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[drosophila]

The new chapter of Bread Wolf is up:

 

http://archiveofouro...apters/11491993

[Eivuwan]

I am sure this has been said already, but of all the theories on how the blight came to be, I think the following is the most likely. I think the Titans were causing earthquakes so the evanuris started attacking them. Then the evanuris discovered lyrium and some of them became obsessed with its power. The Titans in self-defense started corrupting their blood changing blue lyrium to red lyrium. Later this starts to spread and infect other creatures and became the blight.

[Kadan]

Chapter seven is now posted. I'm glad I slept on it last night. One of the characters had drifted into a darker character than I intend for them. 

 

AO3

 

FF.net

[Sifr]

That's why I always preferred a rivalry with Anders.  It's far more apparent how much control he didn't actually have.

 

And makes you wonder how much of a demon Justice had become before he entered Anders meatsuit... since either he suggested the possession to begin with, or he didn't object to Anders offering to be his host, which is a far cry from how he despised all demonic behaviour in Awakening?

 

Did he even need a host anyway? It's never been clear about whether Spirits or Demons need them to exist outside of the Fade because we've seen a ton of them roaming around who don't possess anyone.

 

The best I can figure is that hosts or being bound makes it easier for creatures of the Fade to exist outside of it. As beings of pure thought from a place where thought defines reality, it's their knowledge of themselves that sustains them. Since Thedas does not operate on those rules, any demon or spirit lacking a strong sense of self might eventually lose their powers and eventually even fade away entirely.

 

It would fit with how Cole often described feeling in Asunder when he thought he was just a ghost, that it was as if he was slowly slipping away. It also fits with how after Lambert revealed his true nature as a Spirit and allowed him to regain a sense of self, he was finally able to gain full control of his powers and better tether himself to Thedas.

 

*Takes off the tinfoil hat*

 

[RoraM]

Just a thought:  if the Tevinter Imperium has existed for over 10,000 years, does that mean Solas is at least 10,000 years old?  Not that time is relevant to an immortal...

[Kadan]

And makes you wonder how much of a demon Justice had become before he entered Anders meatsuit... since either he suggested the possession to begin with, or he didn't object to Anders offering to be his host, which is a far cry from how he despised all demonic behaviour in Awakening?

 

Did he even need a host anyway? It's never been clear about whether Spirits or Demons need them to exist outside of the Fade because we've seen a ton of them roaming around who don't possess anyone.

 

The best I can figure is that hosts or being bound makes it easier for creatures of the Fade to exist outside of it. As beings of pure thought from a place where thought defines reality, it's their knowledge of themselves that sustains them. Since Thedas does not operate on those rules, any demon or spirit lacking a strong sense of self might eventually lose their powers and eventually even fade away entirely.

 

It would fit with how Cole often described feeling in Asunder when he thought he was just a ghost, that it was as if he was slowly slipping away. It also fits with how after Lambert revealed his true nature as a Spirit and allowed him to regain a sense of self, he was finally able to gain full control of his powers and better tether himself to Thedas.

 

*Takes off the tinfoil hat*

 

 

I think it has to do with how a spirit enters the world? Justice was pulled through when they defeated the witch. I don't think he realized he had another option than to inhabit a corpse. I don't think Cole realized he was crossing the veil at first. Which is why he thought he was the spirit of the boy that died. Because he lacked a purpose he felt himself fading. No one could see him except when they were hurting, and he used their pain and death to strengthen himself. He was slipping into becoming more of a demon than a spirit. Until Rhys.

 

I figure that Justice was more vengeance than justice at the end. Because justice doesn't have to be hard and final, there is room for compromise. If that was due to his experiences since crossing over, or Anders own hatred toward the Chantry, Templars and his feelings for the mages I don't know, but I doubt Ander's feelings helped him much.

[dawnstone]

Just a thought:  if the Tevinter Imperium has existed for over 10,000 years, does that mean Solas is at least 10,000 years old?  Not that time is relevant to an immortal...

He could be, but the Tevinter Imperium is only about 2000 years old - do you mean Ancient Elvhenan? The recorded history of Elvhenan goes back about 8500 years.

 

Check out this timeline ChuChu and Caddius put together: https://dl.dropboxus...e_timeline.jpg

[Kadan]

Just a thought:  if the Tevinter Imperium has existed for over 10,000 years, does that mean Solas is at least 10,000 years old?  Not that time is relevant to an immortal...

