153434 réponses à ce sujet

[Ellawynn]

Do they? I can't really think of any that made me pause for thought, I guess the Hawke choice was tough for some, but I was looking for a reason to kill him in punishment for his shitty game the moment I seen him.

 

 

Taking one line from all that text was really nitpicky of me. 

 

(Nah, quote out one line as you please. I'm the last girl to get on someone for being nitpicky.)

 

A lot of the difficult-until-the-third-option-materialized choices were back in Origins. Nature of the Beast comes to mind, and so does the Redcliffe quest - both pretty murky situations with imperfect solutions... until a third option appears with few-to-no drawbacks, often with little effort (Or atleast, with effort that you would've had to give anyway, such as going to the Circle to complete the Redcliffe arch. It would've satisfied me as an ideal but laborious solution... if you didn't have to do the Circle quest anyway, and would've completed it already if you followed BioWare's recommended quest order.)

 

I remember really liking the Landsmeet/Dark Ritual because of it though, especially if you romance Alistair. There's no clean way out of that - you gotta give up something, and trying to take the "perfect" option by recruiting Loghain and sacrificing him ends up costing you the thing you likely wanted to preserve the most.

 

Although, the Fade choice is another good example of you getting nothing but bad decisions (Well, unless you have Stroud, I guess.) 

 

Good example of more consequence-oriented approach.

 

I understand that everyone's choice is valid and should be respected, but then you hear about the various methods of torture some people are fantasizing about for Solas, and frankly, I think choosing to go that way should have consequences.

 

Anyway, honestly, the way I interpreted stopping Solas "at all costs" was just that one is willing to kill him to achieve that goal.

 

Choosing to torture Solas? Oh, yeah. I mean, jeez, that's kinda screwed up. But it's also malice for malice's sake. There are people who choose to kill Solas - most of them, probably - who don't share in that particular fantasy. 

 

...I guess my position is less "You shouldn't have any negative consequences to your actions" and more "EVERYONE should have negative consequences to their actions, and choose their actions depending on what negatives they believe outweigh others."

[Cee]

I had a dream about Solas :'(.

 

He refused to hug me at the end of the game, to make me have more feels. Then he turned up and was into it, and I wanted to find a private room for us so I could kiss him (I'm thirsty in my dreams!) but of course every single room was taken and I couldn't find anywhere. Ughhhh.

 

 

This is like the worst cut feature from a game.

 

No "go kiss Solas" option.

 

Solas, always causing feels, even in the Fade, slipping just out of Fern-Lavellan's reach in dreams.

[Master Warder Z_]

Choosing to torture Solas? Oh, yeah. I mean, jeez, that's kinda screwed up. But it's also malice for malice's sake. There are people who choose to kill Solas - most of them, probably - who don't share in that particular fantasy. 

 

Torture no? He would just mark as some barbarity of the modern age, It wouldn't even accomplish the point even if done out of spite, just lop his damn head off and be done with it.

 

He needs to die, kill him.

[Elessara]

I suppose that's true. 

 

 

But that's the issue, isn't it? Many players were indignant. You can condescend to them for missing red flags, but the point still stands that they saw it as a betrayal of their investment in the game, and an invalidation of the choices they make. Now, it was just a side-quest, and I don't think that having such black-and-white outcomes for a side-quest is such a bad thing - but invalidating a choice as "not-right" when it's the keystone of one game's epilogue and the foundation of another is something else entirely. It'd be making a mockery of their investment - which in this case, isn't the twenty minutes they spent doing Bull's quest, but the entirety of Trespasser and the entirety of whatever follows. 

 

I disagree - I feel like both sides are pretty evenly weighted right now. Looking at it logically, people who go for the throat are up against a literal god with thousands of years of experience, a network of spies, and a vast wealth of magical artifacts along with the knowledge of how they work. Frankly, they're far more likely to get killed than a character who'd rather reconcile and maybe find a better route. And even if they succeed, they lose out on everything Solas can offer. His knowledge, power, experience - you'd be throwing it all away. And of course, none of this considers the possibility that Solas might have some justification - if he's doing this to prevent something worse, well, people who went the kill route still got to deal with it, and they just murdered the one guy who could've given them a few ideas on the matter. 

