Or Solas will try to recreate his world only to find that his will is not greater than other people's so we end up with a bunch of competing creations instead.
That would be really freaking cool if BioWare can pull it off. They already went for time travel plot, why not a multiple reality plot.
Stuff like this is why I think (or at least hope) the story is more complex than Solas destroying the world. There's so much opportunity for interesting and wacky storytelling when you break something as integral as the Veil. We already did the "world is ending" plot with the Breach anyway.
That would be really freaking cool if BioWare can pull it off. They already went for time travel plot, why not a multiple reality plot.
Stuff like this is why I think (or at least hope) the story is more complex than Solas destroying the world. There's so much opportunity for interesting and wacky storytelling when you break something as integral as the Veil. We already did the "world is ending" plot with the Breach anyway.
Sadly I don't know if Bioware is brave enough to go with something this crazy haha
Solas' obsession with Lavellan, Solas' desperate internal doubts of his judgements of the tranquil world. Of the guilt he is convicted of and its arresting his brief uncontrolled desire for any kind of intimacy.
IMO Solas seems reasonably certain that his plan will not end well for modern Thedas, including the elves. And he steels himself to go through with it regardless. That's pretty unambiguous.
Here's the catch: he might not be right in his predictions. Raising the Veil had huge, unintended consequences, and I think lowering it will too. The Veil is not a big green light switch, even if Solas wants to treat it like one And there are more forces at play than just the Wolf. Remember, Loghain thought he was defending Ferelden from Orlesian influence, and Meredith thought she was protecting Kirkwall. That genuine belief didn't mean they were correct in their assumptions, and I don't think we should assume everything Solas says will come to pass either.
Maybe some gremlins will survive and reconnect with magic. Maybe the Titans wake up. Maybe the dwarves regain their connection with the Titans. Maybe spirits start to gain bodies like Cole. Personally, I'll be a little disappointed if the story turns out to be as simple as "Drop Veil, world ends."
This is the stuff of truly excellently crafted antagonists, not ones who are blatantly evil and love destructive chaos for its own sake, etc. A good antagonist truly believes in some goal that might even be noble if you examine it in abstraction, and definitely someone who people can relate to, despite their opposing position in the story you witness.
Ugh, I'll be so disappointed if Bioware bends to those who just want it to be simple good vs. evil. That's such a boring set-up. :| Although, given how many times I've seen the likes of Loghain and Meredith forced into that dichotomy, trying to overcome it might be a pointless effort. Still though, the whole point to Dragon Age is that it was supposed to be a more morally ambiguous alternative to Mass Effect (Hence the lack of a universal morality system) Hopefully this trend is carried forward...
As for having to choose between Fen'Harel or the Inquisition - oh my God, I am so on board with that. Especially since I head-canon that, between Solas' betrayal and the Council's hostility, Trespasser turned my Lavellan into a somewhat ruthless paranoiac. I'd love it if Trespasser became an official start of darkness for the Inquisition.
...But I suspect I might be in the minority on that.
I mean, just look at the reaction to Hawke. If BioWare went anywhere near a player character (Even a former one) with the words "morally ambiguous," I can only imagine how upset it'd make people who insist on their Inquisitor being a pure-hearted hero type. Maybe you could make their ambiguity be an unintended side-effect of certain actions - but then again, look at Hawke. Look at how many people hate them for their perceived powerlessness and incompetence. Not to say all or even most people would be upset, but... I've noticed some players seem to dislike the implication that their PC can actually have flaws.
This is why I love BioWare. They haven't disappointed me so far in creating protagonists and antagonists that don't fit one simplistic definition. They are dynamic and wonderful. So I'm trusting that the plot of DA4 will be just as filled with difficult choices and morally gray results.
Alright, I'm not going to flow into this new argument now, but one detail gripped me and I'd like to expand upon that: what do you guys think about Solas' reaction to the Grey Wardens, their plan with the Archdemons, the Blights, etc?
Originally we were speculating that maybe the Evanuris might be the Archdemons, but that seems increasingly unlikely, yet there's still his oddly vehement reaction to the things you find out at Adamant. And his intense dislike of Grey Wardens. So, what's the new take on this?