The Tevinter Imperium is only 2034 years as of 9:40 Dragon. Arlathan was founded approximately 6400 years prior (-6405 TE), so Solas could be anywhere from 8000 years old or younger.

[k_drake]

Are we hugging him to help him feel better, or to make him feel worse?  Because honestly, it's hard to tell sometimes with Solas

BOTH!  That's the beauty of it. 

[figment_]

The Tevinter Imperium is only 2034 years as of 9:40 Dragon. Arlathan was founded approximately 6400 years prior (-6405 TE), so Solas could be anywhere from 8000 years old or younger.

I just wanted to add, according to WOT, Elves first noticed "the quickening" in -2850 Ancient, so I figure the Veil was constructed approx. -2900 Ancient. 

[Kadan]

I just wanted to add, according to WOT, Elves first noticed "the quickening" in -2850 Ancient, so I figure the Veil was constructed approx. -2900 Ancient. 

I figure the veil was created in -3100 mainly because this is when humanity is recorded to arrive in Thedas. I think there is a connection between the veil and humans, of course I could be full of it.

[S.W.]

And makes you wonder how much of a demon Justice had become before he entered Anders meatsuit... since either he suggested the possession to begin with, or he didn't object to Anders offering to be his host, which is a far cry from how he despised all demonic behaviour in Awakening?

I figure that Justice was more vengeance than justice at the end. Because justice doesn't have to be hard and final, there is room for compromise. If that was due to his experiences since crossing over, or Anders own hatred toward the Chantry, Templars and his feelings for the mages I don't know, but I doubt Ander's feelings helped him much.

idk, this is perhaps more a gripe with the writing than anything else, but I honestly think Justice's characterisation wasn't done justice (heh) in DA2.
 
In DA:A we get to meet a spirit who becomes gradually more curious and more affected by the mortal world. He grows from the pure essence of justice, to embodying that ideal in a dead man, as something now to aspire to in the flesh, to a much more complicated spirit who is concerned with ideas like 'love' which were beyond his reach or interest before. He finds purpose in remaining in the physical world, and begins to adjust to addressing justice in a radically different manner. In short, Justice, despite the supposedly simplicity of his nature, is actually a very complicated character who undergoes a lot of interesting development. He is neither good or bad.
 
In DA2, a lot of those nuances... are erased. We never think of Justice as a whole person, someone who once was an end to themselves, nothing more or less. Instead, we're encouraged to see him as a parasitic influence on Anders. Justice only emerges fully during great times of stress or anxiety or panic for Anders - usually, inopportune moments, where Justice is presented with conflict and acts accordingly. Because of that context, we don't get the same sense of... fullness of his character, we only access him at those moments. We never, for instance, get to talk to Justice about what it is like living in a world so full of injustice which he is powerless to change. As a warden (of sorts), and a follower of the warden commander, Justice had a much clearer goal to envision, with greater ability to act it - i.e. killing darkspawn is not something anyone will object to, it's much easier to view the blight in terms of black and white, as just or injust. That must have been stressful and difficult for Justice as well. Anders blames himself for bringing this on him, but I don't think he appreciates the kind of autonomy Justice had before either - this was as much Justice's decision (and we never get to interrogate him, or see his side of the story). Justice is seen in terms of his negative influence on Anders, and very rarely seen on his own terms.
 
I also take issue with blaming Justice for a few other reasons.
1. Firstly, I think it shifts the blame away from Anders in a way that doesn't credit him as having the resolve, the dedication, the lack of compassion, or whatever you want to call it etc. to go through with his plan. I think that's detrimental to Anders' character, it makes him more passive in this process, and perhaps in turn means the game fails to realise one of its most interesting points: ordinary people can make, break, and change the world.
2. I think given that Anders is coded as mentally-ill during the game - Helper says he's bi-polar - I think there's often a temptation to view Anders as 'himself' and Justice as 'the illness', which alongside giving a misleading portrait given that the two aren't always separable, it also implies that Anders' own mental illness, the part of himself that wasn't truly him, is the reason he blew up the chantry. It leads to some nasty ableist conclusions - Anders was crazy, Anders was ill, Anders was sick in the head, he did this horrible thing because of it. That conclusion inaccurate: in game, Anders justifies his actions based not on desperation, or panic, but in reason: the chantry wasn't going to budge, it was logical to destroy it, if you didn't value the lives of people within it. In reality, perfectly mentally healthy people can often do despicable things, and mentally ill people are more often victims of those actions than perpetrators.
 
