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[Cee]

 

I think this is calculated targeting of a particular group on the part of the qunari rather than any inherent susceptibility on the part of the elves.  If they were more impressionable as a race, I'd think their assimilation into human society would happen more easily.  The Dalish want nothing to do with humans, and even city elves generally prefer their own kind and look down on elves who try to assimilate.  In Trespasser, we learn how the qunari think about war and conquest from the Viddasala.  They don't think of the "workers," the common people, as their enemies.  Only their leaders.  Elves overwhelmingly fall into the worker category, and they make fantastic spies.

 

This also makes me think back to Solas at the Winter Palace commenting about how people don't notice the elven servants and how they have a society all their own. I mean, I did, and my Lavellan would have paid attention. I took it for its surface meaning as social commentary at the time (and I do think there was sincerity there even in hindsight - we know he cares), but now that we have the information that he seeded the Inquisition with elven spies, there's more meaning there.

[Sable Rhapsody]

It's as if they just forgot about him in those 2 years even though they worked with him, or he kept his mouth shut, hiding it well and then finally broke when it was over.

 

Samson wasn't able to hide his symptoms.  It wasn't the main reason, but it contributed from his expulsion from the Order.  And the symptoms sound severe enough where hiding them seems implausible: memory loss, paranoia, obsession, shaking hands, forgetfulness...Cullen is the Inquisition's general.  It's a gradual process from constant exposure, not something that turns up all of a sudden in a psychotic break.  Someone should have noticed.

 

 

This also makes me think back to Solas at the Winter Palace commenting about how people don't notice the elven servants and how they have a society all their own. I mean, I did, and my Lavellan would have paid attention. I took it for its surface meaning as social commentary at the time (and I do think there was sincerity there even in hindsight - we know he cares), but now that we have the information that he seeded the Inquisition with elven spies, there's more meaning there.

 

He probably had spies of his own at Halamshiral.  Not embedded in the Inquisition, elven servants.  Maybe even embedded in Briala's people.  That might be how he was able to regain access to the eluvian network and override Briala's control.

[Cee]

 He probably had spies of his own at Halamshiral.  Not embedded in the Inquisition, elven servants.  Maybe even embedded in Briala's people.  That might be how he was able to regain access to the eluvian network and override Briala's control.

 

That's what I was thinking. And there are some theories about that as well, given the timing.

[meersalz]

He doesn't really have any good words about anybody, really. He calls people brutish and petty and I don't really know what he says about the dwarves, though he did say to Varric something about dwarves being pretty much zombie-like ;P He seems to have something of a slightly better opinion of the Dalish for being able to raise someone among them 'with the spirit like Quizzy', but he voiced his full opinion about them earlier in the game with elf Inquisitors anyway.

 

So while I think his dislike towards Qunari may be deepened by what he knows about them (how they were created and stuff?) or because of the Qun philosophy itself, which doesn't teach most Qunari how to be a fully-realized person (which is why many Tal-Vashoth turn to savage monsters, as he explained to Bull) I don't think they're that much more gremlin'y than others.

 

... Also, did anybody found it curious that elves seem to be veeeery susceptible to the Qun? In fact, I kind of get the feeling that in general they may be a bit more impressionable than others - maybe it's a legacy of them being somewhat closer to spirits than others, or maybe it's a legacy of rules of the Evanuris (well, most of them were slaves, so...) and the way they ruled them still holds some sort of tangible sway over them or how susceptible to certain influences they can be?

 

Solas loves spirits and magic - and both are surpressed and feared by the Qun. So I think the Qunari have the shortest stick with him.

 

The city elves are cut from their history and culture with no bright outlook for the future. This makes them much susceptable to any manipulation, be it the Qun or Solas' call to arms.

[Cee]

Remember the hint he gives us about listening to the servants? I bet some of them were his.

 

Yeah, that's what I was referring to a few posts up.

[Cee]

Wow I missed that! So many posts at once made me miss a few. 

 

It happens in here, especially lately with how busy it has been. I always come in for the first time of the day and start quoting like 4 pages back.

[S.W.]

Hm, it seems we have a bit of a contradiction.

