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[midnight tea]

I don't know about this. It kinda undermines personal agency, don't you think? 

 

I have to say, I really dislike the idea that relying on friends or some support from time to time apparently undermines someone's agency, just like sometimes I see people argue about it in case of some choices we make, apparently "for" other companions. It doesn't - it's simply a fact of life: we are social creatures. Sometimes we rely on others, more often than not when in tight spot (and, chances are, that they may come time that they'd rely on us for a change).

 

Both in life as well in DAI the characters are constructed in a way that they choose to take your input into consideration - they like you (if you've gained enough of their approval) and they choose to put their trust in you in order for them to go through some sort of personal problem.

 

So really, how does that undermine personal agency, I wonder? Is it really such a shame to admit that sometimes we need a bit of help, or don't see clearly what has to be done and it might be wise to perhaps not be stubborn about our own ability to push through no matter of circumstances?

 

If Solas was like this, would he even consider changing his mind about people of modern Thedas not being people? He killed Felassan over that, yet a few years of being around them and influence of decent Inquisitor (Solas directly states "you showed me that I was wrong") and he's forced to reconsider his stance. IMO it's a credit to both Solas and the world: Solas, for being open-minded and receptive to people around him, and the world being still full of people inspiring hope for the better.

 

The idea that people are settled into a given course of action, a certain mindset, or a certain fate unless an outside force (the player) act upon the character to "save" him/her. What's to say this outside force is even a good influence? Or the right influence, rather. We can push Leliana either way and both results could be argued to be the right one. Perhaps Blackwall was always going to turn himself in and answer for his crimes. Perhaps dying in the place of the man they were about to hang was his redemption. Perhaps Solas was on the right path all along, and it is the player who blindsided him, and put him in the wrong path. Perhaps someday a different part of history would paint my Inquisitor as the villain in this story, the heartless traitor who sided with the others to undermine the restoration of her people. I don't know... I'd like to think that even should people fail and fall into despair for a time, eventually, some will find the strength within to save themselves.

 

This is exactly where trust comes in - and one thing we know about Solas is that he's gone so far off the deep end that he can't even trust the love of his life. So if there ever was a person who needs to be reminded that there are actually people who haven't yet given up on him, and willing to help him, it's him.

 

And I'm not saying that we can necessarily make right decision - I surely do hope that we''d be able to fail if we make wrong decisions in DA4. But this is where realistic story conflict can kick in in earnest: are you enough to make an actual difference, not just for the world, but for your friend?

 

I'm also not sure why you keep treating my comments as if I'm speaking in absolutes. Just like before I didn't imply that this is ALL about learned helplessness, nowhere there I implied that trusting in others is ALL that is needed. Obviously, the impulse to change, push through or even make a choice to listen to a friend must come from a person - though I'd like to remind that there are circumstances in life that push people so far that indeed without some support of others they personally don't see their way out. Many times it involves other people simply reminding that they indeed have that personal strength to save themselves, but they still have to be reminded of it - as spirit!Cole says that he will be there for Solas to remind him who he is.

 

Also... l really don't see what part of Solas's history put him in this learned helplessness category. He was/is a powerful mage, a revered leader to his people. He's led numerous slaves in a rebellion against their oppressors. Yes, he has seen a lot of pain and death and loss, but I haven't seen anything that's broken him yet (well, except for loving someone he maybe shouldn't). He remains convinced of his purpose, even if love/friendship made him hesitate for a little while there. I just don't see how this learned helplessness applies to him. His mistakes were his own. Every step of the way, he has been agent to his choices. Yes, the consequences of his actions hasn't been great, but feeling sadness or regret for what he's unwittingly done in order to help his people is not the same as falling into hopelessness and giving up. You ask him what the alternative would have been had he not stopped the elven gods and he says "the evanuris would have destroyed the entire world." He believes he's done the right thing, still. And I kinda believe he has as well.

 

Really...? So suddenly being in position of power means that they can't be in a position where they see no other way out? Even when Solas himself has comments like "Faith of people oftentimes turns their leaders into martyrs" or "too few invested with authority possess the courage to alter their course"?

 

The fact that many leaders can be pushed into position of no return is ALSO something of a theme of DAI. The Herald is all but forced to save the world and oftentimes it means doing things they don't necessarily personally favor - saving institutions or faulty government systems they don't necessarily support, or playing the role of the godsent hero of a religion that isn't even theirs.

