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[Big Blackwall]

*Only* a year? It definitely seemed longer than that to me. Just like Solas having been awake for only a year before that, I feel like they're cramming too many events in too little time. And it has some implications about the Solas romance -they must've been together for only several months at best. How did things get so serious?

 

I agree, only a year definitely seems like far too little time for the events of DAI. It makes me wonder what the breakdown of time was in Haven and Skyhold respectively and which one the inquisitor was in longer.

 

I get the feeling that the inquisitor was probably in Skyhold longer because of how much the background changes during the game, but if the events in Haven are too rushed then certain aspects of the games timing make no sense, especially in the Templar play-through. If you thought the Solas romance was rushed, think about how rushed the inquisitions courtship with the nobles who accompanied them to Therinfall Redoubt must have been, the amount of convincing they needed to come along would have been nearly instantaneous, as would most of Josephine's diplomatic efforts and Leliana's half-assed intelligence. To me anything less than 2-3 years makes little sense here.

[GoldenGail3]

To add to the character age discussion from back a few pages, I've actually never had a PC that was my age or younger. They were always older! I was about 17 when DAO came out so even my 19 year old Warden was still older. My Lavellan is a good few years older than me. Maybe my DA4 protag will finally be younger than me, but that'd be a first!
 
I don't know, playing characters much different than me doesn't bother me. I try more to make up a set story/personality for them and roleplay them through the game with that personality as best I can. I don't self insert all that much, other than my preference in some of the major choices. But so far, I've never had to go against a PC's set personality to do that, even though my Hawke was kind of a douche! Maybe I'll make a bad boy character one day, but those I find I have a hard time getting all that into.
 
Has anyone ever thought about making their canon playthrough an "evil" one?

No, it's hard for me (as a Alistair romance) to have a evil playthrough. But go ask my Morrigan romance, he's ruthless. My Canon is the goodie two shoes of goodie two shoes. (:

[midnight tea]

Quoting both you and midnight tea - I'm on my phone and can't multi quote.

I guess... I've never experienced the kind of trauma that would help me bond with people. My admittedly pessimistic and sceptical opinion is that such friendships have immense value, but not the solid foundation of having known someone for a long time and being compatible with them. Once the threat that brings them together passes and everyone's back to the usual, I think they are likely to dissolve.

 

I totally get that - I think the time tests the bonds in a way other things can't... but this is in a world with no great threat or conflicts. Time for us is necessary to find out or learn things about people we usually don't have ways of finding out, in our comfy life, full of routine and interactions that are actually pretty superficial, even with people close to us.

And in times of great strife, or war or when people simply have to rely on one another in ways we don't, things can and often are tested more thoroughly.

 

Just... look at, say, Frodo and Samwise Gamgee or Merry and Pippin - they knew each other for years, and while it's obvious that they're friends, it's only through the events in Lord Of The Rings that their bonds have tightened, in a way that they probably wouldn't if things didn't happen. Their relationships have been thoroughly tested - and survived.

 

Or what about Bilbo and Gandalf? Their friendship is so strong and heart-warming! And they've bonded during a journey that took... well, I don't remember how long it took, but it couldn't be longer than a year.

 

 

Same way long-term friendships don't always last. I've had known people whom I considered really good friends (I'm an introvert, so I don't really have that many RL friends) whom I thought I knew really well, was always ready to help with stuff and could rely on - at at one point or another they just... cut ties with me. Either some RL stuff happened or they changed direction in life and they just... stopped communicating with me :/ So much for long-term friendship...

[Garnet]

yeah tight is an understatement. I didn't write the timeline, just relating what it's stated to be 

 

Puts the DA:O and DA:I romances in perspective, really - like Alistair dumping nonCousland to be King, like, okay yeah you were all in lub and stuff but you'd known him less than a year and been together realistically speaking in any meaningful serious way for all of like, a few months, so like... Same with Solas. The only romances with realistic build-up compared to the real world (for the average relationship anyway [of course there are outliers I know], and for most healthy ones) are the ones in DA2 due to the timescale.

I know it's a fantasy setting, but it is also a medieval-ish setting and things happened faster in medieval times. (I mean..shorter life span, yes? The plaaaague....) Plus think of all they went through together. The Warden and Alistair (or whoever else) defeated the blight together. There had to have been some major bonding there. And everything the Inquisitor went through with Solas made him realize not only was she a real person, but he loved her. And.. I don't know where I'm going with this but I think for them it was plenty of time for the LI and Warden/Inquisitor to fall hard for each other. 

