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[Sable Rhapsody]

Ellana was... not a nice teenager. so, she'd probably stay away from the rest of you and pouts in her corner because LIFE ISN'T FAIR she's gotten better fortunately, but she gave poor aunt Deshanna headaches.

Clariel will take the other corner, at least at first. She was sweet, but very shy all through her teenage years.

[Moondreamer01]

Heh, I don't imagine that attitude would do well in the inquisition, thank goodness Deshanna was there to coerce the worst of the folly out of these ladies. My Debs spent most of her teenage years convinced that humans hated them because elves were clearly so much better. It was a long road to realizing that the only one who thought she was superior was herself. Fortunately she got over that before Solas could call her out on it. 

Fortunately, she's not a teen when she meets the Inquisition She's much better by then.

[Ellawynn]

Just throwing in my own response here. It gets long.

Spoiler

I don't agree that Lavellan is irrational to an unreasonable degree, but even if I did - where is the rule that says protagonists have to be perfectly rational beings? Honestly, if this character bugs you that much, I can't help but think that you must be terribly annoyed by the majority of characters in fiction, if they resemble real people at all, anyway.

It's also worth noting that a character that annoys you does not equal a badly-written one. I think the issue here is that you believe Feynite doesn't know what she's doing and that she really meant us to experience Lavellan as perfect and Elvhenan as irredeemable. But I had neither of those responses as a reader, and I don't recall many comments in her reviews that suggest other people had those responses either.

Lavellan. I think you expect a level of behaviour from her that is at least a little unrealistic, given the psychological impact of living through the things she has. Most people in Lavellan's situation - dropped into an alien environment, physically and emotionally traumatised, the last survivor of her world, dealing with people who aren't sure she's a person - most people in that situation would be more than a little reactive. I'm mainly surprised she didn't spend the first few chapters snarling at everyone from a corner. And it's not just that she is distressed by recent events, she now finds herself more or less at the mercy of the society that basically set the end of the world in motion. She's seen firsthand where it all leads. What is casual ignorance for them is deeply linked to the death of everyone she's known. It kinda feels like in order for her behaviour NOT to come off as hypocritical, irrational or childish to you, she would need the forbearance of a Buddha or the personality of a robot.

As for Elvhenan. I am not getting this extremely skewed view of elven society from Feynite's writing. There are few saints to be found in Arlathan, but few outright monsters as well, even though the society is supported by practices that are monstrous (seems like real life). I see a lot of humanity - for better and worse - in the small portraits she paints of its inhabitants. Ess the tavern keeper, the handmaids who give Lavellan her new vallaslin, the librarian who objects to her at first but backs down when scolded by Compassion, even Shira the would-be assassin - these all seem like real people to me. They can be cruel, often through ignorance, and while this doesn't make them monsters, Lavellan's reaction to them feels more than realistic. Being treated like an object, no matter how innocently, would produce some measure of hostility in anyone. And again, she knows where all of it eventually leads. Now, is griping about it the best way to fix things? Possibly not. But again,  she's under no small amount of stress. I think she's handling herself well, all things considered.

Lavellan's mastery of magic. I get that this is minor, but it's also mostly about assumptions. I didn't for a second take it as a marker of Lavellan's specialness, I just took it as an interesting aspect of how magic worked here, even if it wasn't fully explained yet. But that's because I've enjoyed Feynite's worldbuilding and thoughtful characterisations enough that she's established a trust with me as a reader, and I'm willing to take it on faith that if something is puzzling, it will be explained. I know that sort of trust isn't automatic, nor is it always rewarded, but for me at least, this author has earned it. I get that she hasn't done the same for you.

 

Spoiler

*Sigh* What would you like me to say? I understand that Lavellan's bitter. I understand that she's going through a lot, I understand that she's probably handling it well, all things considered - but I am... quite done, with reading Lavellan's constant takedown of the elvhen, for things her people do, for things she's done herself, for things she's doing herself, without anyone even pointing out that, hey, she's being a bit of a twit. The story, at least to me, doesn't raise a finger to dissuade her of this attitude, and at times seems to twist itself to validate it. I have no problem with the majority of protagonists, but I have quite an issue with hypocritical, short-sighted ones (And ones written to be an idiot, mostly for the same reason - ignorance that's incessant, undispelled, especially when it leads to them being jerks to others.) At this point, it's not so much her behavior as the story's seeming disinterest in changing it.

 

Nonetheless, the character hasn't bugged me enough to keep me from reading further. She's just easily the worst part of the story for me.

 

And I'd appreciate it if we refrained from making comments questioning my ability to enjoy other media, thank you.