 

Also... I'm really surprised that you don't see anything that could have him messed up. Being severely betrayed and having his trust broken (he doesn't even trust the person he loves enough and can say to Inky that he learn NOT to trust his friends), having a person he seems to deeply care about killed and watching things he loves being twisted beyond recognition or destroyed by his own hands... How, realistically, this could not break anyone, even a little?

 

He destroyed the entire civilization, cut off people from realm he loves and though he saved the elves, he also doomed them, as he did other people, to living in a diminished state... as necessary as it was and right given all the circumstances, he feels tremendously guilty about that - to a point that he seeks to tear the Veil down. He also painfully admits to using people "in one hopeless battle against another", he seems to be convinced that most his actions are mistakes and sees little merit in his own accomplishments and he sees no other future for himself than the one that he wouldn't wish on an enemy (and given that he's sent his enemies to suffer eternal torment means whatever awaits him must be pretty bad).

 

Solas IS a broken man. Not to a point of going bonkers or anything of the sort, but he's been through a lot of trauma that has left him damaged and whatever we'd do in DA4 will push him in one way or another.

[Fen'Eira]

snip...

Despite the  feels for Solas that I have, I cannot dismiss the fact, however, that though he is adamant  that he and his people were not gods, he certainly feels entitled to act like one.  He feels that he, alone, has the answer to saving his people from the other "not-gods." And now again, rather than accepting the consequences of his actions, he feels it is his choice and in basically his right to "fix" what he did by playing god and destroying the lives of this world in order to restore the last one.

 

He's playing god with all these lives on Thedas.  A "non'god" would try to make things better while not causing genocide on the world.

 

I love you Solas, but I cannot dismiss what he's done and what he's going to do.

 

Edit to add:  In my personal canon, Her parting shot to him is that she is "a regrettable and yet acceptable casualty in his plans." When he turns to argue that or defend himself in some way, she just walks away.

[dawnstone]

Ahh, that second one. I really wished he'd given us that necklace as a keepsake. My Lavellan has nothing to clutch to her bosom as she gaze mournfully into the sunset. Inconsiderate wolf.

 

Lady Oscar agrees, with sparkly bishoujou tears.

[midnight tea]

Despite the  feels for Solas that I have, I cannot dismiss the fact, however, that though he is adamant  that he and his people were not gods, he certainly feels entitled to act like one.  He feels that he, alone, has the answer to saving his people from the other "not-gods." And now again, rather than accepting the consequences of his actions, he feels it is his choice and in basically his right to "fix" what he did by playing god and destroying the lives of this world in order to restore the last one.

 

He's playing god with all these lives on Thedas.  A "non'god" would try to make things better while not causing genocide on the world.

 

I love you Solas, but I cannot dismiss what he's done and what he's going to do.

 

Um, does that negate anything I stated? In fact, isn't it making my point about accepting others' help more poignant?

 

Plus, I know nothing about Solas considering it being "his right" to fix his mistake, but I can certainly see how he can see himself as the one to do something about the Veil (either remove, change strenghten or whatever could be done with it). He created it after all.

 

Also - we still don't have all the answers to know the full picture. We're yet to know if Solas is actually playing god or if indeed terrible options are all that is left. He does say that he will save the elvhen people, not just restore them - so what exactly he's saving them from? Is saving Thedas means the eventual annihilation of the elves? Are there more lives at stake if Thedas remains as it is? It may yet turn out that we ourselves might have to make choices between genocide of one world for another. I have to agree with Solas when he says that sadly  sometimes terrible choices are all that remains - even if I do hope that in that regard he's wrong.

[Fen'Eira]

My reply wasn't argumentative against your post.  I just quoted it to continue the conversation with my thoughts with a reference to the conversation rather than having two plus discussions jumping in since this thread generally moves so fast.

 

I don't care which opinion is right..  None of are going to know who is or isn't until DA4.  I am just stating my opinion.  Yours may vary.  I did not mean for you to feel like you had to argue your case.

[midnight tea]

My reply wasn't argumentative against your post.  I just quoted it to continue the conversation with my thoughts with a reference to the conversation rather than having two plus discussions jumping in since this thread generally moves so fast.

 

I don't care which opinion is right..  None of are going to know who is or isn't until DA4.  I am just stating my opinion.  Yours may vary.  I did not mean for you to feel like you had to argue your case.

 

Sorry, if I made you feel like I'm arguing^^; It's mostly swapping ideas at this point, at least when it comes to what we uncover during DA4 and the fate they have for Solas.