In short, I think had Justice been given more of a voice, more of a presence, DA2 could have been a much more nuanced and interesting game.
 

If Solas had a tattoo it would be of lavellan haha nah all jokes aside. If Solas had a tattoo I could see it being on his upper back and maybe descending into his upper arms. I think it would be a very detailed elven pattern but not like the vasllaslin, something from his time. I would love to see some of the tattoos from the time of ancient elves.

 
I could see a geometric pattern or something which was mathematically calculated as 'beautiful', perhaps involving the golden ratio somehow. also it'd be super damn hot oh my god someone please draw this.

[FernRain]

Anyone noticed that halla sound quite a lot like creepy laughing children?

 

I was just passing a herd on Exalted Plains and I heard those creepy, quiet giggles and I was like "What was that? Are there ghosts of murdered children somewhere??? ....Oh, it's just the halla *gives it a second to rotate wheels in brain* THAT'S NOT ANY BETTER!!"

 

I'm standing right here in the Exalted Plains by the halla and hear nothing. Maybe some quacking noises but no laughing.. .

[figment_]

I figure the veil was created in -3100 mainly because this is when humanity is recorded to arrive in Thedas. I think there is a connection between the veil and humans, of course I could be full of it.

I think it's undetermined currently. The 250 year gap is probably close enough to allow the birth of "rumors" about humans causing the quickening, but may be too large to have a direct correlation. In other words, I would think it strange if they just "didn't notice" the quickening for an entire 250 years...

[The Lone Shadow]

I have a new fan theory! What if Fenris the little wolf is the son of Solas the dread wolf?

 

Now, just picture if that was true. Alright Fenris, this your dad who is A) a mage, fav hobby is talking to spirits, and c) wants to get rid of the veil, which will have a massive death toll and will make the surviving elves like you mages. Also, this your stepmom Lavellan, she is a proud dalish(could also be a mage herself) that destroyed the circle and is also okay with spirits.

 

Fenris would not be amused.

 

But, seriously, I don't think Solas has or had any kids, if he did then they are probably dead.

 

Solas played them for fools, most likely.

 

We discussed this briefly when killabee was around, but people tend not to like it when their PCs get the short end of the stick.  Part of the escapism is that you are playing The Hero.  You save the day, get the boy or girl, and ride off into the sunset on a unicorn.  When that doesn't happen, and especially when someone like Solas or Anders gets the better of The Hero at the end, people get very personally offended.  Like the perceived betrayal of their beloved PC applies to the player too.

 

It's obviously irrational, but I can see where it comes from.

 

Yeah, I'm still p*ssed about the spies.

 

But the rest - I actually enjoy HCing a Lavellan who thinks she's the Super Clever Savior of Awesome, only to make a bunch of dumb mistakes, screw up her world state, and realize she's been played for a fool and that she's not that clever, after all. 

 

I don't really get offended if someone one ups the pc. Except for The Iron Lady when it comes to the furniture, an that's mostly because my Quizz cant do anything about it, like kicking her out. Seriously, the Quizz is suppose to the leader of this organization that The Iron Lady joined, so in that respect you are her boss. Now, would any of your bosses take that kinda of crap from an employee or would that employee be out the door? It just makes the Quizz look like a weak leader, in fact, they are a bad leader if they aren't respected by their followers. Also, it can be completely out of character for a particular Quizz who, like Cass, does not take bs well. I would have been fine if they gave the player the option to throw her out after that, but no, she gets plot armor and that just It hasn't happened to me, since I didn't really talk to her that much on my first play through and once I found out about that scene I stopped recruiting her.

 

Also, while I'm not offended by things like Solas playing the Quizz for a fool and his spies in Trespasser, I do get angry when my pc is treated badly. Which is one of the reasons for my hatred for Sera for her cruelty towards Lavellan. Her "give up your religion or I'm leaving you and won't be your friend anymore," and "haha, everything you've been wearing slave marking on your face this whole time," and the name calling, ect. While, I never experienced the first two in game play, never romanced Sera and never came to her after the scene after the Temple of Mythal, I was really pissed when I found out she did that. So much so that I never recruit her again and she is at the top of my crap list. Which is a shame, because I wanted to like her, I even tried to look pass how she puts my first Lavellan's culture down because my quizz needed to feel like she was seen as a person, which is what Sera's pranks made her feel. But, after finding that out, I just want nothing to do with her.