 

On Elvhenan - I'm not sure what humanity was shown in the handmaiden's, given that one literally said to force Lavellan to take the vallaslin. Or in the librarian, who's still shown to be suspicious and distasteful of her. And I did, actually, appreciate the nuanced view to Shira - I even remember thinking that it was nice that she wasn't some cackling lunatic or something. Unfortunately, it was immediately followed up by Lavellan somehow forgetting she attacked an entire room of people and treating her like some innocent woman who was randomly and tortuously killed by Elgar'nan, so, it sort of only feeds into my "The only good characters are the ones that hate the elvhen" thing. Which, y'know, Ess feeds into as well.

 

[Moondreamer01]

Clariel will take the other corner, at least at first. She was sweet, but very shy all through her teenage years.

Ellana was not so much shy as angry at the world for not having magic and for her aunt for taking another first (ah, hormones. The world is mean when you're 13). The good news is that it allowed her a lot of time to explore and to become fascinated by the ruins they found in their travels with the clan.

[Cee]

OH MY GOD... I just found out where DA might have taken the name "Trevelyan".

 

Meet James Bond's villain from "GoldenEye" - Alec Trevelyan.

 

 

 

Zhat's... quite funny really. Anyway, I've always suspected that "Lavellan" may simply be distorted Llewellyn/Llywelyn (it's a Welsh name - appropriate, given that a lot of how Elvhen sounds has been 'inspired' by Welsh), but I didn't think other surnames could be based on something either taken from RL or other franchises/movies. Now I wonder what Adaar and Cadash could be inspired by.

 

I've always laughed at the Trevelyan name because this is what i associate it with. And I also laugh at the near rhyme of the default Evelyn Trevelyan.  Maybe just American pronunciation, I think.

[Raeona]

Fortunately, she's not a teen when she meets the Inquisition She's much better by then.

 

You know I'd quite like to see a full blown arrogant and self absorbed Dalish Inquisitor, who was 100% on board with the creators etc. I don't have the nerve to play as someone like that, and I don't think the game lets you either, but imagine the Herald of Andraste who openly says 'screw you, I'm Dalish' to just everyone. Everyone's expecting her to suck it up and play by the Orlesian and Fereldan rules, instead she runs the Inquisition like a really big clan. 

 

 

On Elvhenan - I'm not sure what humanity was shown in the handmaiden's, given that one literally said to force Lavellan to take the vallaslin. Or in the librarian, who's still shown to be suspicious and distasteful of her. And I did, actually, appreciate the nuanced view to Shira - I even remember thinking that it was nice that she wasn't some cackling lunatic or something. Unfortunately, it was immediately followed up by Lavellan somehow forgetting she attacked an entire room of people and treating her like some innocent woman who was randomly and tortuously killed by Elgar'nan, so, it sort of only feeds into my "The only good characters are the ones that hate the elvhen" thing. Which, y'know, Ess feeds into as well.

 

 

A lot of writers, even professional ones, seem to fall into the trap of 'us vs them', where they're almost afraid to show humanity in the enemy lest we question the righteousness of our hero. It's an easy trap to fall into, and sometimes even intentionally done. Note the Empire from Star Wars, there were no redeeming features at all, but it didn't matter because it wasn't trying to be a nuanced story. It's really what sets Bioware apart usually, because nobody is 100% evil, they all have shades of a broken person just trying to do what they think is right. I think you're right that Looking Glass has made the Evhen too much a 'them', but its more noticeable because its Dragon Age, where even Loghain had plenty of redeeming features. 

[Cee]

Nirwen was kind of in learning mode but also big sister, responsible daughter mode as a teen, but also learning a lot about herself. My fics start when she's 16, so capturing that, in teenage exuberance and Dalish responsibility, along with how family-oriented she is, as well as falling in love. It has been fun to explore.

[Sifr]

OH MY GOD... I just found out where DA might have taken the name "Trevelyan".

 

Meet James Bond's villain from "GoldenEye" - Alec Trevelyan.

 

*snip*

 

That's... quite funny really. Anyway, I've always suspected that "Lavellan" may simply be distorted Llywellyn (it's a Welsh name - appropriate, given that a lot of how Elvhen sounds has been 'inspired' by Welsh), but I didn't think other surnames could be based on something either taken from RL or other franchises/movies. Now I wonder what Adaar and Cadash could be inspired by.

 

Trevelyan means "homestead on the hill", which makes it quite apt for someone who ends up living in Skyhold, a fortress built into a mountain.