[roselavellan]

 

Also... I'm really surprised that you don't see anything that could have him messed up. Being severely betrayed and having his trust broken (he doesn't even trust the person he loves enough and can say to Inky that he learn NOT to trust his friends), having a person he seems to deeply care about killed and watching things he loves being twisted beyond recognition or destroyed by his own hands... How, realistically, this could not break anyone, even a little?

 

He destroyed the entire civilization, cut off people from realm he loves and though he saved the elves, he also doomed them, as he did other people, to living in a diminished state... as necessary as it was and right given all the circumstances, he feels tremendously guilty about that - to a point that he seeks to tear the Veil down. He also painfully admits to using people "in one hopeless battle against another", he seems to be convinced that most his actions are mistakes and sees little merit in his own accomplishments and he sees no other future for himself than the one that he wouldn't wish on an enemy (and given that he's sent his enemies to suffer eternal torment means whatever awaits him must be pretty bad).

 

Solas IS a broken man. Not to a point of going bonkers or anything of the sort, but he's been through a lot of trauma that has left him damaged and whatever we'd do in DA4 will push him in one way or another.

 

 

I see Solas as traumatized perhaps, but not broken. On my side, I believe that, whatever has been compromised (he definitely has trust issues), his will, his wisdom and intelligence are still intact - after all they were quite evident throughout the game. And I just don't see someone with his will and intelligence succumbing to resignation.

 

I think that when he says "Sometimes terrible choices are all that remain", he says so not because of learned helplessness but because that is genuinely the only solution that is apparent. But he is not omniscient, of course, and perhaps other circumstances will emerge in DA4 that will present another solution.

[DarkSun09]

I have to say, I really dislike the idea that relying on friends or some support from time to time apparently undermines someone's agency, just like sometimes I see people argue about it in case of some choices we make, apparently "for" other companions. It doesn't - it's simply a fact of life: we are social creatures. Sometimes we rely on others, more often than not when in tight spot (and, chances are, that they may come time that they'd rely on us for a change).

Both in life as well in DAI the characters are constructed in a way that they choose to take your input into consideration - they like you (if you've gained enough of their approval) and they choose to put their trust in you in order for them to go through some sort of personal problem.

So really, how does that undermine personal agency, I wonder? Is it really such a shame to admit that sometimes we need a bit of help, or don't see clearly what has to be done and it might be wise to perhaps not be stubborn about our own ability to push through no matter of circumstances?

If Solas was like this, would he even consider changing his mind about people of modern Thedas not being people? He killed Felassan over that, yet a few years of being around them and influence of decent Inquisitor (Solas directly states "you showed me that I was wrong") and he's forced to reconsider his stance. IMO it's a credit or both Solas and the world: Solas, for being open-minded and receptive to people around him, and the world being still full of people inspiring hope for the better.



This is exactly where trust comes in - and one thing we know about Solas is that he's gone so far off the deep end that he can't even trust the love of his life. So if there ever was a person who needs to be reminded that there are actually people who haven't yet given up on him, and willing to help him, it's him.

And I'm not saying that we can necessarily make right decision - I surely do hope that we''d be able to fail if we make wrong decisions in DA4. But this is where realistic story conflict can kick in in earnest: are you enough to make an actual difference, not just for the world, but for your friend?

I'm also not sure why you keep treating my comments as if I'm speaking in absolutes. Just like before I didn't imply that this is ALL about learned helplessness, nowhere there I implied that trusting in others is ALL that is needed. Obviously, the impulse to change, push through or even make a choice to listen to a friend must come from a person - though I'd like to remind that there are circumstances in life that push people so far that indeed without some support of others they personally don't see their way out. Many times it involves other people simply reminding that they indeed have that personal strength to save themselves, but they still have to be reminded of it - as spirit!Cole says that he will be there for Solas to remind him who he is.



Really...? So suddenly being in position of power means that they can't be in a position where they see no other way out? Even when Solas himself has comments like "Faith of people oftentimes turns their leaders into martyrs" or "too few invested with authority possess the courage to alter their course"?

The fact that many leaders can be pushed into position of no return is ALSO something of a theme of DAI. The Herald is all but forced to save the world and oftentimes it means doing things they don't necessarily personally favor - saving institutions or faulty government systems they don't necessarily support, or playing the role of the godsent hero of a religion that isn't even theirs.

