Headcanon, really. The Dalish don't even know their own numbers. I think you can headcanon nearly anything reasonable. Clearly, they're a mini-society of their own so you need enough members to keep things sustainable, but beyond that, vary it as you will.
XD But what's a reasonable average? Just per clan, not all the Dalish throughout Thedas.
Hi guys! Random question, how big do you think the average Dalish clan is? Origins has them looking pretty small, but DA2s endless swarms of bloodthirsty elves has me reconsidering the size. Not that the games are very good representations of size for anything, so it's more of an opinion question.
I would think they have more than a dozen members but probably not in the hundreds, unless the clan is relatively stationary and/or capable of doing some major trading (i.e. artisan craftworks exchanged for various goods, some of which will be used to craft more such works).
A clan needs to be big enough that people can intermarry within said clan without being concerned about inbreeding (although I am sure that clan member trading happens at the Arlathvhen). It also needs to have enough members to defend itself from potential attackers, and to have people in various important survival roles (you'll need herbalists/healers, 2-3 mages for Keeper and Keeper's First and Second, hunters, guards, halla keepers, various crafters and artisans, possibly someone to manage supplies and make sure no one gets more than their share, etc.)
But it also needs to be small enough that it is mobile and capable of fleeing when necessary--unless of course, it's one of those clans that doesn't actually travel much. But that's extremely rare, especially since the Dalish seem to go where the halla take them. (I find that odd, too, because unless halla are sentient--and I kind of suspect they are but many would disagree with me--the fact that they are never told where to go suggests that they know when and where to go for the Arlathvhen. Unless I've totally misread various codex entries and they actually are directed.)
So... My guess? Somewhere between 30-100 members, with each clan different depending on what sort of terrain they travel, the specific hardships that clan faces, and the general culture of that clan. If the clan is fairly stationary, you might get over 100 people. But remember that blood is traded between clans, and some clans allow city elves, especially mages, into their clans to add fresh blood, with varying degrees of welcome. Thus even a small 30-member clan (or fewer) can remain viable, as long as there are enough teen and adult clan members available to do the work to keep everyone alive. A clan under heavy threat from humans or other possible enemies might stay small in order to avoid detection--and because clan members frequently die due to attacks. A raider clan might also remain small. A clan like Lavellan that is relatively friendly toward the humans in the territory it wanders might have more members--especially if they do a lot of trading. Also, you'd find fewer clan members in a region that has fewer potential resources for food, clothing and weaponry. You can't have more people than you can reasonably keep alive
I would think they have more than a dozen members but probably not in the hundreds, unless the clan is relatively stationary and/or capable of doing some major trading (i.e. artisan craftworks exchanged for various goods, some of which will be used to craft more such works).
A clan needs to be big enough that people can intermarry within said clan without being concerned about inbreeding (although I am sure that clan member trading happens at the Arlathvhen). It also needs to have enough members to defend itself from potential attackers, and to have people in various important survival roles (you'll need herbalists/healers, 2-3 mages for Keeper and Keeper's First and Second, hunters, guards, halla keepers, various crafters and artisans, possibly someone to manage supplies and make sure no one gets more than their share, etc.)
But it also needs to be small enough that it is mobile and capable of fleeing when necessary--unless of course, it's one of those clans that doesn't actually travel much. But that's extremely rare, especially since the Dalish seem to go where the halla take them. (I find that odd, too, because unless halla are sentient--and I kind of suspect they are but many would disagree with me--the fact that they are never told where to go suggests that they know when and where to go for the Arlathvhen. Unless I've totally misread various codex entries and they actually are directed.)
So... My guess? Somewhere between 30-100 members, with each clan different depending on what sort of terrain they travel, the specific hardships that clan faces, and the general culture of that clan. If the clan is fairly stationary, you might get over 100 people. But remember that blood is traded between clans, and some clans allow city elves, especially mages, into their clans to add fresh blood, with varying degrees of welcome. A clan under heavy threat from humans or other possible enemies might stay small in order to avoid detection--and because clan members frequently die due to attacks. A raider clan might also remain small. A clan like Lavellan that is relatively friendly toward the humans in the territory it wanders might have more members--especially if they do a lot of trading. Also, you'd find fewer clan members in a region that has fewer potential resources for food, clothing and weaponry. You can't have more people than you can reasonably keep alive.
