153429 réponses à ce sujet

[drosophila]

Taking Mary Sue litmus test.

 

http://www.springhol...ing/marysue.htm

 

"Does your character become a magically enhanced being, possibly with new powers or looks?"

 

Yes, but it's not my fault! BioWare fails.

[Raeona]

Taking Mary Sue litmus test.

 

http://www.springhol...ing/marysue.htm

 

"Does your character become a magically enhanced being, possibly with new powers or looks?"

 

Yes, but it's not my fault! BioWare fails.

 

Ah, but that's the inciting incident and it tries to kill us later so we get a pass! And we end up an amputee so surely that's an extra point in our favour?

[TheEggCrusher]

Taking Mary Sue litmus test.

 

http://www.springhol...ing/marysue.htm

 

"Does your character become a magically enhanced being, possibly with new powers or looks?"

 

Yes, but it's not my fault! BioWare fails.

ugh this bothers me. If a person is freaking dropped into another world that's GOVERNED BY MAGIC as well as completely different from the one we know, of course the character is going to change somehow. Also, I find it extremely boring to just watch a regular person flounder around not being able to do anything. They have to be special somehow, or, to me, it's just hella boring 

[Ellawynn]

 

 

With regards to feynite-criticism:

Spoiler

I'm admittedly biased, but I can't really see some of the criticism against her. It might be because I follow her tumblr and she's been great with responding to asks, and so I've got more of an insight into her Lavellan's head than someone who's only read the beginning (which is not a fault, just to be clear).

 

I remember someone asking her about her attitude towards the elvhen at the start (which was bordering silly particularly with Solas, but I took it was meant more for humor than anything else), and the author explained that this was the Arthlathan that Solas killed absolutely everybody to go back to. It was never going to meet her expectations, and her picture of it is distorted because of the cost it took for her to be there. I can understand her attitude about it, which made it okay for me. But that's probably not going to be for everyone. It was understandable, at least to me, that Lavellan would project some of her frustration and anger at younger Solas, even if it was unfair since he hasn't done anything yet. Considering everything she's been through.

 

Her command over magic did make me roll my eyes internally though. But I also put that down to the power Solas transferred to her before she died. It made Solas super powerful, right? And although it's not been properly revealed if Lavellan is now "ancient elf" status yet (i.e immortal?), I'm going to take it that ancient elves naturally adept at magic + Solas' power = Mighty Fightin' Power Lavellan. x) I guess we'll see.

 

Edit: I should probably add a disclaimer. Different tastes is fine, my opinion doesn't make mine any more correct than someone else, blah blah blah.

 

Spoiler

I figured a lot of her bitterness came from that fact. It just doesn't make her hypocrisy and prejudice any easier to swallow for me. Irrational protagonists and I have never really gotten along, especially when no one seems inclined to call them out on their irrationality. 

 

I mean, I'm still reading the story, because I'm a masochist and everything that's not the protagonist has me genuinely intrigued, moreso then with Dread Wolf's Heart which was kind of lacking any strong plot or setting to maintain my interest. But dat Lavellan tho. Goddamn. I wish I could just pinch her every time she starts to make some shitty comment about the elves.

[Jayla]

ugh this bothers me. If a person is freaking dropped into another world that's GOVERNED BY MAGIC as well as completely different from the one we know, of course the character is going to change somehow. Also, I find it extremely boring to just watch a regular person flounder around not being able to do anything. They have to be special somehow, or, to me, it's just hella boring 

 

These characters always bother me since they seem to come about under the pretense of "being a gateway for the viewers". A normal person, like you!, to relate to. Like Xander from Buffy.

 

But I prefer that to the characters that are supposed to be strong but end up doing nothing anyway. Most female protagonists in Anime* tend to fall into that category. I stopped watching Fairy Tail because despite Lucy supposedly being a strong mage; she does buggery dickens, when she does do something she either gets pummeled or is only the victor because someone else helps her. Yeah, sewper strong.

 

(It's sad because I really, really like her, I just can't stand her treatment in the series).

