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[dragondreamer]

 

 

 

It's the big black ball with red eyes and a sun symbol in the middle. And it makes me think that's our real big baddie.

 

 

Yup, I think we're on the same page.  It makes me wonder if the "Maker"/"Sun" is actually somewhere in the Void.  Or rather, beyond it.  (Justice once spoke of a place beyond even the Fade.)  When Solas does those layered spheres, I get the sense that he's presenting a simplified image of whatever cosmology the elves were aware of.  The Void is blackness, it's nothingness.  Red is Blight, which comes from the Void.  The Sun being smack dab in the center is fascinating.  The Sun is the symbol of the Maker in Andrastianism, but to the elves, it was whatever it was that Elgar'nan overthrew at the dawn of time.  Whether it's actually "bad" or not, may be beyond us to say.

[Elessara]

He seems pretty lost if you just let him go free. I think being a real Warden gives him purpose. He is still better than before, but not as truly happy.

 

 

Lost?  Not really.  If you let him go free, he tracks down what remains of his former soldiers and tries to apologize.  He admits this didn't make things right but that he had to try.  Then after Trespasser he goes around and looks for those who are at their lowest and shows them that redemption is possible and you can still become a good person, that it's not too late.

 

I rather like that.

 

Edit to add:  And as Uirebhiril said, he does it as Thom Rainier, not Blackwall,  He's doing it because he *wants* to not because he thinks he should.

[NeverlandHunter]

<snip>

 

 

 

Not bad. I think he lets himself suffer too much for 1 crime that haunts him more than most do for many crimes on a regular basis. Shows he's got a heart and deserves a chance.

 

Well that one crime did cause the death of children, but yeah, his guilt proves that he truly regrets what he did.

[GoldenGail3]

Well that one crime did cause the death of children, but yeah, his guilt proves that he truly regrets what he did.

I always gave Blackwall to the Grey Wardens, i felt like he needed to meet my Cousland (his Warden Commander is the HOF, how ironic). Whom be very cheeky towards. I think that Solas was being a bit of hypocrite lecturing Blackwall on his false identity while he himself was lying about his identity to the Inquisitor on a daily bases. Yes, i realize it was half-truths, but he did lie about his identity just like Blackwall did. 

[FernRain]

Yup, I think we're on the same page.  It makes me wonder if the "Maker"/"Sun" is actually somewhere in the Void.  Or rather, beyond it.  (Justice once spoke of a place beyond even the Fade.)  When Solas does those layered spheres, I get the sense that he's presenting a simplified image of whatever cosmology the elves were aware of.  The Void is blackness, it's nothingness.  Red is Blight, which comes from the Void.  The Sun being smack dab in the center is fascinating.  The Sun is the symbol of the Maker in Andrastianism, but to the elves, it was whatever it was that Elgar'nan overthrew at the dawn of time.  Whether it's actually "bad" or not, may be beyond us to say.

 

I mean.. I'm going to go full tin-hat here. But, the sun isn't the blight somehow is it?

 

If it became blighted after Elgar'nan threw it into the void It would certainly be chaotic. In some ancient elven glyphs for the temple of Dirthamen quest we get "a hawk and a hare chasing the sun", the hawk and hare represent Andruil and she supposedly ended up with the blight after hanging around the void. It would explain why this world would fall (though the term is burn in the chaos) if the veil was pulled down.

 

I don't know.. I'll drop this in the lore thread. I've quoted you there dragondreamer, if you wanna join .

[dragondreamer]

Oh I would love to tell the Chantry this! LOL

 

I was thinking it was this at first:

 

http://dragonage.wik...t_Elven_Writing

 

Yeah, this may not be unrelated.  My first impression of the text was that it might be some representation of Elgar'nan (scary eldritch dude ), but it could also imply what comes later as a result of those events.  If the one being judged isn't Solas, it may be one of the Forgotten Ones.  And the Forgotten Ones appear to have made the Void and the Blight their thing.

 

Spoiler

We also have this image of a dragon with red vallaslin, which may represent the judged figure in forbidden dragon form.

[Brass_Buckles]

Spirit Cole was my guide in that DLC. Ah yes! I noticed that too! The floor is like Mythal's temple and when you get the primers, you are not in a thaig at all. You have both her and Fen'Harel surrounding you during that journey and after I blew everything up, I went back to that room and all the coffins were submerged now.

Oh man that's sad. Survive sleeping thousands of years against all odds, only to drown while dreaming, never again to wander the world of the waking and aware...

[dragondreamer]

I mean.. I'm going to go full tin-hat here. But, the sun isn't the blight somehow is it?

