenes, a lot of it does fall to headcanon.

 

I'm not saying the other view, of him being withdrawn and such, can't be someone's interpretation, but just offering why it wasn't mine.

 

Ugh, and I just ran out of likes, but yeah, I agree with your interpretation too! 

[BoscoBread]

Wait, so by that theory do you mean the archdemons are the flesh prisons of the evanuris?

 

Oh. That makes a horrifying amount of sense.

Yeah - it's not mine mine.  It's certainly not new. People have been bandying that about since DA:O and especially DA2. 

 

But you have 9 evanuris - including Solas and Mythal. But only 7 Old Gods(Archdemons) locked away which fits. 

 

It would also speak to his really crazed insistence of not awakening them.  An archdemon is not blighted UNTIL the darkspawn get to them. 

 

They are in a prison. They are asleep.   I also think the dragon form they take - it was necessary for them to take that form in order to be immortal.  The game counts how many high dragons you kill.  There is also that big overture about NOT killing the dragon in the DLC. I don't think THOSE are the evanuris but possibly elven nobles. Either descendents or actually the nobles stuck in that form when the veil fell.  (that's my cuckoo theory)

[BoscoBread]

Doesn't the Chant say they (the Maker's first children= Old Gods) were imprisoned in the Void after the Magisters corrupted the Golden City?

Yeah but again the Chant twists things to fit into their religion. You can't trust it.  

 

And they said the blight stemmed from that. it didn't. we know from the game the blight predated tevinter. the magisters. it's possibly older than the elvhen empire.  i think a fair interpretation of it, is that it's a naturally occurring disease that afflicts  titans. 

[Cee]

DA2 "Rivalmance" is nothing but the ability to roleplay an emotional abuser who can insult, humiliate, belittle, undermine, patronize, mistreat, and sabotage their partner with impunity, since said partner just keeps coming back for more (even though they obviously look angry, miserable or frustrated over it) and fawning over you and putting out for you anyway. What a valuable roleplay experience. 

 

In real life, I was an a relationship similar to Merrill's "Rivalmance" where I was the Merrill, not the Hawke. It was not fun. It messed me up very badly emotionally, and I didn't realize until later that I always felt miserable and invalidated and was an emotional wreck toward the end because partner was emotionally abusive.

 

The fact that BioWare presented that kind of relationship in a video game with the player as the abuser and tried to pass it off as "still healthy, even though you disagree" is honestly disgusting to me. (It's all good and well for you to say "That relationship is not so bad" when you're the Hawke, but not when you're the Merrill.)

 

I also never said "no drama ever" or that I thought the Solas romance was 100% healthy or without problem, but at least it doesn't glorify abuse.

 

First of all *hugs* I've also been on that side of abuse, and it's very individual how much of something might bring those old feelings back (like holy hell, last night Facebook suggested someone with a similar name to my ex, who I have blocked everywhere. I spent a zillion minutes making sure and seeing an actual account of his with some sort of love everybody quote, I wanted to barf with revulsion). I can understand why you'd feel that way about a rivalmance because it can hit on some of these same points. Feeling like you're being dismissed. Or someone else knows better. Or being belittled. Or leading you to you defend them even when it bothers you.

 

And even with the Solas dislikes you path, he has the ability to be kind of nasty and sometimes downright venomous, but it's different, as you say. The romance doesn't even go anywhere near there. The problems inherent in that romance, whatever your approval, are of a very different kind.

[flabbadence]

Yeah - it's not mine mine.  It's certainly not new. People have been bandying that about since DA:O and especially DA2. 

 

But you have 9 evanuris - including Solas and Mythal. But only 7 Old Gods(Archdemons) locked away which fits. 

 

It would also speak to his really crazed insistence of not awakening them.  An archdemon is not blighted UNTIL the darkspawn get to them. 

 

They are in a prison. They are asleep.   I also think the dragon form they take - it was necessary for them to take that form in order to be immortal.  The game counts how many high dragons you kill.  There is also that big overture about NOT killing the dragon in the DLC. I don't think THOSE are the evanuris but possibly elven nobles. Either descendents or actually the nobles stuck in that form when the veil fell.  (that's my cuckoo theory)

 

Or if the Dalish tale about the Dread Wolf is somewhat true, maybe they took dragon form because they were gearing up to fight the Forgotten Ones after Fen'Harel leads them to the weapon he promised, and got stuck there once the Veil came up.