 

* Edit: I should say female protagonists in most popular shounen Anime, but I'm tired. xD

[drosophila]

ugh this bothers me. If a person is freaking dropped into another world that's GOVERNED BY MAGIC as well as completely different from the one we know, of course the character is going to change somehow. Also, I find it extremely boring to just watch a regular person flounder around not being able to do anything. They have to be special somehow, or, to me, it's just hella boring 

 

I have different preferences. I love the non-special people doing their boring things. 

 

I'm doing well on that quiz so far, I barely check any boxes. 

[Tess]

The link is in my signature.

 

 I've posted a question there. It's a sensitive topic and I am on mobile after waking up at 4 am (tiny gremlins don't accept sleeping over time) so it might be slightly incoherent. Also tryingto demolish Haven without Mary Sueing and being all corny.

[Jayla]

Spoiler

I figured a lot of her bitterness came from that fact. It just doesn't make her hypocrisy and prejudice any easier to swallow for me. Irrational protagonists and I have never really gotten along, especially when no one seems inclined to call them out on their irrationality. 

 

I mean, I'm still reading the story, because I'm a masochist and everything that's not the protagonist has me genuinely intrigued, moreso then with Dread Wolf's Heart which was kind of lacking any strong plot or setting to maintain my interest. But dat Lavellan tho. Goddamn. I wish I could just pinch her every time she starts to make some shitty comment about the elves.

 

Spoiler

I suppose as it is right now there's no one to call her out on her irrationality just yet. No one knows her circumstances just yet, but I agree, I hope maybe we'll see Pride (if he finds out the truth) saying "Wait, you treated me like sh*t when we first met for stuff I haven't even done yet? That I might not even do?" We'll see.

 

I ended up dropping TDWH myself, it moved too slowly for me. I might pick it up later though. x))

[TheEggCrusher]

These characters always bother me since they seem to come about under the pretense of "being a gateway for the viewers". A normal person, like you!, to relate to. Like Xander from Buffy.

 

But I prefer that to the characters that are supposed to be strong but end up doing nothing anyway. Most female protagonists in Anime* tend to fall into that category. I stopped watching Fairy Tail because despite Lucy supposedly being a strong mage; she does buggery dickens, when she does do something she either gets pummeled or is only the victor because someone else helps her. Yeah, sewper strong.

 

(It's sad because I really, really like her, I just can't stand her treatment in the series).

 

* Edit: I should say female protagonists in most popular shounen Anime, but I'm tired. xD

Yeah, strong, independent people are who I like to read about most, who can handle the pressure of being in another world, but are still relatable. Part of the reason I can't stand most modern girl inserts in LOTR fanfiction (especially Legomances) is because the girls are always weak, confused, and get everything they want with a snap of their fingers, even though they have no strong character aspects at all. 

 

 

I have different preferences. I love the non-special people doing their boring things. 

 

I'm doing well on that quiz so far, I barely check any boxes. 

 

sorry, when I said non-special I mean the type of mary sues who obviously can't survive in the world they've been dropped into, but miraculously do anyways, as well as get everything they want with no realistic effort put in whatsoever. I mean, they have no unique characteristics that they utilize to survive or progress their situation. They just kinda flip their hair and pucker their lips till someone (Legolas) does everything for them. 

[Ellawynn]

Ah, the Mary Sue Litmus Test. I remember the days when I furiously fed all my OCs through that.

 

On the subject of it - I mean, I guess it doesn't hurt to do it, but it's really not the be-all end-all of what does or does not a Mary Sue make. Some Sues will pass with flying colors while perfectly relatable characters fail miserably. It's a very flawed system, probably because Sues can be very subjective things that rely just as much on how the narrative treats and frames them as much as they do on the actual, solid facts. It really is a judgement call, and not everyone will agree. 

 

I dunno, I just wouldn't put much stock in it, no matter how it turns out.

 

Or just ignore me if you want. Think of me as that weirdo grandma ranting incoherently on things no one cares about.

[Sifr]

There's definitely a balance that needs to be struck when you're writing a character that has some kind of unique ability, because it's all to tempting to have them end up being able to absolutely anything the plot requires and that ends up making the character extremely boring.