Alright, I'm not going to flow into this new argument now, but one detail gripped me and I'd like to expand upon that: what do you guys think about Solas' reaction to the Grey Wardens, their plan with the Archdemons, the Blights, etc?
Originally we were speculating that maybe the Evanuris might be the Archdemons, but that seems increasingly unlikely, yet there's still his oddly vehement reaction to the things you find out at Adamant. And his intense dislike of Grey Wardens. So, what's the new take on this?
I'd say that he's not really holding back when it comes to why he dislikes Wardens: he thinks they're fools that are toying with forces they don't understand; worse - they corrupt themselves with it. And this is a huge no-no in Solas book apparently; he thinks whatever the Blight touches, it corrupts. It's not a force that can be mastered or 'smugly outwitted'.
There's also one other thing - from his reaction to Wardens while talking with Inky on negative approval path:
Spoiler
Inky: "Grey Wardens know more about the Blight than anyone else. They're our best hope of fighting it."
Solas: "If that is true, then (sighs)... Let us hope otherwise. For all our sakes."
He slightly approves when Inky points out that Grey Wardens are so far the bets hope against the Blight as if he's reluctantly conceding, only to confirm that apparently he himself knows little what to do with the issue of the Blight. It's a force that apparently he himself either doesn't know that much about or doesn't really know how to stop it, otherwise why would he be hoping that there's someone better than Wardens to save the world from it? (and not at all implying that it would be him)
And that's after creating the Veil, the one of purposes of which was supposed to prevent the Blight from spreading, or so Cole implies in one of his cryptic comments in Trespasser: "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap."
... I mean... at least that's assuming that "old dreams" are the Blight or something connected to it.
Alright, I'm not going to flow into this new argument now, but one detail gripped me and I'd like to expand upon that: what do you guys think about Solas' reaction to the Grey Wardens, their plan with the Archdemons, the Blights, etc?
Originally we were speculating that maybe the Evanuris might be the Archdemons, but that seems increasingly unlikely, yet there's still his oddly vehement reaction to the things you find out at Adamant. And his intense dislike of Grey Wardens. So, what's the new take on this?
I don't know what to make of it, but then my lore-fu isn't anything to shout about. I did find his reaction to the Adamant situation kind of odd. In hindsight I'm all the more suspicious about it. There's also that banter he has with Varric where he says that the Wardens have bought 'us' some time. Time before what?? What's on the horizon, Solas? Do share.
Personally, I'll be a little disappointed if the story turns out to be as simple as "Drop Veil, world ends."
One of the few things I think we can say for certain is that the Veil's going to drop one way or another. The game has consistently raised the question of what a world without a Veil wold be like, consistently made that promise to the player - hell, Sandal hands you a damn prophecy about it! People like to say that prophecy isn't proof of anything because stories change over time - but everything we've seen about the Elvhenan arc shows that it's been planned from the beginning. It's probably the kernel the entire rest of the franchise was built around. I find it very hard to believe they'd make such a massive promise about it, only to change gears without explanation - it'd be like Mass Effect ending without ever showing us the Reaper fleet.
But if the Veil dropping means the necessary destruction of the world, then it'd be a pretty awful ending, yeah? Which means one of two things - the Veil will never drop (And provide a complete anti-climax in doing so) or it won't irreversibly destroy everything in doing so.
So, you know, the logical conclusion is that the Veil disappearing won't kill everything. Dunno why some people seem so opposed to the idea. *Shrug* I guess some just want to deny Solas any hint of success in anything.
Alright, I'm not going to flow into this new argument now, but one detail gripped me and I'd like to expand upon that: what do you guys think about Solas' reaction to the Grey Wardens, their plan with the Archdemons, the Blights, etc?
Originally we were speculating that maybe the Evanuris might be the Archdemons, but that seems increasingly unlikely, yet there's still his oddly vehement reaction to the things you find out at Adamant. And his intense dislike of Grey Wardens. So, what's the new take on this?
I took it as near-confirmation that killing all the archdemons means a never-ending Blight on the surface as the darkspawn lose the one thing distracting them. Explains his "buy us time" comment, too.
Not to mention that the Wardens are made via blight magic, which Solas denounces as inherently evil and corrupting. And for all we know, those Old Gods might've been Solas' friends. He's probably rather pissed at the idea of Wardens trying to kill them instead of saving them from corruption or something.