[Solas]

I don't doubt they fell hard and fast, I'm just saying it's not the most healthy basis for a relationship and that can be seen in how they can sometimes go haha. Like for example I could see why given the context Alistair is able to be like "I love you so much and this hurts me loads and I'm so sorry [all very true] but still gonna put the kingdom of my birth in front of a woman I've been with for a few months". kinda deal

[Garnet]

I don't doubt they fell hard and fast, I'm just saying it's not the most healthy basis for a relationship and that can be seen in how they can sometimes go haha.

True enough. 

It still hurt my soul when he broke up with my Tabris. I had to go back to play through over half the game and harden him to save their relationship. I'm not crazy, Alistair my love! Now we can be together forever!

[Ellawynn]

 Which is the thing that worries me. It may take a lot of destruction before he's convinced. And that puts me in fear of the 'kill yourself to right your mistakes" ending, or similar.

I'm sorry, I just have to say that the idea that death is the best path to redemption has always sort of bothered me. It's always seemed like the easy way out.

 

Death = redemption always struck me as for the benefit of the redeemed over anyone else. They feel sorrowful and regretful and guilty - and death's such an easy, perfect way to escape from that. So they do it, because not only can it help a noble cause, it gives them a way out of dealing with their pain. But living, giving continual service and aid, coming to terms with your conscience, wouldn't that do far more good? Shouldn't living be the true path to redemption? You can give so much back that way - your death may save a few, but only a few. Your life can save so much more.

 

It bothers me that they didn't let me bring this up to Blackwall, and it'll bother me if they don't let me bring it up to Solas. For all Solas' faults, he's got so much knowledge and intelligence and passion. He could do so much good for this world if he put his mind to it. Just look at the Inquisition - even if you never took him out in your party, there are at least two points where it would've fallen apart entirely without him there to lend his knowledge and aid. Three if you count the Qunari. And he could do that again and again, save so many people, do so much good - probably far, far more than he'd ever accomplish by dying even for a noble cause. 

 

So I really, really hope BioWare's smart enough to handle him better than that. Death, even your own death, only takes from the world. Redemption should be about giving back.

 

(Also hi Solas thread I've been lurking since May and I'll probably get back to that now)

[Ghost Gal]

Ooh, are we still talking about our protagonist's various ages? 

 

All right, at the start of each game I imagine my Tabris and Surana were both 18, Hawke was 25 (various character's comments made it seem like the right age), and my Lavellan was 18. As of Trespasser, Tabris and Surana are 31, Hawke is 38 (yet she still looks like she's in her early 20's  ), and Lavellan is 21.

 

As for why so many protagonists who're 18? I don't know. Arranged marriage cultures tend to get their kids hitched younger than older (18 would be old for Medieval Jews), the Mage Warden was said to be something of a prodigy so I can't imagine the Templars wanted to wait too long to ensure such a mage was demon-proof, and Lavellan's age comes back to my theory of clans living hard lives out in the wilderness making kids grow and mature faster.

 

Plus, is it just me, or do a lot of Lavellan's romantic body language toward Solas come across as a bit... coy and girlish?

 

Spoiler

 

Doesn't it kind of look like her pose is saying, "I'm an innocent little maiden awaiting her first kiss"?

 

I can't speak for other Lavellans, but during romantic scenes I'd kind of rather think of my girl acting her age (young and smitten) than an older woman acting younger than she is. 

[rowrow]

To add to the character age discussion from back a few pages, I've actually never had a PC that was my age or younger. They were always older! I was about 17 when DAO came out so even my 19 year old Warden was still older. My Lavellan is a good few years older than me. Maybe my DA4 protag will finally be younger than me, but that'd be a first!

 

I don't know, playing characters much different than me doesn't bother me. I try more to make up a set story/personality for them and roleplay them through the game with that personality as best I can. I don't self insert all that much, other than my preference in some of the major choices. But so far, I've never had to go against a PC's set personality to do that, even though my Hawke was kind of a douche! Maybe I'll make a bad boy character one day, but those I find I have a hard time getting all that into.

 

Has anyone ever thought about making their canon playthrough an "evil" one?

 

My PCs seem to cluster around certain ages that are probably significant to me. My DA characters have all been in about 26-27. My Shepard and Revan were in their thirties. It's true that I probably wouldn't enjoy playing a character younger than 23. I feel like it limits the way I'm able to respond to the game. My characters are often very different from me but also similar enough that my emotional response isn't twisted around a set of values that I have to put a lot of effort into believing - that adds a distance that makes the game less fun. For instance, I could never play a crusted-over, super stoic or even very cynical character because it's not fun for me to experience the game like that.