 

If it became blighted after Elgar'nan threw it into the void It would certainly be chaotic. In some ancient elven glyphs for the temple of Dirthamen quest we get "a hawk and a hare chasing the sun", the hawk and hare represent Andruil and she supposedly ended up with the blight after hanging around the void. It would explain why this world would fall (though the term is burn in the chaos) if the veil was pulled down.

 

I don't know.. I'll drop this in the lore thread. I've quoted you there Dragon, if you wanna join .

 

Now the Chantry would *really* love this.  And it really throws the Black City issue in a new perspective.  Yikes.

 

I...  I'll look.  I find some of the heavy lore threads a bit daunting, tbh. 

[Jaderail]

* pops in *

I was wondering, for all those lucky enough not to be like me and be stuck with an Xbox 360 game, how did your Quizzes (Lavellan and others) respond when they caught up with Solas in Trespasser? (angry, sad,i.e)

 

*pops out* 

 

I picked the first angry option, the one that makes Lavellan say something like "I would have had you trust me!" cause I love that sad puppy face Solas gives her after she says it, like he was thinking "maybe I should have". The rest I picked the sympathetic options as I do actually sympathize with him.

[FernRain]

Now the Chantry would *really* love this.  And it really throws the Black City issue in a new perspective.  Yikes.

 

I...  I'll look.  I find some of the heavy lore threads a bit daunting, tbh. 

 

Just skip to the last page .

[Jayla]

Also interesting to note:

 

Blackwall "A Monster"

 

Solas "I am not a monster"

 

That alone makes me say Thom is by far the one who did not deserve to be lectured, though we couldn't do that to Solas in Trespassser sadly.

 

Solas does also backtrack at a later banter and apologises to him, instead sympathising with him. Also remember Thom's motivations were purely selfish, for his own gain. Solas doesn't believe what he's doing is of any gain to himself, he doesn't expect to live to reap the benefits.

 

Not saying Solas is justified to have a pop at Blackwall, but their situations are different.

[Uirebhiril]

That alone makes me say Thom is by far the one who did not deserve to be lectured, though we couldn't do that to Solas in Trespassser sadly.

 

Thom needed an epic b*tch-slap to get over himself and stop hiding behind another man's glory so he could play at being noble and good himself. He did exactly that by the end of Trespasser for me, and it was only then I could see him as being redeemed. Not because he was helping others. Not even because he gave up on the self loathing and personal torture he inflicted on himself. In fact, it was that self loathing and torture that annoyed me. He wasn't doing it because he felt that bad about the whole thing. Certainly he regretted killing kids. But even the self-hate was part of "I SHOULD be doing this/feeling this way to make myself into a good and noble image." It wasn't real. He wasn't real, either as Thom or as Blackwall. He was just the barest echo of an ideal that he had no true concept of, try as he might to fulfill it.

 

He really was an interesting character, all things considered.

[midnight tea]

I always gave Blackwall to the Grey Wardens, i felt like he needed to meet my Cousland (his Warden Commander is the HOF, how ironic). Whom be very cheeky towards. I think that Solas was being a bit of hypocrite lecturing Blackwall on his false identity while he himself was lying about his identity to the Inquisitor on a daily bases. Yes, i realize it was half-truths, but he did lie about his identity just like Blackwall did. 

 

That's the thing... he wasn't lying about his identity in a way Blackwall does. Solas is his actual name. He's an actual Fade nerd.

 

He also directly addressed his major grievance he had with Blackwall in banter - it wasn't the false identity, it wasn't even that he's made a heavy sacrifice in times of war, as sometimes those are inevitable - it was the fact that Rainier did all that for money and status; and when he tried to atone, he took a mantle of another, in a way never really owing up for what he did (until Inquisitor gave him a chance to actually do that).

 

Also - isn't Warden established in canon to be far away from any other Warden, searching for the cure for the Calling?

[drosophila]

I mean.. I'm going to go full tin-hat here. 

 

You reminded me of this song:

 

 

Dedicated to all the theory crafters. I enjoy reading

[NeverlandHunter]

Yes but Celene can burn an Alienage for politics and still sleep at night. This guy killed 1 family by accident and has tortured himself every day and wanted to die for his crime. I'm not a cold person but his crime is so small compared to what Corypheus did, what people in Orlais do, and I feel his self-loathing was so overpowering that it nearly consumed him with only the thought of death before I hauled his butt out of jail and showed him another path.

Yeah, but it's huuuuggggeeee compared to what normal people do. In my more adventurous days I played lookout for a friend while she was stealing (against my will I was just there and she wouldn't stop) and I felt awful about it. That's normal, people should feel bad for for doing bad things. Celene and Corypheus are not the standards to which Blackwall should be set.

 

What Rainer did was disgusting, the fact that other people do worst things does not make it better, the fact that he's honest to goodness repentant about it does.

