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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#142376
midnight tea

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IMO the difference is that the narrative spells it out in the Wardens' case: Nightmare played off their fears and gave them just enough rope to hang themselves.  I'd assume the situation is similar with the rebel mages, but it's neither spelled out nor made very clear, which makes it easier to place all the moral blame for Redcliffe on Fiona and her fellow rebels.  Alexius is also a more sympathetic bad guy than the jerkface at Therinfal Redoubt, or Magister Erimond.  It's harder to put Alexius in the position of cackling villain behind the scenes when so much of his characterization is driven by his desperation to save his son.

 

Yes, and Alexius pretty much does what Fiona does - he sides with forces he likely knows are pretty shady. I mean, it's not really that hard to see a parallel here, especially considering how parallel-driven the story in DA, and especially DAI is.

 

 

Except the game does not make that clear.  You mention that in any anti-Fiona thread and you'll be asked for proof, told you're making things up and that you're ignoring canon.

 

I'm not really sure what other proof people need aside from the fact that Alexius was willing to use very unstable magic that threatened to unravel the world just to secure the alliance with Redcliffe mages.

 

If he goes that far, the use of 'persuasion techniques' like blood magic - something common in Tevinter and certainly not uncommon among Venatori - were likely used, among other things, like (and Fiona tells is to Inky in Skyhold) shady people spreading rumors and fear among mages in Redcliffe. That, plus the threat of the Templars eventually sacking Redcliffe wasn't even that much of a lie. It's only when Inquisition and Inquisitor himself/herself intervenes that the area near Redcliffe - and the road to the town itself - gets cleared from the threat of both rogue mages and rogue Templars (add to that the fact that Lucius himself took Templars to Thierinfal Redoubt and nobody knew what he plotted, only that something fishy was going on there).



#142377
Raeona

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Which is why you don't leave the Blanketfort!  Or you do and picture everyone out there as an angry yelling muppet  :lol:

 

I assume everyone on the internet is an angry yelling muppet. Just felt and funny voice acting, and nobody will convince me otherwise. Except for maybe the Blanketfort, we're more like the singing muppet fruit. 


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#142378
Illyria

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Yes, and Alexius pretty much does what Fiona does - he sides with forces he likely knows are pretty shady. I mean, it's not really that hard to see a parallel here, especially considering how parallel-driven the story in DA, and especially DAI is.

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what other proof people need aside from the fact that Alexius was willing to use very unstable magic that threatened to unravel the world just to secure the alliance with Redcliffe mages.

 

If he goes that far, the use of 'persuasion techniques' like blood magic - something common in Tevinter and certainly not uncommon among Venatori - were likely used, among other things, like (and Fiona tells is to Inky in Skyhold) shady people spreading rumors and fear among mages in Redcliffe. That, plus the threat of the Templars eventually sacking Redcliffe wasn't even that much of a lie. It's only when Inquisition and Inquisitor himself/herself intervenes that the area near Redcliffe - and the road to the town itself - gets cleared from the threat of both rogue mages and rogue Templars (add to that the fact that Lucius himself took Templars to Thierinfal Redoubt and nobody knew what he plotted, only that something fishy was going on there).

 

Because people hated Fiona before she was in DAI.  Because some fans hate mages and hate elves and hate elven mages.  Because some fans hate any female character with authority, or who isn't available to them sexually (see: Sera), or who doesn't fit their mold of what is acceptable in a woman (so a loud, outspoken revolutionary elven mage isn't going to go over well).  Because elves are treated like crap by the narrative in order to add more 'grey' into the game and that makes people think that they deserve what they get.


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#142379
ComedicSociopathy

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Except the game does not make that clear.  You mention that in any anti-Fiona thread and you'll be asked for proof, told you're making things up and that you're ignoring canon.

 

It's not that your necessarily making things up. It's just that while maybe blood magic or Nightmare was involved in Fiona's idiotic decision making, the game doesn't mention those things actually playing a factor. If Fiona was mind control through blood magic then there should been a mention of that after Alexius is defeated by Fiona or someone else. The same can be side for Nightmare's possible influence. Which of course leaves the simple explanation of Fiona having made a stupid mistake and is something a hypocrite and poor leader.