 

On the other hand, it can go too far the other way, when a writer is too afraid of their empowered character being labelled a Mary-Sue. Then you have the audience getting annoyed when the character with the power could easily have solved a problem, but they either take a long time realising it or fail to take advantage of it entirely, because reasons.

 

When it comes to writing audience surrogates, they should at least be a badass normal, since they are supposed to be engaging characters that we want to spend time with and follow on the journey. It's fine if they are useless at first, but they should never remain the load for the entire story, because what is the point of them otherwise?

 

I think it's better to make them savvy to at least compensate for their initial lack of skill, since that allows them to be as quick on the uptake as the audience is. I don't know about anyone else, but to me, unless the character is enjoyable, it can be extremely frustrating and take you right out of the story when you have a character who fails to realise what the audience figured out ages ago.

[drosophila]

Ah, the Mary Sue Litmus Test. I remember the days when I furiously fed all my OCs through that.

 

On the subject of it - I mean, I guess it doesn't hurt to do it, but it's really not the be-all end-all of what does or does not a Mary Sue make. Some Sues will pass with flying colors while perfectly relatable characters fail miserably. It's a very flawed system, probably because Sues can be very subjective things that rely just as much on how the narrative treats and frames them as much as they do on the actual, solid facts. It really is a judgement call, and not everyone will agree. 

 

I dunno, I just wouldn't put much stock in it, no matter how it turns out.

 

Or just ignore me if you want. Think of me as that weirdo grandma ranting incoherently on things no one cares about.

 

No, no, I want to know more! What are some Mary Sues that would pass?

[drosophila]

sorry, when I said non-special I mean the type of mary sues who obviously can't survive in the world they've been dropped into, but miraculously do anyways, as well as get everything they want with no realistic effort put in whatsoever. I mean, they have no unique characteristics that they utilize to survive or progress their situation. They just kinda flip their hair and pucker their lips till someone (Legolas) does everything for them. 

 

Those do sound annoying. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Taking Mary Sue litmus test.
 
http://www.springhol...ing/marysue.htm
 
"Does your character become a magically enhanced being, possibly with new powers or looks?"
 
Yes, but it's not my fault! BioWare fails.

I used it when I wrote more OCs.  Now that I write mostly game fanfiction, I don't because of things like this.

It's IMO exactly like a litmus test--it'll give you a ballpark, but it's imprecise. Just as litmus paper doesn't give you a number for pH, the Mary Sue test does not give you a clear idea of who your character actually is.  It's like asking someone to describe Solas and getting the answer "hobo."  

 

For me, what makes a character a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is the rest of the narrative bending over backwards to accommodate that one character's demands for attention.  It's still a spectrum, and BioWare games do this to a certain extent for their protagonist.  The real question is, are you extending the degree to which the world must warp for your PC?  If you are, ask yourself why.  Does your Inquisitor need to be more special for the sake of the story, or for his/her own sake?

 

*stares at nano project outline*

 

It is 3 sentences long and I can already think of 10 things that are wrong with it.

 

Meh.

 

*types on*

 

That's the spirit!

 

Of course, I can't really talk.  I will never do NaNo, and I'm not exactly stretching myself with grad!Solas fluff every few days.  But it seems to make y'all happy and I have fun writing it  Those are the two really important things.

[Cee]

Ah, the Mary Sue Litmus Test. I remember the days when I furiously fed all my OCs through that.

 

On the subject of it - I mean, I guess it doesn't hurt to do it, but it's really not the be-all end-all of what does or does not a Mary Sue make. Some Sues will pass with flying colors while perfectly relatable characters fail miserably. It's a very flawed system, probably because Sues can be very subjective things that rely just as much on how the narrative treats and frames them as much as they do on the actual, solid facts. It really is a judgement call, and not everyone will agree. 

 

I dunno, I just wouldn't put much stock in it, no matter how it turns out.

 

Or just ignore me if you want. Think of me as that weirdo grandma ranting incoherently on things no one cares about.