Yeah, this sounds right.
Also just found something called Dunbar's Number and if I got the jist of what it is, it basically says that the magic number for tribal societies like what the Dalish would be is in the realm of 150. Then, the farther you go past that number the more settled and more "civilized" a society becomes with laws and regulations and such. The lower you go under the more "wild" the group can become I suppose.
Edit: Figured I could put the Wiki link if you want to check it out.
XD But what's a reasonable average? Just per clan, not all the Dalish throughout Thedas.
Ummm...30-50 average to be functional...maybe. This figure is totally unjustified...DAO had quite a few in the Brecilian Forest, but I never actually counted them... 
I would think they have more than a dozen members but probably not in the hundreds, unless the clan is relatively stationary and/or capable of doing some major trading (i.e. artisan craftworks exchanged for various goods, some of which will be used to craft more such works).
A clan needs to be big enough that people can intermarry within said clan without being concerned about inbreeding (although I am sure that clan member trading happens at the Arlathvhen). It also needs to have enough members to defend itself from potential attackers, and to have people in various important survival roles (you'll need herbalists/healers, 2-3 mages for Keeper and Keeper's First and Second, hunters, guards, halla keepers, various crafters and artisans, possibly someone to manage supplies and make sure no one gets more than their share, etc.)
But it also needs to be small enough that it is mobile and capable of fleeing when necessary--unless of course, it's one of those clans that doesn't actually travel much. But that's extremely rare, especially since the Dalish seem to go where the halla take them. (I find that odd, too, because unless halla are sentient--and I kind of suspect they are but many would disagree with me--the fact that they are never told where to go suggests that they know when and where to go for the Arlathvhen. Unless I've totally misread various codex entries and they actually are directed.)
So... My guess? Somewhere between 30-100 members, with each clan different depending on what sort of terrain they travel, the specific hardships that clan faces, and the general culture of that clan. If the clan is fairly stationary, you might get over 100 people. But remember that blood is traded between clans, and some clans allow city elves, especially mages, into their clans to add fresh blood, with varying degrees of welcome. Thus even a small 30-member clan (or fewer) can remain viable, as long as there are enough teen and adult clan members available to do the work to keep everyone alive. A clan under heavy threat from humans or other possible enemies might stay small in order to avoid detection--and because clan members frequently die due to attacks. A raider clan might also remain small. A clan like Lavellan that is relatively friendly toward the humans in the territory it wanders might have more members--especially if they do a lot of trading. Also, you'd find fewer clan members in a region that has fewer potential resources for food, clothing and weaponry. You can't have more people than you can reasonably keep alive
Thank you for the in depth answer Brass_Buckles!
Finding love must be tough for you Dalish 
even if you aren't closely related to a clans member you're still growing up with them. The trading members at Arlathven seems very likely! That must be so tough on the clan though having to separate like that. I wonder how it's decided *muses*
Yeah, this sounds right.
Also just found something called Dunbar's Number and if I got the jist of what it is, it basically says that the magic number for tribal societies like what the Dalish would be is in the realm of 150. Then, the farther you go past that number the more settled and more "civilized" a society becomes with laws and regulations and such. The lower you go under the more "wild" the group can become I suppose.
Edit: Figured I could put the Wiki link if you want to check it out.
<a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar"href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar" s_number"="">Dunbar's Number
I don't know if they'd have that many people or not. I guess 150 is reasonable but it sounds like too many if you are hiding from templars/human guards whose town you just raided. I'm taking into account that you'd also have some clan members who are, due to age, injury, or illness, not capable of fleeing very quickly. For one of the more aggressive (or more endangered) clans, they'd probably have far fewer children and elderly--in no small part because if you can't keep up, you die. And that's why I think there are clans as small as 30 members (or smaller!)--who likely don't have too many children until the Arlathvhen rolls around. For clans in more stable environments, who don't encounter too many humans or predators, 150 makes more sense--even as many as 200+. I would say that those who live close to humans but are relatively friendly with those humans probably have around 100 members... because too many Dalish hanging around would make the humans nervous. Can't let a clan like that get too large.
Other thoughts? The smaller the clan, the fewer children and elderly will exist in that clan, because you need people able to take care of the very young and the very old. So a small clan will grow slowly even if members are accepted from among the city elves or other clans. Larger clans might have more people assigned to each duty, so they will have more people who can watch over children and elderly.