(Yes I will cling to the "Old Gods = Forgotten Ones" theory until you've pried it from my dead, fangirl-y fingers.)
One of the few things I think we can say for certain is that the Veil's going to drop one way or another. The game has consistently raised the question of what a world without a Veil wold be like, consistently made that promise to the player - hell, Sandal hands you a damn prophecy about it! People like to say that prophecy isn't proof of anything because stories change over time - but everything we've seen about the Elvhenan arc shows that it's been planned from the beginning. It's probably the kernel the entire rest of the franchise was built around. I find it very hard to believe they'd make such a massive promise about it, only to change gears without explanation - it'd be like Mass Effect ending without ever showing us the Reaper fleet.
But if the Veil dropping means the necessary destruction of the world, then it'd be a pretty awful ending, yeah? Which means one of two things - the Veil will never drop (And provide a complete anti-climax in doing so) or it won't irreversibly destroy everything in doing so.
So, you know, the logical conclusion is that the Veil disappearing won't kill everything. Dunno why some people seem so opposed to the idea. *Shrug* I guess some just want to deny Solas any hint of success in anything.
I expect the Veil to come down too. I'm actually quite excited by the prospect and what it means for the future of Thedas.
Are people really opposed to the idea of the Veil not killing everyone, or are they upset that Solas is prepared for it to happen? Two different things.
I'd say that he's not really holding back when it comes to why he dislikes Wardens: he thinks they're fools that are toying with forces they don't understand; worse - they corrupt themselves with it. And this is a huge no-no in Solas book apparently; he thinks whatever the Blight touches, it corrupts. It's not a force that can be mastered or 'smugly outwitted'.
There's also one other thing - from his reaction to Wardens while talking with Inky on negative approval path:
Spoiler
Inky: "Grey Wardens know more about the Blight than anyone else. They're our best hope of fighting it."
Solas: "If that is true, then (sighs)... Let us hope otherwise. For all our sakes."
He slightly approves when Inky points out that Grey Wardens are so far the bets hope against the Blight as if he's reluctantly conceding, only to confirm that apparently he himself knows little what to do with the issue of the Blight. It's a force that apparently he himself either doesn't know that much about or doesn't really know how to stop it, otherwise why would he be hoping that there's someone better than Wardens to save the world from it? (and not at all implying that it would be him)
And that's after creating the Veil, the one of purposes of which was supposed to prevent the Blight from spreading, or so Cole implies in one of his cryptic comments in Trespasser: "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap."
... I mean... at least that's assuming that "old dreams" are the Blight or something connected to it.
I took it as near-confirmation that killing all the archdemons means a never-ending Blight on the surface as the darkspawn lose the one thing distracting them. Explains his "buy us time" comment, too.
Not to mention that the Wardens are made via blight magic, which Solas denounces as inherently evil and corrupting. And for all we know, those Old Gods might've been Solas' friends. He's probably rather pissed at the idea of Wardens trying to kill them instead of saving them from corruption or something.
(Yes I will cling to the "Old Gods = Forgotten Ones" theory until you've pried it from my dead, fangirl-y fingers.)
I don't know what to make of it, but then my lore-fu isn't anything to shout about. I did find his reaction to the Adamant situation kind of odd. In hindsight I'm all the more suspicious about it. There's also that banter he has with Varric where he says that the Wardens have bought 'us' some time. Time before what?? What's on the horizon, Solas? Do share.
Summary: OK, going on that wolf chewing his leg off insight, this would imply to me that the Evanuris were so dangerous because of the Blight, so in some way they are connected. I can understand his horror about the Grey Wardens if he considers their willing submission to the Taint as something akin to fighting fire with fire. Also, it makes sense that the old dreams would be the Blight. Still... I have to wonder. He seems to know a lot more about this than he lets on and I have to wonder what he expects of people considering that without the Grey Wardens, the Blight would have consumed the world utterly long ago.
Question is, what's the "better" solution he so vaguely hints at? Surely he has at least an idea if he can be so condemning about the Grey Wardens as going about it the wrong way?
