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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#143726
SoSolaris

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I don't know if you've played the game with a vashoth inquisitor yet, but if you manage to get to the balcony scene, he makes a remark where he's surprised - he calls qunari brutal and/or savage, I forget which, but he at least implies that's his opinion of the whole race - and says that you're not like the rest of them.

It's meant to be a comment of respect but it's really derogatory at the same time, implying your race is inherently inferior and congratulating you on being not like them? Like, what a back-handed, ignorant compliment. I know my vashoth rogue was just internally like 'ok... no', nodded politely, and just passive-aggressively avoided Solas for the rest of the game, and he is the calmest, most easy-going character I ever played. I'm afraid what'll happen when my vashoth mage gets to that stage, she values her friendship with Solas much more, I reckon if the option existed she'd kick him off the balcony at that point.

I think that's the only really racist thing Solas has said, and I'd almost be willing to argue that it's out of sync with some of his other views on the qun and the qunari, there was a discussion not that long ago about a banter where he argues, conversely, that the qunari are not inherently savage monsters, it's just the qun that teaches them to think of themselves that way. That's at odds with the dialogue on the balcony.

I think you're correct to argue that disagreeing with a religious doctrine does not in any way or form make someone racist. However, that one remark irked me as a player.


Yikes, I watched the scene on youtube and it was even more harsh that I imagined. That's some straight colonial nonsense, and the backhanded compliment made it even worse. I wish there was a dialogue option to call him out on it, regardless of metagaming.

Odd that it conflicts with the other banter you mentioned, as well. I'm trying to think of a way to reconcile the banter and this scene, but my brain is tired
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#143727
Elessara

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Please write this.

 

7582720_4794.jpg

 

Side note:  That pic was the background on my work computer for the longest time until one our IT people came by to look at something else, noticed it and went how did you get that on your background?!  Apparently we weren't supposed to be able to put our own pics as backgrounds.  And then they took it away.  -_-



#143728
midnight tea

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Yikes, I watched the scene on youtube and it was even more harsh that I imagined. That's some straight colonial nonsense, and the backhanded compliment made it even worse. I wish there was a dialogue option to call him out on it, regardless of metagaming.

Odd that it conflicts with the other banter you mentioned, as well. I'm trying to think of a way to reconcile the banter and this scene, but my brain is tired

 

I think it has more to do with ideology - I mean, it seems that Solas tinks that nurture is way more important than nature, and given that they all exist in the world where idea or sentiment can pretty literally become real, the way a being develops or what ideology they follow or what they were shaped is way more important than origin. One has to save the Chargers to see just how differently he treats Bull - he outright declares that he'd be there for him in case Bull had a breakdown, or was confused about what should he do, now that he's deciding things for himself.

He's sympathetic towards Tal-Vashoth, though he's first to admit that many of them indeed turn into violent beasts - but not because such is their nature, but because they were taught that they are beasts without the Qun. Many Tal-Vashoth sadly succumb to that, hence there are not that many that managed to actually fully leave the Qun religion and its destructive influences behind.

 

The fact that majority of people are cut away from the Fade and live paltry few years is also certainly a factor in how easily a person can free themselves of the confines of environment and ideology they were raised in, which likely strongly influences Solas' perception. Since the world is so bleak and living beings are diminished and short-lived (and oftentimes oppressed and not well-educated too) he's very pessimistic about people being able to grow into something more than what they were initially made/reduced to, or had grown around. It's pretty much what he thinks about all modern people, regardless of race or affiliation, hence highly approved Inquisitor of any background never fails to surprise him.

 

Also... I have to admit I'm confused with how often people use the word "racist" to things that aren't necessarily that. Like the Dalish. Saying that Solas is racist against Dalish is like saying that someone is racist against Polish or Catholic, or that that by extension means that someone is racist against white people. It's.... uh - the culture or religion may be strongly associated with given ethnicity, but it's not intrinsically tied to someone's race.