 

I've started some evil characters, but I usually can't sustain them. My longest evil playthroughs are my Sith Warrior and Imperia Agent in SWTOR. I enjoyed them both but I still haven't finished their class stories...

[Illyria]

I'm sorry, I just have to say that the idea that death is the best path to redemption has always sort of bothered me. It's always seemed like the easy way out.

 

Death = redemption always struck me as for the benefit of the redeemed over anyone else. They feel sorrowful and regretful and guilty - and death's such an easy, perfect way to escape from that. So they do it, because not only can it help a noble cause, it gives them a way out of dealing with their pain. But living, giving continual service and aid back, coming to terms with your conscience, wouldn't that be worth so much more? Shouldn't  living be the true path to redemption? You can give so much back that way - your death may save a few, but only a few. Your life can save so much more.

 

It bothers me that they didn't let me bring this up to Blackwall, and it'll bother me if they don't let me bring it up to Solas. For all Solas' faults, he's got so much knowledge and intelligence and passion. He could do so much good for this world if he put his mind to it. Just look at the Inquisition - even if you never took him out in your party, there are at least two points where it would've fallen apart entirely without him there to lend his knowledge and aid. Three if you count the Qunari. And he could do that again and again, for so many people, and do so much good - probably far more than he'd ever accomplish by dying even for a noble cause. 

 

So I really, really hope BioWare's smart enough to handle him better than that. Death, even your own death, only takes from the world. Redemption should be about giving back.

 

(Also hi Solas thread I've been lurking since May and I'll probably get back to that now)

 

Wait, lethellen.  We have cookies!  Cee baked them!

[Ajna]

I'm sorry, I just have to say that the idea that death is the best path to redemption has always sort of bothered me. It's always seemed like the easy way out.

 

Death = redemption always struck me as for the benefit of the redeemed over anyone else. They feel sorrowful and regretful and guilty - and death's such an easy, perfect way to escape from that. So they do it, because not only can it help a noble cause, it gives them a way out of dealing with their pain. But living, giving continual service and aid back, coming to terms with your conscience, wouldn't that be worth so much more? Shouldn't  living be the true path to redemption? You can give so much back that way - your death may save a few, but only a few. Your life can save so much more.

 

It bothers me that they didn't let me bring this up to Blackwall, and it'll bother me if they don't let me bring it up to Solas. For all Solas' faults, he's got so much knowledge and intelligence and passion. He could do so much good for this world if he put his mind to it. Just look at the Inquisition - even if you never took him out in your party, there are at least two points where it would've fallen apart entirely without him there to lend his knowledge and aid. Three if you count the Qunari. And he could do that again and again, for so many people, and do so much good - probably far more than he'd ever accomplish by dying even for a noble cause. 

 

So I really, really hope BioWare's smart enough to handle him better than that. Death, even your own death, only takes from the world. Redemption should be about giving back.

 

(Also hi Solas thread I've been lurking since May and I'll probably get back to that now)

 

SO well said!

[RynJ]

Ooh, are we still talking about our protagonist's various ages? 

 

All right, at the start of each game I imagine my Tabris and Surana were both 18, Hawke was 25 (various character's comments made it seem like the right age), and my Lavellan was 18. As of Trespasser, Tabris and Surana are 31, Hawke is 38 (yet she still looks like she's in her early 20's  ), and Lavellan is 21.

 

As for why so many protagonists who're 18? I don't know. Arranged marriage cultures tend to get their kids hitched younger than older (18 would be old for Medieval Jews), the Mage Warden was said to be something of a prodigy so I can't imagine the Templars wanted to wait too long to ensure such a mage was demon-proof, and Lavellan's age comes back to my theory of clans living hard lives out in the wilderness making kids grow and mature faster.

 

Plus, is it just me, or do a lot of Lavellan's romantic body language toward Solas come across as a bit... coy and girlish?

 

Spoiler

 

Doesn't it kind of look like her pose is saying, "I'm an innocent little maiden awaiting her first kiss"?

 

I can't speak for other Lavellans, but during romantic scenes I'd kind of rather think of my girl acting her age (young and smitten) than an older woman acting younger than she is. 