So, going on old dreams: that implies that the Blight predates anything the Evanuris did. I'll have to chew on what that would mean about the world. Perhaps a huge cataclysm in the past destroyed a first civilization and the new one (the ancient elves) accidentally tapped into it?
*gasp* It's Wheel of Timeagain. The "forgotten" Dark One which in the Age of Legends they believed to be a new source of power to channel, which lead them to create the Bore, that lead to their downfall and the Breaking (the Veil) and then the Third Age came around (Dragon Age) when (possibly?) we have a chance to "remove the old seals (the Veil)" which were an imperfect patch-prison on the Dark One and craft an entirely new, whole sealing.
I think one of the mysteries of Dragon Age I'm most curious about is Eleni Zinovia. We know what the Chant and the myth say (her husband trapping her in stone as punishment for predicting his downfall) and from what she herself tells us there seems to be a lot of truth in that. But how was it done? We saw Solas petrify enemies, but they did not seem able to speak. There are two similar cases I can recall: the brothers of stone and the petrified pirates. All seem to have been cursed by magisters, but only the latter can be released from the spell.
Zinovia seem to possess great knowledge of both the future and the past, but how? If it was because of the fade she shouldn't be able to connect with it after being petrified, yet she still tells prophecies. It is interesting to note that if you play the mage origin in DA:O she tells you "Weep for me not child, stone they made me and stone I am, eternal and unfeeling, and I shall endure until the Maker returns to light their fires again". The part about being unfeeling almost sounds like she is tranquil, but when we meet her in Awakening the tears in the Veil seem to affect her mind a lot (indicating a connection to the fade?). Also, whose fire is the Maker supposed to light? Is that part metaphorical of physical?
In her disoriented state she also says "The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all...". A breached prison might indicate the Evanuris breaking free, but it might also reference a future blight. Zinovia also says shadow, not shadows, which makes me think that there is another threat lurking (although it is possible that she is talking about Corypheus... however, he wasn't even close to "consume all").
And now the part that most confuses me, given the new information from Trespasser: Zinovia said that after the fall of Arlathan some elven fugitives managed to save a couple of eluvians, and they were given refuge at Cadash Thaig. Zinovia said "Their sorrow awoke the Stone, and her children sheltered them. They found sanctuary in the deep halls of Cad'halash, now known as Cadash". I will be the first one to admit that I don't understand the relationship between the Stone and the Titans, but obviously they are connected... so why would the Stone care for the suffering of the people involved in the destruction of the Titans? Perhaps the Stone is very forgiving, but I can't help but wonder if there is more to it than that. Thoughts?
I'm not afraid that Solas bringing down the Veil will kill everyone. But there are a few things I do question. If Solas takes the Veil down why would it just be the people who die? How will the destruction be so selective that only the modern elves, the humans, the dwarves, the qunari are the only things that will die? Wouldn't also everything that lives die? Plants, animals, etc. What would be the point of an entirely barren world? It would have to be rebuilt quite literally from the ground up. How long would this take? If there are ancient elves trapped in the Fade who will be released when the Veil is gone, how will they survive - unless they won't actually need food or water. At this point, I'm going to believe that Solas taking the Veil down means a lot of people will die, a lot of damage will be done as the Fade and the physical world reintegrate, there will be a lot of chaos and that the world the Inquisitor knows will certainly cease to exist. But it doesn't make much sense to me to assume that taking the Veil down means the utter destruction of everything. It would seem counterproductive and pointless even for Solas's goals. And of course I could be wrong, it's entirely possible that Solas means to simply recreate the world entirely although I'm not sure how that will restore the ancient elves. Unless he's going to time travel to the point right after he created the Veil and take it down immediately but that raises a lot of other issues.
A few other things to to think about. Solas vacillates between whether or not he'll die doing this. At the end of the base game, if you speak to Cole, Cole is saying something and it becomes apparent that what Cole is saying is what Solas is actually saying to Cole. He says: "I'm sorry Cole but with your gift I fear you might see the path that I must now walk in in solitude forever. This fate is mine alone. Indeed, I would not wish it on an enemy, much less someone that I once cared for. Though you reach out in compassion, I must now insist that you forget." But in Trespasser he'll say that the path he walks only ends in death. But also in Trespasser he'll also say that he doesn't want the Inquisitor to see what he becomes not that he doesn't want the Inquisitor to see him die.