 

Characters being stupid is something that can happen to even the most beloved fan characters. It's not a big thing. That said, her writing is pretty poor and hilarious. 



#142380
Sable Rhapsody

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I assume everyone on the internet is an angry yelling muppet. Just felt and funny voice acting, and nobody will convince me otherwise. Except for maybe the Blanketfort, we're more like the singing muppet fruit. 

 

:lol:

 

I've always been this way though; I find a cozy corner, and only venture out into the wider world of fandom after prodding it with a ten foot pole.  I had the Garrus thread in the Mass Effect fandom, and the Wolfstar shippers all the way back in the Harry Potter fandom.

 

 

Because people hated Fiona before she was in DAI.  Because some fans hate mages and hate elves and hate elven mages.  Because some fans hate any female character with authority, or who isn't available to them sexually (see: Sera), or who doesn't fit their mold of what is acceptable in a woman (so a loud, outspoken revolutionary elven mage isn't going to go over well).  Because elves are treated like crap by the narrative in order to add more 'grey' into the game and that makes people think that they deserve what they get.

 

While I've never liked Fiona, it had nothing to do with her being elven or female or in a position of authority.  She's an abrasive person, and IMO she's written to be a somewhat polarizing character.  So IMO it's perfectly plausible to dislike her for her personality and not her role in the story or her portrayal in DA:I.  Same goes for Morrigan or Miranda Lawson or Izzy.  On the guy's side, for Anders or Solas.


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#142381
dawnstone

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Which is why you don't leave the Blanketfort!  Or you do and picture everyone out there as an angry yelling muppet  :lol:

Or very derpy ones:

NsXyNMc.gif


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#142382
Sable Rhapsody

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Or very derpy ones:

NsXyNMc.gif

 

I like the derpy ones!  Like the guy all the way back in DA:O who claimed to have been ninjamanced by Zev offering a sensual Antivan massage :D  


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#142383
midnight tea

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:lol:

 

I've always been this way though; I find a cozy corner, and only venture out into the wider world of fandom after prodding it with a ten foot pole.  I had the Garrus thread in the Mass Effect fandom, and the Wolfstar shippers all the way back in the Harry Potter fandom.

 

I'm mostly a lurker... Or a tick, maybe :D I jump from leaf to leaf and when I find a juicy prey I stick to it and get fat :lol:


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#142384
Illyria

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It's not that your necessarily making things up. It's just that while maybe blood magic or Nightmare was involved in Fiona's idiotic decision making, the game doesn't mention those things actually playing a factor. If Fiona was mind control through blood magic then there should been a mention of that after Alexius is defeated by Fiona or someone else. The same can be side for Nightmare's possible influence. Which of course leaves the simple explanation of Fiona having made a stupid mistake and is something a hypocrite and poor leader.

 

Characters being stupid is something that can happen to even the most beloved fan characters. It's not a big thing. That said, her writing is pretty poor and hilarious. 

 

Sorry this is gong to sound like I'm ranting at you but I'm not.

 

The game goes out of its way to tell us that the Templars were being corrupted by Red Lyrium, and nearly every character you meet in CotJ wants the order to be saved.  Fiona doesn't get this, and every mage you speak to in Redcliffe is against the rebellion with the sole exception of Adrian Linnea.  And in the bad future every single one of those mages was shown to be completly batcrap and willing to do anything for power.  And let's not forget that in the Hinterlands the Templars are people who are 'going against everything the order stands for' while the mages have 'gone mad with power'.

 

These are all tiny things and they're not that bad on their own but they are rarely given any counter points.  Sera goes on about the Dalish being elfy elves, Vivienne get to spout crap about them and even an elf can't argue with her, and Solas has a whole 'you are not my people' thing going on.  And there's nothing to balance this.  Even playing as an elf we're not treated very well by the sole Dalish clan we meet.