 

On the one hand Solas says to Bull than the Qun teaches the Qunari they are inherently savage, and he implies that the behaviour of violent Tal-Vashoth is culturally determined.

 

On the other hand, Solas says to Adaar that the Qunari are inherently savage and it's actually the Qun which prevents them from becoming savage. So here he holds a believe that their nature is purely biologically determined, essentialist, etc. Which is usually, IRL, a big red flashing warning sign saying 'racism, do not go here', although I suppose it makes a tiny bit more sense when you have four different species who count as people. Didn't stop my Adaar from being quietly offended and dumping Solas as a friend ASAP because that is rude.

 

I'd really, really prefer it to be the former - culturally determined - and not the latter. Beliefs, philosophies, opinions, are ultimately choices, even if you're pressured into thinking in a certain way by upbringing, peers, family, etc. - one is free to choose them, or at least change your mind after being forced to think a certain way from childhood. I would rather someone berate someone for their bad choices than for being human (or qunari, in this case). And if the qunari aren't inherently savage - which they clearly aren't, I mean, even the seemingly incorrigible Sten, in the very short period we knew him in Origins, softened and changed his views, Leliana catches him picking flowers, he has a weakness for cookies, he terrifies Morrigan by flirting back with her, to the extent he was sent to the re-educators, they have as much scope to change under different cultural settings as the rest of us - then they have potential to become people for Solas. Which I'd like, because the qunari are actually probably my favourite race to play (and I would have chosen to play a qunari mage were it not for how elf-centric DA:I is ).

 

Also, I think 'inherently savage race' is just such poor writing, especially given that BioWare have written such a nuanced and interesting game in terms of how groups of different socioeconmic backgrounds clash and conflict.

 

... Also, did anybody found it curious that elves seem to be veeeery susceptible to the Qun? In fact, I kind of get the feeling that in general they may be a bit more impressionable than others - maybe it's a legacy of them being somewhat closer to spirits than others, or maybe it's a legacy of rules of the Evanuris (well, most of them were slaves, so...) and the way they ruled them still holds some sort of tangible sway over them or how susceptible to certain influences they can be?

 

Sable touched on this, saying that it's targeted - which I agree. But I also think given that most elves live in quite desolate conditions, in poverty, long abandoned by their own gods and frowned upon by the chantry, often leading unfortunate lives with little purpose or security or certainty, the Qun has more appeal to them than a rich human lord who already is certain and secure in his wealth.

[drosophila]

It was insane on the day the final DLC came out. I was lurking and would refresh the page and it was already on another page!

But yes I agree. On my recent PT I took Solas everywhere, on every quest and side quest. He really showed his hand without knowing it, and when I loaded up Trespasser I felt like all the servants were watching me. Harlequins be damned. They unnerved me the least!

Biggest betrayal to me is still that Solas had spies in the Inquisition for who knows how long. Somehow him ending the world doesn't feel as bad as that. I'm still not over the spies.

[Cee]

Biggest betrayal to me is still that Solas had spies in the Inquisition for who knows how long. Somehow him ending the world doesn't feel as bad as that. I'm still not over the spies.

 

In a way, I like to think the spies were also looking out for an Inquisitor he loves or is friends with. Of course they're serving Solas' agenda and making sure he can't be found, but if the qunari plot hadn't happened, I still think he would've saved you somehow.

[Nightspirit]

Biggest betrayal to me is still that Solas had spies in the Inquisition for who knows how long. Somehow him ending the world doesn't feel as bad as that. I'm still not over the spies.

 

Also,

Solas: "The elven guard, who led you to the qunari body, who intercepted the servant with the gaatlok barrel? Mine."