[Uirebhiril]

It would also speak to his really crazed insistence of not awakening them.  An archdemon is not blighted UNTIL the darkspawn get to them. 
 

 

I'm having a fail-to-remember moment... the line Cole (?) says about they forgot how to wake up... was that for the Titans, or...?

[BoscoBread]

I'm having a fail-to-remember moment... the line Cole (?) says about they forgot how to wake up... was that for the Titans, or...?

THat's for those sleeper tomb things in the deep roads. 

 

So I think that's just elves in uthenera.  

[Cee]

The elves in uthenera. I really wonder just how many are left.

[midnight tea]

I'm having a fail-to-remember moment... the line Cole (?) says about they forgot how to wake up... was that for the Titans, or...?

 

He makes comments about forgetting how to wake up in Deep Roads section of Trespasser. He also has a comment in Winter Palace about "They've made bodies out of earth and the earth was afraid. It fought back, but they've made her forget" or something of the sort.

[midnight tea]

THat's for those sleeper tomb things in the deep roads. 

 

So I think that's just elves in uthenera.  

 

No, he has a different comment for them. "Corpses that aren't dead" or something of the sort.

[BoscoBread]

No, he has a different comment for them. "Corpses that aren't dead" or something of the sort.

OH ok.  i am corrected!  

[dawnstone]

Well, Drakon's prophecy does mention SEVEN gates to the Golden/Black city...

OOOOOOOOOOOO - That would uphold my theory that the archdemon's are the evanuris.  

Wait, so by that theory do you mean the archdemons are the flesh prisons of the evanuris?

 

Oh. That makes a horrifying amount of sense.

(Time to flog this theory again ^^)

 

I've long thought that the Old Gods were like the dragon Corypheus had holding onto a bit of his spirit to make it so he couldn't die. Solas said that was the trick to his effective immortality.

 

I believe the Evanuris each had a dragon horcrux buried deep beneath the earth to protect it, so nothing could kill them. Which was why Solas had to lock them up alive - because it was too difficult to get to the horcrux dragons. If true, five of them are no longer completely immortal, but two of them are, unless their Old God dragons are dug out. Also, if a piece of the Evanuris' spirit is in each of the Old Gods, they might have been able to speak through them, calling upon the Magisters to try and break them out of their prison in the Fade.

 

I have to wonder if Solas got upset about the Old Gods being killed, because it weakened some part of his prison, or because the Old Gods distract the darkspawn, or because there's the possibility that part of the Evanuris could get free of the Archdemon once it is killed and reform outside of the Fade before he is ready for it.

[Joe25]

Winter is coming. Time to buy a new Solas cosplay. And by that, I mean a pair of long john's and a thermal vest.   

[Cee]

Winter is coming. Time to buy a new Solas cosplay. And by that, I mean a pair of long john's and a thermal vest.   

 

Don't forget the modesty flaps and foot wraps.

[Ghost Gal]

But that doesn't mean you can't love her, or that she can't love your Hawke. They just disagree on key issues.

 

It's arguable, of course, that if they're so opposed on such fundamental issues, then maybe they shouldn't even enter a romance in the first place. 

 

You're right, they shouldn't.

 

I fundamentally believe it's wrong to hurt animals, and I once dated someone who fundamentally didn't agree, and liked to tell me about how she used to glue birds' feet to branches so they starved to death, or put mice in little boxes with rocks and broken glass and shook it till it was crushed to death. We still "loved" each other, so does that cancel out disagreeing on a fundamental issue?

 

I did not see it as Hawke being emotionally abusive, I saw it as people who are attracted to each other but have fundamental disagreements over something. It was interesting.

 

Again, I think both views are right.

 

Of course you didn't see it that way, because you were the Hawke in that relationship. If you were the Merrill in that relationship where the Hawke character treated your character the exact same way, I wonder how you'd feel?

 

Why should conflict always arise from the outside? Why can't it come from characters fundamentally disagreeing with one another? Why should anger, misery, tears, and yelling be shamefully hidden away when they can and do happen. Sometimes two people are just wrong for each other, I think it's dangerous for fiction to just create these perfect situations where no one would go for the wrong person ever.