Also... I'm really surprised that you don't see anything that could have him messed up. Being severely betrayed and having his trust broken (he doesn't even trust the person he loves enough and can say to Inky that he learn NOT to trust his friends), having a person he seems to deeply care about killed and watching things he loves being twisted beyond recognition or destroyed by his own hands... How, realistically, this could not break anyone, even a little?

He destroyed the entire civilization, cut off people from realm he loves and though he saved the elves, he also doomed them, as he did other people, to living in a diminished state... as necessary as it was and right given all the circumstances, he feels tremendously guilty about that - to a point that he seeks to tear the Veil down. He also painfully admits to using people "in one hopeless battle against another", he seems to be convinced that most his actions are mistakes and sees little merit in his own accomplishments and he sees no other future for himself than the one that he wouldn't wish on an enemy (and given that he's sent his enemies to suffer eternal torment means whatever awaits him must be pretty bad).

Solas IS a broken man. Not to a point of going bonkers or anything of the sort, but he's been through a lot of trauma that has left him damaged and whatever we'd do in DA4 will push him in one way or another.

I'm sorry, friend, this whole idea of learned helplessness is a bit redundant to me because you can apply it to everyone and every situation, so I was trying to understand what made the concept so fascinating to you that you brought it up. Not saying you're wrong, just... I don't get why this is a key point for you. I know you don't mean it in terms of absolutes. I pose it as such so we can explore various counterarguments. Like...

You keep telling me Solas is a broken man because his past made him this victim of learned helplessness, and as a result, he's fallen into hoplessness and wants to destroy the world. Or he sees no other way other than its destruction. I'm not seeing that, though. I'm seeing someone who is actively working towards restoring a "better" world because that IS how he's saving it. His goal isn't to destroy your world out of some sense of hopelessness or despair. He's just trying to save HIS. And the destruction of your world is an unfortunate side effect. For all that he is grim and fatalistic, he still carries the hope that a better future IS possible. And, ironically, it was the Inquisitor's influence that helped him see that. This is to your point about being positively influenced by friends and loved ones. WE pushed him further along this path for redemption.

What he's given up on, to me, is his relationship with people, specifically the Inquisitor (be it friendship or romance). He sees no way they can be together in light of what he must do. That part... the personal stuff... I can see him being all "learned helplessness" about. He doesn't have many friends. He doesn't know how to keep anyone close because he keeps losing ppl he cares about. So he's given up on THAT. But not on fixing the world. And showing him people still care about him and won't give up on him means nothing because he can't/won't put personal desires before his people. He knows Lavellan loves him. He knows it. What he needs is much more practical... a way to save his world that will not endanger ours.
~
I agree with your first point that receiving help and support from friends/loved one doesn't have to undermine one's agency.

[DarkSun09]

Despite the feels for Solas that I have, I cannot dismiss the fact, however, that though he is adamant that he and his people were not gods, he certainly feels entitled to act like one. He feels that he, alone, has the answer to saving his people from the other "not-gods." And now again, rather than accepting the consequences of his actions, he feels it is his choice and in basically his right to "fix" what he did by playing god and destroying the lives of this world in order to restore the last one.

He's playing god with all these lives on Thedas. A "non'god" would try to make things better while not causing genocide on the world.

I love you Solas, but I cannot dismiss what he's done and what he's going to do.

Edit to add: In my personal canon, Her parting shot to him is that she is "a regrettable and yet acceptable casualty in his plans." When he turns to argue that or defend himself in some way, she just walks away.

Yeah, I know. But it's tough though 'cause (per Iron bull) being a leader sometimes mean you have to do what is necessary, not what is moral or ethical. For instance, I had Celene killed at the Winter Palace when I could've saved her and reunited her with Briala. Made that choice because I thought the future with Briala in power was better. I had the power to act, and I chose the less moral path with the hopes that it will lead to a better future.

In Solas's case... yeah, what he thinks is the "necessary evil" is pretty horrific, but I can see why he's doing it. If you have the power (magical or otherwise) to make the world a better place, would you not do it because it's wrong to play god? Maybe he sees having that much power means that he has the responsibility to use it. To make the world better no matter the cost. Maybe no one else could make that tough decision but him. He willingly makes himself a monster in everyone's eyes so that this "better" world of his can be resurrected.