 

No, the game doesn't let us know that Fiona was being controlled.  Maybe the devs excepted the players to figuring it out on their own, maybe too much was cut from that questline which resulted in sloppy writing.  Who knows!  But what we end up with is a game in which the Templars are excused their actions and we're made to feel sympathy for them (and that warrented - the Chantry screws them over and controls them just as they control the mages) but we're not given that for the mages.


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#142385
ChuChu

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Running eyeliner? Hellspirals? The thread seems even more melancholy than usual, today! :P

-passes around deep fried ice cream on little 'team optimism' plates-
 


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#142386
Kadan

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IMO the difference is that the narrative spells it out in the Wardens' case: Nightmare played off their fears and gave them just enough rope to hang themselves.  I'd assume the situation is similar with the rebel mages, but it's neither spelled out nor made very clear, which makes it easier to place all the moral blame for Redcliffe on Fiona and her fellow rebels.  Alexius is also a more sympathetic bad guy than the jerkface at Therinfal Redoubt, or Magister Erimond.  It's harder to put Alexius in the position of cackling villain behind the scenes when so much of his characterization is driven by his desperation to save his son.

 

 

Except the game does not make that clear.  You mention that in any anti-Fiona thread and you'll be asked for proof, told you're making things up and that you're ignoring canon.

And if you aren't careful they follow you back to the fort. <_<

 

Which is why you don't leave the Blanketfort!  Or you do and picture everyone out there as an angry yelling muppet  :lol:

 

 

:lol:

 

I've always been this way though; I find a cozy corner, and only venture out into the wider world of fandom after prodding it with a ten foot pole.  I had the Garrus thread in the Mass Effect fandom, and the Wolfstar shippers all the way back in the Harry Potter fandom.

 

 

 

While I've never liked Fiona, it had nothing to do with her being elven or female or in a position of authority.  She's an abrasive person, and IMO she's written to be a somewhat polarizing character.  So IMO it's perfectly plausible to dislike her for her personality and not her role in the story or her portrayal in DA:I.  Same goes for Morrigan or Miranda Lawson or Izzy.  On the guy's side, for Anders or Solas.

 

 

Or very derpy ones:

NsXyNMc.gif

 

I'm out of likes, which never happens this early! dangit! I had been holding them for special occasions, so someone must have run off with them. :lol:


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#142387
Illyria

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Running eyeliner? Hellspirals? The thread seems even more melancholy than usual, today! :P

-passes around deep fried ice cream on little 'team optimism' plates-
 

 

Thank you.

 

It's... been a while since I saw the sun recently *shakes fist at the weather*


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#142388
ComedicSociopathy

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Because people hated Fiona before she was in DAI.  Because some fans hate mages and hate elves and hate elven mages.  Because some fans hate any female character with authority, or who isn't available to them sexually (see: Sera), or who doesn't fit their mold of what is acceptable in a woman (so a loud, outspoken revolutionary elven mage isn't going to go over well).  Because elves are treated like crap by the narrative in order to add more 'grey' into the game and that makes people think that they deserve what they get.

 

Didn't people hate Fiona because she was supposedly something of retconing Mary Sue more then her being an elf? And while I love Sera there's other reasons why people would her hate beyond her being an elf. The elf thing though is sort of bad, but I really wasn't bothered by it until Trespasser revealed that a bunch of elves were going along with Solas's doomsday plan.

 

Everything else, Red Crossing and the Ancient Elves, just got a shrug from me. Perhaps its because I just naturally assumed that my ancient ancestors probably did horribly things that I wouldn't be proud of, so when that was revealed about the elves I didn't care and didn't see why'd it bother them so much. My great-great-great daddy being a jerk doesn't effect me. I suppose its different for the Dalish, but that clan in the Exalted Plains seemed to take Red Crossing in stride. Why can't the rest of the elves? 


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#142389
Elessara

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I assume everyone on the internet is an angry yelling muppet. Just felt and funny voice acting, and nobody will convince me otherwise. Except for maybe the Blanketfort, we're more like the singing muppet fruit. 

 

I AM NOT ANGRY OR YELLING YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

 

Oh, wait ...