 

Nothing about the choice or the reaction to/ discussion on it seem to be framed in morality. There's no "My choice is the right choice and you are morally bankrupt if you didn't take it." Mostly, it's just a lot of arguing on whether or not something's possible, and to me, it's more a question of risk vs. reward than right vs. wrong. 

 

Besides, I'm hesitant to bring this up because it's mostly speculation on my part, but I suspect if you looked at the ratio of the Trespasser choice, you'd find that the majority want to save Solas. Because it's the nice thing to do. Because we inherently see redemption, hope, and idealism as better. While some players doubtlessly gave up on Solas and fell to cynicism, I don't think it was the majority, or that the consensus is that they were morally right for doing so. If anything, I've seen slight condemnation of them for not even giving Solas a chance to redeem himself.

 

On being questioned about our intentions- I have no doubt that that's an issue those who choose to save him'll have to deal with. But again, I think those who try to kill will have to deal with the issue of giving up so easily, and being questioned on why they aren't even bothering. So that's precisely what I want - for it to balance out.

 

 

 

I suppose the disconnect here I just... don't see the redemption path as harder at the moment. I think both have their advantages and drawbacks, you can make a good case for either, so to me, piling negative consequences on the kill route doesn't seem like it's balancing things out, but just making them unequal. 

 

Tbh whether people who chose to sacrifice the Chargers were indignant or not should be irrelevant.  Actions have consequences.  That's what many players have been demanding but then they get upset when actions have consequences?  You (not you in particular Ellawynn but the colloquial you) can't have it both ways.  Either player actions have consequences (some of which they may not like) or they don't.  It's not invalidating player choices or betraying their investment in the game when something happens that they don't like as a result of their own choices.  If that were the case then no player action would ever have negative consequences or in extreme cases the game would flat out ask you how you wanted things to go and it wouldn't matter what you chose to get there because you'd always get the end you wanted.  The Keep actually kind of does that, let's you carry whatever choices you want to the next game regardless of what you actually played through.  Bull betrayed you in Trespasser?  Doesn't matter, just go into the Keep and save the Chargers instead.

 

To use drinking from the Well of Sorrows as an example:  I'm fully expecting drinking from the Well to bite my Inquisitor in the butt going forward.  But I'll take what happens and deal with it.  If it means Solas dies?  That would suck big time.  But I'll finish the game and then play through with my character not drinking from the Well.  I have made both choices in DAI.  What would be disappointing and somewhat upsetting is if drinking from the Well had little to no impact at all on my Inquisitor.  I mean, if fighting/not fighting the spirits in Trespasser is the only consequence of the Well decision, that would be seriously disappointing.

 

TL;DR - Actions should have consequences.  They may even be negative.  Players may not like what happens.  That doesn't mean developers/writers should stop making players make decisions that might negatively impact them in the future of the story.

[midnight tea]

But that's the issue, isn't it? Many players were indignant. You can condescend to them for missing red flags, but the point still stands that they saw it as a betrayal of their investment in the game, and an invalidation of the choices they make. Now, it was just a side-quest, and I don't think that having such black-and-white outcomes for a side-quest is such a bad thing - but invalidating a choice as "not-right" when it's the keystone of one game's epilogue and the foundation of another is something else entirely. It'd be making a mockery of their investment - which in this case, isn't the twenty minutes they spent doing Bull's quest, but the entirety of Trespasser and the entirety of whatever follows. 

 

Yes - many players were indignant... and Bioware was completely unapologetic about it. I even remember Patrick Weekes' pretty strong-worded comments to people who went complain about through his Twitter.

 

However, as much as people may be invested in going with the game to the very end, I don't see how people who make wrong or questionable choices should be rewarded as much as people who at least try to be better, or are observant enough to make some more beneficial choices.