[Vlk3]

Hey,

As I'm playing through Inquisition, I keep wandering about one thing. Maybe someone has got a good answer?
Why some of the ancient elven ruins look as though some rocks are growing on them? I know that some time has passed and a lot of damage is natural, but in many cases, there's no good reason for the way they look. For example, in Emprise du Lion, the buidings that look like Coloseum look as though someone teleported a huge rock and put it inside of them.... Same goes for the ancient bathhouse (is that how it is called?) in Exalted Plains. Do you think it's just  a strange design choice or there's more to it? Or maybe rock growing on top of ruins are natural and I just don't know that...

 

Also there's something really sad in Emerald Graves. There's a strange elven tower  in the forest  that cannot be accessed and some companions comment on it. Cole says that there was a woman in that tower who called for help but no one could hear her.

When I first heared that I imagined many different scenarios, but it seems likely that this tower could be accessed only by an Eluvian...and when the network was shut down, she just got stuck up there and had no way to escape. That's my version of it at least.
 

 

As for the ongoing discussion, I'd like to see that Solas doesn't need to resign from his plans in order to stay on the 'good' side. I don't believe in general that resigning from his greatest dream (I think he really would like to see the world without Veil) would do him any good. It would destroy the character for me. All I hope for is that with the help of Inquisitor or because some change of circumstances he can find a way to make it without destroying the world. Or with minimal casualties.

[Ellawynn]

 

I do wonder why Solas is killing Flemythal - couldn't he just team up with her? Her power, his knowledge? I do think Mythal is still alive and possibly transferring to Morrigan - I guess in all the time being Flemythal she has recovered some power and he takes just this. Quite interesting that this is so easy to do for him, I mean absorbing her power. 

 

And concerning his lost orb: maybe there are other orbs, from Mythal, from the other evanuris that can be found and used? 

 During the stinger at the end of the game, Solas tells Mythal that it was his mistake and he should pay for it... but the people need him. Given that Mythal doesn't argue, I'm guessing he means that quite literally. That whatever he intends to do, he not only needs power to do it, but it has to be him. Either no one else is capable or some arbitrary magical mumbo jumbo'll stop them but not Solas. 

 

Either way, I don't think simply allying with someone would be an option.

[DarkSun09]

 
As for the ongoing discussion, I'd like to see that Solas doesn't need to resign from his plans in order to stay on the 'good' side. I don't believe in general that resigning from his greatest dream (I think he really would like to see the world without Veil) would do him any good. It would destroy the character for me. All I hope for is that with the help of Inquisitor or because some change of circumstances he can find a way to make it without destroying the world. Or with minimal casualties.

That's what I think, too. I don't think the mission in the next game will be to change his mind. Like... how is that even going to work? If having to kill the woman he loves isn't enough to turn him from his path, what else can you do to make him stop? No, I think we help him by finding a way to save his people without him having to tear down the veil and burning everyone in the aftermath. Essentially, I think we'll be working towards the same goal as Solas, but with an emphasis on minimizing casualties.

And because, goddammit, I want to see my people restored, too. Arlathan sounds amazing. I just don't want it at the cost of so many lives.

[Elessara]

Hey,

As I'm playing through Inquisition, I keep wandering about one thing. Maybe someone has got a good answer?
Why some of the ancient elven ruins look as though some rocks are growing on them? I know that some time has passed and a lot of damage is natural, but in many cases, there's no good reason for the way they look. For example, in Emprise du Lion, the buidings that look like Coloseum look as though someone teleported a huge rock and put it inside of them.... Same goes for the ancient bathhouse (is that how it is called?) in Exalted Plains. Do you think it's just  a strange design choice or there's more to it? Or maybe rock growing on top of ruins are natural and I just don't know that...

 

Also there's something really sad in Emerald Graves. There's a strange elven tower  in the forest  that cannot be accessed and some companions comment on it. Cole says that there was a woman in that tower who called for help but no one could hear her.

When I first heared that I imagined many different scenarios, but it seems likely that this tower could be accessed only by an Eluvian...and when the network was shut down, she just got stuck up there and had no way to escape. That's my version of it at least.
 

 

As for the ongoing discussion, I'd like to see that Solas doesn't need to resign from his plans in order to stay on the 'good' side. I don't believe in general that resigning from his greatest dream (I think he really would like to see the world without Veil) would do him any good. It would destroy the character for me. All I hope for is that with the help of Inquisitor or because some change of circumstances he can find a way to make it without destroying the world. Or with minimal casualties.