 

I tend to think this way too. Bad writing is bad writing, and even that's somewhat subjective. But I don't think so-called Mary Sues and apparent self-inserts are, by definition, a bad thing in and of themselves.

 

I remember a great article on the subject matter, but a lot of why we think of these characters in a bad light is, in part, because of how women's desires and interests have been shamed, ridiculed, minimized, and in other ways, simply criticized and not taken seriously. Especially when fic (especially shipping and smut)  and stories like this are written by women to express sexual fantasies of women.

 

Not saying this is a complete or sole reason, but I think it's part of the problem.

[drosophila]

#78. Does your character form a bond with a villain and through this bond cause the villain to reform?

 

[Sable Rhapsody]

No, no, I want to know more! What are some Mary Sues that would pass?

 

Dream of the Endless scores incredibly high.  As would Solas, for that matter, if you fed him through.  I wouldn't consider either to be Mary Sues.  The narrative doesn't let either of them get away with their crap.

 

EDIT for ToP: I ordered a beautiful print of this from me-za-me-ro's INPRNT gallery.

Spoiler

[drosophila]

Dream of the Endless scores incredibly high.  As would Solas, for that matter, if you fed him through.  I wouldn't consider either to be Mary Sues.  The narrative doesn't let either of them get away with their crap.

 

Yeah, as I was going through, I kept thinking, "Gee, so much of this applies to Solas."

 

But what I wanted to know: What are Mary Sues that by that test would not seem to be. 

[TheEggCrusher]

 

I used it when I wrote more OCs.  Now that I write mostly game fanfiction, I don't because of things like this.

It's IMO exactly like a litmus test--it'll give you a ballpark, but it's imprecise. Just as litmus paper doesn't give you a number for pH, the Mary Sue test does not give you a clear idea of who your character actually is.  It's like asking someone to describe Solas and getting the answer "hobo."  

 

For me, what makes a character a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is the rest of the narrative bending over backwards to accommodate that one character's demands for attention.  It's still a spectrum, and BioWare games do this to a certain extent for their protagonist.  The real question is, are you extending the degree to which the world must warp for your PC?  If you are, ask yourself why.  Does your Inquisitor need to be more special for the sake of the story, or for his/her own sake?

 

 

 

That's the spirit!

 

Of course, I can't really talk.  I will never do NaNo, and I'm not exactly stretching myself with grad!Solas fluff every few days.  But it seems to make y'all happy and I have fun writing it  Those are the two really important things.

 

This is exactly what I meant by "special" characters!!!

 

I feel like a modern insert should be able to stand on their own as a strong, independent entity, and handle the complications of the story in their own unique way. The definition of a Mary Sue, to me, is a character who gets handed everything on a silver platter with no realistic struggles of their own. The story is built for their success and ultimate happy ending.   

[Cee]

Ah, I found one of the other things I remember loving with regards to fandom, fics, and gender., that I reblogged: http://modernscribe....e-doctor-who-or

 

text under here:

 

Spoiler

 

"

Large fandoms—things like Doctor Who, or Supernatural, or Star Trek, or any superhero comic—tend to have unique and separate sides to them: curative and transformative.

Curative fandom is all about knowledge. It’s about making sure that everything is lined up and in order, knowing how it works, and finding out which one is the best. What is the Doctor Who canon? Who is the best Doctor? How do Weeping Angels work? Etc etc. Curative fandom is p. much the norm on reddit, especially r/gallifrey.

Transformative fandom is about change. Let’s write fic! Let’s make art! Let’s make a fan vid! Let’s cosplay! Let’s somehow change the text. Why is Three easier to ship, while Seven is more difficult? What would happen if ______? Transformative fandom is more or less the norm on tumblr. (And livejournal, and dreamwidth, and fanfiction websites, and…)

Here’s the big thing: there’s a gender split. Find a random male fan, and they’ll probably be in curative fandom. Pick a random transformative fandom-er, and they’ll probably be female. Note that this is phrased in a very particular way—obviously there’s guys who cosplay and write fic, obviously there’s women who don’t. But men tend to be in the curative fandom, while transformative fandom is predominately women—and/or queer people, POC, etc. Why? Because the majority of professionally-made media is catered towards a straight white male demographic, leaving little room for ‘outsiders.’ Outsiders who, if they want to see themselves in media, have to attack it and change it—hence slash fic, hence long essays claiming that Hermione Granger is black, hence canons about trans characters or genderqueer characters.