 

This is also why, in the balcony scene, with the Dalish Inky, he seems surprised that the Dalish managed to "raise someone with the spirit like theirs" and outright tells romanced Lavellan that they've succeeded in "making" her (or at least not impeding her development, I assume). Again - culture, not the race.

 

Plus, Solas seems to make distinctions among people based on who the follow rather than who they were born as - even in Trespasser when he mentions Mythal he says that "she protected HER people" not OUR people, even though certainly the majority of people under Mythal's care must have been ancient elves. He also likely means that anyone Inquisition protects - regardless of race or culture - is "your" people.


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#143729
S.W.

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Yeah... every time he gets all pompous and says, "I was the foremost expert on demons in the Kirkwall Circle," I wanted to say, "Yeah, and Kirkwall is notorious for having gotten overrun by rogue demons and abominations, which started this whole Mage/Templar War. Clearly you guys don't know what you're doing."
 
I headcanon that while they were taken back to Skyhold, now everyone knows of their incompetence, and they are not allowed to live it down. All the sensible rebel mages and Cullen have them under constant scrutiny, they're not allowed to so much as look at a magic book without supervision, and everyone constantly throws their idiot mistakes back in their faces.


I thought the mage/templar war only began a couple of years after the Kirkwall chantry explosion, and was triggered after the discovery of a tranquil cure, by Grand Enchanter calling for a vote to abolish the circles?

I always headcanon the Orsino fight doesn't occur if you side with the mages since it literally makes no sense (coincidently: I love that you can call Varric out on that, and that he disapproves if you do). I'm pretty sure the devs just wanted to throw in another boss monster. Even then, I don't really blame any mage from Kirkwall for having a substandard education given the treatment of the mages there.

I usually let Solas kill the mages anyway - most of my inquisitors have very low opinions of demon-summoning (possibly comes with the role of fighting demons for a living), and were too exhausted to object by that point, so from an RP point of view it works. I still feel sorry for them, the poor sods.

#143730
Sable Rhapsody

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Side note:  That pic was the background on my work computer for the longest time until one our IT people came by to look at something else, noticed it and went how did you get that on your background?!  Apparently we weren't supposed to be able to put our own pics as backgrounds.  And then they took it away.   -_-

 

Puss in Boots greatly approves of you, and greatly disapproves of your IT person  :P

 


I thought the mage/templar war only began a couple of years after the Kirkwall chantry explosion, and was triggered after the discovery of a tranquil cure, by Grand Enchanter calling for a vote to abolish the circles?
 
The mage/templar war didn't begin in earnest until a few years later, but Kirkwall sort of lit the fuse on the powder keg that had been building for quite a while.  It probably would have happened eventually no matter what anybody did.  The Circle system was fundamentally broken.  But Kirkwall forced the issue into the spotlight, and things rapidly deteriorated from there.

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#143731
NightSymphony

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Well, I am most annoyed. I need a DVI cable to plug in my monitor and all I have are VGA.  <_< Can't go buy one until the weekend. *sighs*



#143732
almasy87

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Mh. I forgot about the advice I read in this thread when I joined.. the advice about adventuring outside the thread..
Specially adventuring in posts full of Solas haters.

:crying: 

But I will not be brought down!  :bandit:


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#143733
Sable Rhapsody

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Mh. I forgot about the advice I read in this thread when I joined.. the advice about adventuring outside the thread..
Specially adventuring in posts full of Solas haters.

:crying:

But I will not be brought down! :bandit:


Meh, more egghead for us :P
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#143734
Cee

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Well, I am most annoyed. I need a DVI cable to plug in my monitor and all I have are VGA.  <_< Can't go buy one until the weekend. *sighs*

 

Soon though. Soon! :) You waited this long.