Lavellan: *jealousy lvl 100*

I admit I was a tiny bit jealous.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I'd really, really prefer it to be the former - culturally determined - and not the latter. Beliefs, philosophies, opinions, are ultimately choices, even if you're pressured into thinking in a certain way by upbringing, peers, family, etc. - one is free to choose them, or at least change your mind after being forced to think a certain way from childhood. I would rather someone berate someone for their bad choices than for being human (or qunari, in this case). And if the qunari aren't inherently savage - which they clearly aren't, I mean, even the seemingly incorrigible Sten, in the very short period we knew him in Origins, softened and changed his views, Leliana catches him picking flowers, he has a weakness for cookies, he terrifies Morrigan by flirting back with her, to the extent he was sent to the re-educators, they have as much scope to change under different cultural settings as the rest of us - then they have potential to become people for Solas. Which I'd like, because the qunari are actually probably my favourite race to play (and I would have chosen to play a qunari mage were it not for how elf-centric DA:I is ).

 

Also, I think 'inherently savage race' is just such poor writing, especially given that BioWare have written such a nuanced and interesting game in terms of how groups of different socioeconmic backgrounds clash and conflict.

 

See, I think there is something odd about the qunari biologically.  Though like you, I'd rather it be a cultural thing.

 

IRL, people abandon their original cultures all the time, through immigration or conquest or whatever.  Some of those cultures can be extremely rigid or oppressive like the Qun, yet the people who leave don't go crazy.  In fact, we'd think it extremely odd if changing your mind caused you to turn violent, and probably chalk it up to individual mental instability.

 

But Iron Bull, the Arishok, and Sten all either imply or outright say that the Tal-Vashoth who leave the Qun turn savage, almost to a man.  Bull tells Adaar that his/her parents are the exception rather than the rule.  It's true that those three characters are all military to some extent (even Bull, as Ben-Hassrath, spent a lot of time as an enforcer on Seheron).  But the way they talk about the Tal-Vashoth, their savagery upon defection seems universal, not limited to one group of former qunari.  Which strikes me as extremely odd.

 

It could just be qunari propaganda, but Bull fears becoming savage so intensely that I think it's more than that.

[drosophila]

In a way, I like to think the spies were also looking out for an Inquisitor he loves or is friends with. Of course they're serving Solas' agenda and making sure he can't be found, but if the qunari plot hadn't happened, I still think he would've saved you somehow.

I know. I also know spies does not necessarily mean that he's always plotting something all the time. A lot of the time intelligence is just a means to keep tabs on all the other players and know what's going on within the inquisition, the chantry, the court, so that you're not surprised by political developments. With a friend or romanced inquisitor, Solas was probably looking out for them just as much as purely spying.

It's not logical, it's just a gut reaction. I keep thinking of him sitting in the rotunda and how I imagined him reading and painting all the time. He was probably eavesdropping on Leliana and also working on his own network of agents.

[Cee]

Also,

Solas: "The elven guard, who led you to the qunari body, who intercepted the servant with the gaatlok barrel? Mine."

Lavellan: *jealousy lvl 1000*

I don't know about you, but I was a tiny bit jealous.

 

At that moment, I was kind of glad I took the guard into custody, even if it was just a diplomatic gesture.

[drosophila]

Also,

Solas: "The elven guard, who led you to the qunari body, who intercepted the servant with the gaatlok barrel? Mine."

Lavellan: *jealousy lvl 100*

I admit I was a tiny bit jealous.

 

Me too, and not just a tiny bit! 

[Cee]

I know. I also know spies does not necessarily mean that he's always plotting something all the time. A lot of the time intelligence is just a means to keep tabs on all the other players and know what's going on within the inquisition, the chantry, the court, so that you're not surprised by political developments. With a friend or romanced inquisitor, Solas was probably looking out for them just as much as purely spying.

It's not logical, it's just a gut reaction. I keep thinking of him sitting in the rotunda and how I imagined him reading and painting all the time. He was probably eavesdropping on Leliana and also working on his own network of agents.

 

No, it's both logical and not, I think. We found out to some degree just how far this all went, how he was working on his whole plan, how he has his own network, how he did more than nudge you in certain directions, even while it was without malice. There's a certain revulsion even as you can understand the most likely explanations. I didn't feel that way but I still didn't feel like it was exactly respectful for him to fill my organization with spies (even though he did advise us). I felt better when I thought he was just really good at eluding Leliana's scouts through eluvians or something.

[S.W.]

Also,

Solas: "The elven guard, who led you to the qunari body, who intercepted the servant with the gaatlok barrel? Mine."