 

I never said conflict should be "shamefully hidden away" or that fictional relationships should always "create these perfect situations where no one would go for the wrong person ever." Obviously I don't think that since I'm here instead of the Cullen thread, and I'm still an avid Solavellan fan despite all the problems and conflicts they have (and have I ever denied that they had problems? Have I ever insisted that they were "perfect" or "without flaw/conflict"?), so please stop putting words in my mouth.

 

I simply said I don't believe in glorifying emotional abuse and treating such obviously, fundamentally toxic and destructive ("from the inside") relationships as acceptable, and act like "love" itself is enough to overcome "disagreeing on fundamental issues," when in reality it doesn't work like that. The thing about toxic love is, the "love" doesn't cancel out the toxicity, and it will poison you from the inside.

 

 

But you know what? Fine. Keep misconstruing my argument and putting words in my mouth to defend glorified abuse, I can't take it right now.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Don't forget the modesty flaps and foot wraps.

 

Though you may wish to actually wear boots  Us tiny gremlins are still susceptible to frostbite.

[figment_]

Yeah but again the Chant twists things to fit into their religion. You can't trust it.  

 

And they said the blight stemmed from that. it didn't. we know from the game the blight predated tevinter. the magisters. it's possibly older than the elvhen empire.  i think a fair interpretation of it, is that it's a naturally occurring disease that afflicts  titans. 

I agree that it must be taken with "a grain of salt"...but I think there might be some truth in it, meaning that (the info from the Chant) it most likely refers to the Forgotten Ones (Possibly the Old Gods) rather than the Pantheon. My view is that the Pantheon (sealed in the Fade) + the Forgotten Ones (sealed in the Void)=The Evanuris.

 

Also, the legends of the Dread Wolf state that he sealed the Forgotten Ones in the Void...

 

I'll reply later or edit to include something re: thoughts on the blight...

 

As an aside, the very first thing that I thought when seeing that mural was the story of Elgar'nan (Eldest of the Sun) casting down and imprisoning his father, the Sun (The Maker?) in the Void. What if he never actually let him out? Could this explain the Maker's absence?!?!

 

TOP:

Spoiler

[dawnstone]

That feel when you see a pretty gifset with Solas, but the creator of it has terrible grammar.

Spoiler

[Sable Rhapsody]

I simply said I don't believe in glorifying emotional abuse and treating such obviously, fundamentally toxic and destructive ("from the inside") relationships as acceptable, and act like "love" itself is enough to overcome "disagreeing on fundamental issues," when in reality it doesn't work like that. The thing about toxic love is, the "love" doesn't cancel out the toxicity, and it will poison you from the inside.

 

But you know what? Fine. Keep misconstruing my argument and putting words in my mouth to defend glorified abuse, I can't take it right now.

 

I don't think DA2 ever treated anything as "acceptable," and I don't think any of us are either.  

 

The game certainly doesn't try to excuse what a mess Anders becomes.  It doesn't place value judgments on the mages or templars or whatever you do with your companions, even for some of the really awful choices.  It's just there, and it's up to you to decide what's acceptable, and what isn't.

[Sable Rhapsody]

That feel when you see a pretty gifset with Solas, but the creator of it has terrible grammar.

Spoiler

 

 

EDIT: Y'all can't see this, but there's a little gremlin who lives in my head.  He's a chibi version of my 10th grade English teacher, and he's throwing a real stinker of a temper tantrum

[maia0407]

You're right, they shouldn't.
 
I fundamentally believe it's wrong to hurt animals, and I once dated someone who fundamentally didn't agree, and liked to tell me about how she used to glue birds' feet to branches so they starved to death, or put mice in little boxes with rocks and broken glass and shook it till it was crushed to death. We still "loved" each other, so does that cancel out disagreeing on a fundamental issue?
 

 
Of course you didn't see it that way, because you were the Hawke in that relationship. If you were the Merrill in that relationship where the Hawke character treated your character the exact same way, I wonder how you'd feel?
 