 

After all, I don't hear many people screeching at CDPR after giving them endings that are indeed a mockery of their investment in TW3 game.

 

Spoiler

Depending on choices made your lovers can dump you, your surrogate daughter you searched far and wide though most of the game is dead, the land is torn by conflict and hatred under the rule of a mad king, etc...

 

...oh I did see some people who were pretty offended that made the wrong choices for completely convoluted reasons, but no amassed outpouring of outrage.

 

In fact I'm pretty sure this is exactly what people liked in Witcher 3 - that you can have an end world-state where negative consequences bite a character in the a**, hard.

[FernRain]

This is like the worst cut feature from a game.

 

No "go kiss Solas" option.

 

Solas, always causing feels, even in the Fade, slipping just out of Fern-Lavellan's reach in dreams.

 

It was the despair demon. In the end I was in a truck with him trying to get away and ended up almost crashing. I just wanted to kiss Solas . I think I got a hug eventually but my dream-self had this big plan to kiss him sensually.. Don't tell my husband..

 

.

[Elessara]

(Nah, quote out one line as you please. I'm the last girl to get on someone for being nitpicky.)

 

A lot of the difficult-until-the-third-option-materialized choices were back in Origins. Nature of the Beast comes to mind, and so does the Redcliffe quest - both pretty murky situations with imperfect solutions... until a third option appears with few-to-no drawbacks, often with little effort (Or atleast, with effort that you would've had to give anyway, such as going to the Circle to complete the Redcliffe arch. It would've satisfied me as an ideal but laborious solution... if you didn't have to do the Circle quest anyway, and would've completed it already if you followed BioWare's recommended quest order.)

 

I remember really liking the Landsmeet/Dark Ritual because of it though, especially if you romance Alistair. There's no clean way out of that - you gotta give up something, and trying to take the "perfect" option by recruiting Loghain and sacrificing him ends up costing you the thing you likely wanted to preserve the most.

 

Although, the Fade choice is another good example of you getting nothing but bad decisions (Well, unless you have Stroud, I guess.) 

 

 

Choosing to torture Solas? Oh, yeah. I mean, jeez, that's kinda screwed up. But it's also malice for malice's sake. There are people who choose to kill Solas - most of them, probably - who don't share in that particular fantasy. 

 

...I guess my position is less "You shouldn't have any negative consequences to your actions" and more "EVERYONE should have negative consequences to their actions, and choose their actions depending on what negatives they believe outweigh others."

 

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of "Every choice sucks, choose the one you think sucks the least" idea either.  Because that makes me feel like hey this is going to suck regardless, why bother?  I'll go play a game that doesn't make me feel like crap just for playing.

 

I think the Cole quest so far is one of the best in terms of giving you two options but neither option is "right".  Each one has pros and cons but it's not "both options suck".  Now it may turn out going forward that this choice has further consequences but as it stands right now it's fairly even.

[midnight tea]

Tbh whether people who chose to sacrifice the Chargers were indignant or not should be irrelevant.  Actions have consequences.  That's what many players have been demanding but then they get upset when actions have consequences?  You (not you in particular Ellawynn but the colloquial you) can't have it both ways.  Either player actions have consequences (some of which they may not like) or they don't.  It's not invalidating player choices or betraying their investment in the game when something happens that they don't like as a result of their own choices.  If that were the case then no player action would ever have negative consequences or in extreme cases the game would flat out ask you how you wanted things to go and it wouldn't matter what you chose to get there because you'd always get the end you wanted.  The Keep actually kind of does that, let's you carry whatever choices you want to the next game regardless of what you actually played through.  Bull betrayed you in Trespasser?  Doesn't matter, just go into the Keep and save the Chargers instead.