 

The hot springs in Emprise du Lion ... those statues and Coliseum type buildings were built around the hot springs and were done by the Orlesians.  There's a codex entry you can find where a Dalish elf talks about the gaudy statues and buildings the Orlesians put there.

 

That tower in the Emerald Graves .. yeah that's weird.  So many companions comment but there's nothing to be done there.  I wonder if that was pat of cut content because I've always wondered why everyone is so interested in that tower heh.  But we don't know how old that tower is.  Is it from the "ancient" time of the Dales (which was 700 years before current Thedas) or from the Ancient elves (the elves from Solas's time).  The ruins being excavated by the elves near there were mostly from the time of the Dales though they could have been built upon or reused older structures.  I think this is one of the more confusing things about elven ruins especially since the aesthetic doesn't seem to change much from Ancient elves to the Dales elves.

 

As for Solas ... I'm not sure if I really want to change his mind.  I don't mean destroying current Thedas but saving his people.  Ideally I would like to be able to find some way to save his people and preserve current Thedas (for the most part) by removing the Veil in a less destructive manner than what Solas is anticipating.  But this is Dragon Age so I highly doubt I'll be able to have my cake and eat it too.

[DarkSun09]

Lady Oscar agrees, with sparkly bishoujou tears.

Lol. Hey, finally someone who shares my sense of humor. I had an almost identical image in mind. Cue inappropriate dramatic Japanese pop song playing in the background.

[Flemmy]

Made a video about Solas and his dream. If you're interested. 

 

 

Wow... Incredible

[midnight tea]

I'm sorry, friend, this whole idea of learned helplessness is a bit redundant to me because you can apply it to everyone and every situation, so I was trying to understand what made the concept so fascinating to you that you brought it up. Not saying you're wrong, just... I don't get why this is a key point for you. I know you don't mean it in terms of absolutes. I pose it as such so we can explore various counterarguments. Like...

 

It can be applied to variety of situations =/= it can be applied to everyone and every situation. Still, I don't understand the claim about redundancy - the fact that, say, people need friends can be applied to everyone in every situation, but that hardly makes it redundant, hmm? Therefore the fact that the concept of giving up against repeated trauma or impossible odds is pervasive, especially in the world like Thedas (torn by wars, conflicts, demons and Blight) hardly makes it redundant.

 

And it's not about my fascination with the concept itself, but the responses to it.

 

You keep telling me Solas is a broken man because his past made him this victim of learned helplessness, and as a result, he's fallen into hoplessness and wants to destroy the world. Or he sees no other way other than its destruction. I'm not seeing that, though. I'm seeing someone who is actively working towards restoring a "better" world because that IS how he's saving it. His goal isn't to destroy your world out of some sense of hopelessness or despair. He's just trying to save HIS. And the destruction of your world is an unfortunate side effect. For all that he is grim and fatalistic, he still carries the hope that a better future IS possible. And, ironically, it was the Inquisitor's influence that helped him see that. This is to your point about being positively influenced by friends and loved ones. WE pushed him further along this path for redemption.

 

See, the reason why I'm confused with some of your responses and keep responding further is because you keep missing my point and making my comments about something they're not really about. 

 

a.) where did I ever suggest that Solas wants to destroy the world for the sake of destruction? Hmm... is it because you see a surface contradiction between "actively working towards something" and connotations phrases like "giving up" or "hopelessness" bring first to our mind that you find the concept incongruent with what he's doing? Resigning oneself to one's fate isn't always literal. One can actively work towards a certain goal, but still do so either because of the momentum, guilt or seeing no other way out. And Solas wants to tear down the way and destroy Thedas as it's now precisely because so far he sees no other way out, or doesn't think that any other option would work. He either gave up searching because he's too worn and tired, or he's too burned by past failures to step away from din'anshiral.

 

 

b.) I never said that Solas is entirely devoid of hope - if he was, there would be no discussion. But as for now he still marches towards what will likely be both the doom of modern Thedas and himself. People he came to respect showed him that the cage is open, but haven't yet managed to encourage him to step outside.

 

 

 

What he's given up on, to me, is his relationship with people, specifically the Inquisitor (be it friendship or romance). He sees no way they can be together in light of what he must do. That part... the personal stuff... I can see him being all "learned helplessness" about. He doesn't have many friends. He doesn't know how to keep anyone close because he keeps losing ppl he cares about. So he's given up on THAT. But not on fixing the world. And showing him people still care about him and won't give up on him means nothing because he can't/won't put personal desires before his people. He knows Lavellan loves him. He knows it. What he needs is much more practical... a way to save his world that will not endanger ours.