 

Ha, I'm not sure I'd call that coy. You kind of get all up in his face in that scene, forcing him to take notice of you and practically daring him to act. Lavellan is quite "aggressive" most times in the Solas romance, in my eyes.

[Uirebhiril]

Plus, is it just me, or do a lot of Lavellan's romantic body language toward Solas come across as a bit... coy and girlish?

 

Spoiler

 

Doesn't it kind of look like her pose is saying, "I'm an innocent little maiden awaiting her first kiss"?

 

I can't speak for other Lavellans, but during romantic scenes I'd kind of rather think of my girl acting her age (young and smitten) than an older woman acting younger than she is. 

 

Not how I interpreted it. I saw it as Lavellan mimicking how Solas normally acts. Back straight, arms behind back, watching. She let him make the move, but that was resting the choice in his hands. Even when he turned away and she took his arm, it was less "let's start smooching" and more "I'm sorry, you don't have to go. We can still just talk."

 

Solas... had other ideas.

[rowrow]

I'm sorry, I just have to say that the idea that death is the best path to redemption has always sort of bothered me. It's always seemed like the easy way out.

 

Death = redemption always struck me as for the benefit of the redeemed over anyone else. They feel sorrowful and regretful and guilty - and death's such an easy, perfect way to escape from that. So they do it, because not only can it help a noble cause, it gives them a way out of dealing with their pain. But living, giving continual service and aid back, coming to terms with your conscience, wouldn't that be worth so much more? Shouldn't  living be the true path to redemption? You can give so much back that way - your death may save a few, but only a few. Your life can save so much more.

 

It bothers me that they didn't let me bring this up to Blackwall, and it'll bother me if they don't let me bring it up to Solas. For all Solas' faults, he's got so much knowledge and intelligence and passion. He could do so much good for this world if he put his mind to it. Just look at the Inquisition - even if you never took him out in your party, there are at least two points where it would've fallen apart entirely without him there to lend his knowledge and aid. Three if you count the Qunari. And he could do that again and again, for so many people, and do so much good - probably far more than he'd ever accomplish by dying even for a noble cause. 

 

So I really, really hope BioWare's smart enough to handle him better than that. Death, even your own death, only takes from the world. Redemption should be about giving back.

 

(Also hi Solas thread I've been lurking since May and I'll probably get back to that now)

 

I really agree! And with Solas, I actually don't see himself as someone who would kill himself purely out of remorse, even if he wanted to. He'd be the sort who would try to fix it ... and try, and try. If he does kill himself, it would have to be because it was ACTUALLY the best way to fix things. But even that, I feel like I've seen more than enough times in fiction. I want something better for Solas. And you're right, he could do so much good if only he'd get his head out of you-know-where.

[midnight tea]

Ha, I'm not sure I'd call that coy. You kind of get all up in his face in that scene, forcing him to take notice of you and practically daring him to act. Lavellan is quite "aggressive" most times in the Solas romance, in my eyes.

 

I got the same kind of vibe - it's Lavellan that keeps pushing and initiating... I mean, for obvious reason, given all of Solas's reservations and reasons not to be with anyone. She's the one who takes risks and decides to not give up on him, even if he does a lot himself to signal that he's interested with her.

 

And the balcony scene for me is only "coy" in a sense that she's observing him and encouraging him, perhaps to 'balance out' the scene in the Fade when she almost literally pounced on him

[Rascoth]

Not how I interpreted it. I saw it as Lavellan mimicking how Solas normally acts. Back straight, arms behind back, watching. She let him make the move, but that was resting the choice in his hands. Even when he turned away and she took his arm, it was less "let's start smooching" and more "I'm sorry, you don't have to go. We can still just talk."

 

Solas... had other ideas.

I thought the same. 

 

perhaps to 'balance out' the scene in the Fade when she almost literally pounced on him

...and I was going to add this, but it seems you beat me to it 

 

And it's funny that you all started to talk about this scene just as I was playing it  

Spoiler

 

 

Edit: I could say ^ that pic is my ToP, but I make too many screenshots. I have to use them.

Spoiler

[Uirebhiril]

I'm sorry, I just have to say that the idea that death is the best path to redemption has always sort of bothered me. It's always seemed like the easy way out.

 

I agree. I'd rather see someone actually work on understanding themselves and making amends rather than just dying and being done with it. An evil villain who dies saving children from being run over by a bus can be said to have redeemed himself, sure, but one act of mercy does not show redemption. What Thom did at the end of Trespasser in my playthrough shows a man who learned, moved on, and lived his life to help others from that point. Dying for that one soldier he'd have saved in Orlais would have been great for the soldier, but meaningless for any true redemption on his part.