Solas is also not entirely clear on what will happen to the Evanuris. When he tells you what would have happened if he'd gotten the orb you can say wouldn't that have just freed the Evanuris and Solas will say that he had plans. Then he'll say that the Evanuris are trapped forever. So what were his plans regarding the Evanuris and why are they now trapped forever when before taking the Veil down would have freed them?
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You're being selective - you seem to only accept definitive answers, while ignoring those which imply that he's not certain what's to come. This is not exactly honest.
Also - I'm not really sure why you're making an assumption that people are frightened: that he may do something that pushes him past moral event horizon maybe, but one does not have to plot the utter end the world to do that. Look at Corypheus after all - his plan wasn't to 'destroy the world', it was in fact 'to give the world a god and nation it deserves' and give mortals comfort that someone 'up there' is looking out for them.
In theory this is vastly preferable, just from description alone, to end of the world. But we do know what hid behind that description - hubris, madness, elitism, utter disregard to what's sacrificed and stooping to most sinister of methods to manipulate or conquer people and nations, and that's just aside of the possibility that his insane plan will bury everyone. The HOW is therefore as important - if not more important - than the WHAT of a given plan.
Also - given that Corypheus was actually sort of a red herring and during Inquisition we basically built power that is able to withstand what's to come after this threat (and perhaps make Solas start doubt his plan if we gain his respect) there's no way of telling if this is the way DA4 will take (I mean aside from the fact that Solas is already a vastly different antagonist compared to Cory).
Will there be just one antagonist? Will there be more? Solas is pretty obviously terrified of the Blight and we know that there are other threats stirring in the background. So the conflict may not be as straightforwards as redeem/kill Solas - there are other routes the story may take. Is killing him the right path to go, given the shaky fate of elves/magic/Fade if we do, OR that we may need him to battle the real threat? Will we maybe have to side with some sort of unknown force to actually kill him? And what if it turns out that it's Inquisitor that is the threat at the end of it all? I mean, DA3 hasn't yet answered the question of whether Inquisitor will save the world or destroy it (Ellawynn has also provided few other excellent possibilities for future conflict).
There are so many possibilities with current set up, I'm surprised you seem to be expecting they'd stick to the simplest one. Especially given the fact that Trespasser doesn't just paint Solas as a straightforward threat, but offers us an option to redeem him.
... Since when suggesting that the issue may be more complex than just 'destroying everything' makes everything "morally squeaky clean"?
Like... wut? Where do you even get "salvation for all" or "nobody gets hurt"? This is nothing more than a strawman, and a pretty annoying one.
I don't need to. " Even if" doesn't mean "I don't know". It means " I'll do this no matter what". Now, I suppose it isn't unreasonable if the players claim to still have some doubt, but to say that Solas is clueless about what's gonna happen when he carries out his plan? That's absurd.
Corypheus was going to achieve that after bringing about countless deaths. There is a reason why the parallel is often drawn, though Solas still struggles with the moral dilemma of whether he should see it through. This is the how, as you mentioned, which should make him a vastly more interesting antagonist.
As for DA4, yes, I have no doubt that there will be other villains as it is always the case in DA games but Solas is the big one. We had a whole game building him up to take the spotlight.
Well, of course I don't believe his plan boils down to JUST that. Bringing down the Veil should involve a lot more, starting with what's gonna happen to the Evanuris.
I don't need to. " Even if" doesn't mean "I don't know". It means " I'll do this no matter what". Now, I suppose it isn't unreasonable if the players claim to still have some doubt, but to say that Solas is clueless about what's gonna happen when he carries out his plan? That's absurd.
Corypheus was going to achieve that after bringing about countless deaths. There is a reason why the parallel is often drawn, though Solas still struggles with the moral dilemma of whether he should see it through. This is the how, as you mentioned, which should make him a vastly more interesting antagonist.
As for DA4, yes, I have no doubt that there will be other villains as it is always the case in DA games but Solas is the big one. We had a whole game building him up to take the spotlight.
Well, of course I don't believe his plan boils down to JUST that. Bringing down the Veil should involve a lot more, starting with what's gonna happen to the Evanuris.