 

To use drinking from the Well of Sorrows as an example:  I'm fully expecting drinking from the Well to bite my Inquisitor in the butt going forward.  But I'll take what happens and deal with it.  If it means Solas dies?  That would suck big time.  But I'll finish the game and then play through with my character not drinking from the Well.  I have made both choices in DAI.  What would be disappointing and somewhat upsetting is if drinking from the Well had little to no impact at all on my Inquisitor.  I mean, if fighting/not fighting the spirits in Trespasser is the only consequence of the Well decision, that would be seriously disappointing.

 

TL;DR - Actions should have consequences.  They may even be negative.  Players may not like what happens.  That doesn't mean developers/writers should stop making players make decisions that might negatively impact them in the future of the story.

 

That's another reason to have well-defined consequences - replayability! After all titles like DA are all about replayability, simply to see different outcomes

[Uirebhiril]

TL;DR - Actions should have consequences.  They may even be negative.  Players may not like what happens.  That doesn't mean developers/writers should stop making players make decisions that might negatively impact them in the future of the story.

 

I agree there. Those who romanced or befriended Solas and want to redeem him are already set up for heartbreak and difficult choices one way or another. Being as I'll have at least one character who felt utterly betrayed by him, I want to have the same struggle on that end too. If you're going up against a god, if you are trying to kill someone you claim a monster -- and he may well be, sure -- then I want to see how I choose when I have to make tough decisions and weigh the consequences on just how much I want to achieve that. Not just cakewalk up to an immensely powerful being and run him through. Talk about boring.

[drosophila]

It was the despair demon. In the end I was in a truck with him trying to get away and ended up almost crashing. I just wanted to kiss Solas . I think I got a hug eventually but my dream-self had this big plan to kiss him sensually.. Don't tell my husband..

 

.

 

I just want to have a friendly convo with dream!Solas and he wouldn't even give me that. Last time he criticized me about posting such embarrassing thins on the thread. 

[FernRain]

I just want to have a friendly convo with dream!Solas and he wouldn't even give me that. Last time he criticized me about posting such embarrassing thins on the thread. 

 

If only we could lucid dream..

 

Well actually, then it could get out of hand pretty fast, ha.. .

[Cee]

If only we could lucid dream..

 

Well actually, then it could get out of hand pretty fast, ha.. .

 

I did a month or two ago and it managed to be about this forum.... we had a sort of headquarters and everything.

[midnight tea]

Considering the bald bastard's plan is nothing short of global genocide and the rending of the very fabric of reality? No.

 

That is some cthulhu level bullshit and it has to be stopped.

 

There is pretty much no line that the PC could presumably cross that would even NEAR the sheer arrogance to decide, I will literally end the world at a whim.

 

...What makes you think so? What if actually killing Solas or gaining power to kill him actually means something akin or maybe even worse than global genocide and rending of the very fabric of reality?

 

I mean, if you say that there's pretty much no line PC can cross in order to stop Solas, then you're really not much different from an arrogant bald bastard you intend to stop.

[Uirebhiril]

...What makes you think so? What if actually killing Solas or gaining power to kill him actually means something akin or maybe even worse than global genocide and rending of the very fabric of reality?

 

Well, if we want to be really technical about it, reality got rended when the Veil went up. So he'd be un-rending it to take it down. Right?

[jtav]

If I may...I don't have strong feelings about Solas' fate, but I do have strong feelings about chpice and consequence. Consequences, positive or negative, should be a logicak outgrowth of the choice, not by fiat of the writer. ME had a few choices that convinced me Shep was the luckiest person alive. It's also possible to have talked-about choices people feel strongly about without choosing among evils. Choosing among goods can be just as effective--witness how heated the debate over who should be Divine can be. I think DAI could've used more "bite" but I like the choice structure.

[drosophila]

If only we could lucid dream..

 

Well actually, then it could get out of hand pretty fast, ha.. .