[RynJ]

I agree. I'd rather see someone actually work on understanding themselves and making amends rather than just dying and being done with it. An evil villain who dies saving children from being run over by a bus can be said to have redeemed himself, sure, but one act of mercy does not show redemption. What Thom did at the end of Trespasser in my playthrough shows a man who learned, moved on, and lived his life to help others from that point. Dying for that one soldier he'd have saved in Orlais would have been great for the soldier, but meaningless for any true redemption on his part.

 

I find it lazy, personally. They apologize in a dramatic way, possibly while their loved one blubbers, and then they die doing that one last thing that helps save everyone.

 

Boooring. It's a way to "redeem" a character without actually having them grow. Which, you know, is the key to redeeming oneself. Growing and evolving as a person. You can argue that being willing to do that one big act of sacrifice shows that the character has grown but......eh, I still find it a little lazy. We already know that Solas is willing to sacrifice for the "greater good", so that isn't growing much. 

[Ellawynn]

Ha, I'm not sure I'd call that coy. You kind of get all up in his face in that scene, forcing him to take notice of you and practically daring him to act. Lavellan is quite "aggressive" most times in the Solas romance, in my eyes.

Yeah, I saw that as a challenge more than anything else. Less "Please please take me, this girlish maiden that I am, oh Dread Wolf" and more "Oh, you still think about kissing me? Yeah, well, let's see you walk the walk, son." 

Wait, lethellen.  We have cookies!  Cee baked them!

 

Oh no it's - it's free food! The only force strong enough to overcome my hatred of social interaction!

 

*nibbles a cookie*

[LilithMB]

This thread moves so fast holy moly. I dont find it hard to believe that they fell for each other fast deeply and irrevocably. First the quizzy would feel like the only color in a world of grey. She would be like an anchor for solas not to be completely lost in his mission as Fen'Harel and to have his feet touch the ground and get out of the fade, so to be distracted for a time would feel good but when it all crashes down on him again...ouch. At the same time as her feeling like a bit of home for him if she reminds him of his elves. She's a mystery. He loves a puzzle. Solas (maybe) feels things a lot more strongly than we could imagine, he throws himself at his emotions without really thinking them through. As you can see and hear with his personal mission/banter and what he is doing now. Its either 100% or could give a care for him. And to find someone that could make you question yourself when your usually so single mindedly determined?

Quizzy or how I imagine my quizzy, he's so calm and soothing and in the midst of all that mess and confusion it would be a "god send" *snicker* to have someone like Solas. Plus he's hot ok. She loves his elfy nose. And all the other things I dont need to tell you guys.

I really think that when you meet him in Trespasser is when he's totally lost to you though. Not in the bad way but like now after he's let you see his soul and your still there and want to help him its hopeless for him to ever not think about or love the inquisitor after that.

Now you know. And you didnt reject the other side of him. You are still trying to understand him. You continue to surprise him.

As a side note...I played Trespasser again last night. The way he says my love. Right in the feels, OMG, I cant.

[drosophila]

I agree. I'd rather see someone actually work on understanding themselves and making amends rather than just dying and being done with it. An evil villain who dies saving children from being run over by a bus can be said to have redeemed himself, sure, but one act of mercy does not show redemption. What Thom did at the end of Trespasser in my playthrough shows a man who learned, moved on, and lived his life to help others from that point. Dying for that one soldier he'd have saved in Orlais would have been great for the soldier, but meaningless for any true redemption on his part.

This makes me wonder: it's a total mystery to me what death means to Solas, apart from the failure to save his people. What is death to an immortal like him? He never really addresses that. If he gives up on his mission or something prevents him from completing it, what would it mean to die rather than live?

On the one hand, there's his fear of dying alone. On the other hand, he was about to do just that in future Redcliffe and seemed pretty resigned to it. So I don't know if death would represent relief or horror to him, and I have the feeling that it might be both at the same time.

[drosophila]

Oh no it's - it's free food! The only force strong enough to overcome my hatred of social interaction!

*nibbles a cookie*

Great, welcome among our special friends

[Illyria]

Great, welcome among our special friends

 

Falons before foes.

[drosophila]

Falons before foes.

We can achieve so much through the power of friendship.

[GoldenGail3]

We can achieve so much through the power of friendship.

And making people join the Dark side. We have cookies!