 

Also, am I the only one here who is indifferent to Anora? I don't hate or like her, even though she betrayed me at the Landsmeet.

[Kadan]

It's really hard to draw any real conclusions from the Justice/Anders character in DA2. Seriously they fell short on their character development. Anders was completely different in Awakening, and I think so was Justice. Maybe they were trying to put emphasis on how a spirit changes someone? But I think they took it too far to the negative. Wynne and her spirit didn't seem to have any trouble co-existing.

 

Or is that the nature of Justice? We could compare Anders/Justice to Flemeth/Mythal. It's obvious that Flemeth is a little bitter as well as slightly batty. One of Mythal's personas is that of Justice.

[roselavellan]

idk, this is perhaps more a gripe with the writing than anything else, but I honestly think Justice's characterisation wasn't done justice (heh) in DA2.
 
In DA:A we get to meet a spirit who becomes gradually more curious and more affected by the mortal world. He grows from the pure essence of justice, to embodying that ideal in a dead man, as something now to aspire to in the flesh, to a much more complicated spirit who is concerned with ideas like 'love' which were beyond his reach or interest before. He finds purpose in remaining in the physical world, and begins to adjust to addressing justice in a radically different manner. In short, Justice, despite the supposedly simplicity of his nature, is actually a very complicated character who undergoes a lot of interesting development. He is neither good or bad.
 

 

In DAI we learn that spirits become demons when twisted from their original purposes, could it be that that's what we're seeing in DA2? Cole, for example, is only able to "develop" when he becomes human, if he stays a spirit, he remains Compassion and little else. Maybe they were trying to emphasize the differences between spirits and humans in DA2?

[FernRain]

I posted this a month ago..
 

Actually yeah they're much larger in origins:
 

 
So either the ones we see are baby halla or the scale is off.
 

Spoiler

 
The Dalish camp seems to have been upgraded in a patch.

Spoiler

There are now larger halla and bigger aravals outside the camp .

 

And haha what the- There's a dead inquisition scout in their halla cave.. Alright then..

 

[Sifr]

idk, this is perhaps more a gripe with the writing than anything else, but I honestly think Justice's characterisation wasn't done justice (heh) in DA2.
 
In DA:A we get to meet a spirit who becomes gradually more curious and more affected by the mortal world. He grows from the pure essence of justice, to embodying that ideal in a dead man, as something now to aspire to in the flesh, to a much more complicated spirit who is concerned with ideas like 'love' which were beyond his reach or interest before. He finds purpose in remaining in the physical world, and begins to adjust to addressing justice in a radically different manner. In short, Justice, despite the supposedly simplicity of his nature, is actually a very complicated character who undergoes a lot of interesting development. He is neither good or bad.
 
In DA2, a lot of those nuances... are erased. We never think of Justice as a whole person, someone who once was an end to themselves, nothing more or less. Instead, we're encouraged to see him as a parasitic influence on Anders. Justice only emerges fully during great times of stress or anxiety or panic for Anders - usually, inopportune moments, where Justice is presented with conflict and acts accordingly. Because of that context, we don't get the same sense of... fullness of his character, we only access him at those moments. We never, for instance, get to talk to Justice about what it is like living in a world so full of injustice which he is powerless to change. As a warden (of sorts), and a follower of the warden commander, Justice had a much clearer goal to envision, with greater ability to act it - i.e. killing darkspawn is not something anyone will object to, it's much easier to view the blight in terms of black and white, as just or injust. That must have been stressful and difficult for Justice as well. Anders blames himself for bringing this on him, but I don't think he appreciates the kind of autonomy Justice had before either - this was as much Justice's decision (and we never get to interrogate him, or see his side of the story). Justice is seen in terms of his negative influence on Anders, and very rarely seen on his own terms.
 