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#143735
NightSymphony

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Yes..you're right...but I hate waiting. :-P



#143736
SoSolaris

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I think it has more to do with ideology - I mean, it seems that Solas tinks that nurture is way more important than nature, and given that they all exist in the world where idea or sentiment can pretty literally become real, the way a being develops or what ideology they follow or what they were shaped is way more important than origin. One has to save the Chargers to see just how differently he treats Bull - he outright declares that he'd be there for him in case Bull had a breakdown, or was confused about what should he do, now that he's deciding things for himself.
He's sympathetic towards Tal-Vashoth, though he's first to admit that many of them indeed turn into violent beasts - but not because such is their nature, but because they were taught that they are beasts without the Qun. Many Tal-Vashoth sadly succumb to that, hence there are not that many that managed to actually fully leave the Qun religion and its destructive influences behind.

The fact that majority of people are cut away from the Fade and live paltry few years is also certainly a factor in how easily a person can free themselves of the confines of environment and ideology they were raised in, which likely strongly influences Solas' perception. Since the world is so bleak and living beings are diminished and short-lived (and oftentimes oppressed and not well-educated too) he's very pessimistic about people being able to grow into something more than what they were initially made/reduced to, or had grown around. It's pretty much what he thinks about all modern people, regardless of race or affiliation, hence highly approved Inquisitor of any background never fails to surprise him.

Also... I have to admit I'm confused with how often people use the word "racist" to things that aren't necessarily that. Like the Dalish. Saying that Solas is racist against Dalish is like saying that someone is racist against Polish or Catholic, or that that by extension means that someone is racist against white people. It's.... uh - the culture or religion may be strongly associated with given ethnicity, but it's not intrinsically tied to someone's race.

This is also why, in the balcony scene, with the Dalish Inky, he seems surprised that the Dalish managed to "raise someone with the spirit like theirs" and outright tells romanced Lavellan that they've succeeded in "making" her (or at least not impeding her development, I assume). Again - culture, not the race.

Plus, Solas seems to make distinctions among people based on who the follow rather than who they were born as - even in Trespasser when he mentions Mythal he says that "she protected HER people" not OUR people, even though certainly the majority of people under Mythal's care must have been ancient elves. He also likely means that anyone Inquisition protects - regardless of race or culture - is "your" people.

Interesting! For example, one is not violent because of how they are, but because of how one was raised. I'm more amenable to that, particularly because I can draw on several real life equivalents. An individual who is raised and taught in a particular culture, a culture that may also have been influenced by history and shaped by experiences both global and local. More than likely the individual will adopt the same thoughts and ideas of that culture and may find it difficult to stray as they grow into adulthood. Basic psychosociological principles, of course.

The problem is when people outside of that culture ignore how it nurtured the individual, and misjudge their character based on a supposed nature. That then leads into racism, and without any other context, it is incredibly easy to condemn Solas for what he says in the cutscene with a Vashoth. Even with context, one may condemn him.

You mentioned that Solas makes distinctions based on the ideology one follows rather than what they actually are. I hope I'm understanding all this right, because if not then the next several paragraphs are gonna be a waste lol. Anyways, I think that readily falls in line with his general character, but I want to draw back toward the cutscene because it still mildly confuses me.

I find it difficult to glean that sentiment from this scene. He states simply "Qunari are savage creatures. Their ferocity held in check only by the rigid teachings of the Qun." I don't think he is referring to their culture here, but the people themselves. I'm still not certain if he is referring to viddathari and/or the horned race, but I'm leaning more towards the latter due to how he relates it to the Vashoth Inquisitor.

To me, he is making an assumption based upon their nature, and relegates their ideology, their culture, to the lesser effect. That the Qun is the only thing to "contain" their nature, as it were. It can definitely be argued that the Qun can feed into this supposed ferocity, and its strict teachings and consequential beliefs influence a large number of Tal-Vashoth into becoming violent as a result of knowing nothing else.

But he's not really saying that, or at least not from what I'm reading into. He's saying something else: that without the Qun, their natural "savagery" would be uncontained. Maybe it would have been more clear if he related their nature to being an influence of the ideology, instead of just leaving it as face value.

This is all very interesting though. I'm open to any more thoughts you have on the subject!