 

And if Lavellan was inspired by Llewellyn that would amusing, since the two etymologies for that name (that I've found at least) suggest it derives from "bright light" and "leader", which are extremely appropriate for the Inquisitor and the Anchor.

 

 

Spoiler

ah, I have similar problems.

I like the idea of the moral: i.e. you can't change everything, don't overstretch yourself. Even in the LiS world,you don't actually have *that* much control of events even given time travel powers, BUT the LiS world is so **** that I hate the idea that I can't change it. I mean, at the centre you're looking at the trauma an abusive, cruel teacher who kidnaps his students causes, in a corrupt institution which doesn't care too much from which direction the money goes. I don't like the idea that I just have to suck up all the horrible realities of this world as 'inevitable' when I have a real power to change it - a real power Max uses to fix Arcadia Bay. No - screw that, I'm going to get around it somehow whether by time travel or not.

I also feel that in terms of narrative that it's not compelling. You go through this traumatic nightmare arc where Max is reliving things Jefferson told her, but that leads precisely nowhere - suddenly, TORNADO, and all other discussions are put to the side. I'd be happy even if the Tornado was just symbolic of Max's turbulent mental state right then.

 

Spoiler

While I know that the reveal of a character being actually in an institution has been done a ton of times, the idea that the tornado and the time travel being symbolic of Max's mental state could have fit perfectly.

 

I mean, it's not hard to imagine that Max would have been traumatised by witnessing Chloe's death and doing nothing to stop it, leading her to invent a narrative where she ends up gaining the ability to travel in time and "fix" things. The game is her eventually coming to the realisation that it was not her fault what happened and she should not blame herself, nor can she fix everything that goes wrong.

 

Aside from that, there was one kinda sorta plothole that bothered me, since the ending hinges on it.

 

Why did Max ripping up her entry to the contest lead to her still getting tied up in the Dark Room? The game implies that it's because Jefferson burned the photographs. so obviously she couldn't have used it to go back, but does that mean that it also erased the version of Future!Max who had already been in the past and tipped off David about him in the first place?

 

I mean, when Max goes back into Warren's photo, the new timeline's version of Chloe still remembers their conversation afterwards. But if Max had done something during the time between that conversation and the present that lead to the photograph to get destroyed, would that have erased the version of herself that had gone back there and change history back to when Chloe was dead again?

 

Even for myself as a huge time travel nerd, the multiple timelines interaction got a little confusing at the end.

 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Trevelyan means "homestead on the hill", which makes it quite apt for someone who ends up living in Skyhold, a fortress built into a mountain.

 

And if Lavellan was inspired by Llewellyn that would amusing, since the two etymologies for that name (that I've found at least) suggest it derives from "bright light" and "leader", which are extremely appropriate for the Inquisitor and the Anchor.

 

Still not as cool as Adaar.

 

"Ship mounted cannon," yo 

[FernRain]

I've always laughed at the Trevelyan name because this is what i associate it with. And I also laugh at the near rhyme of the default Evelyn Trevelyan.  Maybe just American pronunciation, I think.

 

I was weirded out hearing it because it sounds like my married name when mispronounced (it has only been pronounced correctly twice, as I hear. Once of which I heard from a Chemist). It's French: Travaille. I've heard it as 'Tre-valley', and when I heard Trevelyan it was eerily similar. It's really pronounced 'Tra-va-ye', I think. I learnt Spanish, not French .

[Eivuwan]

I feel torn. I don't know if I should pay $30 for Hakkon and Descent. They seem inferior to Trespasser so I don't want to pay the same price for them. On the other hand, I want to replay the game and it's a bit dull to play all the same mission again.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I feel torn. I don't know if I should pay $30 for Hakkon and Descent. They seem inferior to Trespasser so I don't want to pay the same price for them. On the other hand, I want to replay the game and it's a bit dull to play all the same mission again.

 

I would say that Trespasser is the best of the three, and Descent was IMO the weakest, though it had really juicy lore.  I actually really liked Jaws of Hakkon, but I'm biased because of my love of the Avvar.  Hakkon has the least long-term story relevance, but I found it the most fun to play since I like exploration, and the Frostback Basin is very pretty.

[Eivuwan]

Just throwing in my own response here. It gets long.

Spoiler

I don't agree that Lavellan is irrational to an unreasonable degree, but even if I did - where is the rule that says protagonists have to be perfectly rational beings? Honestly, if this character bugs you that much, I can't help but think that you must be terribly annoyed by the majority of characters in fiction, if they resemble real people at all, anyway.