 
I never said conflict should be "shamefully hidden away" or that fictional relationships should always "create these perfect situations where no one would go for the wrong person ever." Obviously I don't think that since I'm here instead of the Cullen thread, and I'm still an avid Solavellan fan despite all the problems and conflicts they have (and have I ever denied that they had problems? Have I ever insisted that they were "perfect" or "without flaw/conflict"?), so please stop putting words in my mouth.
 
I simply said I don't believe in glorifying emotional abuse and treating such obviously, fundamentally toxic and destructive ("from the inside") relationships as acceptable, and act like "love" itself is enough to overcome "disagreeing on fundamental issues," when in reality it doesn't work like that. The thing about toxic love is, the "love" doesn't cancel out the toxicity, and it will poison you from the inside.
 
 
But you know what? Fine. Keep misconstruing my argument and putting words in my mouth to defend glorified abuse, I can't take it right now.

Are you okay? Sounds like this discussion has taken you back to some dark places. I know it can be tough to relive abuse. Sending good thoughts your way and hope you feel better.

[_Lucinia]

I've done rivalmances with Merrill, Anders, and Fenris.  I certainly didn't play my Hawke as toxic or emotionally abusive.  It was as simple as being critical of using blood magic, challenging Anders' viewpoint, or wanting to help the mage underground.  If you choose to play your Hawke as a d*ck that's one thing.  I think it's really unfair to think that every single outcome of a rivalmance comes from a place of being toxic and abusive.  I understand that sometimes things in video games can feel a little to close to home, or trigger some bad memories.  Anything folks in this thread say comes from a place of understanding and care.  No one would ever advocate for unhealthy relationships to be okay.  It's not twisting words if someone else played their Hawke different, or they have a viewpoint on it that differs.

[BoscoBread]

I agree that it must be taken with "a grain of salt"...but I think there might be some truth in it, meaning that (the info from the Chant) it most likely refers to the Forgotten Ones (Possibly the Old Gods) rather than the Pantheon. My view is that the Pantheon (sealed in the Fade) + the Forgotten Ones (sealed in the Void)=The Evanuris.

 

Also, the legends of the Dread Wolf state that he sealed the Forgotten Ones in the Void...

 

I'll reply later or edit to include something re: thoughts on the blight...

 

As an aside, the very first thing that I thought when seeing that mural was the story of Elgar'nan (Eldest of the Sun) casting down and imprisoning his father, the Sun (The Maker?) in the Void. What if he never actually let him out? Could this explain the Maker's absence?!?!

The thing with the Maker - the devs have been very adamant that they will never reveal if he/she/it is real.  They wanted to keep it vague because they want to tell a different story about faith with the Andrastian religion. And I don't think that was a lead or a lie.  

 

I think there is a grain of truth in the legends but this game has hammered the idea that history twists the truth to the point where it's almost unrecognizable.  

[BoscoBread]

I don't think DA2 ever treated anything as "acceptable," and I don't think any of us are either.  

 

The game certainly doesn't try to excuse what a mess Anders becomes.  It doesn't place value judgments on the mages or templars or whatever you do with your companions, even for some of the really awful choices.  It's just there, and it's up to you to decide what's acceptable, and what isn't.

Yeah. I can get not wanting to do it.  I thought some of them were a mess. Anders romance in general is too much for me to even do anymore.  It's not a jibe at anyone that likes it.  I get why.  And I see where others are like 'no i don't view him that way' and that's totally cool. 

 

We've talked before about our love of playing bad in games, Sable. It can be cathartic, fun, and you can see a side to the characters and the story when you're being ruthless, self-serving, or just pragmatic to the point of cruel which is why I think it's important that these games have choices like this.  And I did not think any was undermining someone's disgust in the bad options either.   

[Sable Rhapsody]

The thing with the Maker - the devs have been very adamant that they will never reveal if he/she/it is real.  They wanted to keep it vague because they want to tell a different story about faith with the Andrastian religion. And I don't think that was a lead or a lie.  

 

I think there is a grain of truth in the legends but this game has hammered the idea that history twists the truth to the point where it's almost unrecognizable.  

 

The chronology doesn't line up between the Chant of Light and what Solas says about the raising of the Veil.  But a lot of the themes line up in the Canticle of Threnodies, especially if you buy the theory about the Evanuris being the Old Gods of Tevinter.