 

I always gave Blackwall to the Grey Wardens, i felt like he needed to meet my Cousland (his Warden Commander is the HOF, how ironic). Whom be very cheeky towards. I think that Solas was being a bit of hypocrite lecturing Blackwall on his false identity while he himself was lying about his identity to the Inquisitor on a daily bases. Yes, i realize it was half-truths, but he did lie about his identity just like Blackwall did. 

He was being a hypocrite, but I think he realized he was being one, so at least there's that.

[Uirebhiril]

That's the thing. Solas doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and that makes him worse than Thom. How we are going to redeem him God only knows, but I do hope it's an option.

 

I'll argue that point. Solas is very well aware that what he is doing is not right. He just feels he has no choice, and if compulsion theories are right he really doesn't. He'll be the first to tell you what he's doing isn't good, and is also why he doesn't let you join him. He is not at all hiding away from the truth and reality of what he is planning to do. It's one reason I can respect him as a character even as I want to smack him for the grim and fatalistic stuff. If you're going to do something, you own it and don't make excuses. Don't hide from it. Whatever else the idiot is doing, he is not doing that.

 

It's also one big reason the idea he's under a geas or otherwise compelled to what he is doing makes me feel a bit... ehhh. It's like an easy out for him, but I trust Weekes and the other writers enough to not make it cheap if it is the case.

[GoldenGail3]

That's the thing... he wasn't lying about his identity in a way Blackwall does. Solas is his actual name. He's an actual Fade nerd.
 
He also directly addressed his major grievance he had with Blackwall in banter - it wasn't the false identity, it wasn't even that he's made a heavy sacrifice in times of war, as sometimes those are inevitable - it was the fact that Rainier did all that for money and status; and when he tried to atone, he took a mantle of another, in a way never really owing up for what he did (until Inquisitor gave him a chance to actually do that).
 
Also - isn't Warden established in canon to be far away from any other Warden, searching for the cure for the Calling?

Leliana has her Warden back during Trepasser, so I assume their back now.

[Jayla]

That's the thing. Solas doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and that makes him worse than Thom. How we are going to redeem him God only knows, but I do hope it's an option.

 

Maybe I need to look at Trespasser again, but the indication I got from Solas is that he knows what he's doing is wrong, that he deserves full punishment for what he's already done and what he's going to do, but - for whatever reason - he believes this is something he must do. You're right, how we go about redeeming him in a meaningful way is something I have absolutely no idea how they'll pull it off, but I hope we get to. x)

 

Thom needed an epic b*tch-slap to get over himself and stop hiding behind another man's glory so he could play at being noble and good himself. He did exactly that by the end of Trespasser for me, and it was only then I could see him as being redeemed. Not because he was helping others. Not even because he gave up on the self loathing and personal torture he inflicted on himself. In fact, it was that self loathing and torture that annoyed me. He wasn't doing it because he felt that bad about the whole thing. Certainly he regretted killing kids. But even the self-hate was part of "I SHOULD be doing this/feeling this way to make myself into a good and noble image." It wasn't real. He wasn't real, either as Thom or as Blackwall. He was just the barest echo of an ideal that he had no true concept of, try as he might to fulfill it.

 

He really was an interesting character, all things considered.

 

This, right here, this is what I don't like about Blackwall! Thank you for putting it into words! I know too many people who parrot around ideals and images without really knowing what they're really talking about, and it's always something that makes my first instinct be to leave him behind in his cell. Even when he handed himself in, I never felt it was because he wanted to do, but something he felt he should do.

 

And it's what I loved about seeing him in my latest PT after I'd given him to the Wardens, and makes me feel guilty about all the times I'd left him to rot in others. I loved that he went back to his real name and seemed to have accepted what he wanted to do in life. I'm considering going with a pardon on my next PT, I'm interested to see where that takes him. Great character.

[drosophila]

He'll be the first to tell you what he's doing isn't good, and is also why he doesn't let you join him. He is not at all hiding away from the truth and reality of what he is planning to do. It's one reason I can respect him as a character even as I want to smack him for the grim and fatalistic stuff. If you're going to do something, you own it and don't make excuses. Don't hide from it. Whatever else the idiot is doing, he is not doing that.

 

So much this.

 

It's also one big reason the idea he's under a geas or otherwise compelled to what he is doing makes me feel a bit... ehhh. It's like an easy out for him, but I trust Weekes and the other writers enough to not make it cheap if it is the case.

 

I prefer if he's not under geas.

 

But if he is, one thing that would make it less cheap is that he doesn't seem to realize it. He claims he is no agent but his own. He tells you if you drink that everything you do whether you know it or not would be for Mythal.

 

He was a rebel and a freedom fighter. Everything he did, he did it for the freedom of his people. And in the end it turns out he himself was never truly free. That's just tragic.