Lavellan: *jealousy lvl 100*

I admit I was a tiny bit jealous.

 

Yep, that's how I felt. When did Solas become such a competent spymaster that literally nobody suspected him of doing a thing? (over 3000 years ago, yeah, I suppose he's had practice). I would have assumed Leliana would have kept a tab on all of the inner circle - surely they'd notice if he'd disappear to talk to servants or the like. I suppose the easiest way of doing it would be to place a couple of ancient elven sleeper agents who've already been awake for a while in as servants - he could give them orders in the fade, you wouldn't notice him disappearing for a moment - and let them do the recruiting business for you. Easy enough, as a dreamer ... still, that's unnervingly impressive. 

 

I felt like I had been completely outplayed and outclassed. Was a little bit embarrassing, to tell the truth.

 

That said, I never felt manipulated. I think given that my Lavellan tended to think along the same lines as him most of the time, he didn't have to do much work. Lucky for him that a curious Dalish mage ended up being caught in the crossfire at the conclave instead of a brash Templar.

[midnight tea]

See, I think there is something odd about the qunari biologically.  Though like you, I'd rather it be a cultural thing.

 

IRL, people abandon their original cultures all the time, through immigration or conquest or whatever.  Some of those cultures can be extremely rigid or oppressive like the Qun, yet the people who leave don't go crazy.  In fact, we'd think it extremely odd if changing your mind caused you to turn violent, and probably chalk it up to individual mental instability.

 

But Iron Bull, the Arishok, and Sten all either imply or outright say that the Tal-Vashoth who leave the Qun turn savage, almost to a man.  Bull tells Adaar that his/her parents are the exception rather than the rule.  It's true that those three characters are all military to some extent (even Bull, as Ben-Hassrath, spent a lot of time as an enforcer on Seheron).  But the way they talk about the Tal-Vashoth, their savagery upon defection seems universal, not limited to one group of former qunari.  Which strikes me as extremely odd.

 

It could just be qunari propaganda, but Bull fears becoming savage so intensely that I think it's more than that.

 

Nope, it's actually a variation of a very old, and very effective manipulation technique - "without us, you're nothing/a monster". It doesn't happen to as big extent as to the Qunari, but the life writes many tales of people who leave their environment and "go crazy", at least in a fashion. It gets worse, the more insular their previous environment was or the worse the "the outside world is bad and you're bad for doing this, this and that!".

 

And I recall that Solas has similar comment somewhere in the game about Circle mages and his comments about those practicing blood magic also seem similar - that mages or those taught that anything outside circle is bad, can't help themselves to not get lost, or do things they were taught to be perceived as an inherent part of straying from the right path.

 

Basically, Solas seems to strongly believe in the influence of nurture over the power of nature.

[midnight tea]

Yep, that's how I felt. When did Solas become such a competent spymaster that literally nobody suspected him of doing a thing? (over 3000 years ago, yeah, I suppose he's had practice). I would have assumed Leliana would have kept a tab on all of the inner circle - surely they'd notice if he'd disappear to talk to servants or the like. I suppose the easiest way of doing it would be to place a couple of ancient elven sleeper agents who've already been awake for a while in as servants - he could give them orders in the fade, you wouldn't notice him disappearing for a moment - and let them do the recruiting business for you. Easy enough, as a dreamer ... still, that's unnervingly impressive. 

 

I felt like I had been completely outplayed and outclassed. Was a little bit embarrassing, to tell the truth.

 

That said, I never felt manipulated. I think given that my Lavellan tended to think along the same lines as him most of the time, he didn't have to do much work. Lucky for him that a curious Dalish mage ended up being caught in the crossfire at the conclave instead of a brash Templar.

 

It's probably hard to sniff out a spymaster or spies who can communicate via dreams

 

Also - hard to stay angry on Solas for too long, considering that his spies basically saved Southern Thedas, LOL. Such a considerate antagonist! I still have to laugh about it

[almasy87]

I know you guys are all deep into your thoughts and such, but I wanted to bring to you something hilarious I found in my SS folder (i'm putting an order to the hundreds of screens taken by spamming the buttons and I found THIS )

Spoiler