Also, the smaller the clan is, the less division of labor between genders you're likely to see. If you've only got 30-50 people and 2/3 of those are capable adults, you need everyone doing every job they can. Many of those jobs will be done as personal chores. Of course I imagine the Dalish are like that in general anyway--you do the job you are best at, regardless of your gender. Men likely weave cloth, and we know that women hunt. The only exception is likely to be women changing to lighter duties when pregnant.
Also, although we know the city elves arrange marriages as a rite of passage, and that Dalish seem to choose someone quite often from among their own clan, it would not surprise me if it were also common practice for Dalish elves to arrange marriages for alliances and to prevent inbreeding at the Arlathvhen. Got an extra mage? Okay, we'll marry them to the Keeper of this other clan because they just lost their First and Second to templars and they need a new First anyway. Yes, they are almost two decades apart in age, but she can still bear children... It's probably part of the reason that the Arlathvhen exists, right alongside the desire to share stories and knowledge and catch up with people you haven't seen in ten years (kind of like a gigantic high school reunion...)
In one of my play throughs, I overheard a Nobel talking to his elven servant about forgetting he was Dalish because he didn't have a tattoo. I swear I heard this in Val Royeaux while shopping. I stopped because I hate facial tatooes and was pissed we are forced to have them (even before we learned what they meant) so I was "Wait! A Dalish doesn't have to have a tattoo why do I have to!" Plus the Nobel was really rude and my Quizzy kinda wanted to punch him. Has anyone else heard this? Obviously, we now know that servant was an ancient elf.
Anyway I think all of Solus' agents are ancient and he's not recruiting modern elves.
He may be a dalish elf that left his clan before he got his vallaslin. Or he may be an ancient elf. We can't be sure.
I'm sitting on three possibilities for the disappearing elves:
1) It's Solas, summoning ancient elves, modern elves, or both
2) It's Mythal and/or Morrigan (cf. the elf in Val Royeaux who was dreaming of a woman calling herself Mythal)
3) It's the Forgotten Ones. A clan of Elves living in the Tirashan wear crimson vallaslin and attacked humans as offerings to their gods, the Forgotten Ones. The disappearing elves are headed into a forest.
If either option 1 or 3 are correct, I have a question. Why do they need to be in one place? Solas has the eluvians which could allow his people to travel more or less freely. And he would seem to benefit from having them spread out to gather information and maintain access (his reach extending to wherever they are).
So I'm currently of the opinion that they're all headed to one place for Massive Blood Magic Time. Whether its Solas or the Forgotten Ones running that show, I don't know. Might even be both. Weefun.
So I just finished "The Dread Wolf's Heart" by Feynite and I don't think Bioware can come up with a story to beat it to be honest. I think this is going to be my canon unless the author comes up with something even better in "Looking Glass."
So, because 3 years early isn't too early at all, I'm trying to think about what I want my DA4 protagonist to be like. So now I'm curious, what were your canon characters going through the DA series? Name, race, gender, class, romance, age at the start, whatever you want. And what do you think you might want your DA4 protag, providing they're a new character, to be like? Ideal romance included!
For Me:
Kirani Surana: Elf Female: Spirit Healer/Keeper/Battlemage - 17 - Alistair
Marian Hawke: Human Female: Force Mage, default age 20ish? - Fenris
Lethari Lavellan: Elf Female: Rift Mage - 20- Solas
So, because 3 years early isn't too early at all, I'm trying to think about what I want my DA4 protagonist to be like. So now I'm curious, what were your canon characters going through the DA series? Name, race, gender, class, romance, age at the start, whatever you want. And what do you think you might want your DA4 protag, providing they're a new character, to be like? Ideal romance included!
Oooh, fun!
DA:O: Mara Cousland, female, rogue, 21 at start, Leliana, Alistair executed, hated by Wynne, besties with Morrigan...
DAII: Snarky Hawke, male, age unknown, warrior, Merrill, stupid and violent
DA:I: Neria Lavellan, ~24, rift mage, Solas, sassynice
DA4: Dunno, female, dunno, depends on origin (vint noble: mage, slave: rogue, etc.), Best Elf 
It occurs to me that protag characterization was way more evolved in Origins than DAI. I was able to get exactly the right blend of niceness, cunning, pragmatism, and backstabbing. Lavellan wasn't allowed to be sufficiently clever or ambitious. Alas.