"Saying that Solas is racist against Dalish is like saying that someone is racist against Polish or Catholic, or that that by extension means that someone is racist against white people. It's.... uh - the culture or religion may be strongly associated with given ethnicity, but it's not intrinsically tied to someone's race.

Also, I agree with this. He doesn't specify criticism against the Dalish elves as a race, exactly, but the Dalish as a culture. However, as to your last point, I just kind of want to go on a brief aside. A culture may not equal race entirely, true, but bigoted and fundamentally racist societal influences can affect a large part of the culture.

I think of a real life equivalent in Muslims, and how racism is undoubtedly a factor in how they are treated, influencing the resentment against their separate religion. This treatment in turn, can leave damaging effects upon the culture and behavior of segments of Muslim society. Black Muslims can have different racial motivations and issues than Arab Muslims, while both may experience distinct forms of racism and prejudice against their communities and even with each other.
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#143737
fangs4fun

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:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  

 

When Solas and I finally decide to meet each other IRL. 

 

VtM745x.gif

 


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#143738
Illyria

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Mh. I forgot about the advice I read in this thread when I joined.. the advice about adventuring outside the thread..
Specially adventuring in posts full of Solas haters.

:crying: 

But I will not be brought down!  :bandit:

 

which thread was this?



#143739
almasy87

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which thread was this?

It's the "Why all the hate for Solas?" thread :P

Sure I do understand that people are entitled to think in different ways. And I'm ok with people saying that he's in a genocidal frenzy and all :P

But it does make me a bit sad when I read of how "he was useless and unhelpful to the Inquisition", "worse than Corypheus" "vile" "racist" bla bla bla bla bla. It's like some people don't even try to analyze the characters they interact with >.<

Anyway dunno if it was posted before (probably it was!) but I found this:

tumblr_nnf0xvTumO1qhvyw2o1_500.jpg so cute!

And accidentally found her shop https://society6.com...hinsworks/cases
MY PHONE NEEDS THIS!  (i just bought another cover a week ago) sob sigh


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#143740
Sable Rhapsody

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But it does make me a bit sad when I read of how "he was useless and unhelpful to the Inquisition", "worse than Corypheus" "vile" "racist" bla bla bla bla bla. It's like some people don't even try to analyze the characters they interact with >.<

 

Of course they don't.  They're interested in being right, not in peeling back the layers of the character  :rolleyes: Remember, Muppets!

 

giphy.gif


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#143741
SoSolaris

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It's the "Why all the hate for Solas?" thread :P

Sure I do understand that people are entitled to think in different ways. And I'm ok with people saying that he's in a genocidal frenzy and all :P

But it does make me a bit sad when I read of how "he was useless and unhelpful to the Inquisition", "worse than Corypheus" "vile" "racist" bla bla bla bla bla. It's like some people don't even try to analyze the characters they interact with >.<


I get you. Aside from this one, there are quite a few Solas threads across the DAI forums right now. Haven't opened any one of them for the sake of my peace of mind. It just all gets pretty tiring, and I think I'm already full up on reading character hate (polite criticism notwithstanding) after being a fan of Kaidan AND Ash from Mass Effect for so long.
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#143742
Sable Rhapsody

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which thread was this?

 

Don't do it.  That way lies at least 1d6 sanity loss.  Think about kittens instead!

 

kitties.jpeg


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#143743
Cee

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Okay, which one of you is that alert kitty trying to distract everyone with cuteness to cover up putting the one below in that headlock? :?


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#143744
almasy87

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Yeah she's right :P

I tried to express how I feel but I got bored now. Forget it. Let them think what they want.


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#143745
almasy87

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*sorry for double post* Grr plus I am kinda angry at myself. Earlier on the phone I saw somewhere a nice artwork of Solas I wanted to save. But I said "forget it, I'll save it from the pc when I get home" and closed the page, sure I would remember where it was.

And now I don't remeber.  :angry: Why, oh why!?