 

Stuff I would do with Solas in the Fade if I could:

• Have discussions about wisdom, cause and effect, mistakes, and all that jazz. 
• Shake him up and be like, DUDE, WTF, YOU'RE A GOOD MAN BUT THAT PLAN SUCKS.
• Read him all my fanfics and request feedback on his character.
• Make slow arrow jokes, just to see him squirm. 
• Sit on his back and ask him to fly me around. I know, I know, it attracts demons, but you're the most powerful mage in Thedas, ATM, please, just once!
• Sit him in front of the Fade PS4, toss him the controller, and make him play DAI. He must collect ALL TEH SHARDS.

 

Come to think of it, I can see why he generally doesn't show up in my dreams

[Illyria]

This is a more common problem than you might think  Sure, I could have dumped Solas for Josie and had the cutest Disney Princess girl couple.  Or I could stay on the pain train until the bitter end because he's such a compelling character and I hate being happy 

 

My BFF's pro-Chantry, pro-Templar, "I am the Herald" Trevelyan still got to max approval with Solas.  So it's perfectly possible to romance him even if you totally disagree. 

 

I'm finally out of the hellpit and romancing Josie with my canon Lavellan.  It's going to be sweet and happy.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Stuff I would do with Solas in the Fade if I could:

• Have discussions about wisdom, cause and effect, mistakes, and all that jazz. 
• Shake him up and be like, DUDE, WTF, YOU'RE A GOOD MAN BUT THAT PLAN SUCKS.
• Read him all my fanfics and request feedback on his character.
• Make slow arrow jokes, just to see him squirm. 
• Sit on his back and ask him to fly me around. I know, I know, it attracts demons, but you're the most powerful mage in Thedas, ATM, please, just once!
• Sit him in front of the Fade PS4, toss him the controller, and make him play DAI. He must collect ALL TEH SHARDS.

 

Come to think of it, I can see why he generally doesn't show up in my dreams

 

Anders Syndrome. Such a sad affliction for a character that could do so much good with his knowledge and power.

 

What a waste. 

[Elessara]

Stuff I would do with Solas in the Fade if I could:

• Have discussions about wisdom, cause and effect, mistakes, and all that jazz. 
• Shake him up and be like, DUDE, WTF, YOU'RE A GOOD MAN BUT THAT PLAN SUCKS.
• Read him all my fanfics and request feedback on his character.
• Make slow arrow jokes, just to see him squirm. 
• Sit on his back and ask him to fly me around. I know, I know, it attracts demons, but you're the most powerful mage in Thedas, ATM, please, just once!
• Sit him in front of the Fade PS4, toss him the controller, and make him play DAI. He must collect ALL TEH SHARDS.

 

Come to think of it, I can see why he generally doesn't show up in my dreams

 

And gears in Descent.  Don't forget those damn gears.  And he has to get an 80+ score on the fireworks game in Trespasser.  And he has to sneak up behind the harlequinn 5 times as well.

[drosophila]

I'm finally out of the hellpit and romancing Josie with my canon Lavellan.  It's going to be sweet and happy.

 

Out of likes but excellent choice 

[Illyria]

Anders Syndrome. Such a sad affliction for a character that could done so much good. What a waste. 

 

Anders was a good character ruined by some bad writing, whereas Solas is a very well written character who makes terrible descions.  I guess Ned Stark Syndrome?

[drosophila]

And gears in Descent.  Don't forget those damn gears.  And he has to get an 80+ score on the fireworks game in Trespasser.  And he has to sneak up behind the harlequinn 5 times as well.

 

Gears are just shards to me, but yes, he must collect those too!

 

Oooh, forgot about the Harlequinn! I haven't even accomplished that in the game. 

[Elessara]

Gears are just shards to me, but yes, he must collect those too!

 

Oooh, forgot about the Harlequinn! I haven't even accomplished that in the game. 

 

 

I did ... twice.  Took forever both times.  Definitely a pita both times.  Do not ask me why I did it twice.  ><

[Garnet]

I've started watching Torchwood. Every. Time. Ianto speaks....I just... *melts into a puddle and cries*

(Actually it's mostly giggling because..just because. )

[Sable Rhapsody]

Out of likes but excellent choice

Out of likes but seconded