I agree with you that he care about people, but it is his people. He wants to press reset button, and have the world burn to save a few hundred Sentinels and ancient elfs in hiding. I think he'd have better luck making a small nation from the land around his cathedral then killing millions to save less than a thousand people.
We don't know for sure that this new world will only benefit Sentinels and ancient elves in hiding. He's been "vague mysterious lone wolf" about his plans, but for all we know this new world will benefit all elves, city and Dalish, modern and ancient.
Secondly, to expand on what you said about the reset button, while I agree that he cares more about his own people, I don't think it just stops there. I think he also feels guilty about what he's done to them. After revealing his identity, every time he talks about the elves (ancient and modern) he just looks and sounds so crushed by the guilt of bringing about their cultural apocalypse and the decline of their species (and the elves are declining in numbers) that he's desperate to alleviate it. He's like those people so miserable about their lives that they tell themselves, "If I can just do this one thing, it'll fix everything." He's told himself, "If I can just restore Elvhenan, it'll be like nothing happened." And it won't, Solas.
So while I agree that he has something of a god complex (always wanting to reshape the world into one of your own design, Solas 
), and cares more about "his people" (ancient elves) more than others, I think he's also motivated by a desire to help modern elves (not just roast them to help ancient elves) and he's motivated by guilt and not just pride.
Within Tempation's The Silent Force should be called The Unofficial DAI Soundtrack. Can't stop listening to it.
This one is for Solas. Singing doesn't start until 0:50, but the lyrics are remarkably fitting, and they give me ALL TEH FEELS.
Spoiler
Yes! Yes! This one soooo much! If you read the book this song was written about the character reminds me a bit of Solas too. 
If its Solus behind the disappearances, I think it's because his/their cover's been blown and they've left for safety. As people were talking about a few days ago being paranoid that every elf in the game is an agent, imagine how the prejudiced shems of Thedas will feel. If word gets out, it will be open season on elves. Solus could think the safety of the agents was worth more than any possible information.
And we don't know that they are going to one place, only that they are leaving where they were.
Do we know if any elves are leaving from Dalish clans? It seems Best Elf infiltrated a clan at some point (he was too familiar with their ways not to have). The elf on the slide had vallaslin, didn't it.
Rereading the epilogue slide, the connection between Solas and the elves disappearing does seem to be very heavily connected. So if we assume that it is Solas, I'm still not sure on the why. Maybe he is protecting his agents (which only makes sense if they're ancient elves). Solas may well do that. But I'm not at all convinced that he's acting as Solas. If he's acting as Fen'Harel, who's willing to do anything to ensure victory and who is forcing himself to view modern people as non-real, who will execute an ancient elf and friend for deliberately failing ... well ... as I say, I'm just not convinced that he's acting out of altruistic motives rather than pragmatic ones.
Do we know if Quizzie let it out beyond her inner circle? I mean, if Quizzie made it common knowledge that the Inquisition had been infiltrated by elven servants of the Dread Wolf ... triple shame on Quizzie for being a grade A idiot. And short of Quizzie or Leliana or Harding letting that information out, how would anyone ever know?
Which is why the bit about "those who believed the Inquisitor's story about Fen'Harel" had me nearly tearing my hair out. What in the void, Quizzie? What in the void, Bioware? That was a stupid, stupid move.
Yes! Yes! This one soooo much! If you read the book this song was written about the character reminds me a bit of Solas too.
So, I wrote my first post-Trespasser paragraphs that actually feature Solas and some inner thoughts on that scene of the DLC. The feels are making for good words. Why is this easier to write than fluff? 
He would probably just sever Edmonton from the rest of the North American continent, plop it down in the middle of the Atlantic and build a huge wall around it. Can you imagine the commute?Where is Solas when you need him!?
So, I wrote my first post-Trespasser paragraphs that actually feature Solas and some inner thoughts on that scene of the DLC. The feels are making for good words. Why is this easier to write than fluff?
I'm glad you're feeling inspired tonight. My tank seems a tad low and I'm just sitting here staring at a blank screen.
I think I'm stuck because if I want to include everything I want to happen next......this would be a very long chapter. maybe too long. But dividng the two main...parts I suppose.....wouldn't make as much sense to me and one of them would need like a lot added to it to keep it from being super short......