#143746
fangs4fun

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Oh, I had no idea the mages were from Kirkwall! Do you have a source for that?
 

I don't know if you've played the game with a vashoth inquisitor yet, but if you manage to get to the balcony scene, he makes a remark where he's surprised - he calls qunari brutal and/or savage, I forget which, but he at least implies that's his opinion of the whole race - and says that you're not like the rest of them.

I think you're correct to argue that disagreeing with a religious doctrine does not in any way or form make someone racist. However, that one remark irked me as a player.

 

Re: Kirkwall mages.  Has been answered already but that mage introduced themselves as such.  Not only does he have a face that says "kill on sight!", his attitude and hearing Kirkwall mage made it easier for me to let Solas murder 'em.

 

My first playthrough was actually a Qunari lady.  I had that balcony scene with him.  I was not bothered at all by his comments.  I completely agree with him about Qunari species and the Qun. 

 

I find it difficult to glean that sentiment from this scene. He states simply "Qunari are savage creatures. Their ferocity held in check only by the rigid teachings of the Qun." I don't think he is referring to their culture here, but the people themselves. I'm still not certain if he is referring to viddathari and/or the horned race, but I'm leaning more towards the latter due to how he relates it to the Vashoth Inquisitor.

To me, he is making an assumption based upon their nature, and relegates their ideology, their culture, to the lesser effect. That the Qun is the only thing to "contain" their nature, as it were. It can definitely be argued that the Qun can feed into this supposed ferocity, and its strict teachings and consequential beliefs influence a large number of Tal-Vashoth into becoming violent as a result of knowing nothing else.

But he's not really saying that, or at least not from what I'm reading into. He's saying something else: that without the Qun, their natural "savagery" would be uncontained. Maybe it would have been more clear if he related their nature to being an influence of the ideology, instead of just leaving it as face value.

This is all very interesting though. I'm open to any more thoughts you have on the subject!

"Saying that Solas is racist against Dalish is like saying that someone is racist against Polish or Catholic, or that that by extension means that someone is racist against white people. It's.... uh - the culture or religion may be strongly associated with given ethnicity, but it's not intrinsically tied to someone's race.

Also, I agree with this. He doesn't specify criticism against the Dalish elves as a race, exactly, but the Dalish as a culture. However, as to your last point, I just kind of want to go on a brief aside. A culture may not equal race entirely, true, but bigoted and fundamentally racist societal influences can affect a large part of the culture.

I think of a real life equivalent in Muslims, and how racism is undoubtedly a factor in how they are treated, influencing the resentment against their separate religion. This treatment in turn, can leave damaging effects upon the culture and behavior of segments of Muslim society. Black Muslims can have different racial motivations and issues than Arab Muslims, while both may experience distinct forms of racism and prejudice against their communities and even with each other.

 

My thoughts are colored by how I view the horned race.  I think their nature is savage.  I liken them to wild animals that can be domesticated but their wild nature will still come out from time to time.

 

In that specific balcony scene, Solas was criticizing both the race and the ideology.  I can understand why some people are offended by what he said and may consider it a back handed compliment.  IMO, what he said was true.  My Adaar may be a special snowflake but IMO sooner or later would give in to nature.  It's why she's a mercenary.  She just has more control of her baser Qunari instincts.  Other than Adaar, I don't really recall any non-savage other horned people in-game.

 

Even Iron Bull agrees with Solas about the Qun and Qunari savagery:

  • Sera: So you're free now or something? Must be nice to get rid of those Ben-Hasreholes.
  • Iron Bull: You mean getting exiled from my people and declared Tal-Valshoth? Yeah, I should make a cake.
  • Sera: You like drinking and singing and breaking beds. You'd already left.
  • Iron Bull: The Qun keeps our savage nature in check. Without it, if I lose control...
  • Sera: Pfft, heard that before. Don't worry. You get growly, I'll kick your arse.
  • Iron Bull: Thank you.