It's also worth noting that a character that annoys you does not equal a badly-written one. I think the issue here is that you believe Feynite doesn't know what she's doing and that she really meant us to experience Lavellan as perfect and Elvhenan as irredeemable. But I had neither of those responses as a reader, and I don't recall many comments in her reviews that suggest other people had those responses either.

Lavellan. I think you expect a level of behaviour from her that is at least a little unrealistic, given the psychological impact of living through the things she has. Most people in Lavellan's situation - dropped into an alien environment, physically and emotionally traumatised, the last survivor of her world, dealing with people who aren't sure she's a person - most people in that situation would be more than a little reactive. I'm mainly surprised she didn't spend the first few chapters snarling at everyone from a corner. And it's not just that she is distressed by recent events, she now finds herself more or less at the mercy of the society that basically set the end of the world in motion. She's seen firsthand where it all leads. What is casual ignorance for them is deeply linked to the death of everyone she's known. It kinda feels like in order for her behaviour NOT to come off as hypocritical, irrational or childish to you, she would need the forbearance of a Buddha or the personality of a robot.

As for Elvhenan. I am not getting this extremely skewed view of elven society from Feynite's writing. There are few saints to be found in Arlathan, but few outright monsters as well, even though the society is supported by practices that are monstrous (seems like real life). I see a lot of humanity - for better and worse - in the small portraits she paints of its inhabitants. Ess the tavern keeper, the handmaids who give Lavellan her new vallaslin, the librarian who objects to her at first but backs down when scolded by Compassion, even Shira the would-be assassin - these all seem like real people to me. They can be cruel, often through ignorance, and while this doesn't make them monsters, Lavellan's reaction to them feels more than realistic. Being treated like an object, no matter how innocently, would produce some measure of hostility in anyone. And again, she knows where all of it eventually leads. Now, is griping about it the best way to fix things? Possibly not. But again,  she's under no small amount of stress. I think she's handling herself well, all things considered.

Lavellan's mastery of magic. I get that this is minor, but it's also mostly about assumptions. I didn't for a second take it as a marker of Lavellan's specialness, I just took it as an interesting aspect of how magic worked here, even if it wasn't fully explained yet. But that's because I've enjoyed Feynite's worldbuilding and thoughtful characterisations enough that she's established a trust with me as a reader, and I'm willing to take it on faith that if something is puzzling, it will be explained. I know that sort of trust isn't automatic, nor is it always rewarded, but for me at least, this author has earned it. I get that she hasn't done the same for you.

 

To be honest, although most fans enjoy her work, the people who have issues with it are not likely to speak out. Any criticism on the AO3 comments section would probably result in a lot of people jumping down the throat of the person doing the criticizing.

[Cee]

I was weirded out hearing it because it sounds like my married name when mispronounced (it has only been pronounced correctly twice, as I hear. Once of which I heard from a Chemist). It's French: Travaille. I've heard it as 'Tre-valley', and when I heard Trevelyan it was eerily similar. It's really pronounced 'Tra-va-ye', I think. I learnt Spanish, not French .

 

I only know the barest of French (English and Spanish here, and still trying to learn Portuguese) but that's one of the forms of "to work", right? I know how to pronounce that

 

But I can see how Trevelyan might get mushed up into something that sounds similar.

[Cee]

Was just browsing around and discovered this: http://www.upworthy....t-sounds?c=ufb1 Art contest by the American Society for Microbiology.

 

This is so very, very cool

 

Back to yesterday's argument that even the tiniest microgremlins are valuable and Solas needs to be whacked with the magic feather duster of sense ASAP.

 

 

Though the ones currently lingering around attacking my system can feel free to go at any time, really.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Was just browsing around and discovered this: http://www.upworthy....t-sounds?c=ufb1 Art contest by the American Society for Microbiology.

 

This is so very, very cool

 

Back to yesterday's argument that even the tiniest microgremlins are valuable and Solas needs to be whacked with the magic feather duster of sense ASAP.

 

Ahh, this is gorgeous!

 

See, Solas?  You like to paint.  So do these microgremlins and the gremlin scientists who made art from them.  You can bond over that instead of ending the world.

[Sifr]

I've always laughed at the Trevelyan name because this is what i associate it with. And I also laugh at the near rhyme of the default Evelyn Trevelyan.  Maybe just American pronunciation, I think.

 

I was weirded out hearing it because it sounds like my married name when mispronounced (it has only been pronounced correctly twice, as I hear. Once of which I heard from a Chemist). It's French: Travaille. I've heard it as 'Tre-valley', and when I heard Trevelyan it was eerily similar. It's really pronounced 'Tra-va-ye', I think. I learnt Spanish, not French .