I think part of the annoyance factor is that you keep insisting that everyone who doubts is afraid and can't handle grey morality. Questioning something doesn't mean you're frightened nor does it mean you can't handle moral issues.
We don't know how exactly Solas is going to take down the Veil. We have a general overview of what he wants to accomplish: take down the Veil, restore the ancient elves. We know that Solas believes it will kill a lot of people or everyone. But we don't have details and we know that Solas's plans don't always go the way he thinks they will. So we wonder and speculate on how exactly he plans to accomplish his goals and what will actually happen.
I don't need to. " Even if" doesn't mean "I don't know". It means " I'll do this no matter what". Now, I suppose it isn't unreasonable if the players claim to still have some doubt, but to say that Solas is clueless about what's gonna happen when he carries out his plan? That's absurd.
*sigh* What is absurd is that you keep insisting that it's either one or the other - that Solas apparently has to be 100% certain what will happen, or that you think people are suggesting that he is clueless.
Really - for someone insisting on the existence of "greyness" you seem to do a lot to ignore all the gray that lies between two extremes. I mean, so far I'm yet to see any person here claiming that Solas is absolutely clueless or blameless about what's going to happen - only that there's a level of uncertainty to his plan, or what he can predict, especially given that he admits to making mistakes and that he's looking forward to approved Inquisitor proving him wrong.
Corypheus was going to achieve that after bringing about countless deaths. There is a reason why the parallel is often drawn, though Solas still struggles with the moral dilemma of whether he should see it through. This is the how, as you mentioned, which should make him a vastly more interesting antagonist.
Yes, and the how of bringing about the end of current Thedas by Solas remains yet vastly an unknown.
As for DA4, yes, I have no doubt that there will be other villains as it is always the case in DA games but Solas is the big one. We had a whole game building him up to take the spotlight.
Well, of course I don't believe his plan boils down to JUST that. Bringing down the Veil should involve a lot more, starting with what's gonna happen to the Evanuris.
We had a lot of buildup to reveal one of the most pivotal characters in the story, true, and whatever will happen will largely center around him - but that doesn't mean that Solas will be in fact the main antagonist of given installment, especially considering that we can apparently sway him from whatever he's planning to do and redeem him - a word that carries very strong implications.
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So, you know, the logical conclusion is that the Veil disappearing won't kill everything. Dunno why some people seem so opposed to the idea. *Shrug* I guess some just want to deny Solas any hint of success in anything.
Or instead of that, perhaps some care about the prospect of death and destruction that might follow from doing things to potentially destabilize the world, cause "raw chaos", and release the Evanuris who were so dangerous they had to be trapped in the first place.
Maybe caring about the lives that exist now, the people who exist now, and what might happen to them. Even if something doesn't cause total destruction, it can still be devastating. My mind goes to the two places hit by atomic bomb in Japan. They survived, people survived, life went on, but apart from lives lost, great destruction, effects of radiation, etc. Sure, the entire country didn't fail, and many people survived, but death is not the only possible outcome of traumatic or terrifying events.
I don't need to. " Even if" doesn't mean "I don't know". It means " I'll do this no matter what". Now, I suppose it isn't unreasonable if the players claim to still have some doubt, but to say that Solas is clueless about what's gonna happen when he carries out his plan? That's absurd.
I don't think Solas is clueless. He did, after all, raise the Veil. He's the expert on it. But he didn't foresee all the consequences of raising it, and I think the same goes for dropping it.
It'd be like asking a climatologist to predict what the Earth would look like in millions of years given some drastic change. They'd probably make several educated guesses that are true, but the world is such a complicated system that expecting anybody, even an expert, to correctly predict all the consequences of change is unrealistic.
Though I agree that Solas is currently committed to his plan even in the face of what he believes are dire consequences. Which is what makes him a compelling antagonist. After all, if he looked at Plan Apocalypse and thought, "Nah, too extreme. Gonna take a nap instead," we wouldn't be having this conversation
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And there are more forces at play than just the Wolf. Remember, Loghain thought he was defending Ferelden from Orlesian influence, and Meredith thought she was protecting Kirkwall. That genuine belief didn't mean they were correct in their assumptions, and I don't think we should assume everything Solas says will come to pass either.
So I'm trusting that the plot of DA4 will be just as filled with difficult choices and morally gray results.
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