#143747
fangs4fun

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Another old post that's worth reviving because this is a very good observation and worth discussing. 

 

I was looking around other threads and saw one about how irratating it's going to be that, no matter how the player chose to take the Herald of Andraste title, history is going to remeber them as the Herald and the Inquisition as an Andrastian order.

 

And it struck me: this is what the game is all about.  No matter what we do, history will remember the player as the Herald of an Andrastian Inquisition.  It's the same way history will always remember Fen'Harel as a traitor.  It doesn't matter what actions we take, the only thing that matters is how history remembers us.

 

It comes up constantly in the game - Cassandra's version of Dawn of the Seeker, Alistair's sarcasm about the events of the Fifth Blight, Fen'Harel being remembered as a traitor, Celene (in TME) muses that for all she wanted to be a scholar and a peacemaker she's going to be remembered as the woman who destoryed an empire.

 

It's not just Solas' actions that tell us we should re-evaulate our view of Fen'Harel, the entire game tell us this.

 

I was annoyed that when I played by Adaar and Lavellan, I couldn't stop people from calling me the herald of Andraste.  And more frustrating is that 2 years later in Trespasser, people seemed to have forgotten the good that the Inquisitor did.


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#143748
midnight tea

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Another old post that's worth reviving because this is a very good observation and worth discussing. 

 

 

I was annoyed that when I played by Adaar and Lavellan, I couldn't stop people from calling me the herald of Andraste.  And more frustrating is that 2 years later in Trespasser, people seemed to have forgotten the good that the Inquisitor did.

 

Mine thought it was annoying, but also couldn't help to be amused with the irony - the Herald of Andraste being NOT being who people have expected them to be and seeing their mind explode or bend over backwards while trying to rationalize all this xD

 

Also - it gave her something to think about... or more like, basically provide her with a confirmation of what she's been wondering about earlier - if so many things could be twisted and exaggerated while the "Herald of Andraste" - or any prominent person, really - still lived, what's the guarantee that things were further twisted through thousands of years of predominantly oral and scattered tradition? Like, you know... one surrounding Creators and all?

 

As for all the good Inquisition's done being easily forgotten... well, it's not like it wasn't expected. Even right after defeating Corypheus Inquisitor is shown to be pretty aware that it might happen, and happen pretty rapidly (they say "the fighting's over, what would the nobles want from me now?" to Leliana).

... AND if they happen to be influential or their power kept growing, it's no wonder that everyone in power might have felt threatened, hence they probably didn't just forget about all the good Inquisition's done, but might've even twisted it into either something insignificant or perhaps even detrimental. That's how it is, sadly - especially if Inquisition was a force that, say, supports controversial reforms or perhaps controversial Divines...



#143749
Ellawynn

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It's the "Why all the hate for Solas?" thread :P

Sure I do understand that people are entitled to think in different ways. And I'm ok with people saying that he's in a genocidal frenzy and all :P

But it does make me a bit sad when I read of how "he was useless and unhelpful to the Inquisition", "worse than Corypheus" "vile" "racist" bla bla bla bla bla. It's like some people don't even try to analyze the characters they interact with >.<
 

 

Really? I actually found that thread quite optimistic. Oh, sure, there's the usual round of posters who violently despise Solas, but the majority opinion seem skewed in "He's alright, but should probably lay off that whole apocalypse thing" direction. It may not give the rosiest view of his character, but it's far better than what I expected.


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#143750
almasy87

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Really? I actually found that thread quite optimistic. Oh, sure, there's the usual round of posters who violently despise Solas, but the majority opinion seem skewed in "He's alright, but should probably lay off that whole apocalypse thing" direction. It may not give the rosiest view of his character, but it's far better than what I expected.

Sure, it's not that bad. It was a mix of that and the "Dear Fen'harel" thread that made me sad :-P but I do recognize that there are people who have a more neutral view of him.
It's just a few posts, as you said, but since I just started adventuring more out there on the forums it still hurts some times o>_<o~
I guess there is even worse around? :-P