 

I'm currently working on an OC for a multi-Warden Origins fic, who has a similar problem due to his Orlesian name. He's long since resigned himself to being called "Freeman" by everyone, because of how "Fremont" is pronounced with an Orlesian accent.

 

[XEternalXDreamsX]

Edit: Wrong topic.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

Edit: Double post, also. Sorry, guys.

[drosophila]

Was just browsing around and discovered this: http://www.upworthy....t-sounds?c=ufb1 Art contest by the American Society for Microbiology.

This is so very, very cool

Back to yesterday's argument that even the tiniest microgremlins are valuable and Solas needs to be whacked with the magic feather duster of sense ASAP.


Though the ones currently lingering around attacking my system can feel free to go at any time, really.

They're beautiful! They remind me of my first year at grad school when everyone was so wide eyed and excited to do science. We'd do things like throw parties where we baked cookies and decorated them to look like cells.

[midnight tea]

Ahh, this is gorgeous!

 

See, Solas?  You like to paint.  So do these microgremlins and the gremlin scientists who made art from them.  You can bond over that instead of ending the world.

 

Now, now - I don't think Solas would judge, say, XXI century Earth same way he'd judge Thedas in a state it currently is

 

In fact, I DO wonder what he'd think? On one hand we're very... 'quick', in a sense that time seems to run fact and many of us seem to be preocuppied mostly with present, kind of like Sera.

 

On the other - we're kiiiinda closer to Elvenhan than we're to current Thedosians: many of us live in a vast and powerful civilization that spans almost an entire globe, we have highly advanced technology and quite a few countries and people are interested with innovation, progress, science and generally knowing much about the world; we mostly got rid of awful things like feudalism or slavery, technically we don't have empires or monarchies; we have means to travel fast (maybe not s fast as Eluvians, but come on - we can travel all across the globe in machines that fly higher than highest mountains) as well as means to communicate instantly and store our entire knowledge across the World Wide Web... and we also have means to destroy life on entire Earth, not to mention that we're kinda draining Earth out of precious resources in order to keep our modern way of life.

 

Heh... I actually can imagine that most of us would be mostly appalled or horrified with the world if, say, we moved back in time maybe 400 or 600 years. Bah, even less than that!

 

Most people were illiterate and cared little about anything other than their little worlds (though it wasn't necessarily their fault). For many of us, likely they'd be as "Tranquil" as modern Thedosians are to Solas.

[MayriyaNoori]

Edit: Double post, also. Sorry, guys.

I gave you likes cause I accept your apology and we're nice here.

[Cee]

They're beautiful! They remind me of my first year at grad school when everyone was so wide eyed and excited to do science. We'd do things like throw parties where we baked cookies and decorated them to look like cells.

 

This is actually really cute.

 

I loved the variety in the entries.

[MayriyaNoori]

adlkcnoai; ghn I think I found my Lavellan's post-Trespasser song for how she feels about Solas!!! @.@

 

And I so fail at lyrics/don't get them/just prefer instrumental but I'm digging this.

 

 

I'm digging it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Now, now - I don't think Solas would judge, say, XXI century Earth same way he'd judge Thedas in a state it currently is

 

In fact, I DO wonder what he'd think? On one hand we're very... 'quick', in a sense that time seems to run fact and many of us seem to be preocuppied mostly with present, kind of like Sera.

 

On the other - we're kiiiinda closer to Elvenhan than we're to current Thedosians: many of us live in a vast and powerful civilization that spans almost an entire globe, we have highly advanced technology and quite a few countries and people are interested with innovation, progress, science and generally knowing much about the world; we mostly got rid of awful things like feudalism or slavery, technically we don't have empires or monarchies; we have means to travel fast (maybe not s fast as Eluvians, but come on - we can travel all across the globe in machines that fly higher than highest mountains) as well as means to communicate instantly and store our entire knowledge across the World Wide Web... and we also have means to destroy life on entire Earth, not to mention that we're kinda draining Earth out of precious resources in order to keep our modern way of life.

 

Heh... I actually can imagine that most of us would be mostly appalled or horrified with the world if, say, we moved back in time maybe 400 or 600 years. Bah, even less than that!

 

Most people were illiterate and cared little about anything other than their little worlds (though it wasn't necessarily their fault). For many of us, likely they'd be as "Tranquil" as modern Thedosians are to Solas.

 

Seriously.  Move back just fifty years, and I'd be appalled at a lot of things.  It's why I'm somewhat sympathetic to Solas's knee-jerk reaction even if I think it's a bad idea.  If I woke up and Earth had reverted to, say, the 1100s, I'd probably try my damndest to find a reset button too.