And then curative/male fandom tends to view most things that transformative/female fandom does with disdain. Why? Because, in their eyes, it devalues canon. Who cares about knowing about Tony Stark’s lovers if somebody’s gonna write a fic where Toni Stark is flying about? Their power is lessened. Scream of the Shalka is unambiguously not canon—but it doesn’t have to be in order for me to read and enjoy a 30k fic where the robotic Master was secretly in the TARDIS during Nine and Ten’s time and they shagged behind the scenes. Canon? No, but who gives a ****?

Also, as transformative fandom tends to be an outsider looking in, they’re much more likely to analyze the work from a queer/PoC/neurodivergent/gender perspective. If I come to /r/gallifrey and start to talk about how ‘In the Forest of the Night’ had a questionable portrayal of mental health/autism, I get blank stare. If I go on tumblr, I get a conversation. This is also where the ‘overreacting, shrieking SJW’ trope plays in, either because of a redditor’s misunderstanding of terms and therefore assuming that a mild critique is a scathing one, or because the tumblr user in question is young/inexperienced and jumping the gun.

So, there you have it: /r/gallifrey’s bashing of reddit is part of a larger split in how men and women tend to enjoy fandom, and a lashing against how fanfiction/related things addresses fandom because it’s not the right “kind” of fandom. And also because tumblr is popular with teenage girls, and there’s nothing reddit loves more than shitting on whatever teenage girls like.

 

 

[Sifr]

#78. Does your character form a bond with a villain and through this bond cause the villain to reform?

 

 

By bond, do you mean, Lavellan having the kind of exceptional booty that Sir Mix-A-Lot would write songs about?

 

Even in the Trespasser ending slides, Wolf!Solas is depicted checking her out from the rear...

 

[drosophila]

"Is your character's name a variation, pun, or synonym of a canon character's name?"

 

Ouch, score 1 against drosophila.

[Cee]

"Is your character's name a variation, pun, or synonym of a canon character's name?"

 

Ouch, score 1 against drosophila.

 

Fly'Harel shall endure.

[Commander of the Grey]

I've been writing fanfiction since 2007 and if I've learned anything in all that time it's that you have to write what makes you happy. You're writing to tell a story and as long as that story is true to what you want, then nothing else matters. Edits can come later. The first draft is most times the most heartfelt and genuine and you can't sit there worrying about rules or labels. Free write what's in your heart at that moment.

Not everyone will love what you make. They won't all hate it either. You'll eventually draw a crowd that enjoys your particular style because no one writes the same way, nor should they try to. Uniqueness is what keeps it interesting.

Lose yourself in the story unfolding inside your head and trim the details later or else you'll lose sight of the emotions you're trying to convey.

Even if you're too scared to share it right away, tuck it in a safe place until you do feel comfortable. Let it out one person at a time if you have to. Just write~

[Sable Rhapsody]

Yeah, as I was going through, I kept thinking, "Gee, so much of this applies to Solas."

 

But what I wanted to know: What are Mary Sues that by that test would not seem to be. 

 

Ah, sorry for misunderstanding.

 

Honestly, I would put DA:I Cullen at least somewhat in that category, though certainly not full-on Mary Sue/Gary Stu.  Before I go any further, let me make a few things clear.

 

I like Cullen.  But I think the narrative bent around him to make him a more sympathetic Inner Circle member in DA:I.  I'm not saying that's inherently a bad thing.  I'm not saying he's evil or abusive or the writers are lazy or any of that nonsense.  In fact, I think his writer did an admirable job given how inconsistent his earlier portrayal can be. 

 

I'm simply saying that story elements (particularly the ones about lyrium addiction) were adjusted to fit DA:I Cullen rather than the other way around.  This is IMO a relatively minor example of the narrative conforming to the character.  I didn't find it obnoxious or anything.  But I did notice it.