I have no idea if that made sense....but I'm having trouble resolving it in my head. Thus...blank screen.
He would probably just sever Edmonton from the rest of the North American continent, plop it down in the middle of the Atlantic and build a huge wall around it. Can you imagine the commute?
I live in Edmonton, though. I'm not sure if becoming New Arlathan would make me happy or sad. Probably sad. They'd never finish the LRT expansion.
I'm glad you're feeling inspired tonight. My tank seems a tad low and I'm just sitting here staring at a blank screen.
I think I'm stuck because if I want to include everything I want to happen next......this would be a very long chapter. maybe too long. But dividng the two main...parts I suppose.....wouldn't make as much sense to me and one of them would need like a lot added to it to keep it from being super short......
I have no idea if that made sense....but I'm having trouble resolving it in my head. Thus...blank screen.
That makes perfect sense. The story I posted earlier was not supposed to end where it ended and was supposed to cover some more time and the beginning was set up for a different direction. I was undecided about splitting it before doing so and decided to maybe combine the original idea and another and mash them together to create the next story. I wouldn't worry about chapters being too short if they just work the way they are. I've written things that were 500 words that were effective on their own.
I was even in a fluffy mood earlier and thought about writing the fluff.
And then suddenly post-Trespasser stuff started spilling out again. And it was reactions to actual Solas and not grown up Nirwen and Nehn.
Which book is that?
It's actually a series. The first book is called Daggerspell. I don't think the series has an official name, but most call it the Deverry Cycle from what I've seen. Nevyn would be the character that is similar to Solas in some ways, at least imo. I'm having some trouble finding the last seven books.
That makes perfect sense. The story I posted earlier was not supposed to end where it ended and was supposed to cover some more time and the beginning was set up for a different direction. I was undecided about splitting it before doing so and decided to maybe combine the original idea and another and mash them together to create the next story. I wouldn't worry about chapters being too short if they just work the way they are. I've written things that were 500 words that were effective on their own.
I was even in a fluffy mood earlier and thought about writing the fluff.
And then suddenly post-Trespasser stuff started spilling out again. And it was reactions to actual Solas and not grown up Nirwen and Nehn.
Mmm.....I think I may just toss out one of the parts then. It's totally not necessary and I suppose if it is a moment I think really happened....I could always write it as a stand alone later or something.
So, because 3 years early isn't too early at all, I'm trying to think about what I want my DA4 protagonist to be like. So now I'm curious, what were your canon characters going through the DA series? Name, race, gender, class, romance, age at the start, whatever you want. And what do you think you might want your DA4 protag, providing they're a new character, to be like? Ideal romance included!
This sounds fun.
DAO: Gwen - human female - dual wield rogue - Alistair - 18
DA2: Melissa - human female - primal force mage - Fenris - 25
DAI: Evalla - elven female - rift mage - Solas - 30
DA4: If we get only one protagonist, then she will be a mage or a rogue. Now if BioWare surprises us with dual protagonist option, I am tempted to create a male character to work with Lavellan. He would probably be a rogue, because my Lavellan is a mage and I want some variety. In both cases this new hero is going to be most likely a human and mid-twenties. Now that possible romance... something different than Solas, because I don't think my heart can take two of these situations in a row.
Now all this talk about FMA made me want to search my L'Arc~en~Ciel and ポルノグラフィティ(I doubt that forum will let me write romajii version of their name) CDs.
DA4: If we get only one protagonist, then she will be a mage or a rogue. Now if BioWare surprises us with dual protagonist option, I am tempted to create a male character to work with Lavellan. He would probably be a rogue, because my Lavellan is a mage and I want some variety. In both cases this new hero is going to be most likely a human and mid-twenties. Now that possible romance... something different than Solas, because I don't think my heart can take two of these situations in a row.
This is pretty much what I'm thinking. Though if the DA4 protagonist is indeed a Tevinter native, I'm going to have a hard time not playing a mage.
I've had a fun time playing the outsider and outcast in the DA series. Mage Warden and Hawke, Tabris, Lavellan, and mage Adaar. I'm looking to mix it up a bit, so for Tevinter, I kind of want to be The Man 
The sheltered altus who actively benefits from the Tevinter system of governance, and doesn't realize how wrong it is until confronted with something truly horrible.
Retour en haut