~

I agree with your first point that receiving help and support from friends/loved one doesn't have to undermine one's agency.

 

We don't really know what are his ideas for saving the world past tearing the Veil and reforming the world of the elves, but we do know that he seems to think that whatever he'd do will end with his literal or metaphorical death. And there may not really be much world-saving if he thinks that he has to save the world from himself and his past mistakes. It isn't just cutting relationships that is apparent here, but also what that he appears to be a man utterly resigned on himself. He tried to help and fix things, only to make things worse or not better - or at least he seems to think so. So now the only thing he seems to think is left for him is try and fix some of his largest mistakes on his way out, in the only way he thinks is available to him. I don't think he believes he has anything to offer the world other than his countless mistakes and continuous failures. That's as much giving up as we can probably get.

[Janic99]

small vid :3

Sadly  I had to delete the video since youtube said that the video cannot be shown in most countries cause of the copyright of the song so I need to use a cover instead ^^ 

[ladyiolanthe]

I think Solas' talk of travelling the Din'anshiral almost certainly indicates he does not expect to live. There may even be a reason that he cannot go on living that is unrelated to his feelings of guilt. Maybe Mythal sabotaged him at the end of Inquisition - she is described even by Solas as a protector of the elves. She has been helping and protecting the modern elves as Asha'belannar. Maybe she knew Solas would try to return the world to the ancient elven way of life, but she herself wishes to preserve the modern elves. She and Solas may be playing a millennias-old game of chess.  Perhaps whatever she allowed of herself to be passed along to Solas when he ended her was something she knew would hamper his efforts, kill him even.  Maybe that's why she apologizes to him.

 

One of Cole's banters about the Inquisitor's hand in Trespasser suggests that Solas is on his way out.

 

"Your hand hurts. A heartbeat. Not yours. Hammering the beat of a song in its final verse. I'm sorry."

 

I hope Cole's wrong because I would really like to be able to redeem Solas and see him live, but I'm not optimistic that this will be an option as we bring Solas' story arc to a close in the next game.

[Janic99]

Here a small edition of Elastic hear cover by Julia Westlin. Please tell me if you want a full version ^^ 

 

[roselavellan]

More than just interesting, I think he's a very beautiful character. From the moment he appears in that book till the very end, he's a bottomless well of snark and feels.

I really recommend The Masked Empire. It has many other great characters as well.

 

All this talking about TME is making me really impatient for the next DA book....

[TheyCallMeBunny]

I think Solas' talk of travelling the Din'anshiral almost certainly indicates he does not expect to live. There may even be a reason that he cannot go on living that is unrelated to his feelings of guilt. Maybe Mythal sabotaged him at the end of Inquisition - she is described even by Solas as a protector of the elves. She has been helping and protecting the modern elves as Asha'belannar. Maybe she knew Solas would try to return the world to the ancient elven way of life, but she herself wishes to preserve the modern elves. She and Solas may be playing a millennias-old game of chess.  Perhaps whatever she allowed of herself to be passed along to Solas when he ended her was something she knew would hamper his efforts, kill him even.  Maybe that's why she apologizes to him.

 

One of Cole's banters about the Inquisitor's hand in Trespasser suggests that Solas is on his way out.

 

"Your hand hurts. A heartbeat. Not yours. Hammering the beat of a song in its final verse. I'm sorry."

 

I hope Cole's wrong because I would really like to be able to redeem Solas and see him live, but I'm not optimistic that this will be an option as we bring Solas' story arc to a close in the next game.

 

I have never heard this banter... that sounds rather ominous. 

[DarkSun09]

It can be applied to variety of situations =/= it can be applied to everyone and every situation. Still, I don't understand the claim about redundancy - the fact that, say, people need friends can be applied to everyone in every situation, but that hardly makes it redundant, hmm? Therefore the fact that the concept of giving up against repeated trauma or impossible odds is pervasive, especially in the world like Thedas (torn by wars, conflicts, demons and Blight) hardly makes it redundant.
 
And it's not about my fascination with the concept itself, but the responses to it.

 
Pointing out something so pervasive is exactly what makes it redundant, though. People give up after experiencing repeated trauma. Yeah, so? That's not unique to the dread wolf, so it hardly sheds any new light on his situation or motivation. That's why I was curious why you brought it up and talked about it so deeply.     
 