I also take issue with blaming Justice for a few other reasons.
1. Firstly, I think it shifts the blame away from Anders in a way that doesn't credit him as having the resolve, the dedication, the lack of compassion, or whatever you want to call it etc. to go through with his plan. I think that's detrimental to Anders' character, it makes him more passive in this process, and perhaps in turn means the game fails to realise one of its most interesting points: ordinary people can make, break, and change the world.
2. I think given that Anders is coded as mentally-ill during the game - Helper says he's bi-polar - I think there's often a temptation to view Anders as 'himself' and Justice as 'the illness', which alongside giving a misleading portrait given that the two aren't always separable, it also implies that Anders' own mental illness, the part of himself that wasn't truly him, is the reason he blew up the chantry. It leads to some nasty ableist conclusions - Anders was crazy, Anders was ill, Anders was sick in the head, he did this horrible thing because of it. That conclusion inaccurate: in game, Anders justifies his actions based not on desperation, or panic, but in reason: the chantry wasn't going to budge, it was logical to destroy it, if you didn't value the lives of people within it. In reality, perfectly mentally healthy people can often do despicable things, and mentally ill people are more often victims of those actions than perpetrators.
 
In short, I think had Justice been given more of a voice, more of a presence, DA2 could have been a much more nuanced and interesting game.

 

I agree that Anders himself holds the Chantry with contempt and so a lot of the negative feelings about it are clearly his, so we know that he does have that part of him that would to see every Templar and Chantry burn, which he even joked about in Awakening.

 

Justice as a seperate entity would only see the injustice the mages suffer at the hands of the Templars with a clincal detachment, as a problem that he would feel compelled by his nature to resolve as best as he could. Merged with Anders however, we can see several times that Justice has an utter loathing and contempt towards the Templars, which clearly is something he's drawn from Anders.

 

I probably was wrong to say that I blame Justice more than Anders for what happen, since it's obvious both were responsible. A better way to put it would be to say that Justice was the metaphorical spark that lit the dynamite that was Anders.

 

We repeatedly saw in Awakening in their conversations that Justice does not believe in idly sitting by when someone can do something, while Anders was content to merely run away from conflict or his problems every single chance he got. Anders lacked any motivation or agency until his merger with Justice, which is what finally got him to put his money where his mouth was and become the change he wished to see in the world.

 

That doesn't mean that Justice giving Anders a sense of purpose and a good kick up the rear was a bad thing... only what both of them chose to do with it.

 

I guess that makes Justice indirectly responsible at best... which could be said to be just as much be true of the Warden-Commander, who recruited them both and taught them that sometimes victory requires doing whatever it takes.

 

But you're right, we needed the chance to hold some kind of conversation with Justice in DA2, that would have let us get his perspective and really fleshed out both the new iteration of his character and precisely what Anders and his fusion had done to both of them.

 

(And to get back on topic, would have been nice if Anders was still alive and/or Hawke romanced them, we could have had Hawke ask our two fade nerds on any advice or help to seperate the two of them? I suspect Cole or Solas could have had some great insights)

[Cee]

I'm standing right here in the Exalted Plains by the halla and hear nothing. Maybe some quacking noises but no laughing.. .

 

Quacking  halla?

 

[Cee]

 

But, seriously, I don't think Solas has or had any kids, if he did the  they are probably dead.

 

 

 

Solas' autobiography:

 

 

[Cee]

 

(And to get back on topic, would have been nice if Anders was still alive and/or Hawke romanced them, we could have had Hawke ask our two fade nerds on any advice or help to seperate the two of them? I suspect Cole or Solas could have had some great insights)

 

As someone with an Anders romance and a Hawke who ran off with him at the end of DA2, that would've been nice.

[Cee]

And makes you wonder how much of a demon Justice had become before he entered Anders meatsuit... since either he suggested the possession to begin with, or he didn't object to Anders offering to be his host, which is a far cry from how he despised all demonic behaviour in Awakening?

 

 

From Awakening and the Anders short story, it seems clear that Justice offered a deal. I think you're close in the whole 'a body is more tethered' notion, since Justice seemed to like and find purpose in having one, and clearly, Kristoff was rotting.

 

I don't blame Anders for everything as much as some do, because he really did lose a lot of control, and the influence was not easily defined. For Anders, accepting the deal effectively saved his life but also gave him not just his freedom back, but a greater power to work toward something they both supported. And yet...it got away from each of them.

 

I know lots of people find it easy to hate Anders, but even with the shortcomings of DA2, he still has many layers, and is, to me, more of a tragic figure than anything.
 

[midnight tea]

Alternative title: "What a person has to do to get a hug here!?" 

[The Lone Shadow]

Alternative title: "What a person has to do to get a hug here!?"