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#142390
Illyria

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While I've never liked Fiona, it had nothing to do with her being elven or female or in a position of authority.  She's an abrasive person, and IMO she's written to be a somewhat polarizing character.  So IMO it's perfectly plausible to dislike her for her personality and not her role in the story or her portrayal in DA:I.  Same goes for Morrigan or Miranda Lawson or Izzy.  On the guy's side, for Anders or Solas.

 

I'm aware that not everyone is going to hate Fiona for these reasons.  Abrasive characters do tend to get under peoples skin.  But given as I love Carver, Fiona and Bianca (and like Miranda as a character as much as I hate her and her catsuit as a person) then this isn't something I have much trouble with.

 

But there are fans who hate her just for being elven and a mage.  But they're the same fans who hate any elves and mages.


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#142391
Sable Rhapsody

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No, the game doesn't let us know that Fiona was being controlled.  Maybe the devs excepted the players to figuring it out on their own, maybe too much was cut from that questline which resulted in sloppy writing.  Who knows!  But what we end up with is a game in which the Templars are excused their actions and we're made to feel sympathy for them (and that warrented - the Chantry screws them over and controls them just as they control the mages) but we're not given that for the mages.

 

IMO the best portrayal of the mage/templar conflict isn't in any of the games.  It's in Asunder.  We get a reasonable mage (Rhys) and a reasonable templar (Evangeline), and we see the situation mostly through their eyes.  

 

I thought DA:O was a bit too sympathetic toward the mages, DA:I toward the templars, and DA2 just made me hate all of them and want to throw them in a pit to kill each other.  Which I guess susses out to an overall balanced portrayal of the mages and templars across 3 games, but I would have preferred fewer nutty mages/templars and more reasonable ones like Rhys and Evangeline as major game characters or companions.


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#142392
ChuChu

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No, the game doesn't let us know that Fiona was being controlled.  Maybe the devs excepted the players to figuring it out on their own, maybe too much was cut from that questline which resulted in sloppy writing.  Who knows!  But what we end up with is a game in which the Templars are excused their actions and we're made to feel sympathy for them (and that warrented - the Chantry screws them over and controls them just as they control the mages) but we're not given that for the mages.

I felt, in general, both the Mage and Templar storylines kind of ended abruptly. You can do an add on to your castle, sure... it affects who Corypheus' puppet is, sure! But otherwise, I was really hoping we might have some more interaction with the faction leaders you conscripted/allied with, you know? :(


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#142393
ComedicSociopathy

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No, the game doesn't let us know that Fiona was being controlled.  Maybe the devs excepted the players to figuring it out on their own, maybe too much was cut from that questline which resulted in sloppy writing.  Who knows!  But what we end up with is a game in which the Templars are excused their actions and we're made to feel sympathy for them (and that warrented - the Chantry screws them over and controls them just as they control the mages) but we're not given that for the mages.

 

Fair enough. I get your pain. I think.

 

The Templars though aren't really excused for their actions. Their an organization of demon hunters that let a Envy Demon escape their notice. They look incompetent and stupid regardless of Lucius's manipulations. Also, while the lower ranked Templars didn't know about the red lyrium all the Commanders did and decide to swear their loyalty to a kicked out Templar from Kirkwall and an ancient magister darkspawn mage of all things. 

 

Oh. And they all stood their while said Envy Demon punched an old nun. 



#142394
Sable Rhapsody

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I felt, in general, both the Mage and Templar storylines kind of ended abruptly. You can do an add on to your castle, sure... it affects who Corypheus' puppet is, sure! But otherwise, I was really hoping we might have some more interaction with the faction leaders you conscripted/allied with, you know? :(

 

Especially the templars.  You get almost no follow-up with them until Cullen's epilogue in Trespasser.  Although I conscripted them, so I think I missed out on some war table stuff.



#142395
Illyria

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Didn't people hate Fiona because she was supposedly something of retconing Mary Sue more then her being an elf? And while I love Sera there's other reasons why people would hate beyond her being an elf. The elf thing though is sort of bad, but I really wasn't bothered by it until Trespasser revealed that a bunch of elves were going along with Solas's doomsday plan.