See, the reason why I'm confused with some of your responses and keep responding further is because you keep missing my point and making my comments about something they're not really about. 
 
a.) where did I ever suggest that Solas wants to destroy the world for the sake of destruction? Hmm... is it because you see a surface contradiction between "actively working towards something" and connotations phrases like "giving up" or "hopelessness" bring first to our mind that you find the concept incongruent with what he's doing? Resigning oneself to one's fate isn't always literal. One can actively work towards a certain goal, but still do so either because of the momentum, guilt or seeing no other way out. And Solas wants to tear down the way and destroy Thedas as it's now precisely because so far he sees no other way out, or doesn't think that any other option would work. He either gave up searching because he's too worn and tired, or he's too burned by past failures to step away from din'anshiral.

 
I'm not getting your point because the concept you brought up and the example you use to illustrate it doesn't make sense. There is a contradiction between "giving up" and "hopelessness" vs "actively working towards something!" The mentality associated with each is inherently different. Solas wants to restore his world/make it a better place. That has always been his goal, and it has not changed. Solas does not exhibit this "learn helplessness" that you're talking about. If he did, he would give up on trying to restore his people, because that has been his goal all along. If his goal was always to try and save Thedas, but he repeatedly fails, and so gives up trying, and instead resort to destroying the world to start anew... then you could say he is exhibiting this learned helplessness. But his course has not changed. His goals have not changed. He has not lost hope. He tells you, "some hope remains for restoration." He has not strayed from his path, despite falling in love with/befriending the Inquisitor. There is no learned helplessness here. 

  

b.) I never said that Solas is entirely devoid of hope - if he was, there would be no discussion. But as for now he still marches towards what will likely be both the doom of modern Thedas and himself. People he came to respect showed him that the cage is open, but haven't yet managed to encourage him to step outside.

 
Well, you said he felt hopeless... that implies being devoid of hope. Lol.
 

We don't really know what are his ideas for saving the world past tearing the Veil and reforming the world of the elves, but we do know that he seems to think that whatever he'd do will end with his literal or metaphorical death. And there may not really be much world-saving if he thinks that he has to save the world from himself and his past mistakes. It isn't just cutting relationships that is apparent here, but also what that he appears to be a man utterly resigned on himself. The only thing he seems to think is left to him is fixing some of his mistakes on his way out, in the only way he thinks is available to him. That's as much giving up as we can probably get.

Oh, ok. That's why we keep not seeing eye-to-eye! Lol. You see Solas as passively accepting his fate, while I see him as actively choosing it. You think he is resigning himself to death and destruction because he is without hope, while I think he is making the steadfast choice to pay the price of death and destruction in the hopes that it will bring about a better world. That's how we differ.

[ladyiolanthe]

I have never heard this banter... that sounds rather ominous. 

 

Yeah, I am preparing myself to find out that the happiest ending my Lavellan will be able to have is to hold Solas as he dies, so he doesn't have to die all alone. 

 

I'm also hoping that I'm wrong.

[DarkSun09]

I think Solas' talk of travelling the Din'anshiral almost certainly indicates he does not expect to live. There may even be a reason that he cannot go on living that is unrelated to his feelings of guilt. Maybe Mythal sabotaged him at the end of Inquisition - she is described even by Solas as a protector of the elves. She has been helping and protecting the modern elves as Asha'belannar. Maybe she knew Solas would try to return the world to the ancient elven way of life, but she herself wishes to preserve the modern elves. She and Solas may be playing a millennias-old game of chess.  Perhaps whatever she allowed of herself to be passed along to Solas when he ended her was something she knew would hamper his efforts, kill him even.  Maybe that's why she apologizes to him.

One of Cole's banters about the Inquisitor's hand in Trespasser suggests that Solas is on his way out.
 
"Your hand hurts. A heartbeat. Not yours. Hammering the beat of a song in its final verse. I'm sorry."
 
I hope Cole's wrong because I would really like to be able to redeem Solas and see him live, but I'm not optimistic that this will be an option as we bring Solas' story arc to a close in the next game.

I thought he was just talking about me dying! You're right, though. Reading it carefully, it sounds more like he's talking about Solas. That quote has just gone from interesting to panic-inducing for me. *cries* I don't want it to be about Solas! Now I'm scared.

[Cee]

I have never heard this banter... that sounds rather ominous. 

 

It most likely refers to the Anchor. There's really nothing to suggest it refers to Solas there.