 

Everything else, Red Crossing and the Ancient Elves, just got a shrug from me. Perhaps its because I just naturally assumed that my ancient ancestors probably did horribly things that I wouldn't be proud of, so when that was revealed about the elves I didn't care and didn't see why'd it bother them so much. My great-great-great daddy being a jerk doesn't effect me much. I suppose its different for the Dalish, but that clan in the Exalted Plains seemed to take Red Crossing in stride. Why can't the rest of the elves? 

 

Some fans got a little... upset by being rejected by a pixel lesbian.  It had nothing to do with her being an elf and everything to do with her being the traditionally 'cute' LI and not being interested in men.  And the Red Crossing thing got nasty in the forum.  There was a lot of gloating about the how the elves derseved the March (which DAI retconned into not being a proper March because only Orlais took part).

 

Fiona doesn't retcon anything, and she has some Sue traits but no more than the HoF.



#142396
Elessara

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I'm aware that not everyone is going to hate Fiona for these reasons.  Abrasive characters do tend to get under peoples skin.  But given as I love Carver, Fiona and Bianca (and like Miranda as a character as much as I hate her and her catsuit as a person) then this isn't something I have much trouble with.

 

But there are fans who hate her just for being elven and a mage.  But they're the same fans who hate any elves and mages.

 

If it makes you feel better, I don't hate Fiona.  I feel a little sorry for her, given her position and Alistair - and how pretty much everything she didn't want to happen to her son did.  I didn't find her to be particularly abrasive in the game itself.  I haven't read Asunder.  And despite there being no evidence in the game I personally felt something fishy was going on with Fiona deciding to ally with Alexius.  The game doesn't come right out and beat us over the head with it but that doesn't mean something wasn't going on. 


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#142397
Sable Rhapsody

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Oh. And they all stood their while said Envy Demon punched an old nun. 

 

Am I a bad person for laughing during that scene?  :lol:


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#142398
Raeona

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These are all tiny things and they're not that bad on their own but they are rarely given any counter points.  Sera goes on about the Dalish being elfy elves, Vivienne get to spout crap about them and even an elf can't argue with her, and Solas has a whole 'you are not my people' thing going on.  And there's nothing to balance this.  Even playing as an elf we're not treated very well by the sole Dalish clan we meet.

 

It was strange how little Lavellan responded to insults against her elfiness. I wanted to play a super abrasive, team Elgar'nan, screw all you shems, type Lavellan. Instead I was forced to be respectful of everybody's religions while they laughed at mine. Sure, the Dalish beliefs are wrong, but so are the Chantry beliefs. I didn't even get the chance to laugh in their faces because the blight predates the magisters, why am I being forced into playing as a nice guy??

 

What gives Bioware? Where's my racist renegade Lavellan?


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#142399
Sable Rhapsody

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What gives Bioware? Where's my racist renegade Lavellan?

 

Left behind in DA:O  :lol:

 

The last time you could say really horrible, abrasive, racist things about people was ME1/DA:O.  I will admit to missing some of Renegade!Shep's more egregious comments.  And Tabris's knack for making shems really, REALLY uncomfortable.


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#142400
Illyria

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Fair enough. I get your pain. I think.

 

The Templars though aren't really excused for their actions. Their an organization of demon hunters that let a Envy Demon escape their notice. They look incompetent and stupid regardless of Lucius's manipulations. Also, while the lower ranked Templars didn't know about the red lyrium all the Commanders did and decide to swear their loyalty to a kicked out Templar from Kirkwall and an ancient magister darkspawn mage of all things. 

 

Oh. And they all stood their while said Envy Demon punched an old nun. 

 

Speaking of Samson - he's another character that got screwed over by the writing.  Cullen gets a redemption plot (despite not actually feeling much guilt over what he was complicit in during DA2) and Samson is treated as an irredeemable monster (personally, I think the plot would've worked better if Cullen was the leader of the Red Templars and Samson was the Commander of the Inquisitions forces).

 

By the way - love the Jasprosesprite icon.


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